I just (finally) got through listening to the Fleshing at Sullust episode of Intensify Forward Firepower. Squadrons are dogged pretty hard on that podcast. Also, I'm seeing the How squadrons should have been thread on its seventh page - and it's just the latest thread in a long litany of similar threads.

You guys must really live in... wait, no, I'm in Oregon. I must really live in the alternate universe.

Where I'm at, squadrons are doing just fine. I took first in two of our Sullust events, with big fat Rhymer Balls of Fire. Squadrons were also well-represented in the top tier of those tournaments - including the squadrons of the filthy rebels (Lyraeus' 3xA+3xB list, and Iskander4000's Tycho+2xA+4xY being cases in point).

Sullust was also not an outlier. Rhymer's Balls have served me very well in the past and are responsible for three of my four tournament medals. Yes, I'm gloating - I'm an Imperial - but I'm not an Armada god. I've come in dead last in a tournament too - incidentally, when I didn't bring squadrons.

So, am I living in a parallel universe? Are Rhymer's Balls the exception to the rule? Or have the rest of you just not caught up to the fact that squadrons are actually pretty good?

For me, I think conceptually squadrons are good - but I'm still trying to learn how to fly them effectively. I'm also primarily an Imp player and I have tried the Rhymer ball with limited success, as well as used a 4 TIE Fighter/Interceptor squadron screen to limited success. But so far, I haven't got the hang of effectively using them in every game. Based on my local meta of limited squadron usage, I'd say other pilots are in the same boat.

Hoth-Gary sides with you.

All Ships do okay, but rarely place in top positions... Those go to multiple AFMK-II lists with Squadrons, and TIE (of all flavour) heavy Glad Squadrons.

At one of our smaller tournaments, all 6 players were going to be Imperial, so 10 minutes before Tournament Start I knocked up a BBXXYY Squadron List, and with No Practice (at all!) with Rebels, took 3rd.

There was no ALL-Ship Players at the Sentry Box's 12-Man Sullust event, either. I even fought against one Rebel player who had more Squadrons than I did... (XXXXYYYY)

I ran a squadron heavy build at the Sullust tournaments I went to. Ran into two fleets that had any squadrons, with a handful of other players having any. The vast majority of players at both tournaments didn't use any fighters at all, or just one or two squadrons. The winners I saw at both were ship only builds. Fighters are great, but they simply don't have the punch, or the rules in their favor, to be game winners. Bombers do, but they have to be used en masse, and at the price those start adding up to, another ship makes as much sense.

For me, I think conceptually squadrons are good - but I'm still trying to learn how to fly them effectively. I'm also primarily an Imp player and I have tried the Rhymer ball with limited success, as well as used a 4 TIE Fighter/Interceptor squadron screen to limited success. But so far, I haven't got the hang of effectively using them in every game. Based on my local meta of limited squadron usage, I'd say other pilots are in the same boat.

What problems have your Balls of Rhymer run into? Do your opponents bring just enough fighters to hold off the bombing runs, or do your opponents' ships just run around them?

Hoth-Gary sides with you.

It's good to know that Calgary is in the same parallel universe as Portland.

I'll follow on with some thoughts, as well...

What we were seeing in our Meta at the Sentry Box, was we were getting a Majority of Imperial players, who were Shying away from Squadrons. This concept built upon itself until we had almost an entire Meta of Imperial Ships.

I state with some pride, that I did a fair bit to kick that Meta in the Teeth.

People were thoroughly unprepared for Yavaris B-Wings. Thoroughly unprepared for Aggressive Bomber movements locking down where they could move to without issues. Thoroughly unprepared for Fighters willing to hang out in Obstacles and Asteroids to avoid being locked down by limited Fighter Cover, and then pouncing on Choice Targets.

It took me to get that ball rolling - I spent a lot of conceptual-time sitting down and watching how games were being played, as well as brainstorming myself, to work out how to utilise the assets I had - and then I set myself a 75% Squadron Limit, and worked my ships around that.

Our Meta is much more diverse now, over the past couple of months... GenCon Specials have given way to more mixed fleets, with Glads and Vics backing up fighters - Rhymer'd and without.

We were even finding that those who were going light on Squadrons were looking at Glad-IIs, AFMK-II-As and Neb-B Escorts over the 'cheaper' bretherin, due to the Anti-Squadron Dice being an assistance.

I ran a squadron heavy build at the Sullust tournaments I went to. Ran into two fleets that had any squadrons, with a handful of other players having any. The vast majority of players at both tournaments didn't use any fighters at all, or just one or two squadrons. The winners I saw at both were ship only builds. Fighters are great, but they simply don't have the punch, or the rules in their favor, to be game winners. Bombers do, but they have to be used en masse, and at the price those start adding up to, another ship makes as much sense.

Your local meta is weird, then. I play all ships myself, but I was knocked out of top 4 at Sullust by my cousin who runs squadron heavy. He won first overall, playing against an opponent who was a squadron heavy Imperial.

Squadrons can be great, all ships can be great. Your assessment about squadron weaknesses isn't particularly correct.

what I've noticed in my meta is that a lot of people have trouble balancing ships and squadrons

there's one guy with the Gen Con Special who made it to the final table in the tournie pre-sullest (where B-wings proved to be his bane) and at sullest (first place; didn't get to play him there ) and then there's like five who run VSD + GSD and a bunch of squadrons.

from sullest, I noticed only two other balanced builds in 3 VSD (guy likes his star destroyers) and 4 Tie Fighters, and Demolisher + 2 VSD + 4 Advance. And, of course, we all got matched against each other

They were easily the hardest matches I've had against any imperial player, because they could actually mitigate my B-wings I thought they'd be easy because, hey, uncontested B-wings just rub their bellies at the thought of free GSDs, but with enemy squadrons in the mix things get more complicated.

seems four is the magic number for 300 points, as it gives you some robust capability while also allowing for at least 3 ships to check the activation advantage of all-ship builds. At 400 I have no idea, but I'm running a personal minimum of 4 ships and ideally 5. so far, there's room leftover to add Jan Ors to my four Bs

then again, I play rebels and B-wings are the only source of significant close-range damage (they're also the highest source of damage period, with Yavaris). Rhymer bombers don't pack nearly the same punch, but they got range. Given the Wave 1 boogieman is the close range GSD, it makes sense some people don't find them powerful enough.

Wait till wave 2, you're going to want to reach for some imperial bombers when Akbar comes a'knocking

For me, I think conceptually squadrons are good - but I'm still trying to learn how to fly them effectively....

This is what I think a large part of the problem is. Squadrons take a lot more to use effectively. You have to know when to issue squadron commands, you have to plan on where the enemy will be a turn (sometimes more) in advance so you can make sure your squadrons will be in range. There is a lot more planning that goes into using squadrons effectively.

I think with wave 2 though, all ship builds will be a lot harder to effectively use.

UGH! I've searched and searched; can someone please tell me what the Gencon Special is!!?!?

UGH! I've searched and searched; can someone please tell me what the Gencon Special is!!?!?

I cant remember exact setup, but I think it was 4 GSD1s all with ACMs and screed, one was a demolisher as well.

UGH! I've searched and searched; can someone please tell me what the Gencon Special is!!?!?

Skreed on a VSD-1

3 GSD-1s with ACM

one is Demolisher

no squadrons. Steamroll enemy ships. Wipe enemy fleets for big m.o.v lead. Cross fingers no B-wings. Victory?

it's the "Tie Swarm" of Armada, you stack efficiency and speed over fancy gimmicks and heavily upgraded ships

UGH! I've searched and searched; can someone please tell me what the Gencon Special is!!?!?

Skreed on an ACM VSD

3 GSDs with ACM

one is Demolisher

no squadrons. Steamroll enemy ships. Wipe enemy fleets for big m.o.v lead. Cross fingers no B-wings. Victory?

Dangit, forgot he did have 1 vsd in there.....well I was close lol

Thank you for your honesty! This is where the disatisfaction with squadrons comes from, the Learning Curve.

Went to top table in 4 separate Sullust events with a CR-90, 2 AF MkIIs, and 4 B-Wings. Squadrons are fine.

Our first tournament, the winner had 60 points of TIE and the second place took 100 points worth of Rhymer ball. The next tournament, the winner had 6 TIE ln, with second place going to the guy with 3 A-wings.

All ship builds have shown up, but haven't placed in the top two yet.

@Ken-Obi

Thank you for your honesty! This is where the disatisfaction with squadrons comes from, the Learning Curve.

largely agree here

that, and the fact that the current stock of imperial bombers are not really suited for what everyone seems to be in love with (GSDs). Given their slowness, VSDs also aren't terribly effective yet (need tractor beams!) which leaves...GSDs

don't get me wrong, Bombers will murder a GSD just fine with a bit of support, but they're no Yavaris B-wings which just pop GSDs in one activation

which is why I say "Beware akbar" which is going to flip the dynamic on its head (poor slow B-wings huffing and puffing to try and cut off Afmk2s; Rhymer having a jolly good time flinging torps at medium range + speed 4)

UGH! I've searched and searched; can someone please tell me what the Gencon Special is!!?!?

I cant remember exact setup, but I think it was 4 GSD1s all with ACMs and screed, one was a demolisher as well.

Close, 1 Vic skreed and 3 glads ACM

I think part of the issue with squadrons' placement and movement comes from the many of us who came off the heels of playing lots of X Wing.

In X Wing, predicting where your enemy's ships are going to be can be very hard. Most ships (in X Wing) have most manuevers available to them. Thus, they could be anywhere on the table, and if you didn't predict/forsee where your enemy was going to be, you could either be in an ugly pickle, or possibly just miss opportunities. Indeed, the entire game is built around this mechanic.

It took me a few games of Armada to realize that, despite being able to adjust the maneuver tool on the go, that Armada ships simply don't have that many options available to them. A rebel player with squadrons should have no problems predicting where a Victory class SD is going to be, even in late game turns, due to it's very limited speed and maneuver options. And while a gladiator has much more available in terms of speed and yaw values, the attack is limited to black dice, which means you should be able to reasonably predict where its going to be. The ISD's footprint is just huge, and even though it is speedier, its powerful front arc telecasts its movement (or else it is wasted). And the raider...well you probably don't want your fighters anywhere near the raider :-)

Btw, thanks for the responses on the Gencon Special.

What we were seeing in our Meta at the Sentry Box, was we were getting a Majority of Imperial players, who were Shying away from Squadrons.

This is what I call the objective meta vs. the intersubjective meta.

The objective meta is the relative effectiveness of pieces based on the actual game pieces available. The intersubjective meta is the relative effectiveness of pieces based on people's perceptions and use of them. The objective meta changes when we get a new wave of ships. The subjective meta can shift whenever enough people change their minds and start playing differently. The objective meta should be the same in every locale that has all expansions available to it, whereas the intersubjective meta can be different per Armada gaming community.

what I've noticed in my meta is that a lot of people have trouble balancing ships and squadrons

Balance? An Imperial craves not these things.

When I Rhymer Ball, I Rhymer Ball. Rhymer, 5xTIE Bomber, Vader, Soontir = 100 points. And then toss some Expanded Hangars onto my VSDs to pump another 10 points into squadrons. That's not balance, except in the sense that I'm balancing against the probability that my opponent is going to have a few A-wings that try to tie up the Ball by bringing Vader and Soontir.

For me, I think conceptually squadrons are good - but I'm still trying to learn how to fly them effectively....

This is what I think a large part of the problem is. Squadrons take a lot more to use effectively. You have to know when to issue squadron commands, you have to plan on where the enemy will be a turn (sometimes more) in advance so you can make sure your squadrons will be in range. There is a lot more planning that goes into using squadrons effectively.

I'm not so sure they're all that difficult to use - they just work differently than ships do and you have to wrap your mind around how squadrons work, but all-in-all, it's less complex than figuring out how to drive your ships.

Agreed. Ships and squadrons have different learning curves. With ships you need to be able to predict where your opponent is going. But if you fail in that, you give up only a portion of your offensive power (unless your a close-gun ship, like GSD). With squadrons, you also need to be able to know where your opponet is going. But if you are wrong, you give up your entire offense (unless you're spamming squadron commands, of course). Squadrons make up for this, of course, with jack-rabbit manueverability and a lot of gnerosity with respect to their speed.

That being said, there are other uses for squadrons, such as telling a GSD "Don't end up here or you'll regret it." That, in and of itself, has great value.

My experience is a little lopsided because I've been playing KushielRDF a LOT and only played some of my other local players once or twice, but I find squadrons tend to come in only three varieties:

1) Rhymer ball. I actually hate this mechanic, not because it's OP or broken or anything, I feel it's quite reasonable. But I'm sick to death of it.

2) Minimal investment for countering point 1. This covers the three A-wings I brought with me for Sullust, and aside from one game where they murdered a Neb-B they were basically free points for my opponents.

3) Point Filler. Usually to the tune of half a dozen TIEs, because the 40 points isn't needed for upgrades and won't get another GSD.

As a rebel I find the 'squadron game' to be just generally unfulfilling and frustrating. Our Aces seem intended to be powerful fighters on their own, and although our vanilla fighters are decent stats, the points just don't lend themselves well to 'spamming'. A lack of interesting group mechanics like Howlrunner or Rhymer means we rely on point heavy ship combos like Yavaris and Adar Tallon. So it could very well be that I'm just not 'getting it' when it comes to squadrons, but honestly they're just not that much fun.

My experience is a little lopsided because I've been playing KushielRDF a LOT and only played some of my other local players once or twice, but I find squadrons tend to come in only three varieties:

1) Rhymer ball. I actually hate this mechanic, not because it's OP or broken or anything, I feel it's quite reasonable. But I'm sick to death of it.

There are Rebel bomber balls as well, they just don't have Rhymer, and Rhymer really makes the bombers so much more effective.

I do understand what you're saying, though. As they've also said on IFF, Rhymer is such an auto-include and such a powerful addition to your fleet, that this single character alone shapes the nature of the game. It's somewhat ironic because he's a bit of a dud in X-Wing, where his ability is individual, rather than cooperative with friendlies.

I'm not yet sure what R&V is going to do to the squadrons game. It's not really attracted me, because I'm with Admiral Piett on my appreciation of bounty hunters. ("We don't need that scum."). What little I know about what R&V has in it does not strike me as game-changing.

I find squadrons highly effective. However, locally I have placed first at 4 tournaments using zero squadron builds.

The reason for this is the godawful scoring system. Squadrons are effective, and powerful. However, I find it's very easy to kill 200pts of capital ships, and by doing so I score a full 300 points as if by magic. Fighters are virtually worthless for me, and after some early beatings I'm good at avoiding b-wings. The only major threat is full Rhymer bomber balls...those hurt. So far I have been able to still kill the 200pts of caps before my 300 go down though (however, this is the only list type I struggle to get good margins against).

I love using fighters, and they are good....but I find the scoring a major issue, and until I start losing to heavy fighter lists I'll continue not using them in tournaments. That might well be very soon with wave 2 though....