In fact, Dev response (or lack thereof) is why I don't like 4th Edition. Too many "do it your way" answers to questions, and not enough actual information given to players and GMs who need it.

Everyone who says it's wrong to make a customer base rely on years and years of old information from a variety of sources is right to complain, and AEG was wrong to do it that way, and if/when FFG puts out it's version of the RPG, I sincerely hope they realize this and dedicate enough space to cover what needs to be covered.

I have to agree with this, I remember when I used to follow that forum and it was "easier" to get some answers from the story team than the dev team... It's kinda sad. Maybe it was a decision from their directors, but it was something bad by only saying: "Do it your way". I may understand why though, but it could have been done. I think they thought the "Do it your way" would prevents some dev to tell wrong information, but they could have talked to themselves and come up with the information. As you said, if FFG puts out their version of the RPG, it needs a space to cover those questions, it's something that's call... humm.. customer service?

Now as the "Buff your allies being a breach of etiquette", I tend to disagree, depending on the situation of course. If it's in a duel, yes, a breach of etiquette without a doubt, the fact that you get some help breaks the fact that it's a duel. In a court, since I see the spells as the weapon of the Shugenja and weapons aren't allowed in court, so yes, to me, it is a breach of etiquette, not to mention that the entire Soshi Shugenja are based on this. Otherwise, I don't see why it would be bad to do so.

Why would an Isawa loses honor for buffing up his Shiba Bushi? Why would the Asahina Shugenja loses honor for casting defensive spells on his allies (the whole school is based on this... and arts)? Why would a Kitsu loses honor for casting battle spells on their allies (they are based on battle support magic and the stories also back this up)? Outside of a duel, it's not a breach of etiquette. I would agree if they would be Shugenja in low honor Clans, but they are in the most honorable Clans. If we want to put 2 and 2 together, I don't see why they would be that honorable if it was a breach of etiquette.

The only thing I really wonder is, if a Shugenja casts a spell on someone secretly, a buff spell, does the target is aware that he's affected by an enhancing spell? For example, a Soshi Shugenja cast a reflex buff on a Bushi going into a duel and the Soshi used everything to make sure the spells got cast without any signs of spellcasting. Does the Bushi will know he is buffed? I'm asking this because if the Bushi wants to be as honorable as possible, he would probably say to post-pone the duel since he's under a spells that affect his abilities. That, I'm not sure.

People are ignoring the second half of my post when discussing the "buffing combat allies," and it's creating some problems.

Yes, aiding your ally in honorable combat is a failure of bushido.

However , the same guy who created bushido also created a treatise on war, and in it he says everything is fair game in a fight.

So the default assumption is that it's fine because Leadership says so. However, you can make a big deal out of it if you choose, because it is still a failure of certain tenets of bushido.

Also, again, whom your opponent is has a lot to do with it too. If the Lost samurai/criminal scum/etc. wants to complain because you and your shugenja buddy "cheated," the correct response is to cut him down, not feel guilty.

If your honorable samurai foe from another clan wants to complain because you and your shugenja buddy "cheated," the correct response is to laugh him off and quote Akodo-kami.

If you're a shugenja and you buff your buddy and he gets really upset at this because you showed him extreme discourtesy by insinuating that he could not defeat his foe without your magical help, he has justification for that too.

A large portion of the honorable vs dishonorable notion of applying buffs is HOW you go about applying the buff. Are you being sneaky about it, and using that spell casting emphasis in Stealth? Dishonorable. Do you pull out your scroll, clearly enunciate your prayers, and perform the blessing properly before your bushi marches to war? Honorable.

However , the same guy who created bushido also created a treatise on war, and in it he says everything is fair game in a fight.

Without wanting to take this thread too far off topic- I see this a lot, and I always have to disagree.

Leadership does indeed say, "On the battlefield, all actions are honourable". I grant that "everything is fair game in a fight" is one interpretation of that quote, but there are plenty of others- for instance, the statement could be aspirational, describing how things s hould be, as some other parts of Leadership clearly are. Alternatively, the meaning could be that actions are more glorious and honourable if performed on the battlefield than they would be if performed at home or in private- that is to say, combat/the battlefield is in some sense a crucible for testing the honour of samurai, and demonstrations of worth are therefore more valuable there than elsewhere.

Is that stretching of the words of the text? Yes, but it's no less reasonable to make a leap of textual analysis than it is to assume that Akodo-Kami would deliberately include carte blanche for dishonourable conduct in warfare in his most famous text, which otherwise reinforces fairly consistently the importance and value of honourable behaviour.

It's also worth noting that the parts of Leadership which appear to endorse dishonourable behaviour (though, again, I would tend to believe that that's due to a failure of interpretation, and/or willful misreading, than Akodo-Kami deliberately advise dishonour) were excised by the orders of an early Emperor, and only the Ikoma still have access to uncensored versions. If we're choosing to read "On the battlefield, all actions are honourable" as endorsing dishonourable conduct, it would undoubtedly have been excised, in which case you either don't know it in the first place, or can be readily contradicted by anyone with access to a standard copy of the text, which is many people, and pretty much all Lion. Really, I can't see anyone getting away with suggesting that Akodo-Kami recommended/advised dishonourable conduct in front of a Lion without a challenge, at the minimum.

With that aside out of the way- I'm not aware of any suggestion that helping bushi is out of bounds for shugenja, in normal warfare. Buffing a duelist is definitely considered wrongbad. I have a strong feeling that calling on the kami in formal sessions of court is dishonourable, but I cannot provide a source for that at the moment. The pacifism of the Phoenix is not predicated solely, or even primarily, on a wariness of letting loose their shugenja- the Battle of the Broken Daisho, perhaps the most vivid illustration of the Phoenix dedication to peace, had nothing to do with shugenja at all on any side, and the Phoenix have in fact fought multiple wars with the Lion precisely in support of the view that shugenja can and should fight. I will search for sources for cultural restrictions on shugenja using their talent in court, though.

Something I've been meaning to bring up.

To me, there's a contradiction between the concept that people are randomly born with the inherent ability to talk to the elemental kami, and the concept that this form of invoking magical effects didn't exist before Isawa and Shinsei.

Is this ever explicitly resolved?

(E: and yes, both things are VERY clearly stated in the 4th Ed RPG books, in several places, sometimes on the same page of the same book.)

That would make it far more believable that they aren't just completely shunned at this point.

Reading through the 4th Ed books and the old forums and these forums and the Wiki, it all makes them out to be just shy of pathological. The text for every school and every technique and every family makes them all out to be nothing but inveterate and compulsive deceivers, blackmailers, and manipulators -- and that talking to a Scorpion is a guarantee that you have no secrets left.

Maybe it's the writing style of the RPG books that does this -- I have a hard time telling when they're being objective, and when they're subjectively channeling, say, a clan's self-image. The superlatives and hyperbole get old.

My vision is that all of the Scorpion appear to be just normal-ass guys, and for almost all of them, this perception is accurate. All that talk about how Scorpion are maser decievers and know all this evil wisdom of lies, etc etc etc, gets most people to just roll their eyes because they know Scorpion friends, and none of them are like that. This whole "Clan of decievers" shtick is, for them more like an elaborate injoke, a shared fiction about how cool they pretend to be. The kind of thing that makes Doji Steve say "Ooh, I better watch out, you'll slip poison into my drink!" in a joking manner when sharing a drink with Bayushi Ted. And, again, for almost all of them, this perception is accurate.

I read a description of the Bayushi gempukku, which is a ceremony anyone can attend, and involves doing Standard Samurai Things. Then, that night, they hold the real gempukku trial, and it's not about how well you can lie or poison people, it's "Describe, in as much detail as you can, everyone who attended the fake trial." Their training isn't about being a deceiver, it's about being able to notice information in case it is useful. I find it most likely that the Scorpion are not a Clan of pathological liars who go about lying all the time, they are a Clan of people who are told "Some day -- and this day may never come -- we may call upon you to do something that honor finds questionable, but is in our best interests. Until such time, just try to pay attention to what's going on around you and tell us if you see something really cool, be a normal samurai, and try to avoid spilling gravy on yourself."

Anything more, and the Scorpion would not only not be worth trusting, they'd just be exhausting to be around, and exhausting to BE.

I hope FFG reads your comment and Mickle5125's before they do any writing on the Scorpion.

One of the people I knew in college turned out to be a pathological liar (and fancied himself a master manipulator), and eventually everyone I know stopped having anything to do with him, because it became obvious over time that anything coming out of his mouth had a 50/50 chance of being untrue and he was always looking for an angle.

In trying so hard to build up the image of the Scorpion within that "master of secrets and manipulation" archetype, the various L5R materials have made them into "that guy".

The only thing I really wonder is, if a Shugenja casts a spell on someone secretly, a buff spell, does the target is aware that he's affected by an enhancing spell? For example, a Soshi Shugenja cast a reflex buff on a Bushi going into a duel and the Soshi used everything to make sure the spells got cast without any signs of spellcasting. Does the Bushi will know he is buffed? I'm asking this because if the Bushi wants to be as honorable as possible, he would probably say to post-pone the duel since he's under a spells that affect his abilities. That, I'm not sure.

Yeah, the rules are pretty nebulous on that. I would probably call for a raw trait check to determine if the bushi notices anything. Perception would work, but I tend to favor Intelligence in cases like these because otherwise it tends to be rarely used.

So the default assumption is that it's fine because Leadership says so. However, you can make a big deal out of it if you choose, because it is still a failure of certain tenets of bushido.

Which tenets of bushido exactly?

I'd like to note that self-sufficiency isn't a tenet of bushido. Akodo was not Ayn Rand. Heck, if anything, accepting help allows you to better fulfill your Duty, and thus is honorable.

Something I've been meaning to bring up.

To me, there's a contradiction between the concept that people are randomly born with the inherent ability to talk to the elemental kami, and the concept that this form of invoking magical effects didn't exist before Isawa and Shinsei.

Is this ever explicitly resolved?

(E: and yes, both things are VERY clearly stated in the 4th Ed RPG books, in several places, sometimes on the same page of the same book.)

My own interpretation is that the kami could always talk with humans (or at least a certain subset), they just found us too weird and boring to bother with. Isawa, Kuni, and a couple others managed to get their attention, and the kami have been talking with their descendants ever since.

I hope FFG reads your comment and Mickle5125's before they do any writing on the Scorpion.

*blush*

So the default assumption is that it's fine because Leadership says so. However, you can make a big deal out of it if you choose, because it is still a failure of certain tenets of bushido.

Which tenets of bushido exactly?

Courtesy. Employing such a limited advantage like magic against an opponent isn't very respectful. However, said opponent might actually allow if his skills are superior (in this case magic serves as an equalizer) - or even demand such thing if the character is truly inferior.

Why is employing magic more disrespectful than employing superior numbers? Or heavier armor? Or a superior tactical position?

Why is employing magic more disrespectful than employing superior numbers? Or heavier armor? Or a superior tactical position?

Or... arrows.

Why is employing magic more disrespectful than employing superior numbers? Or heavier armor? Or a superior tactical position?

Or... arrows.

Literally anyone can rely on these things. These advantages are (or at least should be) available for everyone. Their abundance also allow the opponent to counter them more readily - everyone knows (or at least should know) what to do against superior numbers/superior equipment/superior tactics. Magic, on the other hand, is extremely rare and very poorly understood.

Why is employing magic more disrespectful than employing superior numbers? Or heavier armor? Or a superior tactical position?

Or... arrows.

Literally anyone can rely on these things. These advantages are (or at least should be) available for everyone. Their abundance also allow the opponent to counter them more readily - everyone knows (or at least should know) what to do against superior numbers/superior equipment/superior tactics. Magic, on the other hand, is extremely rare and very poorly understood.

I think most commanders in Rokugan understand that if the enemy trots out shugenja, you have any shugenja of your own defend against it, your archers fire and the guys chanting first, etc.

Why is employing magic more disrespectful than employing superior numbers? Or heavier armor? Or a superior tactical position?

Or... arrows.

Literally anyone can rely on these things. These advantages are (or at least should be) available for everyone. Their abundance also allow the opponent to counter them more readily - everyone knows (or at least should know) what to do against superior numbers/superior equipment/superior tactics. Magic, on the other hand, is extremely rare and very poorly understood.

I think most commanders in Rokugan understand that if the enemy trots out shugenja, you have any shugenja of your own defend against it, your archers fire and the guys chanting first, etc.

This isn't really that simple. Shugenja do not directly counter other Shugenja, in fact the various Shugenja of the two sides can cast spells beside each other during the whole battle without even scratching the other (chances are high for this if both Shugenja groups use the same element). This can even backfire horribly if the Shugenja go trigger-happy with their magic and completely rearrange the battlefield in ways the poor commander couldn't even imagine. The same goes with arrows (or any other mundane solution-like idea), they might or might not work against the enemy Shugenja.

Of course, problems like this only happen if the commander can actually muster battle-ready Shugenja. Shugenja don't grow on trees and for most commanders, they are mostly unavailable.

As a comparison, the Shugneja has the same problems as nuclear weapons IRL. If, say, French and Germany would go to war against each other again, then French deploying nukes against Germany would be a rather disreputable act as Germany does not have nuclear weapons or anti-nuclear defense systems (neither they have a real chance to acquire any of these) - even though other than the nukes, the two countries are compatible in terms of military strength.

Why is employing magic more disrespectful than employing superior numbers? Or heavier armor? Or a superior tactical position?

Or... arrows.

Literally anyone can rely on these things. These advantages are (or at least should be) available for everyone. Their abundance also allow the opponent to counter them more readily - everyone knows (or at least should know) what to do against superior numbers/superior equipment/superior tactics. Magic, on the other hand, is extremely rare and very poorly understood.

I think most commanders in Rokugan understand that if the enemy trots out shugenja, you have any shugenja of your own defend against it, your archers fire and the guys chanting first, etc.

This isn't really that simple. Shugenja do not directly counter other Shugenja, in fact the various Shugenja of the two sides can cast spells beside each other during the whole battle without even scratching the other (chances are high for this if both Shugenja groups use the same element). This can even backfire horribly if the Shugenja go trigger-happy with their magic and completely rearrange the battlefield in ways the poor commander couldn't even imagine. The same goes with arrows (or any other mundane solution-like idea), they might or might not work against the enemy Shugenja.

Of course, problems like this only happen if the commander can actually muster battle-ready Shugenja. Shugenja don't grow on trees and for most commanders, they are mostly unavailable.

As a comparison, the Shugneja has the same problems as nuclear weapons IRL. If, say, French and Germany would go to war against each other again, then French deploying nukes against Germany would be a rather disreputable act as Germany does not have nuclear weapons or anti-nuclear defense systems (neither they have a real chance to acquire any of these) - even though other than the nukes, the two countries are compatible in terms of military strength.

I thought counter-spelling was a thing, detailed in one of the elemental books.

If enemy Shugenja are defending themselves against arrow fire or whatever, then they're not using those "spell slots" against your troops.

The subject was a discussion of when and where Shugenja in combat, including buffs to their own side of a conflict, are considered honorable or dishonorable -- which sort of presupposes that at least one of the commanders has in fact mustered battle-ready Shugenja.

Why is employing magic more disrespectful than employing superior numbers? Or heavier armor? Or a superior tactical position?

Or... arrows.

Literally anyone can rely on these things.

Not exactly. Take the Lion-Phoenix war that Idanthyrsus brought up before. The Phoenix have no hope of being able to muster as many troops as the Lion. The only thing they have that can counter that advantage is magic. The Phoenix use that advantage in pretty much every war they fight, and yet they're still considered one of the more honorable clans.

Their abundance also allow the opponent to counter them more readily - everyone knows (or at least should know) what to do against superior numbers/superior equipment/superior tactics. Magic, on the other hand, is extremely rare and very poorly understood.

I disagree that everyone ought to know how to counter superior numbers and equipment, if they were that easily countered there would be no point in using them.

It's the superior tactics thing that really doesn't make sense to me, though. It's impossible to learn counters to superior tactics, because if you know how to counter your opponent's tactics, they weren't superior. Good tactics are also rare and poorly understood, because if they weren't, everyone would be using them and they wouldn't be good tactics anymore.

So I'm still not seeing the difference between using a clever tactical trick and a clever magical trick.

Also, I disagree with your fundamental premise that only advantages that are easily countered are honorable. Giving your opponent a chance to counter everything you do isn't honorable, it's just dumb. "Fairness" isn't a tenet of bushido, after all.

the Battle of the Broken Daisho, perhaps the most vivid illustration of the Phoenix dedication to peace, had nothing to do with shugenja at all on any side

Correction: The Shiba teleported into the Battle of the Broken Daisho. They didn't just march in, and they definitely used some magic to get there.

They also pointedly left their shugenja at home, because getting slaughtered en masse to prove a point would presumably have used up too many rare and valuable shugenja- and also, in my opinion, because the presence of shugenja in their military formation might very well have made them seem a legitimate threat whether the Shiba drew steel or not.

I disagree that everyone ought to know how to counter superior numbers and equipment, if they were that easily countered there would be no point in using them.

They should know. And they are indeed pointless if the other side has at least a spark of competency - and competency walks hand-in-hand with honor.

Advantages are useful even if they are easily countered. In this case, the commander must strive to exploit them as long as possible while bring his own counters into play as quickly as he can. This is pretty much Warfare 101 - whoever can deploy his advantages and the counters to his enemy's advantages (and/or counter the enemy counters) will inevitably win the battle. Then you have the Shugenja and their magic who pretty much break the tactical rock-paper-scissors and degrade the battle into a game of "Who has more spell slots?"

And I'm pretty sure that the tenets of Courtesy and Honesty cover 'fairness' .

According to Masters of War, the Lion have four armies to the Phoenix's one. Do you really think 4-to-1 odds are trivial with "at least a spark of competency"? And let's not forget, the Lion aren't exactly incompetent themselves, their strategy is at least equal to that of the Phoenix, and possibly a lot better.

I just looked over the 3rd ed and 4th ed descriptions of Courtesy and Honesty, and neither one mentions "fairness", "sportsmanship", or any related term. They cover exactly what it sounds like, being polite and being truthful. You can stomp all over your opponent as much as you want with one-sided battles, and as long as you don't insult or lie to him, you're cool with those two virtues.

I suppose eventually you might start running into problems with Compassion, but few samurai seem to apply that one to their enemies. Probably because that would usually conflict with Duty.

According to Masters of War, the Lion have four armies to the Phoenix's one. Do you really think 4-to-1 odds are trivial with "at least a spark of competency"? And let's not forget, the Lion aren't exactly incompetent themselves, their strategy is at least equal to that of the Phoenix, and possibly a lot better.

Well, the Battle of Watling Street saw the Romans win against some 10:1 odds. Or, for a more in-theme example, the Battle of Okehazama.

Also, from the rulebook:

"A samurai is courteous even to his enemies. Without this outward show of respect, we are nothing more than animals. A samurai is not only respected for his strength in battle, but also by his dealings with other men." and "Be acutely honest throughout your dealings with all people." - as far as my thesaurus tells me, 'courteous' and 'honest' are synonyms of 'fair'.

And I'm pretty sure that the tenets of Courtesy and Honesty cover 'fairness' .

These events happened on the 17th day of the month of Togashi, in the year 1347.

Shiba Jon: (bowing deeply) Hello mighty rikugunshokan of the 5th Lion Army, Akodo An. Did you have rice today?

Akodo An: (bowing deeply too) Greetings, Shiba Jon, Daimyo of the Phoenix Clan. I did have rice on this pleasant day. What about you?

Shiba Jon: Many thanks for your concern, I did have rice too, and you are quite right saying the weather is nice, one would not to be outside if it was not the case.

Akodo An: Indeed, and that is even more just given the sheer number of people gathered on this plain today.

Shiba Jon: Quite so, I am not even sure I can see the entirety of your army and its two legions.

Akodo An: Actually there is are three legions at my command at the moment, but that even nothing compared to an entire Clan.

Shiba Jon: You flatter me, you know full well that the whole Clan is not here, only its most formidable elements.

Akodo An: I expected nothing less of you, Shiba-sama.

Shiba Jon: One would be terribly foolish in underestimating one's enemy, especially if that enemy is the mighty Lion.

Akodo An: Even the mighty Lion takes caution before the wrath of the elements.

Shiba Jon: However, one can not expect the powerful Lion to back down, can one?

Akodo An: I am afraid you are, as always right, Shiba-sama, one can not do so, indeed.

Shiba Jon: Shall we proceed then, Akodo-sama?

Akodo An: Let us do so, Shiba-sama.

They then both walked away from each other, towards their respective tent. The battle would start soon, and everyone will be giving everything they have, nothing will be held back.

AtoMaki, here you have two generals courteously discussing together before a battle. They are both being honest with one another in stating what they have in their ranks, because Bushido asks for it but also because one may back down and the battle would be won without bloodshed. However, it will not happen like this both sides are going all in, because Duty asks for it. They are fair, but they are still going full speed at it.

It's very important to remember bushido are tenets that apply to a people - a people who are incredibly concerned with appearances and earning personal glory.

Where is the glory in winning a fight 2-to-1?

It's also important to remember that the descriptions for bushido's tenets are not as western in philosophy as one would assume. For example, killing your enemy is courteous because it spares him the shame of defeat.

I hope FFG reads your comment and Mickle5125's before they do any writing on the Scorpion.

One of the people I knew in college turned out to be a pathological liar (and fancied himself a master manipulator), and eventually everyone I know stopped having anything to do with him, because it became obvious over time that anything coming out of his mouth had a 50/50 chance of being untrue and he was always looking for an angle.

In trying so hard to build up the image of the Scorpion within that "master of secrets and manipulation" archetype, the various L5R materials have made them into "that guy".

While yes, they are a clan of liars and manipulators, those things are tools - not pathologies.

Dude, no part of Bushido, be it Courtesy, Honesty, or anything else, requires you to inform your opponent in a war of where you have placed all your troops and what you intend to do with them during the fight. Nor does it require you to equalize your numbers, position, equipment, tactical acumen, or anything else with that of your opponent, lest you be seen as "dishonorable." We have a bunch of statements on why shugenja don't participate in war: it has to do with avoiding worldly entanglements, showing respect to the kami, and not risking their very valuable necks, not because their magic counts as cheating under the principles of Bushido. This entire argument has no basis in the text: you're free to interpret it that way if you want, but it isn't canon.

If you have citations to the contrary, then share them.

the Battle of the Broken Daisho, perhaps the most vivid illustration of the Phoenix dedication to peace, had nothing to do with shugenja at all on any side

Correction: The Shiba teleported into the Battle of the Broken Daisho. They didn't just march in, and they definitely used some magic to get there.

They also pointedly left their shugenja at home, because getting slaughtered en masse to prove a point would presumably have used up too many rare and valuable shugenja- and also, in my opinion, because the presence of shugenja in their military formation might very well have made them seem a legitimate threat whether the Shiba drew steel or not.

Granted- but the point isn't that magic was used. The point is that Toriiko and the Shiba gave their lives for the principle of pacifism, and whether or not shugenja were involved in their arrival, their commitment to peace stood alone. It had nothing to do with any qualms the Phoenix might have about letting their shugenja loose (as was suggested earlier in this thread, though I admit that my point would have been clearer if I'd quoted it directly).

According to Masters of War, the Lion have four armies to the Phoenix's one. Do you really think 4-to-1 odds are trivial with "at least a spark of competency"? And let's not forget, the Lion aren't exactly incompetent themselves, their strategy is at least equal to that of the Phoenix, and possibly a lot better.

Well, the Battle of Watling Street saw the Romans win against some 10:1 odds. Or, for a more in-theme example, the Battle of Okehazama.

Also, from the rulebook:

"A samurai is courteous even to his enemies. Without this outward show of respect, we are nothing more than animals. A samurai is not only respected for his strength in battle, but also by his dealings with other men." and "Be acutely honest throughout your dealings with all people." - as far as my thesaurus tells me, 'courteous' and 'honest' are synonyms of 'fair'.

Well, that's not right. If they're both synonyms of "fair", then they're also synonyms of each other, which means that they're entirely redundant.

Actually, just for the fun of it, let's take this thesaurus thing to its logical conclusion. According to thesaurus.com, " fair " is synonymous with " courteous " and " honest ", and also some other weird stuff, like "clean", "pious", "generous", "benevolent", "trustworthy", and " honorable ". " Trustworthy " is also synonymous with " sincere ". " Benevolent " is also synonymous with " compassionate " and "chivalrous", and " chivalrous " is also synonymous with " courageous ".

So there you go! According to this thesaurus, six of the seven tenets of bushido all mean the same thing. If I kept trying I could probably work Duty into there too, but I think you get the point. Thesauri tend to take the definition of "synonym" as loosely as they can, just to add bulk. It's best not to take them too seriously.

Here's the definition of "fair", according to Mirriam Webster:

(Actually, there are a lot of definitions of "fair", but this is the relevant one)

treating people in a way that does not favor some over others

Here are "honest" and "courteous":

not hiding the truth about someone or something : not meant to deceive someone

very polite in a way that shows respect

So they clearly all have different meanings.

Regarding those two battles, those were disciplined, crack troops led by excellent commanders, against undisciplined mobs whose commanders made severe strategic blunders. The Romans also had vastly superior equipment, and Oda Nobunaga used tactics that would be considered incredibly dishonorable in Rokugan.

Even so, if those battles were typical, you still might have a point. But those battles are only remembered after so long because they were fluke victories that no one expected. Holding them up to show that numbers don't matter is really disingenuous.

Edit: Misspelled Nobunaga's name.