So while I absolutely love playing a shugenja I will be one of the first to admit they can be severely overpowered, specifically in versatility, there is no way a courtier or bushi can hope to be relevant to as many situations as a well-rounded shugenja .

This is the point a lot of people have been making. And it is true. They are very powerful, and spells are very powerful.

The problem I have with it is this. Why does everything need to be around the same power level? There is an assumption that this is how it should be, and I think it is a thought process/mentality that comes from things like video games and card games. RPG's are very much separate from these and shouldn't necessarily follow the same rules of balance.

To me it would make absolutely no sense at all, if Shugenja were on the same power level of bushi. They can control the elements, alter reality etc. They are not wizards per se but they can call on favours from the spirits that make up the world of Rokugan. How can, and why should, a bushi be at the same power level as a character that can do that?

I understand there are people who get different things out of RPG's. And I have all different kinds of gamer in my group. We pretty much have always acknowledged that shugs are really powerful. All it meant is that you have to find ways around them. It's hard to face a fire/earth shug in combat, so you just need to find a way around him. Alter his scrolls, poison him, call him out in a duel, there are hundreds of ways around it!

I've also never played in a party that had more than 2 shugs (and 2 was a rarity), people usually play what they like in an rpg rather than what's OP (although we all know THAT guy who power games! ).

So yeah. Imo, it comes down to your expectation. If your expectation is that all "classes" should be on par then I understand the position. I just think that is an assumption some people have, and a view they have on the game, which they are perfectly entitled to. I however don't agree with that assumption!

Nonetheless, nice post!

The issue isn't one of strict balance -- it's one of whether a certain type of character routinely outshines every and any other type of character, in almost any situation that might come up in the game.

Regarding Shugenja, as part of the RPG, this is a design issue to some degree, but it's also an issue with the consequences of using magic in certain situations not being fully realized or explored. If Shugenja dominate combat in-world or in-game, then enemies should be looking to ambush them or concentrate fire on them at the start of skirmishes. If Shugenja dominate social encounters, then others in court should take offense at the weight of the spirits being thrown at them in every discussion, or immediately distrust every Shugenja in court because they assume he's using magic on them (creating offsetting penalties).

As for the card games, I'm actually MUCH less concerned with Shugenja doing crazy stuff that's not balanced against other "character types" there -- the character or the weapon or the spell is just fluff text on a game piece that needs to be balanced in effect-cost-rules between various cards and decks.

If Shugenja dominate social encounters, then others in court should take offense at the weight of the spirits being thrown at them in every discussion, or immediately distrust every Shugenja in court because they assume he's using magic on them (creating offsetting penalties).

This exact situation is already written into the lore

Spells are also prohibited from duels.

"The issue isn't one of strict balance -- it's one of whether a certain type of character routinely outshines every and any other type of character, in almost any situation that might come up in the game."

So it isn't about balance? But it is about balance? How is the second part different to an issue about balance? What am I missing?

If Shugenja dominate social encounters, then others in court should take offense at the weight of the spirits being thrown at them in every discussion, or immediately distrust every Shugenja in court because they assume he's using magic on them (creating offsetting penalties).

This exact situation is already written into the lore

Spells are also prohibited from duels.

"The issue isn't one of strict balance -- it's one of whether a certain type of character routinely outshines every and any other type of character, in almost any situation that might come up in the game."

So it isn't about balance? But it is about balance? How is the second part different to an issue about balance? What am I missing?

Despite being written into the lore, some of the complaints about Shugenja seem to be based on it being missed or ignored in some games -- I've seen several people post examples of Shugenja using specific spells to dominate social interactions and supplant Courtiers, for instance.

For discussions of "balance", it can be split into too general catagories, and I often see people talking past each other because they mean different things.

Some people are referring to a very strict sort of mechanical balance, a sort of "legal fairness" approach to balance in which everything must be mechanically evened out in a very strict manner.

Others are referring to a sort of balance related to play enjoyment -- does a certain type of character "hog the game"?

For me, I'm more concerned with the latter and consider the former to be a tool in the service thereof.

If Shugenja dominate social encounters, then others in court should take offense at the weight of the spirits being thrown at them in every discussion, or immediately distrust every Shugenja in court because they assume he's using magic on them (creating offsetting penalties).

This exact situation is already written into the lore

Spells are also prohibited from duels.

"The issue isn't one of strict balance -- it's one of whether a certain type of character routinely outshines every and any other type of character, in almost any situation that might come up in the game."

So it isn't about balance? But it is about balance? How is the second part different to an issue about balance? What am I missing?

Despite being written into the lore, some of the complaints about Shugenja seem to be based on it being missed or ignore in some games -- I've seen several people post examples of Shugenja using specific spells to dominate social interactions and supplant Courtiers, for instance.

You can't really blame the setting when this issue occurs. It is the GM's role to know that if a shug does this, it is super frowned upon. There are those social ramifications you were talking about, you can't blame the setting/lore when the GM doesn't know this, and lets people away with it for free.

If the concern is certain spells can have a huge effect, yep it is true. And it comes down to balance again. Again, why should a non shug courtier expect to lay the social smackdown on a shug courtier? The shug has the elements on his side and IS going to win. But everyone in court should now know he is a scumbag for using the kami to influence the course of a political discussion. That is the consequence.

There is a reason why scorpion air shugs focus on casting spells discretely! This is the main thematic motivation for that.

With regards to hogging the game. I think it is people playing the characters that do that, rather than the "class" they play. I have had friends who have ruined games with things apart from Shugenja, infact the guys who usually play shugs never really went about dominating the game. The most abusive things I saw were crab and shiba bushi, but my friend playing that is a power gamer, and decided to Hog combat.

Can you build a shug to hog the game? Absolutely. However you can also hog the game with other things.

I don't think you can really bring the "legal" / mechanical fairness into it, given that the mechanics are a reflection of the theme. And when thematically shugs are bastions of power, mechanically, I think it would be inconsistent to not reflect that.

It really comes down to your outlook. If you look at someone in your party who is "more powerful" than you with envy, then you are probably someone who should just play the powerful stuff, because that is how you measure your enjoyment of the game. If you are someone who's primary motivation is to immerse yourself into the lore and theme of it, then you don't mind having really powerful guys around you as it makes the adventure feel more epic!

At the end of the day, it is kind of down to what you like. I just personally prefer that theme trumps mechanical balance.

Despite being written into the lore, some of the complaints about Shugenja seem to be based on it being missed or ignored in some games -- I've seen several people post examples of Shugenja using specific spells to dominate social interactions and supplant Courtiers, for instance.

I cannot talk for everyone, but yes the Shugenja can "dominate" in the social interactions with certain spells, but he will not be able to maintain that level all the time. These spells aren't permanent, they have a short duration, while the courtier's job isn't a short scale stuffs, it's a long works which requires a lot of time in a day. This is where the courtiers surpasses the "Temporary" Shuggy-Courtier.

The same goes with the combat, sure a Shugenja can cast on himself some spells to be able to get beefy, which is also possible in the card game, however, they are limited to their spell per day. I've said it once and I'll say it again. I've had a shugenja who was playing his shugenja for combat purpose only and each time he was in a combat, all he did was casting all his spells and be proud of himself. I've decided to tricked him up by having 2 combats in the same day. The result was: he had no spells for the second combat and afterward, he had no spells to solve some mystical problems that requires him to cast certain spells. He learned to manage his spells and to do more than simply act as a battle-shugenja, since he was the only shugenja in that 6 players campaign.

I agree that the powerlevel of the shugenja is very variable, sometime it's over the top, but it's for a limited time. Courtier and Bushi are very stable on their level, they have a few techniques with some limitation, but overall, they have access to most of them all the time. This is a huge difference. I really feel like it's the Storyteller role to address those kind of problems. In this way, if your group like the current playstyle, it won't be changed and if they don't, then it will be changed through the Storyteller plays style.

I will say that I like when stuffs are balanced. My group also rarely play selfishly, for example, some of my Shugenja likes to take some great spells that buffs a target to be better in a combat and he cast it on a Bushi, since he'll gain a lot more than casting it on himself. Then the Bushi player said that he feels very OP because of that buff and he did decimate everything I've threw at him without any trouble. In the end, yes a Shugenja can be strong when he buffs himself, but he can create monsters when he buffs his allies specialized in their domain.

My group also rarely play selfishly, for example, some of my Shugenja likes to take some great spells that buffs a target to be better in a combat and he cast it on a Bushi, since he'll gain a lot more than casting it on himself. Then the Bushi player said that he feels very OP because of that buff and he did decimate everything I've threw at him without any trouble. In the end, yes a Shugenja can be strong when he buffs himself, but he can create monsters when he buffs his allies specialized in their domain.

Exactly this! Just becasue you CAN min max and be all about numero uno, doesn't mean it is the most fun! This is what RPG's are about! Fun with friends and co-operation, not worrying about who is most op!

It's a question of relevance. No one likes feeling irrelevant, and that can easily become the case if one player is too dominant. And if one player has to constantly hold back in order to avoid stealing every scene, it's an example of bad game design.

Despite being written into the lore, some of the complaints about Shugenja seem to be based on it being missed or ignore in some games -- I've seen several people post examples of Shugenja using specific spells to dominate social interactions and supplant Courtiers, for instance.

You can't really blame the setting when this issue occurs. It is the GM's role to know that if a shug does this, it is super frowned upon. There are those social ramifications you were talking about, you can't blame the setting/lore when the GM doesn't know this, and lets people away with it for free.

I'm not blaming the setting itself.

However, the presentation bears some blame. It's one of those areas in which the RPG material is sparse (at least in the books I have), and I can see why some GMs/groups entirely miss the heavy social consequences that should be coming up when Shugenja start leveraging the spirits to win in court. I'd have to dig around to re-find printed references to those consequences, because I don't remember where they are.

And yes, players bear some of the blame too.

If the concern is certain spells can have a huge effect, yep it is true. And it comes down to balance again. Again, why should a non shug courtier expect to lay the social smackdown on a shug courtier? The shug has the elements on his side and IS going to win. But everyone in court should now know he is a scumbag for using the kami to influence the course of a political discussion. That is the consequence.

The fact that we repeatedly see "but he has the elements on his side" as a justification for shenanigans is indictative that there's a problem here. If a setting and game have specialist character roles focused on a three-way split of Combat, Social, and Spiritual, then we shouldn't see one of those roles have an "I WIN" button built in that can easily overcome the other roles in their own specialties.

Whether it's the game/setting itself, or "just" many players, it comes back to treating the Shugenja-kami relationship as one of a religious nature when it's conventient, and one of utilitarian power when that's conventient instead. The kami are supposed to be revered, but evidently it's OK to draw on their power to twist a trade deal in your favor too.

And if everyone knows he's a scumbag, then mechanically that should be reflected in a penalty that entirely offsets any advantage he might gain from the spirits, unless he's dealing with someone who's unware of his terrible reputation. And there should be Honor and Glory hits for that kind of scumbaggery.

There is a reason why scorpion air shugs focus on casting spells discretely! This is the main thematic motivation for that.

Which just reminds me that I wonder why anyone in Rokugan ever trusts any Scorpion at any time, after more than a millenium of lies lies lies.

With regards to hogging the game. I think it is people playing the characters that do that, rather than the "class" they play. I have had friends who have ruined games with things apart from Shugenja, infact the guys who usually play shugs never really went about dominating the game. The most abusive things I saw were crab and shiba bushi, but my friend playing that is a power gamer, and decided to Hog combat.

Can you build a shug to hog the game? Absolutely. However you can also hog the game with other things.

We can address those other things elsewhere... unless the thread needs to be even more sprawling and unfocused.

It's hard to make a system utterly munchkin proof, but that doesn't mean we should just throw our hands up and say "Well, it's gonna happen, why bother even making it harder?" And whether it's the system itself (or even just the spells) or lack of clarity on the consequences of Shugenja abusing their power, more than a few players have pointed out the ways in which Shugenja can and have presented a problem.

I don't think you can really bring the "legal" / mechanical fairness into it, given that the mechanics are a reflection of the theme. And when thematically shugs are bastions of power, mechanically, I think it would be inconsistent to not reflect that.

Whereas I don't think "shugenja are dominantly powerful" is the theme of the game, nor do I think it serves or supports or fits the theme of the game in any way.

Thematically, Shugenja are priests -- religious leaders, spiritual advisors, etc. Not "walking seige engines" or "the people who dominate the entirety of Rokugan and its culture". If Shugenja really are naturally that dominant in all ways, then why after more than a millenium are they not the one overall social and political power in Rokugan, other than "because we said so"?

It really comes down to your outlook. If you look at someone in your party who is "more powerful" than you with envy, then you are probably someone who should just play the powerful stuff, because that is how you measure your enjoyment of the game. If you are someone who's primary motivation is to immerse yourself into the lore and theme of it, then you don't mind having really powerful guys around you as it makes the adventure feel more epic!

At the end of the day, it is kind of down to what you like. I just personally prefer that theme trumps mechanical balance.

Again, I've never seen anything that indicates that the theme of L5R is "Shugenja powerful, everyone else can expect to lose" -- and from what I have seen of the theme, that treatment of Shugenja is counter, if not downright anathema, to the theme.

(Also, I can't tell if you're using the general or specific "you". I really wish "one" as a generalized reference was still in common use in English, as in "At the end of the day, it is kind of down to what one likes".)

And if there is some precident for Shugenja to be regarded in that manner, then really it should be ruthlessly reexamined on the grounds of whether it makes for the best possible game, and if necessary reworked in a way that does make for the best possible game.

It's a question of relevance. No one likes feeling irrelevant, and that can easily become the case if one player is too dominant. And if one player has to constantly hold back in order to avoid stealing every scene, it's an example of bad game design.

YES -- thank you. That's exactly it.

You can't really blame the setting when this issue occurs. It is the GM's role to know that if a shug does this, it is super frowned upon. There are those social ramifications you were talking about, you can't blame the setting/lore when the GM doesn't know this, and lets people away with it for free.

If the concern is certain spells can have a huge effect, yep it is true. And it comes down to balance again. Again, why should a non shug courtier expect to lay the social smackdown on a shug courtier? The shug has the elements on his side and IS going to win. But everyone in court should now know he is a scumbag for using the kami to influence the course of a political discussion. That is the consequence.

As MaxKilljoy said, there ought to be Honor and/or Glory losses written into the system if doing that kind of thing really does mark the character as "a scumbag." But there aren't. Using magic in court isn't a Low skill; it might be a breach of etiquette, but I don't recall any discussion anywhere in 4e that calls it out as such. (And if using magic in court is a breach of etiquette, why have shugenja developed a whole subset of spells dedicated to social buffing? Why don't the descriptions call those spells out as shady to use, the way they do for other spells?) The Glory chart says nothing about this, nor does the writeup for Infamy. It's entirely possible that earlier editions were more explicit about this -- but that's zero help to people like me, who started playing with 4e.

So no, I don't blame the setting/lore when the GM doesn't know this. I blame the system. :-P

"(Also, I can't tell if you're using the general or specific "you". I really wish "one" as a generalized reference was still in common use in English, as in "At the end of the day, it is kind of down to what one likes".)"

There is quite a funny irony here. In that you (Yes the specific you!) have lamented the fact that the generalisation of "you" is now commonplace in everyday English in place of the traditional "one", and then go on to use the modern "Generalization" over the traditional "Generalisation"! Funny that.

If I need tips on grammar I will send you a pm. As an Irishman, you are lucky I am using "you" at all as oppossed to "ye"!

- To pick up ont he Scorpion thing. Nobody trusts the scorpion, but it is dishonorable behaviour to presume distrust of another samurai, it isn't really that confusing. And about the shugenja not being powerful...have you ever read anything at all outside corebooks? there is around twenty years of history out there on the internet for free with a massive amount of how powerful shugenja are.

You have been using the core books this entire thread as a crutch to back up arguments through omission, and selectively ignoring twenty plus years of material that is available for free online.

It's a question of relevance. No one likes feeling irrelevant, and that can easily become the case if one player is too dominant. And if one player has to constantly hold back in order to avoid stealing every scene, it's an example of bad game design.

I get the point I just disagree with the position.

If you are feeling irrelevant in an RPG because someone rolls more dice than you, then there is something going wrong with the RPG you are playing in. Whether it be how you are playing the character or how the GM is running the game.

The problem you are outlining is not at all unique to shugenja. Infact, the problem doesn't even extend to all elements of shugenja. There are other characters you can build to be as damaging. You even have to specifically build the shug in the first place to be bonkers good. IE. shove all your exp into one ring. If someone isn't min-maxing a shug, then they are going to feel weak.

You can't really blame the setting when this issue occurs. It is the GM's role to know that if a shug does this, it is super frowned upon. There are those social ramifications you were talking about, you can't blame the setting/lore when the GM doesn't know this, and lets people away with it for free.

If the concern is certain spells can have a huge effect, yep it is true. And it comes down to balance again. Again, why should a non shug courtier expect to lay the social smackdown on a shug courtier? The shug has the elements on his side and IS going to win. But everyone in court should now know he is a scumbag for using the kami to influence the course of a political discussion. That is the consequence.

As MaxKilljoy said, there ought to be Honor and/or Glory losses written into the system if doing that kind of thing really does mark the character as "a scumbag." But there aren't. Using magic in court isn't a Low skill; it might be a breach of etiquette, but I don't recall any discussion anywhere in 4e that calls it out as such.

I guess your issue is with the 4th edition book then. Which is fair. I think the 4th ed's books are great, but I can see if someone was new to the game they would miss out on a lot of nuanced things.

For the record. Using low skills is NOT the only way to lose honor. They should of course lose honor for using magic in court, they should lose honor for burning down a building (and be arrested by a magistrate too). That kind of stuff is intuition, and cannot be detailed in a core book! You cannot be spoon fed what does and doesn't lose you honor.

Breaching etiquette should lose you both honor and glory. That is a fundamental thing.

Edit - Had a look in the book, page 90 - Breach of Etiquette, it is subjective really whether or not it is major or minor. Depends on what was done imo.

"(Also, I can't tell if you're using the general or specific "you". I really wish "one" as a generalized reference was still in common use in English, as in "At the end of the day, it is kind of down to what one likes".)"

There is quite a funny irony here. In that you (Yes the specific you!) have lamented the fact that the generalisation of "you" is now commonplace in everyday English in place of the traditional "one", and then go on to use the modern "Generalization" over the traditional "Generalisation"! Funny that.

If I need tips on grammar I will send you a pm. As an Irishman, you are lucky I am using "you" at all as oppossed to "ye"!

The variation between the Z and the S is old enough (earliest useage circa 1760) that "f" was still being used for a long S in printed English documents on both sides of the Atlantic. The Z variant is the standard both in American spelling, and in "Oxford British" spelling at this point. The comparison with the very-recent loss of clarity with the decline of "one" in favor of the "general" you makes for some snarky rhetoric, and not much more.

If I want "grammar tips", I'll go do my own research, thank you.

- To pick up ont he Scorpion thing. Nobody trusts the scorpion, but it is dishonorable behaviour to presume distrust of another samurai, it isn't really that confusing. And about the shugenja not being powerful...have you ever read anything at all outside corebooks? there is around twenty years of history out there on the internet for free with a massive amount of how powerful shugenja are.

You have been using the core books this entire thread as a crutch to back up arguments through omission, and selectively ignoring twenty plus years of material that is available for free online.

So now using the actualy RPG, as printed, is a "crutch"... OK.

"(Also, I can't tell if you're using the general or specific "you". I really wish "one" as a generalized reference was still in common use in English, as in "At the end of the day, it is kind of down to what one likes".)"

There is quite a funny irony here. In that you (Yes the specific you!) have lamented the fact that the generalisation of "you" is now commonplace in everyday English in place of the traditional "one", and then go on to use the modern "Generalization" over the traditional "Generalisation"! Funny that.

If I need tips on grammar I will send you a pm. As an Irishman, you are lucky I am using "you" at all as oppossed to "ye"!

The variation between the Z and the S is old enough (earliest useage circa 1760) that "f" was still being used for a long S in printed English documents on both sides of the Atlantic. The Z variant is the standard both in American spelling, and in "Oxford British" spelling at this point. The comparison with the very-recent loss of clarity with the decline of "one" in favor of the "general" you makes for some snarky rhetoric, and not much more.

If I want "grammar tips", I'll go do my own research, thank you.

- To pick up ont he Scorpion thing. Nobody trusts the scorpion, but it is dishonorable behaviour to presume distrust of another samurai, it isn't really that confusing. And about the shugenja not being powerful...have you ever read anything at all outside corebooks? there is around twenty years of history out there on the internet for free with a massive amount of how powerful shugenja are.

You have been using the core books this entire thread as a crutch to back up arguments through omission, and selectively ignoring twenty plus years of material that is available for free online.

So now using the actualy RPG, as printed, is a "crutch"... OK.

No need to be so hostile

You can't really blame the setting when this issue occurs. It is the GM's role to know that if a shug does this, it is super frowned upon. There are those social ramifications you were talking about, you can't blame the setting/lore when the GM doesn't know this, and lets people away with it for free.

If the concern is certain spells can have a huge effect, yep it is true. And it comes down to balance again. Again, why should a non shug courtier expect to lay the social smackdown on a shug courtier? The shug has the elements on his side and IS going to win. But everyone in court should now know he is a scumbag for using the kami to influence the course of a political discussion. That is the consequence.

As MaxKilljoy said, there ought to be Honor and/or Glory losses written into the system if doing that kind of thing really does mark the character as "a scumbag." But there aren't. Using magic in court isn't a Low skill; it might be a breach of etiquette, but I don't recall any discussion anywhere in 4e that calls it out as such.

I guess your issue is with the 4th edition book then. Which is fair. I think the 4th ed's books are great, but I can see if someone was new to the game they would miss out on a lot of nuanced things.

For the record. Using low skills is NOT the only way to lose honor. They should of course lose honor for using magic in court, they should lose honor for burning down a building (and be arrested by a magistrate too). That kind of stuff is intuition, and cannot be detailed in a core book! You cannot be spoon fed what does and doesn't lose you honor.

Breaching etiquette should lose you both honor and glory. That is a fundamental thing.

So there should be no guideline as to what is and is not a breach of etiquette?

The published game makes a big deal about how "alien" the culture is, and then people insist that the game can't detail ANYTHING. Every time someone asks for the game to give more detail, we're told by someone else "the game can't give details, what a waste of space, you need to figure that out on your own!"

You can't really blame the setting when this issue occurs. It is the GM's role to know that if a shug does this, it is super frowned upon. There are those social ramifications you were talking about, you can't blame the setting/lore when the GM doesn't know this, and lets people away with it for free.

If the concern is certain spells can have a huge effect, yep it is true. And it comes down to balance again. Again, why should a non shug courtier expect to lay the social smackdown on a shug courtier? The shug has the elements on his side and IS going to win. But everyone in court should now know he is a scumbag for using the kami to influence the course of a political discussion. That is the consequence.

As MaxKilljoy said, there ought to be Honor and/or Glory losses written into the system if doing that kind of thing really does mark the character as "a scumbag." But there aren't. Using magic in court isn't a Low skill; it might be a breach of etiquette, but I don't recall any discussion anywhere in 4e that calls it out as such.

I guess your issue is with the 4th edition book then. Which is fair. I think the 4th ed's books are great, but I can see if someone was new to the game they would miss out on a lot of nuanced things.

For the record. Using low skills is NOT the only way to lose honor. They should of course lose honor for using magic in court, they should lose honor for burning down a building (and be arrested by a magistrate too). That kind of stuff is intuition, and cannot be detailed in a core book! You cannot be spoon fed what does and doesn't lose you honor.

Breaching etiquette should lose you both honor and glory. That is a fundamental thing.

So there should be no guideline as to what is and is not a breach of etiquette?

The published game makes a big deal about how "alien" the culture is, and then people insist that the game can't detail ANYTHING. Every time someone asks for the game to give more detail, we're told by someone else "the game can't give details, what a waste of space, you need to figure that out on your own!"

Well yeah if you only look at the 4th edition they don't physically have room to put in every possible breach of etiquette.

You can either research more online, read through the 20+ years of lore, just wing it, or go with only the things that are in the book. It's up to you how you want to play your RPG. Some people like more spoonfeeding than others, which I understand. The group I play with have always been quite liberal and off the cuff about things.

If you are feeling irrelevant in an RPG because someone rolls more dice than you, then there is something going wrong with the RPG you are playing in. Whether it be how you are playing the character or how the GM is running the game.

It's natural to want to contribute, and it's natural to feel like you ought to stand out in the field you specialize in, whether that's skirmishes, court, the battlefield, whatever. If someone else can do your specialty better, and a bunch of other stuff besides, it's easy to wonder why your character is in the party at all.

Every player should get a chance to shine once in a while. Sure, a good GM will manage to make that happen, regardless. But that job becomes much harder when some characters are just better than others. Why force the GM to balance things himself, when you can build it into the system in the first place? The GM already has a bunch on his plate, why add to the load?

The problem you are outlining is not at all unique to shugenja. Infact, the problem doesn't even extend to all elements of shugenja. There are other characters you can build to be as damaging. You even have to specifically build the shug in the first place to be bonkers good. IE. shove all your exp into one ring. If someone isn't min-maxing a shug, then they are going to feel weak.

Well sure, it's not the only easily-broken part of the game system. It's the one this thread is about, though.

If you are feeling irrelevant in an RPG because someone rolls more dice than you, then there is something going wrong with the RPG you are playing in. Whether it be how you are playing the character or how the GM is running the game.

It's natural to want to contribute, and it's natural to feel like you ought to stand out in the field you specialize in, whether that's skirmishes, court, the battlefield, whatever. If someone else can do your specialty better, and a bunch of other stuff besides, it's easy to wonder why your character is in the party at all.

Every player should get a chance to shine once in a while. Sure, a good GM will manage to make that happen, regardless. But that job becomes much harder when some characters are just better than others. Why force the GM to balance things himself, when you can build it into the system in the first place? The GM already has a bunch on his plate, why add to the load?

The problem you are outlining is not at all unique to shugenja. Infact, the problem doesn't even extend to all elements of shugenja. There are other characters you can build to be as damaging. You even have to specifically build the shug in the first place to be bonkers good. IE. shove all your exp into one ring. If someone isn't min-maxing a shug, then they are going to feel weak.

Well sure, it's not the only easily-broken part of the game system. It's the one this thread is about, though.

Yeah true that!

I'm just wary of the "NERF SHUGZ" bandwagon.I'd hate to see a new edition with watered down (nice pun? ) shugenja just so bushi and courtiers would roll the same number of dice as them.

It sounds like you're really invested in the "high fantasy" aspect of Rokugan, and really like the powerful spells with grand effects. I can see two ways to balance this, neither of which is perfect:

1) Make the strongest spells NPC only. A lot of players would be upset at this, and I couldn't really blame them, given its obvious unfairness.

2) Bring the other classes up to the same power level as shugenjas. This would probably necessitate some wuxia-like powers for high-rank ninja and bushi, upsetting people who don't want that.

Oh yeah, the ritual idea proposed earlier in the thread might also help resolve it.

3) The strongest magical effects are cast by rituals rather than spells, making them impractical for use in most combat or court situations. This would nerf shugenjas a bit, but they could still cause powerful magic effects, they would just need to be set up carefully, and probably with the cooperation of the rest of the party.

I'm kinda liking the ritual idea, now that I'm thinking about it more. It seems like a pretty decent compromise.

I also like the ritual spell idea, and making sense, commune, and summon skills that the shugenja have to invest experience to advance.

Asking prospective players and GMs to dig through 20 years of scattered online material (even harder to find now that posts and links in the old AEG forums are inaccessible) and find books from previouos editions of the game, on top of spending potentially as much as $500 if they want the complete 4th edition library, just to have the full system AND an in-depth understanding of the setting, is a massive barrier to entry.

This is, in part, exactly the sort of thing that motivates some of our fellow posters to advocate for a "total reboot". While a company shouldn't disregard their existing customers, it's also a terrible idea for the company ( or the existing fans ) to treat the game as an exclusive club only open to those who've either been around for two decades, or are willing to do two decades of research. As a product, each edition of the game needs to stand on its own.

Spending a page or so on the interaction of spellcasting with Rokugani etiquette, roleplaying, and the mechanics (including Glory and Honor), and adding some references in the texts of certain spells regarding their potetial social / roleplaying impact, would not suddenly make the book too massive. But as with several other requests for guidelines or a framework to build on , it's being treated as if it would be a 20+ page expansion of the book with excruciating detail about every single possible instance.

It sounds like you're really invested in the "high fantasy" aspect of Rokugan, and really like the powerful spells with grand effects. I can see two ways to balance this, neither of which is perfect:

1) Make the strongest spells NPC only. A lot of players would be upset at this, and I couldn't really blame them, given its obvious unfairness.

2) Bring the other classes up to the same power level as shugenjas. This would probably necessitate some wuxia-like powers for high-rank ninja and bushi, upsetting people who don't want that.

Oh yeah, the ritual idea proposed earlier in the thread might also help resolve it.

3) The strongest magical effects are cast by rituals rather than spells, making them impractical for use in most combat or court situations. This would nerf shugenjas a bit, but they could still cause powerful magic effects, they would just need to be set up carefully, and probably with the cooperation of the rest of the party.

I'm kinda liking the ritual idea, now that I'm thinking about it more. It seems like a pretty decent compromise.

You are right, I am all about the high fantasy of L5R. I wouldn't be in favour of "balancing" shugs. I can just accept they are more powerful and it really doesn't bother me! (I usually don't play shugs btw )

For me, the best option if you did want to balance is to just make the casting difficulty higher.

How it is now, Spells have a mastery level, it takes that number of rounds to cast. You can make raises (up to your void ofc) to increase the speed you can cast it by one round with each raise. You just need to make this harder to do. That way you keep the powerlevel, and you can't insta nuke a guy standing in front of you with a rank 5 mastery spell in one round. I'd just say you can only make one raise to increase speed, 1 raise for effect, 1 for additional targets. Instead of being able to dump you raise slots on reduce cast by 1 round each. (maybe a free raise for your element can be directed to reducing cast speed.)

As it is now, a void 3 shug, can instantly cast a mastery 4 spell (1 free raise). If it took 2 rounds instead, using my suggestion, it's two rounds of standing around waiting to get hit !

A ritual requires multiple people, and can be cool, and there is already loads of lore for that, but I wouldn't be putting any powerful ability into a ritual just because they are good spells.

That is IF I wanted to balance shugs to be the same power level as Bushi! Which I do not!

Asking prospective players and GMs to dig through 20 years of scattered online material (even harder to find now that posts and links in the old AEG forums are inaccessible) and find books from previouos editions of the game, on top of spending potentially as much as $500 if they want the complete 4th edition library, just to have the full system AND an in-depth understanding of the setting, is a massive barrier to entry.

This is, in part, exactly the sort of thing that motivates some of our fellow posters to advocate for a "total reboot". While a company shouldn't disregard their existing customers, it's also a terrible idea for the company ( or the existing fans ) to treat the game as an exclusive club only open to those who've either been around for two decades, or are willing to do two decades of research. As a product, each edition of the game needs to stand on its own.

Spending a page or so on the interaction of spellcasting with Rokugani etiquette, roleplaying, and the mechanics (including Glory and Honor), and adding some references in the texts of certain spells regarding their potetial social / roleplaying impact, would not suddenly make the book too massive. But as with several other requests for guidelines or a framework to build on , it's being treated as if it would be a 20+ page expansion of the book with excruciating detail about every single possible instance.

You don't have to spend 500$ and own the complete 4th edition to understand the setting... Google it, read the online story, do some research in a library, look some movies which was used as an inspirations. We live in a nice era for these kind of research, just use it...