You're probably right, we're spending more time arguing about how other people are misinterpreting our arguments than we are about the subject at hand.

I'd create a new thread with my starting premises and principles explicitly spelled out, including things such as this article , some of my prior posts, and your posts here , here , and here , and the direct statement that I am in fact going for something more like the real-world shinto priests and east Asian shamans and so on... but honestly, I worry that we'd just see more than a few posts attacking the starting principles instead of treating them as the "givens" of the discussion in that particular thread.

This post right here. Imo, sums up the problem of this thread.

This part in particular.

"but honestly, I worry that we'd just see more than a few posts attacking the starting principles instead of treating them as the "givens" of the discussion in that particular thread."

I agree with you Kinzen. This thread became pointless about 10 pages in, at least.

You're probably right, we're spending more time arguing about how other people are misinterpreting our arguments than we are about the subject at hand.

I'd create a new thread with my starting premises and principles explicitly spelled out, including things such as this article , some of my prior posts, and your posts here , here , and here , and the direct statement that I am in fact going for something more like the real-world shinto priests and east Asian shamans and so on... but honestly, I worry that we'd just see more than a few posts attacking the starting principles instead of treating them as the "givens" of the discussion in that particular thread.

::shrug:: If I start a thread saying "here's how I would make shugenja look more like X model," and somebody comes in to say that I shouldn't be trying to make them look like X model to begin with, I'll just ignore them. There is precisely zero point in arguing with somebody's homebrew in that fashion, and I think most people won't bother. Anybody who does bother can only drag me down that rabbit hole if I let them.

You're probably right, we're spending more time arguing about how other people are misinterpreting our arguments than we are about the subject at hand.

I'd create a new thread with my starting premises and principles explicitly spelled out, including things such as this article , some of my prior posts, and your posts here , here , and here , and the direct statement that I am in fact going for something more like the real-world shinto priests and east Asian shamans and so on... but honestly, I worry that we'd just see more than a few posts attacking the starting principles instead of treating them as the "givens" of the discussion in that particular thread.

I for my part only argued cause for me it came across that you believe that what is described in your post is the intended default view of Shugenja for the L5R setting. So yeah if you go for homebrew I wil not go and tell you your priciples are wrong cause it is your homebrew and not a claim that this is the intended offical view ort that it should be the intended offical view. Cause to be honest a game which says it wants to tell myth and legends about magical Samurai and Shugenja is nothing I would bother with tuned down realism.

You're probably right, we're spending more time arguing about how other people are misinterpreting our arguments than we are about the subject at hand.

I'd create a new thread with my starting premises and principles explicitly spelled out, including things such as this article , some of my prior posts, and your posts here , here , and here , and the direct statement that I am in fact going for something more like the real-world shinto priests and east Asian shamans and so on... but honestly, I worry that we'd just see more than a few posts attacking the starting principles instead of treating them as the "givens" of the discussion in that particular thread.

::shrug:: If I start a thread saying "here's how I would make shugenja look more like X model," and somebody comes in to say that I shouldn't be trying to make them look like X model to begin with, I'll just ignore them. There is precisely zero point in arguing with somebody's homebrew in that fashion, and I think most people won't bother. Anybody who does bother can only drag me down that rabbit hole if I let them.

I'll probably do it when I get home tonight, after some food and decompress.

BTW, does anyone recall a short discussion either on these forums or on the hold forums about how some versions of Chinese philosophy and alchemy would be deeply heretical in as-written Rokugan? I'm not finding it here, and obviously there's no finding it over there right now.

BTW, does anyone recall a short discussion either on these forums or on the hold forums about how some versions of Chinese philosophy and alchemy would be deeply heretical in as-written Rokugan? I'm not finding it here, and obviously there's no finding it over there right now.

I do recall that, but I don't remember the details.

BTW, does anyone recall a short discussion either on these forums or on the hold forums about how some versions of Chinese philosophy and alchemy would be deeply heretical in as-written Rokugan? I'm not finding it here, and obviously there's no finding it over there right now.

I do recall that, but I don't remember the details.

There was some discussion about how gunpowder had resulted from the Chinese alchemists' attempts to create an elixir of immortality, and then how an elixir of immortality would be viewed as a blasphemous attempt to subvert the Celestial Wheel and thwart Kharma.

Second, with all these references to the religious role of the shugenja in Rokugani society, a role that -- based on numerous references given -- goes very far beyond "go talk to some elemental kami"... Where is this reflected in the actual system?

Where is this reflected in the spellcasting mechanics?

Where is this reflected in the "social standing" mechanics (Glory, Honor, Status, etc)?

Please , show me where anything other than "talking to kami lets them invoke wonderous effects" is reflected in the actual system.

As far as I've seen across multiple L5R 4th RPG books, they aren't. The mechanics are just generic spellcasting rolls that could as easily reflect many spellcasting traditions. The mechanics show us something entirely different from what the setting text is telling us. Edit a handful of fluff sentences in the whole page and a half of spell mechanics in the core book, and you could use those same rules for almost any sort of spellcasting.

You don't have to like that. You can absolutely change it in your own personal games. But it is the default assumption of the setting, so arguing against it and saying that it's somehow disconnected from the presented lore is just false.

I suppose it would be rude to not answer a post directly addressed to me...

But that's just my conclusion on the matter, and you have yours, and neither is going to talk the other out of their existing conclusion at this point.


E: because this forum software sucks... and I keep borking it...

So to steer this conversation a bit, how would everyone feel if shugenja had a 5 step progression like other schools, but universally kept the ability to summon, commune, and sense with elemental Kami at the cost of a void point?

I include the cost of a void point because those three effects are no longer competing with other spell slots.

So for example I'll use the kitsu because I am most familiar with the lion clan and their themes.

Rank one technique: strength of the ancestors

For the Lion clan, the ancestors walk with them every day. The prayers of the kitsu can turn the aid of the ancestors into a very very real thing. A number of times per day equal to their insight rank the shugenja can bestow a blessing upon another samurai of xk0 to a number of uses of a school skill a number of times equal to the shugenja insight rank.

If the target of this effect is another lion, the bonus becomes xkx instead.

Powerful, grief with the character, flavored too be clearly mystical, and more along the lines of other schools.

Thoughts, criticisms, fixes? I can work on the other 4 techniques if there is an interest.

So to steer this conversation a bit, how would everyone feel if shugenja had a 5 step progression like other schools, but universally kept the ability to summon, commune, and sense with elemental Kami at the cost of a void point?

I include the cost of a void point because those three effects are no longer competing with other spell slots.

So for example I'll use the kitsu because I am most familiar with the lion clan and their themes.

Rank one technique: strength of the ancestors

For the Lion clan, the ancestors walk with them every day. The prayers of the kitsu can turn the aid of the ancestors into a very very real thing. A number of times per day equal to their insight rank the shugenja can bestow a blessing upon another samurai of xk0 to a number of uses of a school skill a number of times equal to the shugenja insight rank.

If the target of this effect is another lion, the bonus becomes xkx instead.

Powerful, grief with the character, flavored too be clearly mystical, and more along the lines of other schools.

Thoughts, criticisms, fixes? I can work on the other 4 techniques if there is an interest.

I always thought the reason shugs didn't have rank techs was because they get a pick of spells according to their alignment. They essentially have school ranks (much more powerful ones) which are more versatile and can be tailored to develop a large variety of unique paths.

Are you proposing ditching spells, and instead of having rank techniques? Or having both?

Not sure how you can get more mystical than speaking to spirits to cast spells tbh!

I always thought the reason shugs didn't have rank techs was because they get a pick of spells according to their alignment. They essentially have school ranks (much more powerful ones) which are more versatile and can be tailored to develop a large variety of unique paths.

Are you proposing ditching spells, and instead of having rank techniques? Or having both?

Not sure how you can get more mystical than speaking to spirits to cast spells tbh!

I feel like they need rank techniques. I'll throw a suggestion based on what has been talked some pages ago.

Just to be on the same level, there was a discussion about giving some spells "Clan Specific". These spells might be accessible through rank techniques.

Let's say that rank 1, 3 and 5, their school techniques grants them Clan Specific spells and 2 spells of their choice, nothing stops the designers to grant them some School "fluffs" techniques for the rank 2 and 4. As an example, give the actual rank 1 technique at rank 2 and at rank 4, a duty specific technique. This might give more flavor to the Shugenja and a feeling of progression while ranking up, because right now, besides the 3 new spells, there's not much to the Shugenja while ranking up.

Of course, if the spell mastery is still there, I would also think they need to change the mechanics which allows them to reduce their casting time. This is the biggest issue about balancing. I think it should be at max 2 turns of reduction, which results a spell mastery 5 still takes 3 turns to cast, allowing the Bushi a chance to remove the concentration while spell casting. This would also bring back the Yojimbo to a more useful level because they will want to protect more their Shugenja when they are casting.

I always thought the reason shugs didn't have rank techs was because they get a pick of spells according to their alignment. They essentially have school ranks (much more powerful ones) which are more versatile and can be tailored to develop a large variety of unique paths.

Are you proposing ditching spells, and instead of having rank techniques? Or having both?

Not sure how you can get more mystical than speaking to spirits to cast spells tbh!

I feel like they need rank techniques. I'll throw a suggestion based on what has been talked some pages ago.

Just to be on the same level, there was a discussion about giving some spells "Clan Specific". These spells might be accessible through rank techniques.

Let's say that rank 1, 3 and 5, their school techniques grants them Clan Specific spells and 2 spells of their choice, nothing stops the designers to grant them some School "fluffs" techniques for the rank 2 and 4. As an example, give the actual rank 1 technique at rank 2 and at rank 4, a duty specific technique. This might give more flavor to the Shugenja and a feeling of progression while ranking up, because right now, besides the 3 new spells, there's not much to the Shugenja while ranking up.

Of course, if the spell mastery is still there, I would also think they need to change the mechanics which allows them to reduce their casting time. This is the biggest issue about balancing. I think it should be at max 2 turns of reduction, which results a spell mastery 5 still takes 3 turns to cast, allowing the Bushi a chance to remove the concentration while spell casting. This would also bring back the Yojimbo to a more useful level because they will want to protect more their Shugenja when they are casting.

Acutally you allways can go for a alternate path as Shuegnja. Some of them are really cool, powerful and fluffy. They also push the Shuegnja into the direction you want to have him. So there are some options for the Ranks behoynd 1 and ofocurse you have advanced schools which have school techniuqes.

I don´t think it would be a bad Idea to grant them school techniques from rank 1 to 5 but than it should be more oriented at the current school thecniques they can get at least from the powerlevel. IN return I also think we should get more Bushi techniuqes on the lvl of the Matsu Berserker and more courtier techniques on the lvl of the Bayushi or Yasuki Courtier.

When reducing the cast time you also have to redesign the powerlevel of the spells. HUrried steps is not for nothing the single best fire spell you can get. So yeah with reduced casttime I think things like the 10K10 death ray need adjustment and this would mean you need to redesign all the spells without letting the shugenja getting crippled or less powerful along the way.

So to steer this conversation a bit, how would everyone feel if shugenja had a 5 step progression like other schools, but universally kept the ability to summon, commune, and sense with elemental Kami at the cost of a void point?

I include the cost of a void point because those three effects are no longer competing with other spell slots.

So for example I'll use the kitsu because I am most familiar with the lion clan and their themes.

Rank one technique: strength of the ancestors

For the Lion clan, the ancestors walk with them every day. The prayers of the kitsu can turn the aid of the ancestors into a very very real thing. A number of times per day equal to their insight rank the shugenja can bestow a blessing upon another samurai of xk0 to a number of uses of a school skill a number of times equal to the shugenja insight rank.

If the target of this effect is another lion, the bonus becomes xkx instead.

Powerful, grief with the character, flavored too be clearly mystical, and more along the lines of other schools.

Thoughts, criticisms, fixes? I can work on the other 4 techniques if there is an interest.

I always thought the reason shugs didn't have rank techs was because they get a pick of spells according to their alignment. They essentially have school ranks (much more powerful ones) which are more versatile and can be tailored to develop a large variety of unique paths.

Are you proposing ditching spells, and instead of having rank techniques? Or having both?

Not sure how you can get more mystical than speaking to spirits to cast spells tbh!

The point would be to get rid of the spell list entirely, outside of commune, summon, and sense.

I frankly don't see the need for the big laundry list of powers. Its too versatile when every other powerin the game is highly specific. A Bushi or courtier or monk gets a single effect no matter how they plan on building their character, why do shugenja get to be so more heavily customizable?

The more I go over my own opinion in my head and read this thread, the more I think I'd be most happy if Bushi and curious got more things to play with. For Bushi I would need about 30 extra kata that were better balanced with not - awful requirements to buy them. And courtier would need an inclusion of. ... something to really bite on to.

But my argument has always been that the mechanics should show the world. And right now the mechanics say that I can freshest entire armies with a handful of fire or earth shugenja. Therefore the fiction needs to match. And don't tell me "blah blah honor blah blah social expectations. " not everyone is honorable, and it works only take s handful of dishonorable shugenja to get together and lay allot of these setting assumptions (like Bushi are who you should have fighting your battles) to waste.

So to steer this conversation a bit, how would everyone feel if shugenja had a 5 step progression like other schools, but universally kept the ability to summon, commune, and sense with elemental Kami at the cost of a void point?

I include the cost of a void point because those three effects are no longer competing with other spell slots.

So for example I'll use the kitsu because I am most familiar with the lion clan and their themes.

Rank one technique: strength of the ancestors

For the Lion clan, the ancestors walk with them every day. The prayers of the kitsu can turn the aid of the ancestors into a very very real thing. A number of times per day equal to their insight rank the shugenja can bestow a blessing upon another samurai of xk0 to a number of uses of a school skill a number of times equal to the shugenja insight rank.

If the target of this effect is another lion, the bonus becomes xkx instead.

Powerful, grief with the character, flavored too be clearly mystical, and more along the lines of other schools.

Thoughts, criticisms, fixes? I can work on the other 4 techniques if there is an interest.

I always thought the reason shugs didn't have rank techs was because they get a pick of spells according to their alignment. They essentially have school ranks (much more powerful ones) which are more versatile and can be tailored to develop a large variety of unique paths.

Are you proposing ditching spells, and instead of having rank techniques? Or having both?

Not sure how you can get more mystical than speaking to spirits to cast spells tbh!

The point would be to get rid of the spell list entirely, outside of commune, summon, and sense.

I frankly don't see the need for the big laundry list of powers. Its too versatile when every other powerin the game is highly specific. A Bushi or courtier or monk gets a single effect no matter how they plan on building their character, why do shugenja get to be so more heavily customizable?

The more I go over my own opinion in my head and read this thread, the more I think I'd be most happy if Bushi and curious got more things to play with. For Bushi I would need about 30 extra kata that were better balanced with not - awful requirements to buy them. And courtier would need an inclusion of. ... something to really bite on to.

But my argument has always been that the mechanics should show the world. And right now the mechanics say that I can freshest entire armies with a handful of fire or earth shugenja. Therefore the fiction needs to match. And don't tell me "blah blah honor blah blah social expectations. " not everyone is honorable, and it works only take s handful of dishonorable shugenja to get together and lay allot of these setting assumptions (like Bushi are who you should have fighting your battles) to waste.

I think in the example you give, that the fiction needs to mirror the mechanics of shugenja isn't the right way round. I have always viewed it, from 1st ed to 4th ed, that Shugenja were always very powerful in the storyline, this led to them being more powerful (in some ways) in the mechanics of the RPG as it needed to rpesent an accurate depiction. Not trying to nitpick, but I think it is important to acknowledge the sequence of events in order to understand the intended direction of the game.

I see what you are getting at about making things more mechanically robust. I would argue however, that spells as they are in the book, are about the only mechanically static representation of shugenja's powers. Without them, you just have them as they are now, except to use a spell, you'd go the sense, commune, summon route, have a conversation with the kami to get them to do something for you. Sounds much more laborious, and much much more open to subjectivity than the current system.

Also, the point you touched on here. about wanting bushi to be as versatile as shugs. You seem to be of the mind that they should be "equal" in power level. Is wanting this equality, from anything in particular? Is it you personally have found bushi underpowered in comparison? I think the presumption that they should be equal is a very personal view, which is fair if you feel that way, but I do not think the intention was ever there, for shugenja and Bushi to be on par with regards to power level, neither in terms of mechanics OR story.

Have I gotten your intentions correct?

Correct me if I have picked up what you are saying backwards!

So to steer this conversation a bit, how would everyone feel if shugenja had a 5 step progression like other schools, but universally kept the ability to summon, commune, and sense with elemental Kami at the cost of a void point?

I include the cost of a void point because those three effects are no longer competing with other spell slots.

So for example I'll use the kitsu because I am most familiar with the lion clan and their themes.

Rank one technique: strength of the ancestors

For the Lion clan, the ancestors walk with them every day. The prayers of the kitsu can turn the aid of the ancestors into a very very real thing. A number of times per day equal to their insight rank the shugenja can bestow a blessing upon another samurai of xk0 to a number of uses of a school skill a number of times equal to the shugenja insight rank.

If the target of this effect is another lion, the bonus becomes xkx instead.

Powerful, grief with the character, flavored too be clearly mystical, and more along the lines of other schools.

Thoughts, criticisms, fixes? I can work on the other 4 techniques if there is an interest.

I always thought the reason shugs didn't have rank techs was because they get a pick of spells according to their alignment. They essentially have school ranks (much more powerful ones) which are more versatile and can be tailored to develop a large variety of unique paths.

Are you proposing ditching spells, and instead of having rank techniques? Or having both?

Not sure how you can get more mystical than speaking to spirits to cast spells tbh!

The point would be to get rid of the spell list entirely, outside of commune, summon, and sense.

I frankly don't see the need for the big laundry list of powers. Its too versatile when every other powerin the game is highly specific. A Bushi or courtier or monk gets a single effect no matter how they plan on building their character, why do shugenja get to be so more heavily customizable?

The more I go over my own opinion in my head and read this thread, the more I think I'd be most happy if Bushi and curious got more things to play with. For Bushi I would need about 30 extra kata that were better balanced with not - awful requirements to buy them. And courtier would need an inclusion of. ... something to really bite on to.

But my argument has always been that the mechanics should show the world. And right now the mechanics say that I can freshest entire armies with a handful of fire or earth shugenja. Therefore the fiction needs to match. And don't tell me "blah blah honor blah blah social expectations. " not everyone is honorable, and it works only take s handful of dishonorable shugenja to get together and lay allot of these setting assumptions (like Bushi are who you should have fighting your battles) to waste.

I think in the example you give, that the fiction needs to mirror the mechanics of shugenja isn't the right way round. I have always viewed it, from 1st ed to 4th ed, that Shugenja were always very powerful in the storyline, this led to them being more powerful (in some ways) in the mechanics of the RPG as it needed to rpesent an accurate depiction. Not trying to nitpick, but I think it is important to acknowledge the sequence of events in order to understand the intended direction of the game.

I see what you are getting at about making things more mechanically robust. I would argue however, that spells as they are in the book, are about the only mechanically static representation of shugenja's powers. Without them, you just have them as they are now, except to use a spell, you'd go the sense, commune, summon route, have a conversation with the kami to get them to do something for you. Sounds much more laborious, and much much more open to subjectivity than the current system.

Also, the point you touched on here. about wanting bushi to be as versatile as shugs. You seem to be of the mind that they should be "equal" in power level. Is wanting this equality, from anything in particular? Is it you personally have found bushi underpowered in comparison? I think the presumption that they should be equal is a very personal view, which is fair if you feel that way, but I do not think the intention was ever there, for shugenja and Bushi to be on par with regards to power level, neither in terms of mechanics OR story.

Have I gotten your intentions correct?

Correct me if I have picked up what you are saying backwards!

You are pretty spot on. As for why and how I got there, it really stems from how I play the game. I play in almost exclusively two different settings. The first is in Heroes of Rokugan, which if you are not aware is a huge living campaign. What this means is that I am not sitting down to play with my friends, necessarily, but with 5-6 random strangers with all of us trying to make sure our clans interest cones out on top during pre made modules. This means that the rules need to stand up to bring squeezed for all they are worth in a competitive environment. It was here that I learned the destructive pet that a combat minded shugenja can bring to bear, and I felt like a chump for playing a Bushi to focus on combat.

My other play outlet is a parlor larp (no touching) where we get really involved with court and cultural shenanigans. It was here that I learned that an air shugenja can laugh circles around crane and scorpion courtiers. These are very different settings than me and a couple of my buddies playing regularly around my kitchen table. But I really need those rules we are given to hold up top those types of players who will squeeze it for all the practical power they can for their characters, social norms of the setting be damned. Nothing FORCES that Phoenix fire shugenja to try abd keep his honor up, and he may be unusual/unpopular with his clan at a 1.2 personal honor, but the setting says he is do rare that the clan wouldn't put him down as an embarrassment either.

So to steer this conversation a bit, how would everyone feel if shugenja had a 5 step progression like other schools, but universally kept the ability to summon, commune, and sense with elemental Kami at the cost of a void point?

I include the cost of a void point because those three effects are no longer competing with other spell slots.

So for example I'll use the kitsu because I am most familiar with the lion clan and their themes.

Rank one technique: strength of the ancestors

For the Lion clan, the ancestors walk with them every day. The prayers of the kitsu can turn the aid of the ancestors into a very very real thing. A number of times per day equal to their insight rank the shugenja can bestow a blessing upon another samurai of xk0 to a number of uses of a school skill a number of times equal to the shugenja insight rank.

If the target of this effect is another lion, the bonus becomes xkx instead.

Powerful, grief with the character, flavored too be clearly mystical, and more along the lines of other schools.

Thoughts, criticisms, fixes? I can work on the other 4 techniques if there is an interest.

I always thought the reason shugs didn't have rank techs was because they get a pick of spells according to their alignment. They essentially have school ranks (much more powerful ones) which are more versatile and can be tailored to develop a large variety of unique paths.

Are you proposing ditching spells, and instead of having rank techniques? Or having both?

Not sure how you can get more mystical than speaking to spirits to cast spells tbh!

The point would be to get rid of the spell list entirely, outside of commune, summon, and sense.

I frankly don't see the need for the big laundry list of powers. Its too versatile when every other powerin the game is highly specific. A Bushi or courtier or monk gets a single effect no matter how they plan on building their character, why do shugenja get to be so more heavily customizable?

The more I go over my own opinion in my head and read this thread, the more I think I'd be most happy if Bushi and curious got more things to play with. For Bushi I would need about 30 extra kata that were better balanced with not - awful requirements to buy them. And courtier would need an inclusion of. ... something to really bite on to.

But my argument has always been that the mechanics should show the world. And right now the mechanics say that I can freshest entire armies with a handful of fire or earth shugenja. Therefore the fiction needs to match. And don't tell me "blah blah honor blah blah social expectations. " not everyone is honorable, and it works only take s handful of dishonorable shugenja to get together and lay allot of these setting assumptions (like Bushi are who you should have fighting your battles) to waste.

I think in the example you give, that the fiction needs to mirror the mechanics of shugenja isn't the right way round. I have always viewed it, from 1st ed to 4th ed, that Shugenja were always very powerful in the storyline, this led to them being more powerful (in some ways) in the mechanics of the RPG as it needed to rpesent an accurate depiction. Not trying to nitpick, but I think it is important to acknowledge the sequence of events in order to understand the intended direction of the game.

I see what you are getting at about making things more mechanically robust. I would argue however, that spells as they are in the book, are about the only mechanically static representation of shugenja's powers. Without them, you just have them as they are now, except to use a spell, you'd go the sense, commune, summon route, have a conversation with the kami to get them to do something for you. Sounds much more laborious, and much much more open to subjectivity than the current system.

Also, the point you touched on here. about wanting bushi to be as versatile as shugs. You seem to be of the mind that they should be "equal" in power level. Is wanting this equality, from anything in particular? Is it you personally have found bushi underpowered in comparison? I think the presumption that they should be equal is a very personal view, which is fair if you feel that way, but I do not think the intention was ever there, for shugenja and Bushi to be on par with regards to power level, neither in terms of mechanics OR story.

Have I gotten your intentions correct?

Correct me if I have picked up what you are saying backwards!

You are pretty spot on. As for why and how I got there, it really stems from how I play the game. I play in almost exclusively two different settings. The first is in Heroes of Rokugan, which if you are not aware is a huge living campaign. What this means is that I am not sitting down to play with my friends, necessarily, but with 5-6 random strangers with all of us trying to make sure our clans interest cones out on top during pre made modules. This means that the rules need to stand up to bring squeezed for all they are worth in a competitive environment. It was here that I learned the destructive pet that a combat minded shugenja can bring to bear, and I felt like a chump for playing a Bushi to focus on combat.

My other play outlet is a parlor larp (no touching) where we get really involved with court and cultural shenanigans. It was here that I learned that an air shugenja can laugh circles around crane and scorpion courtiers. These are very different settings than me and a couple of my buddies playing regularly around my kitchen table. But I really need those rules we are given to hold up top those types of players who will squeeze it for all the practical power they can for their characters, social norms of the setting be damned. Nothing FORCES that Phoenix fire shugenja to try abd keep his honor up, and he may be unusual/unpopular with his clan at a 1.2 personal honor, but the setting says he is do rare that the clan wouldn't put him down as an embarrassment either.

Given your experiences with shugs, i can understand your position. I think I have probably been quite lucky with my group of rp'ers. We definitely have power gamers but I think we generally had most of our stuff done without dice that I never felt there was a huge amount of abuse.

The most abusive thing I did see was Hida bushi. 1v1 they just murder pretty much anything! (think it was first ed)

So to steer this conversation a bit, how would everyone feel if shugenja had a 5 step progression like other schools, but universally kept the ability to summon, commune, and sense with elemental Kami at the cost of a void point?

I include the cost of a void point because those three effects are no longer competing with other spell slots.

So for example I'll use the kitsu because I am most familiar with the lion clan and their themes.

Rank one technique: strength of the ancestors

For the Lion clan, the ancestors walk with them every day. The prayers of the kitsu can turn the aid of the ancestors into a very very real thing. A number of times per day equal to their insight rank the shugenja can bestow a blessing upon another samurai of xk0 to a number of uses of a school skill a number of times equal to the shugenja insight rank.

If the target of this effect is another lion, the bonus becomes xkx instead.

Powerful, grief with the character, flavored too be clearly mystical, and more along the lines of other schools.

Thoughts, criticisms, fixes? I can work on the other 4 techniques if there is an interest.

I always thought the reason shugs didn't have rank techs was because they get a pick of spells according to their alignment. They essentially have school ranks (much more powerful ones) which are more versatile and can be tailored to develop a large variety of unique paths.

Are you proposing ditching spells, and instead of having rank techniques? Or having both?

Not sure how you can get more mystical than speaking to spirits to cast spells tbh!

The point would be to get rid of the spell list entirely, outside of commune, summon, and sense.

I frankly don't see the need for the big laundry list of powers. Its too versatile when every other powerin the game is highly specific. A Bushi or courtier or monk gets a single effect no matter how they plan on building their character, why do shugenja get to be so more heavily customizable?

The more I go over my own opinion in my head and read this thread, the more I think I'd be most happy if Bushi and curious got more things to play with. For Bushi I would need about 30 extra kata that were better balanced with not - awful requirements to buy them. And courtier would need an inclusion of. ... something to really bite on to.

But my argument has always been that the mechanics should show the world. And right now the mechanics say that I can freshest entire armies with a handful of fire or earth shugenja. Therefore the fiction needs to match. And don't tell me "blah blah honor blah blah social expectations. " not everyone is honorable, and it works only take s handful of dishonorable shugenja to get together and lay allot of these setting assumptions (like Bushi are who you should have fighting your battles) to waste.

I think in the example you give, that the fiction needs to mirror the mechanics of shugenja isn't the right way round. I have always viewed it, from 1st ed to 4th ed, that Shugenja were always very powerful in the storyline, this led to them being more powerful (in some ways) in the mechanics of the RPG as it needed to rpesent an accurate depiction. Not trying to nitpick, but I think it is important to acknowledge the sequence of events in order to understand the intended direction of the game.

I see what you are getting at about making things more mechanically robust. I would argue however, that spells as they are in the book, are about the only mechanically static representation of shugenja's powers. Without them, you just have them as they are now, except to use a spell, you'd go the sense, commune, summon route, have a conversation with the kami to get them to do something for you. Sounds much more laborious, and much much more open to subjectivity than the current system.

Also, the point you touched on here. about wanting bushi to be as versatile as shugs. You seem to be of the mind that they should be "equal" in power level. Is wanting this equality, from anything in particular? Is it you personally have found bushi underpowered in comparison? I think the presumption that they should be equal is a very personal view, which is fair if you feel that way, but I do not think the intention was ever there, for shugenja and Bushi to be on par with regards to power level, neither in terms of mechanics OR story.

Have I gotten your intentions correct?

Correct me if I have picked up what you are saying backwards!

You are pretty spot on. As for why and how I got there, it really stems from how I play the game. I play in almost exclusively two different settings. The first is in Heroes of Rokugan, which if you are not aware is a huge living campaign. What this means is that I am not sitting down to play with my friends, necessarily, but with 5-6 random strangers with all of us trying to make sure our clans interest cones out on top during pre made modules. This means that the rules need to stand up to bring squeezed for all they are worth in a competitive environment. It was here that I learned the destructive pet that a combat minded shugenja can bring to bear, and I felt like a chump for playing a Bushi to focus on combat.

My other play outlet is a parlor larp (no touching) where we get really involved with court and cultural shenanigans. It was here that I learned that an air shugenja can laugh circles around crane and scorpion courtiers. These are very different settings than me and a couple of my buddies playing regularly around my kitchen table. But I really need those rules we are given to hold up top those types of players who will squeeze it for all the practical power they can for their characters, social norms of the setting be damned. Nothing FORCES that Phoenix fire shugenja to try abd keep his honor up, and he may be unusual/unpopular with his clan at a 1.2 personal honor, but the setting says he is do rare that the clan wouldn't put him down as an embarrassment either.

Given your experiences with shugs, i can understand your position. I think I have probably been quite lucky with my group of rp'ers. We definitely have power gamers but I think we generally had most of our stuff done without dice that I never felt there was a huge amount of abuse.

The most abusive thing I did see was Hida bushi. 1v1 they just murder pretty much anything! (think it was first ed)

Actually there is still a building path for HIdas with enables you to murder anything cause you don´t wound penalties and a dmg boost of 2k1 thanks to Crab Berserker, which is a Rank 2 alternate path for HIda Bushi.

Also you still have the I Voidbomb you to Death Shiba Bushi who can be a really frhighting duelist exspecially in death duels.

So yeah there are some Bushi who can keep up with the Shugenja power but that are far to few.

For Courtier you can outclass the Shugenja with the Otomo or the Bayushi school cause the Otomo can just honor stomp the Shugenja and the Scropion can just create a blackmail and than go fof exploding against unexploding dice with a bunsh of free raises (at least if you play long enough to reach rank 5)

But yeah also the courtier have notr enough schools which can keep up with Shugenjas here.

So I think we need more BUshi and Courtier schools that are as powerful as the Shugenja spells.

In response to the above-mentioned interplay between CCG and RPG as applies to Shugenja...

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?view=findpost&p=1876739

Interesting. I have a lot of stuff to chew on right now. :-)

I wouldn't chuck out all the spells except the three universal ones, because I feel like the versatility of magic can be a feature rather than a bug. You just need to rein in the versatility a bit. I think that 5-tech schools would help with that, because if you're giving a tech at every level, then you can more sharply limit spell selection -- two or even just one per rank. (Actual number would have to be based on what the techs look like.) It also goes a LONG way toward making school differences a real thing, without getting really complicated about keywords. I've been toying with some rules for ritual impurity and how it affects spellcasting (because that's a really huge feature of Shinto and some aspects of Buddhism), and greater focus on techs means I could, for example, design the Tamori such that they don't suffer as much penalty from the impurity of killing as an Asahina does, give them more combat uses of spells without making combat spells 100% unavailable to other schools, etc.

Regarding limited spell selection, I've also been contemplating the possibility of "tiered" spells, which improve as you go up in school rank. Probably not at every rank, but 1/3/5 is easy to design. Take the Elemental Weapon spells, for example: say that at SR1 you get the weapon and your Ring (not SR) in skill ranks, with Affinity/Deficiency making Ring +/-1 for that purpose. At SR3 you can give that weapon + ranks to somebody else, and you get mastery abilities along with your ranks. At SR5 you get a Free Raise to an appropriate Maneuver, and if you give the weapon to somebody else they get the mastery abilities. (Example mechanics only; not for use in actual play.) You can choose to cast that spell at any tier within your capabilities, but the TN/casting time go up if you choose a higher tier.

Advantages of this: it helps mitigate the problem where a higher-ML spell is mostly a better version of a low-ML spell, so if you took the weak version it feels like you're wasting one of your choices by also taking the strong version. It also helps tone down the ML 1 spells, some of which are (I think) way too powerful for something any baby shugenja can pull off, and gives incentive to go for higher-level options, which may take longer to cast.

Disadvantages of this: I would NOT want to make every spell tiered, because designing multiple expansions every single time would be a pain. I also think tiered spells should count for two or something when picking spells, so that people don't automatically take these and ignore the others.

Thoughts not fully baked yet. But I'm having fun contemplating such things.

I just had a thought. Let us say that the basic ability, and early training of a shugenja grants the shugenja sense, commune, summon. Then the shugenja learns one of his sensei's favorite prayers simply because he has heard it recited so often, or had to scribe the scroll for his master so often, he is familiar with the spell.

Yet his other spells are selected through his roleplay interaction with the kami, or other spirits. Through their direct communication, the kami or spirits teach the shugenja how to properly address, and call for their aide. This could result in selecting spells that are appropriate, or spells that the storyteller, and gamemaster co-write to fit the campaign. I think this sounds a bit crazy, but I also think it could be rewarding for both player, and storyteller. This is a lump of coal idea in its current form, maybe someone can polish it into a diamond?

Interesting. I have a lot of stuff to chew on right now. :-)

I wouldn't chuck out all the spells except the three universal ones, because I feel like the versatility of magic can be a feature rather than a bug. You just need to rein in the versatility a bit. I think that 5-tech schools would help with that, because if you're giving a tech at every level, then you can more sharply limit spell selection -- two or even just one per rank. (Actual number would have to be based on what the techs look like.) It also goes a LONG way toward making school differences a real thing, without getting really complicated about keywords. I've been toying with some rules for ritual impurity and how it affects spellcasting (because that's a really huge feature of Shinto and some aspects of Buddhism), and greater focus on techs means I could, for example, design the Tamori such that they don't suffer as much penalty from the impurity of killing as an Asahina does, give them more combat uses of spells without making combat spells 100% unavailable to other schools, etc.

Regarding limited spell selection, I've also been contemplating the possibility of "tiered" spells, which improve as you go up in school rank. Probably not at every rank, but 1/3/5 is easy to design. Take the Elemental Weapon spells, for example: say that at SR1 you get the weapon and your Ring (not SR) in skill ranks, with Affinity/Deficiency making Ring +/-1 for that purpose. At SR3 you can give that weapon + ranks to somebody else, and you get mastery abilities along with your ranks. At SR5 you get a Free Raise to an appropriate Maneuver, and if you give the weapon to somebody else they get the mastery abilities. (Example mechanics only; not for use in actual play.) You can choose to cast that spell at any tier within your capabilities, but the TN/casting time go up if you choose a higher tier.

Advantages of this: it helps mitigate the problem where a higher-ML spell is mostly a better version of a low-ML spell, so if you took the weak version it feels like you're wasting one of your choices by also taking the strong version. It also helps tone down the ML 1 spells, some of which are (I think) way too powerful for something any baby shugenja can pull off, and gives incentive to go for higher-level options, which may take longer to cast.

Disadvantages of this: I would NOT want to make every spell tiered, because designing multiple expansions every single time would be a pain. I also think tiered spells should count for two or something when picking spells, so that people don't automatically take these and ignore the others.

Thoughts not fully baked yet. But I'm having fun contemplating such things.

Iam not sure how much I like it or hate it. Yes I can see that more school rank techniuqes are cool . I really like most of the advanced class Shugenja schools cause they bring in some really cool techniques paer rank. for the Strong vs weak vesion I would rather like to have an evolving one. When you grow in your understanding of the Interaction with the Kami your spell also gets more powerful (for me more powerful is not granting it to other but things like Ignoring dmg reduction, letting 9 and 10s crit etc).

I really don´t like the reducition of Shugenja spells cause to be fair atm each Shugenja gets 3 spells per lvl and in most of the groups I know has no way of getting more spells than his starting spells plus 9 cause most grousp don´t play longer than Ir 3.

So to avoid this I think evolving spells could work. You could tie them to Insightrank and Shugenja school, rank , clan etc,comunication with the Kami, affinity etc.

I just had a thought. Let us say that the basic ability, and early training of a shugenja grants the shugenja sense, commune, summon. Then the shugenja learns one of his sensei's favorite prayers simply because he has heard it recited so often, or had to scribe the scroll for his master so often, he is familiar with the spell.

Yet his other spells are selected through his roleplay interaction with the kami, or other spirits. Through their direct communication, the kami or spirits teach the shugenja how to properly address, and call for their aide. This could result in selecting spells that are appropriate, or spells that the storyteller, and gamemaster co-write to fit the campaign. I think this sounds a bit crazy, but I also think it could be rewarding for both player, and storyteller. This is a lump of coal idea in its current form, maybe someone can polish it into a diamond?

While I like the roleplaying part and really would love to get it I have to say this is nothing I want for most of the groups cause it gives the Dm to much power. He actually takes a great part of your char and makes the choices for you cause the Kamis are NPcs and therefore controlled by him. This in turn lets him decide whcih spell the Kami grant you and since the spells are the defining thing of the Shugenja mechanic I rather want to avoid this.

What I would prefer is saying ok Spell x can be learned under the condition that you talked with Kami y at place Z and resolved the ritual necassary to learn the spell.

I really don´t like the reducition of Shugenja spells cause to be fair atm each Shugenja gets 3 spells per lvl and in most of the groups I know has no way of getting more spells than his starting spells plus 9 cause most grousp don´t play longer than Ir 3.

In that same span of play, a bushi gets three techniques and maybe a kata or two. A shugenja with twelve spells (starting 6 plus 3 at R2 and R3) already has way more options; reducing that number to, say, eight (4 + 2 + 2) still leaves him a lot of flexibility. And I'm talking about pairing that with techniques, too, which would partially replace spell choice (as they already do when you take an alternate path).

I really don´t like the reducition of Shugenja spells cause to be fair atm each Shugenja gets 3 spells per lvl and in most of the groups I know has no way of getting more spells than his starting spells plus 9 cause most grousp don´t play longer than Ir 3.

In that same span of play, a bushi gets three techniques and maybe a kata or two. A shugenja with twelve spells (starting 6 plus 3 at R2 and R3) already has way more options; reducing that number to, say, eight (4 + 2 + 2) still leaves him a lot of flexibility. And I'm talking about pairing that with techniques, too, which would partially replace spell choice (as they already do when you take an alternate path).

I think I would depend on the technique. I mean I have no problem with giving up my spell slots for things liek Inferno Guard or Isawa tensai but some other alternate pathes are just to bad to trade them against spells.

So if this could work will heavly depend on the usefulness of the new techniques and how good they are. Cause actually they nned to be good enough to replace the missing flexibility and power the Shugenja will expierience

in comparrsion to now.

I also coudl think that have no problem with less spells if they are going to evolve into new and more powerful forms. this would mean I can keep my power but Shuegnja are not powerfula nd felxible anymore.

You know, the more I contemplate turning shugenja schools into five-rank setups, the more I like it. Bearing in mind that my own goal in redesigning would be to make shugenja look more like priests of an East Asian sort, I would come up with a bunch of spells related to that sort of thing -- geomancy, Spirit Realms, theology, and so forth -- and then reallocate a bunch of the current spell list as technique fodder instead. For a lot of the Great Clan schools, it would be pretty easy to do:

Kuni - spells vs. Tainted things (Jade Strike, Major Binding, etc)

Asahina - social buffs (Benten's Touch, Voice of the Wind, etc)

Tamori - combat self-buffs (Fires of Purity, Armor of Earth, etc)

Yoritomo - weather control (Tempest of Air, Fury of Osano-Wo, etc)

Soshi - illusions (Token of Memory, Hidden Visage, etc)

Yogo - wards (various Symbols, etc)

I have a harder time with the Kitsu (because Battle doesn't really fit their fluff, but Spirit Realms is the kind of thing I want everybody to have more access to), Ide (because traveling/movement seems too limited), and Isawa (because their theme is "we're good at everything"). Plus it would be a pain to deal with Minor Clan schools, too -- I'd probably go back to an idea from an older edition, and not give them the full five ranks. But the above provides me with a solid enough foothold that I'm going to give this concept some real consideration.

For the Iuchi, maybe give THEM the Battle magic angle (in honor of the Khan's armies... yeah, yeah, they do movement stuff, but maybe make THAT a technique angle).

Give the Kitsu *spiritual* self-buffs (things like resisting Taint, keeping Gaki away, anything along those lines)

For the Isawa...

Give them access to all the spell lists, but make their techniques less effective overall. Might cause some "but they're suposed to be the beeeeeeest!" whining, but it would give them full magical flexibility while not making them absurdly dominant... and in the fluff, this is backed up- the Kuni DO know more about killing oni, for example.

And then make the Ishiken an alternate path of Void-y lunacy.