Courtier who are going for ranks in Kenjutsu are normaly folloing a suboptimal path cause you actually never want to have a Katana with you cause this would mean you need to defend youself in a Duel wihich is soimething a Courtier want to avoid at all cost.

So when a Courtier is wielding a Katana he either was a Bushi bfore going Courtier and therefore still is one or is counted as one when it comes to the things he is expected to do (which is the reason why Courtier and Shugenja avoid training sowrdmanship).

The major exception is a Fire Shugenja with the Katana of Fire he has probably a high Kenjutsu skill but no Katana cause he wants to use the Fire Sword but is no BUshi cause the identification symbol of the Bushi is missing.

Also you said exceptional Swordfighter which means that the char is so good that it cam to the atention of is lord whcih in turn means hsi lord got sure he will be a Bushi and not a Courtier cause that is how Rokugan works. You are not going to decide for yourself. Your

Lord is saying what you are going to become.

Also the non courtier who are taking courtier are not going to get the Role of a Courtier cause the lord will not risk his representation though people without formal techniques and education. The reason why people take the skills is a clear mechanical one because Courtier and Eitiquette 3 are

the only skills that are not giving you a insight point deficit when you are raising them above 1.

Acutally yes Shugenja and Courtier that are wearing a Katana, the Wakiziashi is nothing you really want to fight with, are doing things wrong. Cause acording to the tradtion a courtier leave his Katana at the family shrine or in the hands of his lord and a Shugenja does not need it cause they are not expected to defend themself

with it but have Yojimbos which do it. The reason is that a Shugenja is so rare and precious for most of the clans that they avoid all possible ways in which he can get him self killed easily and when he has a Katana that means he need to face his duels himself which in turn gets him killed fast against a Duelist who know what he is doing like for example every Kakita.

Also the equipment tables of the classes are actually wrong cause as I mentioned above Shugenja and Courtier at most carry a Wakiziashi and no Katana. So these tables need to be redisinged to represent the reality a bit better than as they do it now.

Ah, I see, and here I thought a wakizashi was a kind of sword... silly me.

Looking at the RPG books, I don't see any "equipment tables" for the various schools, just a list for each one. And most of the non-Bushi schools don't list a katana, just a wakizashi, or some other weapon(s). So these "tables" that you think are "wrong", don't even show the thing you're claiming they're wrong about. Are you sure you know the RPG as well as you're claiming?

Never mind how interesting it is to see you, so quickly after hammering at others that they're not following the "epic samurai fantasy!" you say the books tell us is the focus of L5R, tell us that those same books are "wrong".

On the subject of non-Bushi carrying swords, for someone who is so intent on "epic samurai fantasy" and facing world-shattering threats and over-the-top action as proper L5R, you seem to expect Rokugani social customs and niceties to protect those Courtiers and Shugenja when a horde of goblins or oni or zombies attacks them while on their "epic samurai adventure".

But really, the most telling comment in your entire post is this thing about "suboptimal path"... this takes us right back to the "rules and mechanics first, setting second" attitude you've displayed routinely.

Courtier who are going for ranks in Kenjutsu are normaly folloing a suboptimal path cause you actually never want to have a Katana with you cause this would mean you need to defend youself in a Duel wihich is soimething a Courtier want to avoid at all cost.

So when a Courtier is wielding a Katana he either was a Bushi bfore going Courtier and therefore still is one or is counted as one when it comes to the things he is expected to do (which is the reason why Courtier and Shugenja avoid training sowrdmanship).

The major exception is a Fire Shugenja with the Katana of Fire he has probably a high Kenjutsu skill but no Katana cause he wants to use the Fire Sword but is no BUshi cause the identification symbol of the Bushi is missing.

Also you said exceptional Swordfighter which means that the char is so good that it cam to the atention of is lord whcih in turn means hsi lord got sure he will be a Bushi and not a Courtier cause that is how Rokugan works. You are not going to decide for yourself. Your

Lord is saying what you are going to become.

Also the non courtier who are taking courtier are not going to get the Role of a Courtier cause the lord will not risk his representation though people without formal techniques and education. The reason why people take the skills is a clear mechanical one because Courtier and Eitiquette 3 are

the only skills that are not giving you a insight point deficit when you are raising them above 1.

Acutally yes Shugenja and Courtier that are wearing a Katana, the Wakiziashi is nothing you really want to fight with, are doing things wrong. Cause acording to the tradtion a courtier leave his Katana at the family shrine or in the hands of his lord and a Shugenja does not need it cause they are not expected to defend themself

with it but have Yojimbos which do it. The reason is that a Shugenja is so rare and precious for most of the clans that they avoid all possible ways in which he can get him self killed easily and when he has a Katana that means he need to face his duels himself which in turn gets him killed fast against a Duelist who know what he is doing like for example every Kakita.

Also the equipment tables of the classes are actually wrong cause as I mentioned above Shugenja and Courtier at most carry a Wakiziashi and no Katana. So these tables need to be redisinged to represent the reality a bit better than as they do it now.

Ah, I see, and here I thought a wakizashi was a kind of sword... silly me.

Looking at the RPG books, I don't see any "equipment tables" for the various schools, just a list for each one. And most of the non-Bushi schools don't list a katana, just a wakizashi, or some other weapon(s). So these "tables" that you think are "wrong", don't even show the thing you're claiming they're wrong about. Are you sure you know the RPG as well as you're claiming?

Never mind how interesting it is to see you, so quickly after hammering at others that they're not following the "epic samurai fantasy!" you say the books tell us is the focus of L5R, tell us that those same books are "wrong".

On the subject of non-Bushi carrying swords, for someone who is so intent on "epic samurai fantasy" and facing world-shattering threats and over-the-top action as proper L5R, you seem to expect Rokugani social customs and niceties to protect those Courtiers and Shugenja when a horde of goblins or oni or zombies attacks them while on their "epic samurai adventure".

But really, the most telling comment in your entire post is this thing about "suboptimal path"... this takes us right back to the "rules and mechanics first, setting second" attitude you've displayed routinely.

The Wakiziashi is more a symbol than a Weapon. It is the honor of the Samurai and thats the reason why all Samuri are having one nearbye. It is not seen as a Weapon cause the dueling rule, if you carry a weapon you can defend youself, is not applying here.

So yes it is not seen as a weapon and rarely used as one.

Actuall it can still be a equipment table without having and actual table as part but yeah if we want to be 100% exact it is a list, which is still not 100% fitting. Best example is the 1 additional weapon option for some of the non Bushi Schools.

Also only because 1^part of a book is right does not mean that a different part can´t be wrong. Cause if this were the case even 1 false sentance in a rpg book would make the compleet book false and since each rpg book has at least 1 wrong sentance, thx to complictaed or vague wording, all books

are by default wrong if you say it can be either wrong or right but not both.

I don´t expect the goblins to respect Rokugan customs. I expect the Bushi of the Group to do his job and defend the courtier and other non combatants when they are dragged in a combat siuation or, wehn tehy have one, that their yojimbo defends them. For Shugenja I see no problem with epic combat cause

they are pretty strong combatants when built i the right way.

Yes Iam an optimizer. No I don´t see it as a problem. Yes I want solid and well thought out rules which are making playing the game fun and not anyoing. Cause that is what bad rules do and therefore good and solid rules comes first before I think about the setting. Clearly the rules need to fit the setting so how I color them

can be different but the mechanics have to be solid and good or even the best setting will do nothing to keep players in the game for long. (Look at the declining L5R CCG before they sold it for example)

Yeah sorry but no. This is not my version but the version which is supported by the offical sources. The question is allaways waht people can expect from the game. To answer this questions people most of the time go for the offical Canon and other offical sources like the CCG, if it exsists, or the TV show etc.

The picture you get from Rokugan through these offical sources is a pretty epic one and therefore the default picture you go for when discussing it.

Oddly enough, having read through much or all of the published material for the 4th edition RPG, having played the game, etc... many other people are not forming the same narrow "all epic, all the time" picture you are.

and here we are again with an arugment of maijority which is not an argument at all cause how many people are doing soemthing as nothing to do if they doing it right or wrong.

So no matter how many people read the published material how many different ways, you're the one who's right?

And when the book agrees with you, it's right, but when the book indicates something else might be true, then it's wrong and you're still right?

OK.

So no matter how many people read the published material how many different ways, you're the one who's right?

And when the book agrees with you, it's right, but when the book indicates something else might be true, then it's wrong and you're still right?

OK.

No Iam concider myself right until you can bring me factual evidance that Iam not. Many people who are doing something are not facts. Things that are printed in the book are facts. Things that are prnted as Canon are facts. Things that are part of the history are facts.

So as long as you don´t go and find me a page that says what you claim to be true is true you are not right. And by saying that it says what you say I mean it is printed there and not something you interpret into it.

So far, every time we've quoted from the books, you've just told us that the book is wrong, or that we're "reading it wrong".

Seriously, nevermind. I'm done with your circular nonsense and buttchered English.


/plonk

So far, every time we've quoted from the books, you've just told us that the book is wrong, or that we're "reading it wrong".

Seriously, nevermind. I'm done with your circular nonsense and buttchered English.

/plonk

I see so when you can´t come up with any argument of value you just go to the insult retreat. Ok noted.

But one thing actually I did not tell you that everything you said when qouting books is wrong. What I said is that when you quote old books that does not apply anymore cause the 4th edition replaced the older edition and this means thta the books

are no longer used by most of the people. Therefore things in them are not relevant. The only things that are relevant are in the 4th edition books.

So yeah when you qoute things like first or second edition books I say that this is not relevant.

As I said when you can bring me facts and evidance from the 4th edition that what you claim, that the Shugenja priest roll is not supported by the mechanics than Iam the first who admits that he was wrong.

But it seems you rather want to concede with is also ok cause than also know I am right. So thank you for agreeing with me in the end.

Well, since I can see your post here from the main page when looking at what's new, despite having given up and put you on the ignore list, I'll just add this... all my my quotes from the RPG books HAVE BEEN from 4th edition. I don't have any other L5R books, that's the only edition I own anything from and the only source I have. For someone who insists on references from the books, you either don't know them very well, or just can't be bothered to pay attention to where people are clearly telling you they're quoting from.

Ask yourself this -- what is it exactly you're adding to this discussion, other than barely-parsable demands for things that people have actually already posted multiple times? (And no, you don't need to answer, because frankly, other than hoping you'll stop and figure out it for yourself, I don't actually give a ****, not even a small one.)

Well, since I can see your post here from the main page when looking at what's new, despite having given up and put you on the ignore list, I'll just add this... all my my quotes from the RPG books HAVE BEEN from 4th edition. I don't have any other L5R books, that's the only edition I own anything from and the only source I have. For someone who insists on references from the books, you either don't know them very well, or just can't be bothered to pay attention to where people are clearly telling you they're quoting from.

Ask yourself this -- what is it exactly you're adding to this discussion, other than barely-parsable demands for things that people have actually already posted multiple times? (And no, you don't need to answer, because frankly, other than hoping you'll stop and figure out it for yourself, I don't actually give a ****, not even a small one.)

And now you add incredibility to your continued insults. Cause actually I thought you wanted to Ignore what I say. So after it is clear that you don´t stadn in for you word I think there is no reason to take anything you say serious anymore.

From a quick track back of the thread I found 4qoutes of the books from you. These are

The Great Clans, page 51:

"Most of the members of the Asahina live in the family's principle stronghold, Shinden Asahina. This temple complex is one of the great holy sites of the Empire, and every year numerous pilgrims visit it to offer their devotions..."

TGC, page 116:

"...the Kitsu serve as the clan's priests and spiritual advisers, guiding the Lion in worship not only of the kami but also and especially of the ancestors."

TGC, page 182, on the Isawa...

"The family was founded by Isawa himself along with his children, and began as a collection of sorcerers who were also priests of the Fortunes. Shinsei's arrival and teachings allowed the Isawa to seek a more enlightened form of magic, mastering the art of calling on the kami to cast elemental spells. The wisdom of Shinsei challenged the Isawa's competitive spirit, but once they saw the wisdom and power inherent in his teachings they gladly adopted them and happily accepted the Emperor's command that Shinseism be merged with the worship of the Fortunes. Thus was born a tradition of magic and religion that shaped the role of shugenja throughout the Empire."

And page 183 regarding same...

"...furthermore, as guardians of the Tao and home to the first shugenja ever to walk the Empire, they have a legitimate claim to their position as the masters of all matters spiritual."

so these qoutes are saying something what role the Shugenja play in the differen Clans. This is no evidence that something is missing in the mechanics cause most of it like the fusion of tao and fortunism is displayed by the Theology skill.

The ancestor guidance of the Kitsu actually brought them a unique Shuenja technique which is enabling them to talk to the spirits and is supporting the role emphasised by the qoute you made.

Also Shugenja are still the number one person to go for Spiritual guidance, when you can find one. So in the end the qoutes you did are not supporting what you are saying cause there are actually mechanics for the priest side of the

Shugenja.

Could there be more. Yes and certainly they could be clearer about how you can emphazise this side of the Shugenja but the mechanics are there so there is not disconect between the rules and the wolrd they display. At least not at this

point.

It's like this post was skipped entirely, along with several others.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/page-19#entry1890065

It's been made clear several times that several of us are not having a discussion about what's already in the game, and in fact are pointing out both how the game fails to match "crunch and fluff" within itself (which it does, and we've given examples already, so stop asking for what's already been given), and what could be done to address that from the ground up, which includes hypothetical changes from bottom to top. In the context of that discussion, nothing is "sacred".

If you want to restrict your own discussion to what already exists inside the published material, that's fine, but please please please be aware that you're then not having the same discussion that some of us are. Stop demanding "source material" references from inside the existing L5R material in response to people who are clearly not restricting their own discussion to that box.

We're going in circles here because some people keep responding to a discussion of "what should be" (and yes that's a matter of opinion, no need to point that out again) as if it were a discussion of what already is.

It's as if some of us are standing here looking at a river and talking about how there should be a bridge here, and how we'd build that bridge, and what the trade-offs might be... and every so often, a couple of people standing nearby shout "There's no bridge there!"

You want opinion, here's my opinion on this idea. Honestly, that's nonsense. FFG will not restart the whole existing lore of the game because that's basically bad marketting. Why? Because they will lose a lot of the current communauty. Sure they may remove a few things here and there, but I really doubt that they would change anything to the lore Pre-Clan War.

No one is calling for a complete rework or throwing everything out to start over from scratch.

I am.

The current community is very small, not enough to support a game. That was why it was sold. Deciding not to go back and fix cracks in the foundation during their one and only chance to do so because it would lose a lot of the current community, the one that is too small to support a game, would be a very stupid decision.

And no, I don't think explicitly "reworking the setting from the ground up to make shugenja work better" is going to have the customers flocking to the game. But "reworking the setting from the ground up to be coherent and focused and good at doing all of the things it needs to be doing" will.

I'm sorry, I keep saying "no one is" and forgetting that in some instances you actually did. I really don't mean to do that, I'm just very very frustrated by the field of strawmen that has been propped up in front of roughly 50% of the things I've posted.

I'm sure other clans would question that legitimacy.

That's very much beside the point at hand, however, so I'm not going to debate it one bit.

The point is to provide examples of the books telling us that shugenja are involved in "all matters spiritual", and that the role of shugenja in Rokugan is "a tradition of magic and religion".

People not get jokes in this internet age?

Some of the exchanges in this thread have worn my sense of humor quite thin...

For anyone who wants to see how we got to this place and actually understand the full arguments being made, or just to see where a lot of thing things that we've been accused of "not saying" or "not providing" were actually said and provided... have a massive list of posts in this thread:

A pair of previously posted relevant articles, for those who missed them:

http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/magic/antiscience.html
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/columns/criticalintel/10302-I-Hate-Magic


Some of the real-world religious concepts and practices that underlie the fictional spirituality and religion of Rokugani culture -- you don't have to accept a word of it as applying to Rokugan as you'd like to see it, but keep in mind that this is where the Rokugan you know and love came from. Your ability to make coherent arguments about Rokugan's mythology, cosmology, and spiritual beliefs will be better off for having looked into these subjects (just starting with the pages linked, it's only wikipedia...)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest#Ancient_priests_and_priestesses
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest#Eastern_religions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest#Indigenous_and_ethnic_religions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinto#Theology_and_cosmology
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tao
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_in_Japan



~~~~

It's as if some of us are standing here looking at a river and talking about how there should be a bridge here, and how we'd build that bridge, and what the costs and trade-offs might be...

...and every so often, a couple of people standing nearby shout "There's no bridge there, morons!"

For anyone who wants to see how we got to this place and actually understand the full arguments being made, or just to see where a lot of thing things that we've been accused of "not saying" or "not providing" were actually said and provided... have a massive list of posts in this thread:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1892747

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1892516

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1892285

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1892279

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1892092

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1891419

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1891258

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1891214

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1890005

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1889137

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1888748

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1888645

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1888645

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1888572

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1887275

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1886593

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1885968

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1885762

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1885557

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1885500

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1884972

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1884105

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1880444

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1879885

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1879635

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1879054

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1878928

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1878811

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1878800

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1878765

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1878754

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1878560

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1878546

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1878485

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1878452

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1877804

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1877561

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1877498

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1877449

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1877435

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1877321

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1877250

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1877042

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1876739

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1876608

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1875965

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1875176

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1875133

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1875114

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1874862

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1874385

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1874367

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1874297

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1874238

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1873568

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1873534

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1873288

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1873175

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1873118

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1873083

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1872865

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1871716

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1871005

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1860636

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1860598

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1859456

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1859273

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1858953

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1858944

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1858666

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1858557

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1858418

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1857452

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1857385

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1857373

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/?p=1856970

A pair of previously posted relevant articles, for those who missed them:

http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/magic/antiscience.html

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/columns/criticalintel/10302-I-Hate-Magic

Some of the real-world religious concepts and practices that underlie the fictional spirituality and religion of Rokugani culture -- you don't have to accept a word of it as applying to Rokugan as you'd like to see it, but keep in mind that this is where the Rokugan you know and love came from. Your ability to make coherent arguments about Rokugan's mythology, cosmology, and spiritual beliefs will be better off for having looked into these subjects (just starting with the pages linked, it's only wikipedia...)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest#Ancient_priests_and_priestesses

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest#Eastern_religions

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest#Indigenous_and_ethnic_religions

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinto#Theology_and_cosmology

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tao

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_in_Japan

~~~~

It's as if some of us are standing here looking at a river and talking about how there should be a bridge here, and how we'd build that bridge, and what the costs and trade-offs might be...

...and every so often, a couple of people standing nearby shout "There's no bridge there, morons!"

Yeah no my ability to make coherent arguments will not get better because even if they were the insparation real life religions have nothing to do with the Rokuganmi religion and ways of worship.

So delving into these concepts will not help me to understand the concept of the Rokugani religion:

But what I need to bring coherent arguments is an Understandding of the Rokigani religion.

Therefore if you want to have coherent arguments you are better of with the current 4th Edition books and the offical fictions than with Real life stuff, which actually has no place in an RPG.

So far, every time we've quoted from the books, you've just told us that the book is wrong, or that we're "reading it wrong".

Seriously, nevermind. I'm done with your circular nonsense and buttchered English.

/plonk

Why do you feel the need to be so rude?

Have you thought for a moment that Tev might not be a native English speaker? Even if he is, I still understand what he is saying and the point he is trying to get across, so why does it matter?

Just because people disagree with you, does not make them wrong. You are behaving like there is a wrong or a right in this discussion, or that it is an argument to be won. It isn't. You cannot "win" the argument. You need to accept other people have a different opinion to you and move on.

It is very immature to stoop down to personal insults because somebody on the internet is disagreeing with you.

As someone who butts heads with Tev on many issues... their English is WAY better than my....ANY other language, frankly.

It's as if some of us are standing here looking at a river and talking about how there should be a bridge here, and how we'd build that bridge, and what the costs and trade-offs might be...

...and every so often, a couple of people standing nearby shout "There's no bridge there, morons!"

I'll just take that quote but I could have taken a couple more.

First of all, nobody called you a moron, you're the only one that used insults and those insults aren't helping at all besides placing yourself in a bad position. Instead of posting when you are mad, I can suggest you to cool off before doing it. It's a suggestion, I'm not telling you what you "have to do", it's up to you.

Second, I'm probably one of the people that you're talking about and you're wrong on my intention. My real intention, and I'll use your image, is to know the size of the river, the utility of that bridge (will it be used for cars or just people walking over it), how many people will pass over it at the same time, what kind of material may be the best, etc. Before thinking of any costs and trade-offs, we need to see what is the real need. That was with your image, I cannot speak for the others, but when I asked for more details to show me about the problems you kept talking about, it was to understand your point of view. It's not about insulting you or anything, it's simply to understand your point of view.

Opinions are based on several things: facts understood, fact more or less understood, fact not understood at all (yes, that's 3 categories), false facts, allegations, someone else opinion, etc. (I will not name them all because there's soooo many of them). To fully understand an opinion, there's a need to know on what this opinion is based on. It's easy to talk over opinions, but I never saw a discussion that went well when it was just about opinions.

Sorry for that "non-productive post", before anyone blames "me" for doing that.

So far, every time we've quoted from the books, you've just told us that the book is wrong, or that we're "reading it wrong".

Seriously, nevermind. I'm done with your circular nonsense and buttchered English.

/plonk

Why do you feel the need to be so rude?

Have you thought for a moment that Tev might not be a native English speaker? Even if he is, I still understand what he is saying and the point he is trying to get across, so why does it matter?

Just because people disagree with you, does not make them wrong. You are behaving like there is a wrong or a right in this discussion, or that it is an argument to be won. It isn't. You cannot "win" the argument. You need to accept other people have a different opinion to you and move on.

It is very immature to stoop down to personal insults because somebody on the internet is disagreeing with you.

It's not about disagreement -- there's been mutually polite disagreement with many of you on this thread. I had a long explanation written out and posted, but really, it defeats the purpose to continue it here, so I've chopped it out. I'd be fine with PMing you the explanation.

Now, we can talk about the actual subject of the thread, or you can continue to ask me why I'm not nice enough.

Starting over on something I did several pages back -- references in the RPG books to the role of Shugengja in Rokugani religious life, a role that goes far beyond communing with the elements. The problem is, L5R keeps telling us all this, and then showing us a bunch of spell-flinging samurai who happen to talk to the elements.

The Great Clans, page 51:

"Most of the members of the Asahina live in the family's principle stronghold, Shinden Asahina. This temple complex is one of the great holy sites of the Empire, and every year numerous pilgrims visit it to offer their devotions..."

TGC, page 116:

"...the Kitsu serve as the clan's priests and spiritual advisers, guiding the Lion in worship not only of the kami but also and especially of the ancestors."

TGC, page 182, on the Isawa...

"The family was founded by Isawa himself along with his children, and began as a collection of sorcerers who were also priests of the Fortunes. Shinsei's arrival and teachings allowed the Isawa to seek a more enlightened form of magic, mastering the art of calling on the kami to cast elemental spells. The wisdom of Shinsei challenged the Isawa's competitive spirit, but once they saw the wisdom and power inherent in his teachings they gladly adopted them and happily accepted the Emperor's command that Shinseism be merged with the worship of the Fortunes. Thus was born a tradition of magic and religion that shaped the role of shugenja throughout the Empire."

And page 183 regarding same...

"...furthermore, as guardians of the Tao and home to the first shugenja ever to walk the Empire, they have a legitimate claim to their position as the masters of all matters spiritual."

See... You haven't presented any contradictions by quoting any of this. Tev already addressed it, but it really needs repeating, since SO MUCH of this discussion has revolved around how you've "already pointed out/quoted/said what needs to be said" (paraphrasing your position).

•Great Clans, pg 51: And? Nothing about this quote is contradicted by mechanics or lore at all. Nothing.

•TGC, pg 116: Yes, this is how the Kitsu function. As shugenja, they are priests of the kami. As Kitsu specifically, they are priests of the Lion Ancestors. Again, no contradictions at all.

•TGC, pg 182: Just like with the Asahina above, quoting history fluff doesn't actually present any problems between lore, mechanics, or both. What are you getting at here?

•TGC, pg 183: So they are more learned than anyone else, which absolutely plays through in the presented lore and mechanics. Where's the issue?

Starting over on something I did several pages back -- references in the RPG books to the role of Shugengja in Rokugani religious life, a role that goes far beyond communing with the elements. The problem is, L5R keeps telling us all this, and then showing us a bunch of spell-flinging samurai who happen to talk to the elements.

The Great Clans, page 51:

"Most of the members of the Asahina live in the family's principle stronghold, Shinden Asahina. This temple complex is one of the great holy sites of the Empire, and every year numerous pilgrims visit it to offer their devotions..."

TGC, page 116:

"...the Kitsu serve as the clan's priests and spiritual advisers, guiding the Lion in worship not only of the kami but also and especially of the ancestors."

TGC, page 182, on the Isawa...

"The family was founded by Isawa himself along with his children, and began as a collection of sorcerers who were also priests of the Fortunes. Shinsei's arrival and teachings allowed the Isawa to seek a more enlightened form of magic, mastering the art of calling on the kami to cast elemental spells. The wisdom of Shinsei challenged the Isawa's competitive spirit, but once they saw the wisdom and power inherent in his teachings they gladly adopted them and happily accepted the Emperor's command that Shinseism be merged with the worship of the Fortunes. Thus was born a tradition of magic and religion that shaped the role of shugenja throughout the Empire."

And page 183 regarding same...

"...furthermore, as guardians of the Tao and home to the first shugenja ever to walk the Empire, they have a legitimate claim to their position as the masters of all matters spiritual."

See... You haven't presented any contradictions by quoting any of this. Tev already addressed it, but it really needs repeating, since SO MUCH of this discussion has revolved around how you've "already pointed out/quoted/said what needs to be said" (paraphrasing your position).

•Great Clans, pg 51: And? Nothing about this quote is contradicted by mechanics or lore at all. Nothing.

•TGC, pg 116: Yes, this is how the Kitsu function. As shugenja, they are priests of the kami. As Kitsu specifically, they are priests of the Lion Ancestors. Again, no contradictions at all.

•TGC, pg 182: Just like with the Asahina above, quoting history fluff doesn't actually present any problems between lore, mechanics, or both. What are you getting at here?

•TGC, pg 183: So they are more learned than anyone else, which absolutely plays through in the presented lore and mechanics. Where's the issue?

I wanted to articulate this when it was said, but I felt like it would take me too long to try and explain. You summed up what I wanted to say pretty well.

First, the context of why those quotes were posted makes a big difference. It was made perfectly clear that those quotes were not posted to show something about the individual schools or families, but rather as general references regarding the role (in breadth and depth) of Shugenja. We see references to shugenja living at temples and attending to holy sites; references to shugenja and ancestor worship; references to shugenja dealing with the Tao of Shinsei and the Fortunes and all matters spiritual, religious, and magical. Tearing them down as references to the individual schools misses the point entirely.

Second, with all these references to the religious role of the shugenja in Rokugani society, a role that -- based on numerous references given -- goes very far beyond "go talk to some elemental kami"... Where is this reflected in the actual system? Where is this reflected in the spellcasting mechanics? Where is this reflected in the "social standing" mechanics (Glory, Honor, Status, etc)?

Please, show me where anything other than "talking to kami lets them invoke wonderous effects" is reflected in the actual system.

As far as I've seen across multiple L5R 4th RPG books, they aren't. The mechanics are just generic spellcasting rolls that could as easily reflect many spellcasting traditions. The mechanics show us something entirely different from what the setting text is telling us. Edit a handful of fluff sentences in the whole page and a half of spell mechanics in the core book, and you could use those same rules for almost any sort of spellcasting.

Maybe one of the BIG disconnects in this thread, a place where we're talking past each other completely, is right here.

Some people are looking at the spellcasting rules and seeing in them no reflection of the setting material, no sign of how shugenja access "magic", or of their relationship with the elemantal kami, or of their role in Rokugani society. They're looking for an active synchronization, and not seeing anything of the sort, and giving references to show the two things not in sync.

Other people are looking at the same setting and those same mechanics, and seeing no outright contradiction (because frankly it's kinda hard to actively contradict a system that generic), and thinking that the first group hasn't "proven" anything.

I am not sure why, but I get the image of someone beating their head on the table in their frustration. A book opened to the page of their answer right there before them.

I think this is the third time I have iterated this in this thread alone. All the information needed to bring shugenja into your concept is already there serving as a guideline. You the storyteller has to shoulder some resoonsibility. You can chisel rules into stone if you wish, but you will lose the beautiful flexibility that currently resides in Legend of the Five Rings.

The more you set things down to systematic mathematical rules, the more flexibility you will lose as a storyteller. Well that is my two koku on the subject. Then again, I saw nothing wrong with the way shugenja were presented in the first place. We have a saying where I grew up, "If somethin' aint broke, don't fix it." However for those who do see it as broken, I have also read some good suggestions on this thread. I have liked some of those posts, and even quoted others for emphasis.

You've got the frustration part right, certainly.

The information might be there, but there's nothing in the mechanics. I have little patience for "let the GM handle it" as a game design "solution" when it comes to fundamental system issues. And frankly, as a GM, I'm going to get very tired of having to "wing it" every time there's something that the system forgot to deal with.

First, the context of why those quotes were posted makes a big difference. It was made perfectly clear that those quotes were not posted to show something about the individual schools or families, but rather as general references regarding the role (in breadth and depth) of Shugenja. We see references to shugenja living at temples and attending to holy sites; references to shugenja and ancestor worship; references to shugenja dealing with the Tao of Shinsei and the Fortunes and all matters spiritual, religious, and magical. Tearing them down as references to the individual schools misses the point entirely.

Second, with all these references to the religious role of the shugenja in Rokugani society, a role that -- based on numerous references given -- goes very far beyond "go talk to some elemental kami"... Where is this reflected in the actual system? Where is this reflected in the spellcasting mechanics? Where is this reflected in the "social standing" mechanics (Glory, Honor, Status, etc)?

Please, show me where anything other than "talking to kami lets them invoke wonderous effects" is reflected in the actual system.

As far as I've seen across multiple L5R 4th RPG books, they aren't. The mechanics are just generic spellcasting rolls that could as easily reflect many spellcasting traditions. The mechanics show us something entirely different from what the setting text is telling us. Edit a handful of fluff sentences in the whole page and a half of spell mechanics in the core book, and you could use those same rules for almost any sort of spellcasting.

Maybe one of the BIG disconnects in this thread, a place where we're talking past each other completely, is right here.

Some people are looking at the spellcasting rules and seeing in them no reflection of the setting material, no sign of how shugenja access "magic", or of their relationship with the elemantal kami, or of their role in Rokugani society. They're looking for an active synchronization, and not seeing anything of the sort, and giving references to show the two things not in sync.

Other people are looking at the same setting and those same mechanics, and seeing no outright contradiction (because frankly it's kinda hard to actively contradict a system that generic), and thinking that the first group hasn't "proven" anything.

Ok lets try this.

To make it clear all things I say are paraphrased and just should show for what you can use the techniques these schools have and how they are actually support the statment that there is not a contradiction in the general view of the Shugenja and the provided rules.

This means Shugenjas here are definded as part Wizard and part Priest. It also means that I don´t go after real life religion but the picture that Rokugan gives me.

So to provide proof for my assupmtion that the Shugenja not only interact with the Elemental Kami but also with other parts of the Spiritual world and this is reflected by mechnics I go trhopugh the books and look that I get a list of exmaples where this is happening.

So you want to have prove for where things other than talking to the elemental Kami (there is a difference in Kami and Elemental Kami) is reflected.

OK so we have the various spells out of the Core book which are named after Fortunes and are actual prayers to these (Things like wrath of the Kaze no Kami or First of Osano Wo etc). So here the Shuegnja interacts with Fortunes and lesser Fortunes and this is reflected by the mechanics.

Out of the core book we have

The Tamori which empahsises the suport role and the ability to help you and provide you with blessings through his postions (CB. 113)

The Litsu Shugenja which is helping with the comunication to your ancestors (CB 113)

The Moshi Shugenja which is worshiping the Sun Goddess and helping with all stuff related to it. So these Shugenja are actually drawing their power from a actual Kami and not of the Elemental Kamis cause they have the blessing of Heaven. So we have the role of the mediators towards the Kami here. (CB. 121)

Than we have the Isawa Shuenja which is best to shows the aspect of dedication and specialisation towards one field of the Elemental Kami worship can bring and best show us the deep understanding of the Elemental Spirts a Shugenja has. (CB 124)

The Agasha in turn are empahsizing the aspect of aquireing knowlegde of a Shugenja and the advangate of Balance in all aspetcs of life which Shugenja should have since their technique is dealing with miltiple Element spells. (CB 125)

the Soshi symbolize the integrity and secrecy of the Shugenja and their teachins with their technique ( CB 127)

While the Iuchi show best that Shugenjas can be helpful when you have a long journey ahead and help you with blessings and support on this way (CB 131)

Than out of the Great Clan book we get

The Kuni Witch hunter: whcih actually interacts with all things which are tainted or shaodwland related and empahzises the role of Shuegnja as the protectors of your spiritual purity. ( TGC P.40 for the mechanics)

Than we have the Toritaka excocist which deals with Gaki, KItsune and Goryo and interact with them as part of their mechanics. So here we see the role of a Shugenja to keep evil spirits away from you (TGC P. 41)

Next is the Yoritomo Shugenja. Which emphasises the guidance and blessings of Shuegnjas in connection to the weather and the Sea. (TGC P. 169)

Than we have the Akodo Inquisitors, (which are monks buit also Shuegnja can become this and they actuall have techniques that cna be used for spells). These are people who emphazises the strive of the Shugenja to keep law and tradtion intact so here the Shugenja interact with the Law and the people of Rokugan. (TCG 201)

The Yogo ward masters show that it is also part of the Shuegnja role to be able to protect your home and other important places and they do this with their wards (TCG 229)

Horoiuchi Shugenja. They are interactiing with the true names of all things in Rokugan not only with the elemntal Kami (TCG 257)

OUt of the Imperial Histories 2

The Isawa Sea guard which deals with the protection of the Ships and the blessing of the journeys over the Sea ( IH2 197)

Out of Imperial HIstories 1

We have the Nameless ones. Whic are interaction with corruption and taint and therefore show the aspect of the Shugenjas which cares for the purity of MInd soul and body. (214 IH 1)

Than we have the Moto Death Priest which are actually intracting with the Forutnes of Death and are emphasizing the role of a Shungenja as assitant at the end of your life (241 IH 1)

Out oif the Book of Air.

We have the Kitsu Spirit Leagion which is grating the actual support of the ancestors and therefore again interacting with the ancestors and showing the part of the Shugenja religion which deals with ancestors. (BoA 180)

Oout of the Book of Earth

We have the Kuni cyrstal master which interact with the recource crystal (BoE 195)

We have the Children of Chikushudo. Which clearly interact with the spirts of the realm of animals and also can become one (BoE 196)

We have the Isawa temple Guadian which actually is guarding temples and shows that Shugenja are protecting their knwolegde (BoE 197)

We have the Iuchi Couriers which are dealing with blessingys for a fast journey (BoE 197)

Out of the Book of Void

We have the fading Shadows which are interacting with the NOthing and Shadowspawns and Shadowspawns and show that protection from evil as part of the Shugenja (BoV 183)

We have the void Mystic which is actuall interacting with the void not with some elemental Kami ( BoV 184)

We have the Dragon Channelers which are ofcoruse interacting with the elemental Dragons ( BoV 184)

Last but not least out of the Book of Water

The Acolytes of Snow. Whic are worshiping Yoki no Ona and their magic is based on these Snow Spirits. So they also deal with them in addtion to the elemental Kami (BoW 179)

We have the Kawaru Sages which are interaciton with divination and fortune telling and are showing the assitant for your futuire aspect of the Shugenja. (BoW 179). this also counts for the Seuppun Astologers (BoW 179) whcih are interactiong with the celestial heavens as part of their mechanic.

So this list shoudl show that Shugenja are not only interacting with the elemental Kamis but with a wide Range of the Spiritual field. Yes not all Shuegnja do this equally but there are many who are emphazising a different aspect in addtion to their normal Spellcating.

So in the end I still fail to see where the disconnect is when the rules are actually supportingt hat Shugenja are more than people who are influencing the Elemental Kami.

I am not sure why, but I get the image of someone beating their head on the table in their frustration. A book opened to the page of their answer right there before them.

I think this is the third time I have iterated this in this thread alone. All the information needed to bring shugenja into your concept is already there serving as a guideline. You the storyteller has to shoulder some resoonsibility. You can chisel rules into stone if you wish, but you will lose the beautiful flexibility that currently resides in Legend of the Five Rings.

The more you set things down to systematic mathematical rules, the more flexibility you will lose as a storyteller. Well that is my two koku on the subject. Then again, I saw nothing wrong with the way shugenja were presented in the first place. We have a saying where I grew up, "If somethin' aint broke, don't fix it." However for those who do see it as broken, I have also read some good suggestions on this thread. I have liked some of those posts, and even quoted others for emphasis.

I'd like to very gently point out here that as someone who self-avowedly still plays only 1E (three new editions later!) it is pretty likely that your own willingness to put-up-with and make post-hoc adaptations rather than actually updating and upgrading the base ruleset considerably exceeds that of most other gamers.

You know, we don't have mods anymore to step in when we're circling the drain . . . but does anybody in this thread honestly believe we're going to get anywhere useful at this point? 24 pages, and all we're doing is beating our heads against our respective walls. I see no sign that any of us still in here are going to convince anybody of anything they haven't already agreed with; we disagree on too many starting principles and interpretations of the text. And since none of us are in charge of fifth edition*, it isn't like anything we say here is going to have consequences beyond how we're going to run our own games.

(*Except me. I'm in charge of fifth edition by dint of the fact that apparently I'm in the middle of designing it for my own entertainment -- I'm halfway through reworking the entire courtier aspect of the game, and have started on "okay, how would I design shugenja to make their mechanics look more like the fluff?" And really, once I've done that, there's no reason except sanity not to improve the bushi side as well. But nobody has to use my rules unless they like them. You too can be in charge of fifth edition! Bespoke fifth editions for everybody!)

Touche Locust Shell, in a strengths assessment test it was shown adaptability is my strongest asset. My early days of gaming in the late 70s and through the 80s were a string of "wing it" and spontaneous storytelling where I was flying by the seat of my pants. That was exilerating! That is how I got hooked into gaming, and became a gamer/storyteller for life.

Kinzen, I have really liked much of what you have written. Even quoted some of it for emphasis. I also tend to agree with your view of this thread at this point, too many cooks spoil the broth.

You're probably right, we're spending more time arguing about how other people are misinterpreting our arguments than we are about the subject at hand.

I'd create a new thread with my starting premises and principles explicitly spelled out, including things such as this article, some of my prior posts, and your posts here, here, and here, and the direct statement that I am in fact going for something more like the real-world shinto priests and east Asian shamans and so on... but honestly, I worry that we'd just see more than a few posts attacking the starting principles instead of treating them as the "givens" of the discussion in that particular thread.