Your first "Q&A" don't actually relate to each other the way you think they do, which is why I felt comfortable making the post.

Okay. Here is what you originally wrote:

Shugenja are expected to be knowledgable about a wide variety of things, including other spirit realms and other spirit creatures.

That goes hand-in-hand with "being Priests."

But that doesn't mean they are designed to specifically interact with spirits other than kami just because they are shugenja. That is the disconnect, and it's something the previously quoted references doesn't address.

So I provided two separate examples (could have thrown in at least one more, but it was getting redundant and I was out of permitted quotes) of participants in the thread making it very clear and explicit that they know shugenja aren't currently mechanically "designed to specifically interact with spirits other than kami just because they are shugenja," but that they're discussing this angle because they're interested in evaluating whether making a change so that shugenja do have some benefit in these interactions would be good for the game.

Then, because you'd suggested that "previously quoted references"--I inferred from context that you might mean references to the RPG books--"doesn't address" this issue, I provided two examples from earlier in the thread of references to the books that do suggest shugenja have a special insight, and expectation of duty, relating to stuff like the Fortunes, the spirits of the dead, the Tao, etc. Those quotes from earlier posts also make clear that these references may sometimes contradict with, or at least aren't very well supported mechanically by, other parts of the RPG material, resulting in considerable ambiguity.

You now say,

Magic is not required to fulfill the "societal duties" of a shugenja. Magic has nothing to do with it. A Matsu bushi who invests enough skill points into the relevant Lore skills will be perfectly capable of fulfilling the role of the religious leader that is typically reserved for shugenja including being a spiritual intermediary .

"Spirits" in Rokugan usually aren't intangible beings that only special people can communicate with. A Kitsune is considered a spirt - it is flesh and blood. Ditto Ryu. Ditto any number of other examples one could find. And even those spirits which are typically intangible, such as gaki for example, tend to make themselves known to whomever they wish, shugenja or not.

There exists this assumed correlation between shugenja being spell casters and shugenja being spiritual leaders and, really, that's just not the case.

The reality is the fact that they are spell casters leads them to pursue scholarly knowledge related to the kami and other spirits far more than any other would, which gives them a greater insight into these matters. But, again, anyone who puts in the time and effort (and experience point investment) can play the part as well.

That shugenja are capable of communicating with the elemental kami simply gives them an edge that others don't have, much the same way that bushi have techniques that give them an edge over non-bushi in combat, and courtiers have techniques that give them an edge over non-courtiers in politics.

A perfectly fine post in itself, though it doesn't necessarily follow all that closely from your original post, which definitely did not go so far as to imply "Magic is not required to fulfill the "societal duties" of a shugenja." (I actually think that's quite a radical contention, which no one else has yet made!) If the material I reposted doesn't address what you're writing here, well, that's because this is actually another angle, making different claims and raising different questions than what you wrote before. (The mild frustration I felt while writing my post above does not, alas, imbue me with the powers of telepathy or time travel.)

So, kinda new ground at last! Yay! Though again, I felt as I read this like a lot of the foregoing discussion is still going unnoticed. Some of us, right from the beginning of the conversation, have actually talked quite a bit already about the fact that we feel like spirit-human interactions (other than stabbing) for all types of characters are neglected both mechanically and in terms of guidance like GM advice and adventure hooks, and that indeed dealing with this in a thorough way would be a big step toward solving the "shugenja problem" (always inasmuch as one agrees that such a thing exists). Examples: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/ , https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/ , https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/page-3#entry1858944 (a non-exclusive list). So, now that we seem to be in broad agreement that this is or should be the case, any further thoughts on how to actually incorporate it better into the world and mechanical design of the game?

I'll add that when you claim there "exists this assumed correlation between shugenja being spell casters and shugenja being spiritual leaders and, really, that's just not the case," I'm not sure I can really respond well unless you bring in the bits of the books you're thinking of and define your terms a bit more. "Assumed" in-setting, or by real-world readers? "Correlation" as in an observational correlation ("humans who are shugenja are more usually than not also observed being spiritual leaders," which barring a few flashy exceptions I think is pretty hard to argue with), or as in "if A, then B" ("being a shugenja automatically makes you a kind of spiritual leader," for which I think you could make a case either way), or as in an exclusive equation of the two ("spiritual leader = shugenja and only shugenja", which isn't true but I also don't think anyone here has tried to argue it).

As to your second "Q&A," my post is unrelated to the post of yours that you quoted.

"The PCs" are the assumption because that is what we are playing as, so that is how it is going to be relevant to a player.

The longer explanation is that it doesn't have to be "just the PCs" and NPCs will be handling these issues in any area that the PCs aren't handling it in.

The world isn't built around "the player characters will handle this important cultural/social function," - The game is. That's... kind of the point of being a PC, no?

...in response to which I quoted:

-One passage asking whether, if non-shugenja PCs can interact effectively with spirits in a variety of ways, that means non-shugenja all around Rokugan also can and do--and if so, what effect that would have on the mechanics feel of the world the PCs are exploring.

-One passage from an interesting article, discussed a bit in this thread, which suggests that an important element of building a game world that truly feels "magical" is really thinking through all the magical stuff that's going on in the background even when the PCs aren't using the "magic" abilities on their character sheets.

-One passage agreeing that even when magic and magical stuff is part of the game, making sure there's some internal logic is important for maintaining the suspension of disbelief.

And I could have added others, but again, quote limits. So there you go--many participants in this conversation, in their own ways, seem to feel it's important to have a game world that's internally consistent w/r/t magic, and in which what's happening in the game --your or my particular tabletop campaign--also feels consistent with what we've been told about its world. Therefore, just saying "NPCs will take care of this when PCs aren't around" doesn't really help much, because we also need to explore what that actually means in terms of worldbuilding and game mechanics.

Finally, there's this bit of your more recent post:

To answer your quoted post, however: Elemental kami are the only spirits that definitely do not communicate with anyone other than shugenja. Other types of spirits absolutely can, and do, communicate with non-shugenja whenever they feel like it.

As for how that reflects on the setting from a world-building point of view? All of that is already described in the source material. (ie: The day-to-day of Religion and Spirits and how they interact with the world.)

Starting over on something I did several pages back -- references in the RPG books to the role of Shugengja in Rokugani religious life, a role that goes far beyond communing with the elements. The problem is, L5R keeps telling us all this, and then showing us a bunch of spell-flinging samurai who happen to talk to the elements.

The Great Clans , page 51:

"Most of the members of the Asahina live in the family's principle stronghold, Shinden Asahina. This temple complex is one of the great holy sites of the Empire, and every year numerous pilgrims visit it to offer their devotions..."

TGC , page 116:

"...the Kitsu serve as the clan's priests and spiritual advisers, guiding the Lion in worship not only of the kami but also and especially of the ancestors."

TGC, page 182, on the Isawa...

"The family was founded by Isawa himself along with his children, and began as a collection of sorcerers who were also priests of the Fortunes. Shinsei's arrival and teachings allowed the Isawa to seek a more enlightened form of magic, mastering the art of calling on the kami to cast elemental spells. The wisdom of Shinsei challenged the Isawa's competitive spirit, but once they saw the wisdom and power inherent in his teachings they gladly adopted them and happily accepted the Emperor's command that Shinseism be merged with the worship of the Fortunes. Thus was born a tradition of magic and religion that shaped the role of shugenja throughout the Empire."

And page 183 regarding same...

"...furthermore, as guardians of the Tao and home to the first shugenja ever to walk the Empire, they have a legitimate claim to their position as the masters of all matters spiritual."

I'm sure other clans would question that legitimacy.

I'm sure other clans would question that legitimacy.

That's very much beside the point at hand, however, so I'm not going to debate it one bit.

The point is to provide examples of the books telling us that shugenja are involved in " all matters spiritual ", and that the role of shugenja in Rokugan is " a tradition of magic and religion".

Starting over on something I did several pages back -- references in the RPG books to the role of Shugengja in Rokugani religious life, a role that goes far beyond communing with the elements. The problem is, L5R keeps telling us all this, and then showing us a bunch of spell-flinging samurai who happen to talk to the elements.

The Great Clans , page 51:

"Most of the members of the Asahina live in the family's principle stronghold, Shinden Asahina. This temple complex is one of the great holy sites of the Empire, and every year numerous pilgrims visit it to offer their devotions..."

TGC , page 116:

"...the Kitsu serve as the clan's priests and spiritual advisers, guiding the Lion in worship not only of the kami but also and especially of the ancestors."

TGC, page 182, on the Isawa...

"The family was founded by Isawa himself along with his children, and began as a collection of sorcerers who were also priests of the Fortunes. Shinsei's arrival and teachings allowed the Isawa to seek a more enlightened form of magic, mastering the art of calling on the kami to cast elemental spells. The wisdom of Shinsei challenged the Isawa's competitive spirit, but once they saw the wisdom and power inherent in his teachings they gladly adopted them and happily accepted the Emperor's command that Shinseism be merged with the worship of the Fortunes. Thus was born a tradition of magic and religion that shaped the role of shugenja throughout the Empire."

And page 183 regarding same...

"...furthermore, as guardians of the Tao and home to the first shugenja ever to walk the Empire, they have a legitimate claim to their position as the masters of all matters spiritual."

Nothing oif these things stays in contradiction with what the game gives you as mechanic to play a Shuegnj. For most of the things like guide people, Sacntion a Duel, bless the cropses etc you don´t need spells. what you need are prayers and they you just can invent with IC actions and a theology roll. If you want to make sure the the cropsde for example will grow use comune to talk with the earth Kami for example.

Also the interpretation of the TAo does not require any spell or special mechanic. You hvae theology for that. Actually the Theology skill is what represents the priestly side of the Shugenja and since most of the regular duties of the Shugeenja are rather unentertaining it is totaly ok to just say if you need it you have this skill

and leave it with that. Cause blesing cropses is not where the action lies in this system. The action is in social and martial combat and for that you need the spells and mechancis to support the Shuegnja in these siuations.

For what they normaly do you don´t need mechanics cause as soon as the Shugenja is a PC is is unlikely that he will still doing his normnal stuff regularly but goes on an adventure or a special mission for his lord etc. instead.

And it is also hardly relevant cause you don´t go and say and while the glorious adventure of Asahina Ishi and his brave companions is taking a break lets go back and look what happens in Kyuden Asahina with the normal Shuegnja lert visit them

whenthe y meditate when they write things on scrolls when they drink and talk and when they bless cropses. So yeah this will not happen and therefore what the regular duties of you Shuegnja are is not as relevant was you might think cause

you most of the time will not have the time to attend to them during the adventure cause most of the time the reason why you were sent out is far more important than things the local MOnk can also do.

Honestly, I can't even tell what you're saying.

Honestly, I can't even tell what you're saying.

Than I try to make it understandable for you. What I say is that the priest aspect of the Shugenja is allready in the game and is represented trhough the theology skill. You don´t need more cause it is not necassary since the focus of the game is not the day to day activity of the Samurai but epic fanatsy Samurai adventures.

Honestly, I can't even tell what you're saying.

Than I try to make it understandable for you. What I say is that the priest aspect of the Shugenja is allready in the game and is represented trhough the theology skill. You don´t need more cause it is not necassary since the focus of the game is not the day to day activity of the Samurai but epic fanatsy Samurai adventures.

And in a world where the blessings or curses of Fortunes provide concrete mechanical effects, the clans were founded by actual godlike creatures who still interfere with their followers, where the Oracles tap people to be the hands of the Elemental Dragons in the fate of the Empire . . . religion is not the stuff of epic fantasy samurai adventures?

Honestly, I can't even tell what you're saying.

Than I try to make it understandable for you. What I say is that the priest aspect of the Shugenja is allready in the game and is represented trhough the theology skill. You don´t need more cause it is not necassary since the focus of the game is not the day to day activity of the Samurai but epic fanatsy Samurai adventures.

And in a world where the blessings or curses of Fortunes provide concrete mechanical effects, the clans were founded by actual godlike creatures who still interfere with their followers, where the Oracles tap people to be the hands of the Elemental Dragons in the fate of the Empire . . . religion is not the stuff of epic fantasy samurai adventures?

Relgion can be epic but I honestly don´t count the oracles and dragons as religious but as supernatural stuff.And yeah Religion can be epic when you go for an actual trip to Tengoku for example but things like blessing corpse and doing birthday blessings not so much. Sitting in a temle and meditating is hardly epic or fun at all.

What I say is that when something like a theological debate comes up you have you theology skill to help. If someone wants to pray for his marriage you have theology. If someone wants to bless his corpses you have Comune.

You allready have the priestly side of the Shuegnaj as mechnics you just need to see it.

How far these things are involved in your campaign is up to the GM but from thge mechnaics a Shugenja is allready quiet priestly cause he has the necassary things to perform duties of a priest.

And in a world where the blessings or curses of Fortunes provide concrete mechanical effects, the clans were founded by actual godlike creatures who still interfere with their followers, where the Oracles tap people to be the hands of the Elemental Dragons in the fate of the Empire . . . religion is not the stuff of epic fantasy samurai adventures?

Relgion can be epic but I honestly don´t count the oracles and dragons as religious but as supernatural stuff.

A meaningless distinction, I think, in a cosmology like Rokugan's.

And yeah Religion can be epic when you go for an actual trip to Tengoku for example but things like blessing corpse and doing birthday blessings not so much. Sitting in a temle and meditating is hardly epic or fun at all.

Nor is standing guard on a city wall, or riding an uneventful patrol route. Most life for samurai is not epic or exciting: we're telling stories about the times when it is , either because something went wrong with the routine stuff, or because something totally not routine has happened.

I'm sure other clans would question that legitimacy.

That's very much beside the point at hand, however, so I'm not going to debate it one bit.

The point is to provide examples of the books telling us that shugenja are involved in " all matters spiritual ", and that the role of shugenja in Rokugan is " a tradition of magic and religion".

People not get jokes in this internet age? Besides the higher glory "priest" would be the one who gets heard the most (not counting sneaky courtiers), not counting someone who convinced an official that another path might be the better option. BUT I suppose the shugenja in question could just argue against the choice?

I'm sure other clans would question that legitimacy.

That's very much beside the point at hand, however, so I'm not going to debate it one bit.

The point is to provide examples of the books telling us that shugenja are involved in " all matters spiritual ", and that the role of shugenja in Rokugan is " a tradition of magic and religion".

People not get jokes in this internet age? Besides the higher glory "priest" would be the one who gets heard the most (not counting sneaky courtiers), not counting someone who convinced an official that another path might be the better option. BUT I suppose the shugenja in question could just argue against the choice?

Nah man, internet forums are where you massage your own ego and prove everyone else wrong!

And in a world where the blessings or curses of Fortunes provide concrete mechanical effects, the clans were founded by actual godlike creatures who still interfere with their followers, where the Oracles tap people to be the hands of the Elemental Dragons in the fate of the Empire . . . religion is not the stuff of epic fantasy samurai adventures?

Relgion can be epic but I honestly don´t count the oracles and dragons as religious but as supernatural stuff.

A meaningless distinction, I think, in a cosmology like Rokugan's.

And yeah Religion can be epic when you go for an actual trip to Tengoku for example but things like blessing corpse and doing birthday blessings not so much. Sitting in a temle and meditating is hardly epic or fun at all.

Nor is standing guard on a city wall, or riding an uneventful patrol route. Most life for samurai is not epic or exciting: we're telling stories about the times when it is , either because something went wrong with the routine stuff, or because something totally not routine has happened.

Nothing is meaningless. And making a difference between what fall under what category is very important in a discussion cause it is the basis for the sucess. Without clear definitions of words and meanings etc disucssion will get complicated and most of the time fail to reach

what they want cause people are taling abotu different things but use the same words.

Also nobody says to the samurai he should become more of a guard or a train his swordfight more.

Thing is people talk about Shuegnja have to get more priestly cause they claim that the mechanics does not cover this. What I say is that this is not true there the different Lore skills and the Theology skill which all cover the different priciples of the priest spheres for Shugenjas. In addtion there is the Medium advanatge which lets the Sugenja speak with all Spirit realms. To support this there is also the commune spelll, some water divination/heal spells and ofcourse Void spells that can be used for priest stuff. So there are mechanics you can use to make your Shugenja more like a Priest you just have to use them.

When the heck did the focus of the game become 100% " epic samurai fantasy adventures " and nothing else?

Many people disagree, and would say that the focus of L5R is "samurai drama", or "pan-Asian mythological stories" or any one of a number of other things.

And in asserting that the focus is "epic samurai fantasy adventures", you're throwing out:

* campaigns that focus on tense interpersonal drama in the tight confines of the courtly world.

* supernatural-mystery and horror-based campaigns.

* campaigns about wandering ronin who have to balance honor, their sense of justice, and their empty pockets.

* light-hearted campaigns, maybe focusing on a comedy of courtly errors

* non-samurai campaigns about all the other people who make the empire go, while going unnoticed by daimyo and such

* any other sort of campaign that doesn't revolve around yet again saving the world from yet another world-ending threat, while throwing around world-changing powers

And how the heck would L5R be nothing but "epic samurai fantasy adventures" actually rule out the need for a well-developed and internally consistent world? And mechanics that mesh well with that world?

Read page 161 of the base 4th edition book, the sections "Spell Casting Rolls & Spell Target Numbers" and "Actions & Casting Time".

Those two sections form the bulk of the spell casting mechanics presenting in the entire book (the roll for spellcasting is presented in a small subjection on dice roles eariler in the book, and there's the explanation on Affinities and Deficiencies on 162), and the only two references to the elemental kami are entirely fluff , and could easily be replaced with entirely different fluff about what's happening when casting a spell.

The mechanics themselves could just as easily represent a spell-caster directly invoking and shaping otherwise inanimate elements through his own force of will and hard earned knowledge.

The sense, summon, and commune spells actually deal with the kami and mention them, although quite a few of the spells make no mention at all of the kami, instead referring to the element in a more abstract way.

Oddly enough, there's an actual spell, Fury of Osano-Wo , that's written as a prayer to a Fortune, and not an entreaty to the elemental kami. Therein lies another one of the signs that Shugenja are supposed to be more than just "those guys who speak with elemental kami" and a bunch of "epic spell-flingers".

And here's another one -- Power of the Earth Dragon , which is again not a prayer to an elemental kami, but rather calls on the favor of the Earth Dragon itself.

~~~~

Being able to speak with the elemental kami is not what makes a person a Shugenja, any more than being an exceptional swordfighter makes them a Bushi, or being charming as hell makes them a Courtier. To be a Shugenja is to take on a specific role within the culture of Rokugan.

Ignore this post--copy/paste did not function as planned.

Here is your problem. You are mixing up terms here. Also from my standing you actually proved my point.

Only when it said elemental spirits or elemental Kami are these the elemental kami that shugenja manipulate. Worshiping the elemental kami is meaningless as they are kept in line by the spirit of the tree. Just as The spirit of a person keeps the person's elemental kami in line until that spirit departs.

Also, not the reading. It said things such as As appropriate. Now that is not defined anywhere, Also a spirit of any living creature is not the sum of the elemental kami of that creatures. The spirit of a tree for example is made up of both water, air and other elemental kami. The Tree has a Single spirit. The Kami care not what form they take. It is the spirit of the tree that matters.

Sorry that you put so much typing there but you really missed the whole point and honestly misread the whole thing and assumed that words used differently implied the same thing.

Also, when the current edition does not reference something in any way previous editions do hold precedence. (Especially on things that are not mechanics directly.) Your interpretation is based on a construction that you have created which does not recognize spirits that are separate from elemental kami.

I have no idea what you just said there.

Well, other than the bit about mixing up terms, which... no, I'm not.

I think Bremathon might be referring to my quote-dump about elemental kami and religion from several days ago (since otherwise I'm at a loss too). If so...

Here is your problem. You are mixing up terms here. [...]

Only when it said elemental spirits or elemental Kami are these the elemental kami that shugenja manipulate.

Okay. So with that stipulation in mind, here again is (some of) what I quoted:

4E core book , ch. 1 "Book of Air: The Emerald Empire," section "Religion and Philosopy," third paragraph:

Fortunism is the worship of the Fortunes, the spirits and gods who dwell in Tengoku, the Celestial Heavens, as well as the lesser spirits dwelling in the mortal realm. The Fortunes are organized into a celestial hierarchy, ranging from the Sun and Moon, supreme rulers of the Heavens, down through the Seven Great Fortunes and Elemental Dragons to the hundreds of Lesser Fortunes. The founding Kami of the Great Clans also reside in Tengoku and are worshipped with the same reverence. Below the Fortunes are lesser spiritual beings, such as Ryu (elemental dragon spirits) and Fushicho (phoenix spirits) who sometimes visit the mortal world or dwell there for extended periods of time. Below them in turn are the simple elemental spirits who inhabit all objects in the mortal world. The Rokugani revere all of these beings, from the highest to the lowest, worshipping and appeasing them as appropriate. Thus, when a peasant's lands are afflicted with plague, he will pray to Ekibyogami, the Fortune of Pestilence, for mercy. When a peasant cuts down a tree, he will give thanks to the spirits within that tree, apologizing for the need to cut it down and thanking the spirits for supplying wood and warmth to his family.

So yes, "Elemental spirits," the same ones that help shugenja produce their flashy spell effects, do explicitly make the list of numinous beings which are "revered," "worshipped" and "appeased" by the people.

I do see that you wrote

It said things such as As appropriate. Now that is not defined anywhere,

And also:

Emerald Empire (the 4E one)[...] in Ch. 8, "Religion," [...] here's the key graf:

Below the Greater and Lesser Fortunes are the simple elemental kami who are part of everything that surrounds mortals . These kami inhabit every object, every rock, plant, tool, wall, stream, weapon, or mountain in Rokugan. Long before Shinsei showed how these kami were part of the larger Celestial Order, the early Rokugani were already quite aware that the kami were everywhere around them, and they paid homage to them in every part of their lives —a practice that continues unchanged to the present day. When a heimin cuts down a tree to build a house, he offers a prayer to thank the spirit of the tree for providing a roof to his family. He may even thank the spirit of the axe he used to cut the tree down or the kami of the hammer he used to raise the house. When a blacksmith melts iron to forge a sword, he offers his thanks to the spirit of the ore, which will allow him to transform a simple lump of iron into a work of art. The same blacksmith also prays to the spirit of the fire that is essential to complete his work.

If you can find for me any meaningful change in the subject matter of that passage between where it's discussing "elemental kami" and where it describes specific examples of "kami" and "spirits"--in other words, any indication at all that those spirits of tree/fire/ore/etc are not put in as specific examples of the "elemental kami" which have up to that point been the topic of the paragraph, but that in fact there's been a mid-paragraph shift to talking about a different category of spirits--go ahead, but I think you really have to read against the grain to get there.

You seem (if I am reading you correctly--sentences 4-5 of your third paragraph are a little hard to parse) to have a kind of mechanistic view of the elemental kami in which they're sort of like atoms or particles which combine together to form larger, more sapient nature spirits. The problem is that I, at least, don't see any actual support for that in the source material. I'll be happy to read whatever you've got and revise my view accordingly if you'd care to share it, of course!

But until then, I have to say that it seems to me this is an example of the modern scientific worldview coloring interpretations of a fantasy setting (rather as discussed in this article linked earlier , though in this case I think it's being carried well past what's actually intended by the setting's creators).

When the heck did the focus of the game become 100% " epic samurai fantasy adventures " and nothing else?

Many people disagree, and would say that the focus of L5R is "samurai drama", or "pan-Asian mythological stories" or any one of a number of other things.

And in asserting that the focus is "epic samurai fantasy adventures", you're throwing out:

* campaigns that focus on tense interpersonal drama in the tight confines of the courtly world.

* supernatural-mystery and horror-based campaigns.

* campaigns about wandering ronin who have to balance honor, their sense of justice, and their empty pockets.

* light-hearted campaigns, maybe focusing on a comedy of courtly errors

* non-samurai campaigns about all the other people who make the empire go, while going unnoticed by daimyo and such

* any other sort of campaign that doesn't revolve around yet again saving the world from yet another world-ending threat, while throwing around world-changing powers

And how the heck would L5R be nothing but "epic samurai fantasy adventures" actually rule out the need for a well-developed and internally consistent world? And mechanics that mesh well with that world?

It is about epic Samurai adventures since the corebook have spoken about Samurai who excel in their siuations and that players and Gms creating Legenday and msythic tales about Samurai. Thats on Page 10 of the Core book.

To be clear Legendary as I see it is not a word I use for standing guard or playing nobodies who do some minor business. Also the Game is defnietly centered arround the Samurai cause most of the books are dealing with this caste.

Also please note that I said it is about and not it is only about. Despite this game being about epic magical Samurai Legends it still also can be used to play non epic non magical campaigns. This is just not the main focus and therefore less

supported by mechanics.

For you points.

Interpersonal Drama is totaly possible with the epic fantasy approach. Cause you still have the Clans, you still have BUshido and your chars still have feelings so there is plenty of space for Internpersonal Drama.

Supernatural and horror based campaigns also don´t go out of the Window. For e rather etreme example you could go for a Trip to Gaki Do but there is also the taint and other things you can go for.

Campaigns about Ronin also can be still there. Toku is the best example for a epic version. BUt there are also other options you could go for a Ronin Dueling band whos happen to stumble over a Kolat project and

safes Rokugan from destruction etc.

Ok Cmapigns abotu eta and co are not very epic but to be fair this are also not the things Iam woried about when they go out of the window.

Light hearted comedy campaign in court never worked cause the world say no to it. If you fail in court you best get reesigned and worst you get told to commit seppukku so yeah this never worked.

Actually with all the Lore of L5R there are so many potenialy world ending threats that you never shoudl run out of them. In addtion epic campaign does not ahve to deal with world ending threats

it also can for things like the Princer alliance or to revoe the Unicorn curse etc. There are so many ways to make the Game epic without a big bad dude that I see it as to narrow appproach when

you say epic is fighting a world ending threat abd nothing more.

So what I actually favor is a escalating cmpaign which starts normal and than at some point things go very wrong and all wents crazy

Being able to speak with the elemental kami is not what makes a person a Shugenja, any more than being an exceptional swordfighter makes them a Bushi, or being charming as hell makes them a Courtier. To be a Shugenja is to take on a specific role within the culture of Rokugan.

Actually beeing a exceptional Swordfighter makes you a Bushi cause being a exceptional swordfighter means you have time to train with it. The requirement for this time is that you don´t have other duties and are actually allowed to posses a sword which in turn excludes all people who are not Samurai or Ronin. Cause without training time there is no way you are going to be a good swordfighter and without the allowance to wield a sword you are dead as soon as people find out that you have one.

Being able to speak with the elemental kami is not what makes a person a Shugenja, any more than being an exceptional swordfighter makes them a Bushi, or being charming as hell makes them a Courtier. To be a Shugenja is to take on a specific role within the culture of Rokugan.

Actually beeing a exceptional Swordfighter makes you a Bushi cause being a exceptional swordfighter means you have time to train with it. The requirement for this time is that you don´t have other duties and are actually allowed to posses a sword which in turn excludes all people who are not Samurai or Ronin. Cause without training time there is no way you are going to be a good swordfighter and without the allowance to wield a sword you are dead as soon as people find out that you have one.

So all those Courtiers and Shugenja who carry swords had have several ranks in the skill(s) for using them... are also Bushi?

Does that mean that the Bushi who has several ranks in the Courtier skill , is also a Courtier ( the role )?

And are you really claiming that non-Bushi samurai who carry swords are doing something wrong in Rokugan, and will face punishment by death if caught? Why then do so many non-Bushi schools list a sword as part of their basic starting gear?

When the heck did the focus of the game become 100% " epic samurai fantasy adventures " and nothing else?

Many people disagree, and would say that the focus of L5R is "samurai drama", or "pan-Asian mythological stories" or any one of a number of other things.

And in asserting that the focus is "epic samurai fantasy adventures", you're throwing out:

* campaigns that focus on tense interpersonal drama in the tight confines of the courtly world.

* supernatural-mystery and horror-based campaigns.

* campaigns about wandering ronin who have to balance honor, their sense of justice, and their empty pockets.

* light-hearted campaigns, maybe focusing on a comedy of courtly errors

* non-samurai campaigns about all the other people who make the empire go, while going unnoticed by daimyo and such

* any other sort of campaign that doesn't revolve around yet again saving the world from yet another world-ending threat, while throwing around world-changing powers

And how the heck would L5R be nothing but "epic samurai fantasy adventures" actually rule out the need for a well-developed and internally consistent world? And mechanics that mesh well with that world?

It is about epic Samurai adventures since the corebook have spoken about Samurai who excel in their siuations and that players and Gms creating Legenday and msythic tales about Samurai. Thats on Page 10 of the Core book.

To be clear Legendary as I see it is not a word I use for standing guard or playing nobodies who do some minor business. Also the Game is defnietly centered arround the Samurai cause most of the books are dealing with this caste.

Also please note that I said it is about and not it is only about. Despite this game being about epic magical Samurai Legends it still also can be used to play non epic non magical campaigns. This is just not the main focus and therefore less

supported by mechanics.

For you points.

Interpersonal Drama is totaly possible with the epic fantasy approach. Cause you still have the Clans, you still have BUshido and your chars still have feelings so there is plenty of space for Internpersonal Drama.

Supernatural and horror based campaigns also don´t go out of the Window. For e rather etreme example you could go for a Trip to Gaki Do but there is also the taint and other things you can go for.

Campaigns about Ronin also can be still there. Toku is the best example for a epic version. BUt there are also other options you could go for a Ronin Dueling band whos happen to stumble over a Kolat project and

safes Rokugan from destruction etc.

Ok Cmapigns abotu eta and co are not very epic but to be fair this are also not the things Iam woried about when they go out of the window.

Light hearted comedy campaign in court never worked cause the world say no to it. If you fail in court you best get reesigned and worst you get told to commit seppukku so yeah this never worked.

Actually with all the Lore of L5R there are so many potenialy world ending threats that you never shoudl run out of them. In addtion epic campaign does not ahve to deal with world ending threats

it also can for things like the Princer alliance or to revoe the Unicorn curse etc. There are so many ways to make the Game epic without a big bad dude that I see it as to narrow appproach when

you say epic is fighting a world ending threat abd nothing more.

So what I actually favor is a escalating cmpaign which starts normal and than at some point things go very wrong and all wents crazy

So much for "Rokugan your way" and all the variations on the game given at the back of that same core rule book. I guess all those campaigns and GMs are "doing it wrong". Oh well.

Frankly, I think there are people who are conflating their own particular experiences with the game, or things from the CCG, or the over-the-top history of Rokugan, with some sort of prescriptive universal "right way to play" the L5R RPG.

That is one of the beautiful things about Legend of the Five Rings is the flexibility of the game. Legend of the Five Rings supports many storyteller styles to deliver some really dynamic games. IMHO, also has all the mechancs and story examples to provide storytellers with the guidlines to run shugenja, as either priests or more wizardly style.

Back in the 90s I remember our group would rotate whose turn it was to gamemaster. Not just that, but the group would decide which work of fiction would be the history, and fluff for the game. The gamemaster then could chose which game system to use to try to build a game that delivered the style, and feel of the fiction selected. It was definately interesting. Some games flopped, usually because the gamemaster had never read the literature selected by the group, or the game chosen was a poor match mechanicaly to the fluff.

All that being said, I think many of you have given some good insights to the original poster's quandary. Yet this thread has so many tangets, I suppose including this one that I just want to leave with saying,"Remember the rules of any game are simply a guide line. You as the storyteller are the final arbitor of any game. Also the purpose of a game is to have fun. If you and your group are having fun, well jolly good ole chap, you are doing well. If not, then talk it out, and try to determine who is putting fish sticks in your custard.

Being able to speak with the elemental kami is not what makes a person a Shugenja, any more than being an exceptional swordfighter makes them a Bushi, or being charming as hell makes them a Courtier. To be a Shugenja is to take on a specific role within the culture of Rokugan.

Actually beeing a exceptional Swordfighter makes you a Bushi cause being a exceptional swordfighter means you have time to train with it. The requirement for this time is that you don´t have other duties and are actually allowed to posses a sword which in turn excludes all people who are not Samurai or Ronin. Cause without training time there is no way you are going to be a good swordfighter and without the allowance to wield a sword you are dead as soon as people find out that you have one.

So all those Courtiers and Shugenja who carry swords had have several ranks in the skill(s) for using them... are also Bushi?

Does that mean that the Bushi who has several ranks in the Courtier skill , is also a Courtier ( the role )?

And are you really claiming that non-Bushi samurai who carry swords are doing something wrong in Rokugan, and will face punishment by death if caught? Why then do so many non-Bushi schools list a sword as part of their basic starting gear?

Courtier who are going for ranks in Kenjutsu are normaly folloing a suboptimal path cause you actually never want to have a Katana with you cause this would mean you need to defend youself in a Duel wihich is soimething a Courtier want to avoid at all cost.

So when a Courtier is wielding a Katana he either was a Bushi bfore going Courtier and therefore still is one or is counted as one when it comes to the things he is expected to do (which is the reason why Courtier and Shugenja avoid training sowrdmanship).

The major exception is a Fire Shugenja with the Katana of Fire he has probably a high Kenjutsu skill but no Katana cause he wants to use the Fire Sword but is no BUshi cause the identification symbol of the Bushi is missing.

Also you said exceptional Swordfighter which means that the char is so good that it cam to the atention of is lord whcih in turn means hsi lord got sure he will be a Bushi and not a Courtier cause that is how Rokugan works. You are not going to decide for yourself. Your

Lord is saying what you are going to become.

Also the non courtier who are taking courtier are not going to get the Role of a Courtier cause the lord will not risk his representation though people without formal techniques and education. The reason why people take the skills is a clear mechanical one because Courtier and Eitiquette 3 are

the only skills that are not giving you a insight point deficit when you are raising them above 1.

Acutally yes Shugenja and Courtier that are wearing a Katana, the Wakiziashi is nothing you really want to fight with, are doing things wrong. Cause acording to the tradtion a courtier leave his Katana at the family shrine or in the hands of his lord and a Shugenja does not need it cause they are not expected to defend themself

with it but have Yojimbos which do it. The reason is that a Shugenja is so rare and precious for most of the clans that they avoid all possible ways in which he can get him self killed easily and when he has a Katana that means he need to face his duels himself which in turn gets him killed fast against a Duelist who know what he is doing like for example every Kakita.

Also the equipment tables of the classes are actually wrong cause as I mentioned above Shugenja and Courtier at most carry a Wakiziashi and no Katana. So these tables need to be redisinged to represent the reality a bit better than as they do it now.

When the heck did the focus of the game become 100% " epic samurai fantasy adventures " and nothing else?

Many people disagree, and would say that the focus of L5R is "samurai drama", or "pan-Asian mythological stories" or any one of a number of other things.

And in asserting that the focus is "epic samurai fantasy adventures", you're throwing out:

* campaigns that focus on tense interpersonal drama in the tight confines of the courtly world.

* supernatural-mystery and horror-based campaigns.

* campaigns about wandering ronin who have to balance honor, their sense of justice, and their empty pockets.

* light-hearted campaigns, maybe focusing on a comedy of courtly errors

* non-samurai campaigns about all the other people who make the empire go, while going unnoticed by daimyo and such

* any other sort of campaign that doesn't revolve around yet again saving the world from yet another world-ending threat, while throwing around world-changing powers

And how the heck would L5R be nothing but "epic samurai fantasy adventures" actually rule out the need for a well-developed and internally consistent world? And mechanics that mesh well with that world?

It is about epic Samurai adventures since the corebook have spoken about Samurai who excel in their siuations and that players and Gms creating Legenday and msythic tales about Samurai. Thats on Page 10 of the Core book.

To be clear Legendary as I see it is not a word I use for standing guard or playing nobodies who do some minor business. Also the Game is defnietly centered arround the Samurai cause most of the books are dealing with this caste.

Also please note that I said it is about and not it is only about. Despite this game being about epic magical Samurai Legends it still also can be used to play non epic non magical campaigns. This is just not the main focus and therefore less

supported by mechanics.

For you points.

Interpersonal Drama is totaly possible with the epic fantasy approach. Cause you still have the Clans, you still have BUshido and your chars still have feelings so there is plenty of space for Internpersonal Drama.

Supernatural and horror based campaigns also don´t go out of the Window. For e rather etreme example you could go for a Trip to Gaki Do but there is also the taint and other things you can go for.

Campaigns about Ronin also can be still there. Toku is the best example for a epic version. BUt there are also other options you could go for a Ronin Dueling band whos happen to stumble over a Kolat project and

safes Rokugan from destruction etc.

Ok Cmapigns abotu eta and co are not very epic but to be fair this are also not the things Iam woried about when they go out of the window.

Light hearted comedy campaign in court never worked cause the world say no to it. If you fail in court you best get reesigned and worst you get told to commit seppukku so yeah this never worked.

Actually with all the Lore of L5R there are so many potenialy world ending threats that you never shoudl run out of them. In addtion epic campaign does not ahve to deal with world ending threats

it also can for things like the Princer alliance or to revoe the Unicorn curse etc. There are so many ways to make the Game epic without a big bad dude that I see it as to narrow appproach when

you say epic is fighting a world ending threat abd nothing more.

So what I actually favor is a escalating cmpaign which starts normal and than at some point things go very wrong and all wents crazy

So much for "Rokugan your way" and all the variations on the game given at the back of that same core rule book. I guess all those campaigns and GMs are "doing it wrong". Oh well.

Frankly, I think there are people who are conflating their own particular experiences with the game, or things from the CCG, or the over-the-top history of Rokugan, with some sort of prescriptive universal "right way to play" the L5R RPG.

Yeah sorry but no. This is not my version but the version which is supported by the offical sources. The question is allaways waht people can expect from the game. To answer this questions people most of the time go for the offical Canon and other offical sources like the CCG, if it exsists, or the TV show etc.

The picture you get from Rokugan through these offical sources is a pretty epic one and therefore the default picture you go for when discussing it.

Also only cause many people do it things don´t have to be right. A large part of the world was racist (whole europe) and still it was wrong. So yeah even if all GMs of the wordl doing it one way they still can be wrong. The argument of high numbers is no argument at all.

And to be frank I never said it is the onyl way but the default way to play the game. Each person has the freedom to play ihe game according to their vision of Rokugan but the mechanics are written to support the default way and not the way some people think it has to go.

For example the game never was written to be a Tokugawa simulation or a Real Samurai simulation and that is also said by the Designers at page 10 of the Core book. "L5r is not about playing real lfie Samurai."

So yeah the setting was written to play fanatasy Samurai in a magical and mystical world and thats what they aslo say when, as I mentioned in my last post say that "Players and GMs are creating the mystical and legendary tales of Samurai."

So in the end that is not my way but the default way of the book Iam talking about. Most of the mechanics and most of the history and the CCG are supporting this so the offcial sources also go and say the epic way is the default way of playing it.

Yeah sorry but no. This is not my version but the version which is supported by the offical sources. The question is allaways waht people can expect from the game. To answer this questions people most of the time go for the offical Canon and other offical sources like the CCG, if it exsists, or the TV show etc.

The picture you get from Rokugan through these offical sources is a pretty epic one and therefore the default picture you go for when discussing it.

Oddly enough, having read through much or all of the published material for the 4th edition RPG, having played the game, etc... many other people are not forming the same narrow "all epic, all the time" picture you are.