Mind you, he's *right*, but as I already clarified, I was talking about Jigoku specifically, NOT the Shadowlands.

My general point being that I want the *Shadowlands* to resume center position as THE Evil in L5R instead of being merely pawns of the real capital-E Evil of Jigoku.

Who here in this discussion has suggested removing the Shadowlands, or getting rid of the Taint, or eliminating Jigoku?

Me, I have.

I don't want to remove all of the productive things they do. I want something that is better suited to the setting to do them.

I would be fine with no Spirit Realms beyond Tengoku, which is the unassailable and unknowable Pure Land, and just putting all the weird spiritual and magical stuff in the "real world", where it should be.

Impurity, in Shinto, is just a thing that happens -- you get rid of it through ritual purification, but acquiring it is just a totally inescapable aspect of existing in the world. It's original sin, without any sense of wrongdoing. If you can't see at least a glimmer of how to adapt that into a version of the Taint that doesn't involve the existence of Jigoku, you're not trying very hard.

Like, you know that whole thing about Ningen-do being a "jealous realm" that taints anyone who ever touches it, and its taint is mortality? Don't make a new thing in addition to that. Build from that. The Kami who fell from the Pure Land discovered that the taint and impurity of the world would cause them to die. Most of them took pains to avoid getting more of this impurity. Fu Leng dove into it headfirst, and found it did way, way weirder stuff if you let it.

I totally get that, if one wants to make L5R's cosmology more "authentically Shinto".

I'm not sure that's what most people want or what most of us are going for.

I think it has benefits beyond authenticity (which is not inherently good, but is a good way to make sure pieces fit together).

It completely smashes the heaven-hell dichotomy while allowing there to be spiritual and supernatural evil that is nonetheless dangerous because of people's selfishness, indugence, or disharmony. It also, for example, makes the asceticism of monks make more sense as a backdoor to Buddhist traditions of foregoing worldly things (because they are impure). It makes the priestly role of shugenja more important. Makes Tainted bad guys a bit more believable for trying to get power from the thing that every single person has a bit of, instead of trying to get power from the thing that never, ever, ever in the history of their culture has actually given anyone power to do the things they wanted.

This is a game about samurai!

I think this is a core misconception on many people's mind.

Legend of the Five Rings is not a game about Samurai. Samurai are in it, they are a very important theme of it... but the game is not about them. Legend of the Five Rings is a game about Rokugan .

And that includes samurai, sure, but also heimin, hinin, naga, goblins, kami, kansen, other spirits of good or evil intent, yobanjin, etc etc....

The 4th edition book says its a game of fantasy samurai.

My one and only comment on the taint (and we have found yet another big setting sticking point!).

I really like the Radioactive taint, for horror reasons. It represents that fact that awful things can happen to people even when they try and do the right thing. ( I just killed an Oni, what do you mean I have to be secluded away forever now?!?) And I feel this has a place in the game and brings a subtlety to the issue that 'taint by choice' doesn't.

NOW, that being said, I certainly think the game could benefit from more writing about dangers/antagonists/problems/benefits to be found from courting/insulting/areas influenced by other spirit realms. Especially Gaki-Do. Cannibals are freaking terrifying.

I'm going to continue my comments on the Taint, etc on the other thread, so this one can move on.

The 4th edition book says its a game of fantasy samurai.

If people wanted to know exactly where this is, it's on the back of the core book. Additionally, pg 211 " At its core, the Legend of the Five Rings RPG is a game about samurai. Specifically, it is a game about the samurai who serve the Great Clans of Rokugan ."

This is at the beginning of the advanced mechanics section of the book where the writers continue to say that Rokugan is vast enough for different, non-samurai characters like monks, ronin, and so on for additional player options and possible foils.

I'd like to add that this was how the writers for the rpg approached the setting. It is very possible that things might change with it being in different hands. However, at the moment the samurai call the shots in terms of player and character focus.

The samurai have always been the focus.

Great Clan, Minor Clan, Imperial, Ronin, Lost, with the occasional oddball non-samurai (Brotherhood Monk, Ratling, Naga, yadda yadda) presented almost purely for contrast.

You could theoretically play as members of other social orders, but I haven't seen many people yammering away about their awesome peasants campaigns of farming rice and getting abused by samurai.

And while I finally have 4th edition rules to unleash my Yobanjin hordes (mmmmm,Yobanjin!), most gaijin are also essentially unplayable because, as stated in Imperial Histories, L5R really isn't a game about being a not-European traipsing about fantasy-not-East-Asia with gunpowder.

And that is, in no small part, why the shugenja are folded into the samurai caste, rather than being sort of set off alone with the Brotherhood monks being generically pious. It's a fantasy setting, whose magic is so prevalent that the shorthand is "magical samurai."

I see a lot of talk about making L5R more "authentic" in regards to Asian storytelling and mythological conventions- which strikes me as hilarious, since the game has always been about as "authentic" as a California Roll .

Certainly, I've always taken the setting as idealized rather than realistic. Sort of like Indiana Jones versus a regular archaeologist. I suppose you can substitute some Pathfinder stuff if you wanted to get really current and didn't want to talk about that Indiana Jones RPG from West End Games.

4th edition was designed as a response to prior editions tying mechanics too heavily to the CCG plot. So they tried to put in rules for most of the major factions from the ccg and families, etc even if in the current ccg those factions did not exit.

For example: The Snake Clan school prior to being tainted.

4th Edition is a great system, and is great for people familiar to the setting. But... sometimes I think it may have been better to have made space to better explain the setting in the Core book, and moved the advanced mechanics to a second book.

I have never had a problem with multiple books, so long as I have one place to find all the rules on a particular subject.

I keep seeing people talk about how the "worldbuilding" was wrong or L5r was "built wrong" , as if it is some kind of universal fact, which it isn't.

Explain to me how it was built wrong?

The world wasn't "built wrong" at all. In fact, it was built quite well.

The problems with L5R are what I already somewhat outlined above. A combination of bad Brand decisions and silly Tournament prizes has warped Rokugan into something it didn't start out as.

When the CCG decides to "cut out all the fat" and remove non-Great Clan playable options, the fantasy suffers. When people who care about the card game enough to win but don't care about the story at all are given the reigns to make world-changing decisions, the fantasy suffers more. Etc.

So what we were left with is an interesting world in it's own way, but nothing like the one described originally. The fluff of the RPG doesn't match the Fictions. The mechanics of the CCG ignore 50% of the world because "that's not what the game is about."

And Rokugan suffers for it.

Part of me thinks the best thing is to reset the metaplot and start at the clan war, but at the same time there are some awesome things that came out of the CCG plot.

- Tsuruchi, and the Wasp clan.

- The Mantis as a great clan. I think the Mantis are a good foil to the rest of the Great Clans, the only flaw is that the Yoritomo family is overdeveloped, I sort of felt it would have been better if they made the Kitsune the main diplomatic family, the Moshi the main shugenja family, and the Yoritomo as the bushi, with Tsuruchi as the specialized school. ( Especially since the Yoritomo Courtiers overlap with Yasuki heavily. )

- The Tamori, I think the militant crazy shugenja thing is also fun.

God no, anything but "The Clan War But Different This Time!"

I keep seeing people talk about how the "worldbuilding" was wrong or L5r was "built wrong" , as if it is some kind of universal fact, which it isn't.

Explain to me how it was built wrong?

The world wasn't "built wrong" at all. In fact, it was built quite well.

The problems with L5R are what I already somewhat outlined above. A combination of bad Brand decisions and silly Tournament prizes has warped Rokugan into something it didn't start out as.

When the CCG decides to "cut out all the fat" and remove non-Great Clan playable options, the fantasy suffers. When people who care about the card game enough to win but don't care about the story at all are given the reigns to make world-changing decisions, the fantasy suffers more. Etc.

So what we were left with is an interesting world in it's own way, but nothing like the one described originally. The fluff of the RPG doesn't match the Fictions. The mechanics of the CCG ignore 50% of the world because "that's not what the game is about."

And Rokugan suffers for it.

The world was built around conceptions of honor and social class that didn't actually make any sense, regularly required you to believe that families consisting of tens of thousands of people all acted and moved in unison as if they were a single individual, required internal conflicts but made so many obstacles to them they were unsustainable past the Clan War, and most importantly to this thread, told us it was a magical land full of wonder and yet had such a disconnected and anemic conception of the spiritual world and spiritual matters that people believe the guys who talk to the spirits need to be able to fire off devastating magical lasers or else they can't do anything interesting or relevant to protagonists.

L5R was not built on a solid foundation. Over the years, AEG tried to shore up some of the deficiencies and ended up making some of them worse, but they were not breaking things by moving away from some golden perfect standard. The most charitable interpretation was that L5R was built to JUST last through the end of the Clan War (as Wick planned to end the game there and continue with Legend of the Burning Sands), so there were a lot of things that held up just enough to get them through that story, but fell apart once examined.

I keep seeing people talk about how the "worldbuilding" was wrong or L5r was "built wrong" , as if it is some kind of universal fact, which it isn't.

Explain to me how it was built wrong?

The world wasn't "built wrong" at all. In fact, it was built quite well.

The problems with L5R are what I already somewhat outlined above. A combination of bad Brand decisions and silly Tournament prizes has warped Rokugan into something it didn't start out as.

When the CCG decides to "cut out all the fat" and remove non-Great Clan playable options, the fantasy suffers. When people who care about the card game enough to win but don't care about the story at all are given the reigns to make world-changing decisions, the fantasy suffers more. Etc.

So what we were left with is an interesting world in it's own way, but nothing like the one described originally. The fluff of the RPG doesn't match the Fictions. The mechanics of the CCG ignore 50% of the world because "that's not what the game is about."

And Rokugan suffers for it.

The world was built around conceptions of honor and social class that didn't actually make any sense, regularly required you to believe that families consisting of tens of thousands of people all acted and moved in unison as if they were a single individual, required internal conflicts but made so many obstacles to them they were unsustainable past the Clan War, and most importantly to this thread, told us it was a magical land full of wonder and yet had such a disconnected and anemic conception of the spiritual world and spiritual matters that people believe the guys who talk to the spirits need to be able to fire off devastating magical lasers or else they can't do anything interesting or relevant to protagonists.

L5R was not built on a solid foundation. Over the years, AEG tried to shore up some of the deficiencies and ended up making some of them worse, but they were not breaking things by moving away from some golden perfect standard. The most charitable interpretation was that L5R was built to JUST last through the end of the Clan War (as Wick planned to end the game there and continue with Legend of the Burning Sands), so there were a lot of things that held up just enough to get them through that story, but fell apart once examined.

That's perhaps harsher than I'd be, but still.

To me, part of the problem is that once in a while, you can see a modern American myth or misconception about Asia poking through, that dates back to Wick's original work.

So... The Shugenja are the problem that the world is badly build. I'm joking because well... as being said earlier, the discussion is now way off-topic now. I kinda suggest that if the discussion about how the "world is badly build", start a topic about it... I feel like this kind of discussion is heavily opinion-based and will be endless for that.

I kinda suggest that if the discussion about how the "world is badly build", start a topic about it... I feel like this kind of discussion is heavily opinion-based and will be endless for that.

This is pretty much my feeling too

The 4th edition book says its a game of fantasy samurai.

If people wanted to know exactly where this is, it's on the back of the core book. Additionally, pg 211 " At its core, the Legend of the Five Rings RPG is a game about samurai. Specifically, it is a game about the samurai who serve the Great Clans of Rokugan ."

This is at the beginning of the advanced mechanics section of the book where the writers continue to say that Rokugan is vast enough for different, non-samurai characters like monks, ronin, and so on for additional player options and possible foils.

I'd like to add that this was how the writers for the rpg approached the setting. It is very possible that things might change with it being in different hands. However, at the moment the samurai call the shots in terms of player and character focus.

Here's the thing.

If it was a game about Samurai:

- You wouldn't have effective magic (ie.: spells would be just ritual based and largely unusable in the daily adventures of a character, at least in the spectacular way we're used to here). Because it's a game about Samurai, not about fireballs.

- You wouldn't have other realms, because it's a game about samurai and not about the clashing morals and influence from each of those realms.

- Consequently, you wouldn't have the Shadowlands, because they're derived from Jigoku. Spider Clan would also be non-existent (Jigoku+Shadowlands in origin)

- Shinsei + Day of Thunder? Nope

- Supernatural (non-evil) entities wouldn't exist. Speaking of Naga, Ratlings, Kitsu, Zokujin, Kenku...

- The Lying Darkness/Nothing/Shadow Dragon would not exist.

....

And suddenly, you have just defined something like Blood & Honor, instead of Legend of the Five Rings. It's an awesome game, and I fully recommend it... but it has none of those elements I pointed (among others), who are an integral part of L5R - a game about Rokugan, a land that has all those elements and more.

We're in something of a bind here.

"What is L5R?" and "what is Rokugan?" and all sorts of worldbuilding questions all form the "reality" that the game is set in.

Shugengja (or any other "magic using" character type) need to be integrated into the basic fabric and assumptions of the world in a way that exceeds most characters -- they interact with that "reality" in ways that most other characters don't, down at the level of its very fabric.

So, the fictional reality, the magic, and the users-of-magic, all need to be "worldbuilt" together, as threads in that fabric.

The 4th edition book says its a game of fantasy samurai.

If people wanted to know exactly where this is, it's on the back of the core book. Additionally, pg 211 " At its core, the Legend of the Five Rings RPG is a game about samurai. Specifically, it is a game about the samurai who serve the Great Clans of Rokugan ."

This is at the beginning of the advanced mechanics section of the book where the writers continue to say that Rokugan is vast enough for different, non-samurai characters like monks, ronin, and so on for additional player options and possible foils.

I'd like to add that this was how the writers for the rpg approached the setting. It is very possible that things might change with it being in different hands. However, at the moment the samurai call the shots in terms of player and character focus.

Here's the thing.

If it was a game about Samurai:

- You wouldn't have effective magic (ie.: spells would be just ritual based and largely unusable in the daily adventures of a character, at least in the spectacular way we're used to here). Because it's a game about Samurai, not about fireballs.

- You wouldn't have other realms, because it's a game about samurai and not about the clashing morals and influence from each of those realms.

- Consequently, you wouldn't have the Shadowlands, because they're derived from Jigoku. Spider Clan would also be non-existent (Jigoku+Shadowlands in origin)

- Shinsei + Day of Thunder? Nope

- Supernatural (non-evil) entities wouldn't exist. Speaking of Naga, Ratlings, Kitsu, Zokujin, Kenku...

- The Lying Darkness/Nothing/Shadow Dragon would not exist.

....

And suddenly, you have just defined something like Blood & Honor, instead of Legend of the Five Rings. It's an awesome game, and I fully recommend it... but it has none of those elements I pointed (among others), who are an integral part of L5R - a game about Rokugan, a land that has all those elements and more.

None of those fully detract from the l5r rpg concept of fantasy samurai, hence the fantasy word that I (and the writers) used. They are simply elements that may or may not exist in the game as it would up to the GM to decide the inclusion.

None of those fully detract from the l5r rpg concept of fantasy samurai, hence the fantasy word that I (and the writers) used. They are simply elements that may or may not exist in the game as it would up to the GM to decide the inclusion.

I gotta say I disagree with your premise here.

What you describe is a homebrew world that shares certain similarities with Rokugan, but is not Rokugan.

For example: If you don't want your game to have the Naga or Nezumi, you don't have to play with them. You might never see them in the entirety of your players' careers. But they do still exist in the world those characters live in. If they don't, it's hard to call it "Rokugan" any longer.

To me, part of the problem is that once in a while, you can see a modern American myth or misconception about Asia poking through, that dates back to Wick's original work.

I don't understand why this is considered a problem.

To drop a tired line one more time: Rokugan is not Japan (or Asia, if you prefer).

To me, part of the problem is that once in a while, you can see a modern American myth or misconception about Asia poking through, that dates back to Wick's original work.

I don't understand why this is considered a problem.

To drop a tired line one more time: Rokugan is not Japan (or Asia, if you prefer).

But Rokugan has a lot of things that are assumed to work because it is Japan/Asia, that don't actually work, because they were assembled by someone who thought he was copying something from Japan/Asia that worked but did not understand it himself and was not actually copying it.

This has got to stop. Every time flaws in the setting are pointed out, defenders hop from one foot to the other, going from "Rokugan is not Japan! It's heavily Western!" to "Rokugan is a heavily Asian fantasy, you can't judge it by the standards of Western fantasy!" and back. It's tedious and unproductive.

But Rokugan has a lot of things that are assumed to work because it is Japan/Asia, that don't actually work, because they were assembled by someone who thought he was copying something from Japan/Asia that worked but did not understand it himself and was not actually copying it.

... Or, possibly, L5R was designed to be 'just foreign enough' for a western audience (as opposed to Japanese speakers and history buffs), to whom authenticity needn't do more than fill in the blanks between generalised stereotypes. ie; allow people to play fantasy samurai. See changes like Toyoturi / Hoyoturi to Toturi / Hoturi for prominent examples of where authenticity was discarded for snappiness and other reasons.

Picking at Rokugan for being neither perfectly Western nor perfectly Asian fantasy is also tedious and unproductive.

None of those fully detract from the l5r rpg concept of fantasy samurai, hence the fantasy word that I (and the writers) used. They are simply elements that may or may not exist in the game as it would up to the GM to decide the inclusion.

I gotta say I disagree with your premise here.

What you describe is a homebrew world that shares certain similarities with Rokugan, but is not Rokugan.

For example: If you don't want your game to have the Naga or Nezumi, you don't have to play with them. You might never see them in the entirety of your players' careers. But they do still exist in the world those characters live in. If they don't, it's hard to call it "Rokugan" any longer.

The difference is that one is a company putting a named brand on a product to hopefully sell more product. The game and/or content itself may or may not be what individuals believe is the "core" concept of the game. DnD 4th edition is a pretty good example.