Stuff!

The lore definitely doesn't come out and say "Shugenja deal with the elements and don't deal with other aspects of spirituality" (indeed, more the opposite, if anything), it's just that with a few exceptions that's what the mechanics support. And that is at least in some part, as others have pointed out, because of how many spells have been ported over from CCG cards...

Not sure I follow the logic.So forgive me!

Anyone can be visited by the spirit realms, talk with spirits, communicate with the fortunes and pray to the fortunes equally.

The mechanics don't restrict shugs from communing with the above.

Only shugs can commune with kami.

The mechanics restrict non shugs with communing with the kami.

Am I having a brainfart? Because I don't get what this spirit realm thing is about. What is the argument/difficulty with it?

Moto, this is what I sent to a new player who was trying a courtier in the game I am currently in (which has a pretty decent GM)

Sword and Fan

Civility and Etiquette (120 - 121)

How to Not Be A Barbarian (122 - 128)

Conduct in Court (129 - 134)

Cleansing and Purity (134 - 136)

Why Civility Matters (149 - 151)

Chapter Six: Politics Throughout the Year (153 - 186)

Emerald Empire

Gift Giving / Shoji Screen Etiquette (42 - 43)

Chopsticks (46)

Game of Letters (61)

Art of the Insult (100)

Great Clans

Courtly Romance (68 - 69)

Imperial Archives

Courtier Characters in L5R (22 - 34)

This didn't include tea ceremony and macthmaking...

Approx. 80 pages not including the bits spread out or duplicated in the other books.

The shugenja do have much detail in 4th in regards to their unique spell practices.

But I think standard ancestors and fortunes in 4th is mostly in Emerald Empire and Core, about 30 pages tops I think.

If you wanted to include more religion in the game, I would have clear basic benefits laid out.

A new skill: Prayer

Emphais: Ancestors, Fortune (pick one), Appeasement, The Lords of Death...

Mastery: R3: +3 insight, R5: You may raise or lower the TN for spells or spirit effects targeting you by 5. R7: +3 insight.

-> Prayer as an action. Roll Awareness/Prayer (Ancestors or Specific Fortune), TN 30. Free raise to the roll if you are at an appropriate shrine, free raise for an appropriate offering.

This prayer requires at least an hour.

Result: Gain a single free raise to an appropriate action.

-> Appeasement Roll Awareness/Prayer (Appeasement), TN (Varies). Free raise for an appropraite offering.

This prayer lasts an hour. Success allows the spirit to be appeased.

-> Banish/Ward Roll Intelligence/Lore: Theology, or Lore: Spirit Realms, or Lore: Ghosts. TN Varies

This banishes or wards off an evil spirit.

Something like that.

Haha that is mad, and I hope he likes reading!

Not to criticise you, but unless a new player was really super into playing a courtier, Id tell them play a bushi with a bit of court savy, like a crane, to get a feel for a full courtier next game. Despite this though, I think if someone has played something like vampire or werewolf, a lot of the social stuff would come naturally to them anyways. You can gloss over the rokugani specific customs I guess!

But the real problem is that, for whatever dumb reason, the guys who were in charge of the game have gone way out of their way to make everything as much about the Great Clans as possible, and leave everything else (non-human races, minor clans, ronin, spirit realms, etc.) in the dust as "background noise."

If you read back where Kinzen and I are arguing earlier in the thread, I actually agree with her that more "spiritual matters" should be made the norm - that's Rokugan, after all, or it's supposed to be (why we so easily butt heads is where she argues for what should be, I argue for what is ). But I think spiritual matters should be more common for ALL class-types. Samurai, Courtiers, Monks, whatever should be able to interact with spiritual matters - why should they be the realm of spell casting? Make "spirits" more "visible" and you solve most of the problem. Shugenja can remain "elemental specialists" and everyone can expand their "fantasy gaming" in Rokugan. WIn/Win.

What's that there about you arguing for what *is*, rather than what *should be*? :-P

But you and I don't disagree on this point. When I say I want spiritual matters to be a bigger deal and the thing shugenja specialize in, I don't mean that you have to be able to talk to the kami to do *anything* with them. (Just like you don't need bushi ranks to be useful in a skirmish, or courtier training to open your mouth at court.) Just that you have a foundation for saying "here's what you can do without special instruction; here's what you can do *with* special instruction."

To illustrate: in pondering what kinds of things I'd like to see shugenja spells do that they currently don't, I came up with a few possibilities.

* Say that by default, spirits speak the languages of their Spirit Realms, and the intelligent/humanoid ones can learn and choose to speak Rokugani, but don't always. Now shugenja can have spells for understanding those languages and speaking them back to the spirits, or translating their words into Rokugani so that everyone can understand. Bushi and courtiers, however, can still talk to the ones who know Rokugani and speak it voluntarily, leaving room for social interactions that don't require a shugenja's presence, while still making shugenja useful in ways that can't be 100% duplicated with skills.

* Some spirits are or can choose to become incorporeal, at which point they get the usual effects of the Spirit quality. Non-shugenja can hit them, but need jade or crystal or nemuranai if they want to do more than half damage. Shugenja are useful not just because they can hit them with magic, but because you give them a spell that can make the spirit corporeal (with a contested roll if the spirit is unwilling). This helps out in combat, but also has utility outside of it.

* Clearer delineation of Lore skills and how they relate to the spirits. For the purposes of my Togashi Dynasty campaign (where this is pretty relevant, because Owl), I've got five skills for nonhumans: Naga, Nezumi, Five Ancient Races, Spirit Realms, and Yokai. Going through to figure out which critters go with which skill has made it apparent just how much of a mess that aspect of the worldbuilding is. But clean that up, and then you can say that, like Theology, Lore: Spirit Realms is a thing many shugenja study, but nothing stops bushi and courtiers from picking it up. And if you want, you can have spells that insta-ID the realm a creature comes from or even its exact nature.

That's what I've come up with in spare moments; I haven't put much thought into it beyond that, because it would require more ground-up reworking of the setting and mechanics than I really have time for right now. But it gives a sense of what I mean.

You know the part of "here's what you can do without special instruction/..." that you mention, that is EXACTLY how it works already.

Spells also don't come from the spirit realms like tengoku, ningen do, yomi etc. Spells as shugenja "cast" them are basically a set of written down rote instructions telling the kami what to do. They could speak it themselves through conversation, but the spell scroll and the words written on it are nothing more than discussing actions with the kami, they are used for quick communication, as this what spell research has found works fastest, and also for tradition. This is the sole reason for the sense commune and summon abilities. Without them, you would basically have X number of spells you can do, which are written in the book, instead of their being versatility and real communication with the kami to be able to do other tricks that think outside of the box. What you are proposing above, is exactly what exists now.

I feel like you are mixing up the kami of each element with beings from spirit realms. They are magical in nature, but shugenja don't really use them in the same way as the kami. The only thing close to it would be the Kitsu, and that is a specialised thing the lion can do.

I feel like a lot of what you suggest really breaks the lore of shugenja and how magic works in rokugan.

When Kinzen says the following...

But you and I don't disagree on this point. When I say I want spiritual matters to be a bigger deal and the thing shugenja specialize in, I don't mean that you have to be able to talk to the kami to do *anything* with them. (Just like you don't need bushi ranks to be useful in a skirmish, or courtier training to open your mouth at court.) Just that you have a foundation for saying "here's what you can do without special instruction; here's what you can do *with* special instruction."

As it stands, she's right, the worldbuilding is a mess when it comes to this aspect of the setting.

I think maybe I've been indoctrinated from all my years of playing! So a lot of it feels normal to me at this stage, so could you explain to me, from your perspective how the worldbuilding is a mess? Remember to speak slowly, im an old fogey!

I think maybe I've been indoctrinated from all my years of playing! So a lot of it feels normal to me at this stage, so could you explain to me, from your perspective how the worldbuilding is a mess? Remember to speak slowly, im an old fogey!

For all the superficial "rightness", it's too often untrue to the mythologies that inspired it.

Sometimes it feels like a mish-mash of (Japan-heavy) pan-Asian mythology and cosmology and philosophy, with Greek, Abrahamic, Zoroastrian, and South Asian threads mixed in -- and not necessarily in a coherent way.

It can't seem decide if it's good vs evil or order vs chaos or proper vs profane or what... and (see above) it can't always decide if it's based on the duality of Taoism, or the duality of Zoroastrianism... and worse, seems to confuse the two at times.

For all the constant harping on the "unwesternness" of the setting, the writers overall can't seem to escape some sort of unspoken Abrahamic "heaven vs hell" model that ends up lumping all otherworldly activity into either "spiritually proper" or "spritually toxic".

You know, at this point I think I'm tired of repeating myself. I've said at least a dozen times on various threads that I think L5R is inconsistent about what "shugenja = priests" means, that it would be more consistent if it paid better attention to and devoted more development to NON-ELEMENTAL spirits (putting that in all caps because apparently that part keeps getting lost) and other cosmological matters of the type that priests ought to be responsible for, that right now shugenja have virtually zero advantage over other school types when dealing with NON-ELEMENTAL spirits, and that I think many of the issues with mechanical balance could be mitigated if spiritual matters were treated as an equal pillar with combat and court and as a sphere where shugenja can shine but bushi and courtiers can still be useful. That isn't what L5R is right now; I recognize this. It's what I wish it were, because I think that game would be even cooler than what we have.

Unless I come up with something new to say on those fronts, I think I'm done with going around in circles.

I think maybe I've been indoctrinated from all my years of playing! So a lot of it feels normal to me at this stage, so could you explain to me, from your perspective how the worldbuilding is a mess? Remember to speak slowly, im an old fogey!

For all the superficial "rightness", it's too often untrue to the mythologies that inspired it.

Sometimes it feels like a mish-mash of (Japan-heavy) pan-Asian mythology and cosmology and philosophy, with Greek, Abrahamic, Zoroastrian, and South Asian threads mixed in -- and not necessarily in a coherent way.

It can't seem decide if it's good vs evil or order vs chaos or proper vs profane or what... and (see above) it can't always decide if it's based on the duality of Taoism, or the duality of Zoroastrianism... and worse, seems to confuse the two at times.

For all the constant harping on the "unwesternness" of the setting, the writers overall can't seem to escape some sort of unspoken Abrahamic "heaven vs hell" model that ends up lumping all otherworldly activity into either "spiritually proper" or "spritually toxic".

I am pretty sure that good vs evil is a pretty pan-global hallmark or starting point of all religious beliefs. I don't see at all where the abrahimic inspiration is?

Rokugan was originally conceived as a melting pot of asian culture. If you apply it to real life examples yeh, it doesn't make sense anymore, it is afterall a fantasy rather than historical setting.

I still don't get how it doesn't make sense? It isn't "meant" to be something, it is what it is. It is it's own entity, while reflecting influences from history. I mean..Romans (Yodotai) meeting samurai? It doesn't make sense either...but why does it have to make historical sense when it doesn't set out to be so?

I have heard people say things akin to this before, and I think that sometimes because it is so similar to feudal japan in many ways, people forget that it is a fantasy setting and it is not MEANT to be exactly like Feudal Japan. Magic is a real thing, spirits emphatically exist and have an effect, and Polytheism is a reality rather than a belief.

Do you think Lord of the Rings is incoherent or doesn't make sense because while it is alagorical of real life cultures/civilisations/events, there is a cross over of real historical timelines and magic is something that is real?

You know, at this point I think I'm tired of repeating myself. I've said at least a dozen times on various threads that I think L5R is inconsistent about what "shugenja = priests" means, that it would be more consistent if it paid better attention to and devoted more development to NON-ELEMENTAL spirits (putting that in all caps because apparently that part keeps getting lost) and other cosmological matters of the type that priests ought to be responsible for, that right now shugenja have virtually zero advantage over other school types when dealing with NON-ELEMENTAL spirits, and that I think many of the issues with mechanical balance could be mitigated if spiritual matters were treated as an equal pillar with combat and court and as a sphere where shugenja can shine but bushi and courtiers can still be useful. That isn't what L5R is right now; I recognize this. It's what I wish it were, because I think that game would be even cooler than what we have.

Unless I come up with something new to say on those fronts, I think I'm done with going around in circles.

Well I wasn't trying to frustrate you myself, I was just curious what you were saying as I didn't really get it.

To be honest, now that I know you think L5R should be something much different to what it is and has been, I think I understand what you mean. However, I don't think the solution of changing the lore to create smoother mechanics is something I could get behind or agree with.

Just for reference too btw, day to day "preistly" activities is mainly the niche of Monks and the Tao. So I think that is why the books might not show shugenja being so directly involved. There is a cultural/social quirk in Rokugan with regards to this, because many samurai, while respecting Monks on some level, would prefer a member of the samurai caste be available for formal ceremonies, which is where shugenja come in. On the other side of that, it would be unbecoming to expect a shugenja to host a ceremony for peasants, which is where monks come in.

Shugenja, being members of the samurai caste, have duties to complete that are FAR more important and pressing than looking after the day to day running of shrines and temples. This is left to the monks mostly who maintain the more casual day to day things. Shugenja are just for the important stuff.

If you are talking purely from mechanical point of view, then yea, you don't need any special skill to understand and know spirits and fortunes ect, but they are also entirely separate from kami.

This is all ofc my interpretation from my years of playing the game, reading the lore and experiencing all aspects of rokugan (even a lot of burning sands too!). No two people would interpret the setting the same way, doesn't mean either is right or wrong, so if you feel like you are going in circles I think it comes down to this! I hope you don't take it personal to the point of frustration!

I am pretty sure that good vs evil is a pretty pan-global hallmark or starting point of all religious beliefs.

It isn't really, no. In fact, in a surprising numbers of spiritual and religious system, the good vs evil opposition (and specifically, the Heaven vs Hell opposition of the Virtuous spirits and the corrupted spirits) doesn't exist.

All religious beliefs have a notion of "The Right path", but that path doesn't necessarily reflect an opposition between forces of evil and forces of good ; a choice between ending up in Heaven or in Hell.

Certainly the lord of the underworld, even when the underworld IS a place of doomed spirit, is NOT presented as evil in a lot of religions. The Egyptians gods related to death and the underworld are pointedly not evil. Neither is Hades (despite multiple attempt by Hollywood and Disney to recast him as Satan), Even Hel doesn't even make anywhere near the top ten biggest enemies of the Aesir (and she's the only one of Loki's children to sit out Ragnarok)

I am pretty sure that good vs evil is a pretty pan-global hallmark or starting point of all religious beliefs.

It isn't really, no. In fact, in a surprising numbers of spiritual and religious system, the good vs evil opposition (and specifically, the Heaven vs Hell opposition of the Virtuous spirits and the corrupted spirits) doesn't exist.

All religious beliefs have a notion of "The Right path", but that path doesn't necessarily reflect an opposition between forces of evil and forces of good ; a choice between ending up in Heaven or in Hell.

Uh, examples?

Edit: NVM, I re-read what you said, and see the caveat you provided. I mean to say that it is basically the right thing to do and the wrong thing to do, rather than good and evil entities.

EDIT: Ah, yes.

But I think the debate is more centered on the notion of the Abrahamic Hell ; this idea of a realm of evil that is the source of all Bad Spiritual Stuff (which, in the game, is what Jigoku is painted as). And that's something L5R could do without, in my opinion. Jigoku needs to go (or, rather, to be reduced a great deal in importance).

EDIT: Ah, yes.

But I think the debate is more centered on the notion of the Abrahamic Hell ; this idea of a realm of evil that is the source of all Bad Spiritual Stuff (which, in the game, is what Jigoku is painted as). And that's something L5R could do without, in my opinion. Jigoku needs to go (or, rather, to be reduced a great deal in importance).

But what becomes of the setting without Jigoku? The sole basis of the creation story in Rokugan is that you have the brothers & sisters (kinda like the parthenon) and one of them is a baddie and makes his own realm, Jigoku, which is the symbol of his rebellion. It's the starting point of the lore.

Without it, shadowlands and the taint loses all its reason.

EDIT: Ah, yes.

But I think the debate is more centered on the notion of the Abrahamic Hell ; this idea of a realm of evil that is the source of all Bad Spiritual Stuff (which, in the game, is what Jigoku is painted as). And that's something L5R could do without, in my opinion. Jigoku needs to go (or, rather, to be reduced a great deal in importance).

It's not so much that there is a Jigoku -- it's that so much of the supernatural content of the world is recast as somehow connected to it or yet another malevolent realm.

But what becomes of the setting without Jigoku? The sole basis of the creation story in Rokugan is that you have the brothers & sisters (kinda like the parthenon) and one of them is a baddie and makes his own realm, Jigoku, which is the symbol of his rebellion. It's the starting point of the lore.

Without it, shadowlands and the taint loses all its reason.

We can't even seem to get a straight answer on the relationship (and causality) between Fu Leng and Jigoku -- I was under the impression that Jigoku already existed and Fu Leng plunged into it (of course, many of the tales make him out to be a something of a self-serving jerk long before "the fall" ) .

So we have a realm of evil created by the rebellion of one of the prince of heaven, and that's *not* Abrahamic how? :-p

Yeah, they spend maybe... very little on Rokugan cosmology.

But I sort of agree with Kinzen, sort of. Right now shugenja have maybe 3-4 spells that can handle non-elemental spirits all form Earth.

Any bushi can also help with this via Jade and Crystal.

And I do think more solid mechanics on interacting with fortunes and ancestors should be in place... because they DO interact with any samurai.

Shugenja are samurai that can talk with the elemental kami. That is their schtick. But its also the most un-balancing part because being able to talk with the spirit residing in a chair or volcano has all sorts of possibilities.

Shugenja are samurai that can talk with the elemental kami. That is their schtick. But its also the most un-balancing part because being able to talk with the spirit residing in a chair or volcano has all sorts of possibilities.

That's only as unbalanced as the GM makes it. Like everything else in a rpg. Some systems can simply add in a relatively easy set of base rules (i.e. determine kami's mood and characteristics then X skill to interact with it).

EDIT: Ah, yes.

But I think the debate is more centered on the notion of the Abrahamic Hell ; this idea of a realm of evil that is the source of all Bad Spiritual Stuff (which, in the game, is what Jigoku is painted as). And that's something L5R could do without, in my opinion. Jigoku needs to go (or, rather, to be reduced a great deal in importance).

But what becomes of the setting without Jigoku? The sole basis of the creation story in Rokugan is that you have the brothers & sisters (kinda like the parthenon) and one of them is a baddie and makes his own realm, Jigoku, which is the symbol of his rebellion. It's the starting point of the lore.

Without it, shadowlands and the taint loses all its reason.

So make a new reason.

Don't say that because AEG-L5R did it this way with this thing, our only options are to do it that same way or not do it at all. AEG-L5R did a lot of things badly!

The Shadowlands doesn't have to be the source of all evil, it just has to be something dangerous and able to be used with malicious intent. There doesn't have to BE a source of all evil. Jigoku causes a lot of damage to the setting's ability to do what it needs to do, and everything it contributes can be done better by something else.

Shugenja are samurai that can talk with the elemental kami. That is their schtick. But its also the most un-balancing part because being able to talk with the spirit residing in a chair or volcano has all sorts of possibilities.

That's only as unbalanced as the GM makes it. Like everything else in a rpg. Some systems can simply add in a relatively easy set of base rules (i.e. determine kami's mood and characteristics then X skill to interact with it).

It has the benefits and drawbacks that Mage: TA has except you also have Bushi which have rather fixed powerlevels and fixed determined things they can do. And courtiers which are sort of like social shugenja. Depending on the GM it can run the gamut of extremes: Mind control to... utterly useless.

Not to mention it has the potential to cause party drift like Shadowrun. If a role is too specialized it means either the character can't do anything or when he needs to do something the other players get a pizza.

Granted 4th edition is rather "balanced", the designers themselves chose fidelity to the setting over balance. Many schools just were not as good as other schools; it was done on purpose to reflect the the strengths and weakness of families and clans.

Well, thats partly why I thought of removing most of the Shadowlands stuff to a different core book. You are right, the cosmic horror aspect of L5R is almost a game into itself.

Thats part of the argument here; there are a bunch of people even on these forums that have no interest in the supernatural side of L5R. Thats why my initial suggestion was to just put all the supernatural stuff and shugenja in one book and put the rest in the other.

Well, thats partly why I thought of removing most of the Shadowlands stuff to a different core book. You are right, the cosmic horror aspect of L5R is almost a game into itself.

Not as a direct response to you, but rather because you reminded me of something I was going to say earlier.

One of the ways that existing L5R's handling of the supernatural seems off is that it far too easily falls into "supernatural = horror".

Well, that is core to the setting in many ways. If you discount the fact that the CCG has a world catastrophe every week... supposedly a typical Samurai almost never encounters a ghost or an angry fortune. He prays to his ancestors, the fortunes; attends the yearly rituals; but doesn't hear the kami. And hopes his ancestors look favorably on his actions. The mantis, just assume Osano-Wo is blessing them when they set sail in the middle of a furious storm.

Anything returning from death; is horror. Not just in a macabre sense... but for a people that sacrifice personal desire and happiness for duty in the hopes of reincarnation; the idea of being trapped in a rotting corpse; or stuck as a ghost is horror. Hence they can't speak of it; and avoid those who must deal with it.

And yes; in some ways because its so easy to put shugenja effects as magic spells, some of the wonder is lost in terms of the kami. The fictions suggest shugenja tend to be a bit... odd because the kami always talk to them. The system is woefully inadequate for portraying a class of people that just happen to hear things from thin air.

And no... normal kami is supposed to be wondrous, a miracle. Part of the reason I try when allowed to play the Fox is because their rapport with the kitsune spirits holds a bit of that wonder.

Anything returning from death; is horror. Not just in a macabre sense... but for a people that sacrifice personal desire and happiness for duty in the hopes of reincarnation; the idea of being trapped in a rotting corpse; or stuck as a ghost is horror. Hence they can't speak of it; and avoid those who must deal with it.

Actually, most forms of the undead are scary because they look scary, and there isn't much else to see there. IIRC, only ghosts have souls, every other undead are just corpses animated by the kansen - they are just bodies, but the soul from that body is already gone.

Well, thats partly why I thought of removing most of the Shadowlands stuff to a different core book.

The Shadowlands needs to be in the corebook. I'll say that again. The Shadowlands needs to be in THE corebook. I focus on "THE" because a lot of people really enjoy the fact that L5R has a great corebook. One and only corebook that allows you do play lots of campaigns without any needs for supplements. Do I want a game with 2 or 3 corebooks? Nope. Even if I have almost all supplements of the 4th edition, I want a single corebook. I bought the supplements because the corebook was very well done. It has everything I needed for several campaigns. When there's more than a corebook, I kinda pass that game, because I don't want to bring all the corebooks when I'm traveling to a friend's house. I think that a game with more than one corebook is a poorly designed game, that's my opinion on multi-corebooks games.

Now for the part that I say that Shadowlands needs to stay, that's simple, because if you remove it, you basically removes a lot of the game. The Crabs, in particular. Their main focus is about protecting the Empire from the Shadowlands... The Carpenter Wall has been created in the year 516 and since the CCG first set was the Clan War, we cannot say that the CCG created the "Big deal with Shadowland". Removing Shadowlands, also means to remove Crabs from a certain point of view. By removing, I mean give it less importance. That would still mean that the Crab has barely no purpose. If the Shadowland is removed from the core, then I don't see why Crabs needs to stay core. They are in constant warfare.

L5R is a game of Samurai Warfare surrounded with supernaturals and outsiders. This is the game. Does it mean that a Storyteller have to includes everything in a campaign, of course not! That's just plain stupid. I'll bring the Challenge Focus Strike in this, because after reading it, there's very few that pinpoints anything supernaturals. Why? Because it was made to be generic to let the Storyteller decides if it has any supernatural influences. The emphasis of a supernatural threat is made by no one but Storytellers. Why? because it's the "Main Evil Baddies" of the setting. But does it has to be the main antagonists of a campaign. Of course not. What stops a Storyteller to place a Clan as an antagonist? Nothing, the game even encourages that through war between Clans. How many wars between Clans there's in the Setting? A whole lot. I think there's even more wars between Clans than huge threats like the Oblivion Gate, Iuchiban, Destroyers War, etc. There's also a lot about this in the corebook. There's even a lot of stuffs about Gaijins.

As I have said elsewhere many times, I see the core stories of Legend of the Five Rings falling into three narrative pillars: the high octane, sword-fighting Action-Adventure; the graceful and subtle Courtly Intrigue; and the strange and dangerous Supernatural Fantasy. The Shadowlands are very much one of the cornerstones and fundamental elements of that last pillar. They need to be incorporated into the game from the very start, though not inherently as a fully playable faction or anything like it.

The Core Book should have what is needed to make Shadowlands monsters good adversaries and threats. Beyond a discussion of what they are, we would needs game stats on goblins, ogres, trolls, undead, and example Oni. We should also have rules for Maho and Shadowlands powers, as these are things that Tainted opponents can use to get a surprising edge.

Finally? Shugenja should be THE go to in dealing with anything Shadowlands related. Yes, Crab bushi should be good at fighting the monsters, but if you are dealing with a true Shadowlands threat? You need a shugenja. See Onmyouji for more information.

I cannot for the life of me understand why someone would think it would be a good thing to remove the shadowlands and the taint from l5r. It has been the source of some of the best fiction the story has had. It is no coincidence that the absolute worst time of l5r storyline was when they watered down the taint to choice based and made it so shadowlands were not a threat anymore. The crab clan in particular really lost a lot of their identity due to that. I know people, myself included, who have given 15-20 years to this game, and the time they became most disinterested with the story, and felt like it was just of no consequence was the whole taint pact. It was a really big mistake, and one that seems like it was about to be reversed.

Why you would want to take the single most monumental failure of the l5r story arch, and extend it even further is totally beyond me! The Diet-Taint project failed pretty emphatically, I sure hope that FFG's L5R team have recognised that.

I cannot for the life of me understand why someone would think it would be a good thing to remove the shadowlands and the taint from l5r. It has been the source of some of the best fiction the story has had. It is no coincidence that the absolute worst time of l5r storyline was when they watered down the taint to choice based and made it so shadowlands were not a threat anymore. The crab clan in particular really lost a lot of their identity due to that. I know people, myself included, who have given 15-20 years to this game, and the time they became most disinterested with the story, and felt like it was just of no consequence was the whole taint pact. It was a really big mistake, and one that seems like it was about to be reversed.

Why you would want to take the single most monumental failure of the l5r story arch, and extend it even further is totally beyond me! The Diet-Taint project failed pretty emphatically, I sure hope that FFG's L5R team have recognised that.

"I cannot for the life of me understand why someone would think it would be a good thing to get off heroin. Heroin's been the source of the some of the best experiences of my life, and it is no coincidence that the absolute worst times of my life were when I could not get any heroin for a long time."

Obviously the analogy isn't perfect -- good stories with the Shadowlands are legitimately good, and not just tricking you into thinking they are good the way a drug tricks you into a positive experience -- but I hope you get my point. Something creating good outcomes in one area doesn't mean it isn't causing damage in other areas, and your disinterest in the story when the Taint became less of a threat doesn't necessarily mean that the Taint is central to good storytelling. I argue, and others argue, that it means the setting was built wrong, and that the Taint is harmful to it, but because it was built wrong the Taint is also a load-bearing pillar. The solution is not to keep the Taint, the solution is to build a new structure that does not require all the bad things about Taint to be a load-bearing pillar.