Regarding duels, it seems to me that it's just a result of the fact that it's supposed to be 1-on-1, with no outside help whatsoever, magical or otherwise. But court isn't 1-on-1, so applying the same restriction isn't intuitive.

I think it's more than that. A duel is supposed to decide who is right . Now, there are problems with that concept -- from a game perspective, it's obvious that "I'm right and you're wrong" has zero mechanical effect, while "I'm a Kakita and you're not" has a lot -- but that's the idea. Once you ask the kami to help out, though, you are blatantly acknowledging that the deciding factor will not be who's right and who's wrong; it will be who has more advantages in his favor. There is no way you can allow magic in a duel and maintain the fiction of what a duel is supposed to represent.

Court is the exact same. I think there is a misconception of a lot of people as to what "court" is in Rokugan. It is mostly a place of challanges,

Uh, what?

As in my previous comment, I have to ask: what's your basis for this statement? L5R fictions? Because I've done quite a lot of reading about historical societies, Japan included, and boiling everything down to "it's one on one fights" is not anywhere close to a good description of what court is really like. The notion that doing stuff there is comparable to the sacred, ritualized space of a duel, the tool by which Tengoku supposedly makes it clear who is in the right, is absolutely croggling to me -- as Fumi said, it's more like a skirmish, if we're going to make a comparison to a fight. And nobody has ever suggested that it's dishonorable or inglorious to use spells in that kind of combat. Even if we take your framing of court: why is it okay to supernaturally interfere with your bushi friend's physical fight against another bushi, but not okay to supernaturally interefere with your courtier friend's verbal fight against another courtier?

My guess is s/he got it from the fictions. But I've always assumed those 1-on-1 depictions of court were due to literary convenience, rather than reflecting what actually occurs. Basically it's an Economy Cast , due to the fact that they only released at most 1 or 2 courtiers per clan per set (and significantly less than that for some clans).

Regarding duels, it seems to me that it's just a result of the fact that it's supposed to be 1-on-1, with no outside help whatsoever, magical or otherwise. But court isn't 1-on-1, so applying the same restriction isn't intuitive.

I think it's more than that. A duel is supposed to decide who is right . Now, there are problems with that concept -- from a game perspective, it's obvious that "I'm right and you're wrong" has zero mechanical effect, while "I'm a Kakita and you're not" has a lot -- but that's the idea. Once you ask the kami to help out, though, you are blatantly acknowledging that the deciding factor will not be who's right and who's wrong; it will be who has more advantages in his favor. There is no way you can allow magic in a duel and maintain the fiction of what a duel is supposed to represent.

(Since it was actually me who said that, not Moto, I'll respond)

You're right, there is a lot of cultural baggage attached to duels, and the "decides who is right" aspect of it might also be in play. Do the rulebooks ever explicitly state why magicking up a duel is dishonorable? Because so far, three people in this thread have chipped in on the subject, and every one has a different interpretation as to the reason.

You've also got me thinking about how you would go about giving mechanical benefits for being right, but that's really tangential to the thread, so I'll leave it alone.

Regarding duels, it seems to me that it's just a result of the fact that it's supposed to be 1-on-1, with no outside help whatsoever, magical or otherwise. But court isn't 1-on-1, so applying the same restriction isn't intuitive.

I think it's more than that. A duel is supposed to decide who is right . Now, there are problems with that concept -- from a game perspective, it's obvious that "I'm right and you're wrong" has zero mechanical effect, while "I'm a Kakita and you're not" has a lot -- but that's the idea. Once you ask the kami to help out, though, you are blatantly acknowledging that the deciding factor will not be who's right and who's wrong; it will be who has more advantages in his favor. There is no way you can allow magic in a duel and maintain the fiction of what a duel is supposed to represent.

Court is the exact same. I think there is a misconception of a lot of people as to what "court" is in Rokugan. It is mostly a place of challanges,

Uh, what?

As in my previous comment, I have to ask: what's your basis for this statement? L5R fictions? Because I've done quite a lot of reading about historical societies, Japan included, and boiling everything down to "it's one on one fights" is not anywhere close to a good description of what court is really like. The notion that doing stuff there is comparable to the sacred, ritualized space of a duel, the tool by which Tengoku supposedly makes it clear who is in the right, is absolutely croggling to me -- as Fumi said, it's more like a skirmish, if we're going to make a comparison to a fight. And nobody has ever suggested that it's dishonorable or inglorious to use spells in that kind of combat. Even if we take your framing of court: why is it okay to supernaturally interfere with your bushi friend's physical fight against another bushi, but not okay to supernaturally interefere with your courtier friend's verbal fight against another courtier?

Read the Winter Court RPG books (I think there are 3, it is either 1st and 2nd edition). It is all detailed there.

Furthermore the part where courtiers go to "court" and end up in open debate is not only a very small section of what the various courts consist of (Ivory court, winter court, summer court etc) but is only a part that is reserved to the highest ranking members of clans, so it isn't something that random Bayushi Bob gets invited to.

Each court, for example the Winter Court is just a time of festival where people from across clans gather in the same place, people often confuse it with our modern perception of courts, where it is a discusson of law, in Rokugan it is to build relations and prevent wars not the modern perception of litigation.

When all the clans are gathered, it is the perfect opportunity to socialise with, and partake in challenges with members of other clans, this is when and why so many personal challenges take place, sadane for example, being one. If your clansman, was partaking in a sadane challenge against a crane, and you were to use magic to help them win the challenge, it isdishonorable behaviour.

To do so would be breaking both Honor, and Courage. Honor because presumably the other party has not been informed that a shugenja is using magic to aid him, and courage because he is lacking the courage to take on the task alone.

Do the later books interpret the role of court differently? Probably. I personally use the experience and resources that I have built up over the last 15-20 years to establish the picture of rokugani culture. If someone is only reading from 4th ed, where there is little to no mention at all of the concept of personal contests, then they are going to have a different view to me, who pretty much established his view on the courts and systems from earlier editions.

There is also the matter of people thinking it is ok to use magic to manipulate social outcomes if you don't get caught. How am I to know, if bayushi bob isnt on awareness steroids from soshi steve? The answer is, it doesn't matter. A samurai doesn't refrain from doing something for fear of getting caught, but only because it is the right thing to do.

- Think for a moment, if a seppun saw a shugenja obviously casting an air spell on his clansmen who was speaking to the Emperor,Would this be acceptable?

Read the Winter Court RPG books (I think there are 3, it is either 1st and 2nd edition). It is all detailed there.

Right, so we're back to "read this out of print book that came out a decade or more ago." For anyone who came to L5R more recently, those books are not going to be part of what shapes their perception of the setting and the game -- nor should anybody expect it would be.

Furthermore the part where courtiers go to "court" and end up in open debate is not only a very small section of what the various courts consist of (Ivory court, winter court, summer court etc) but is only a part that is reserved to the highest ranking members of clans, so it isn't something that random Bayushi Bob gets invited to.

So when you say magic is not permitted in court, do you mean only that tiny subset where two high-ranking people face off in debate? Because that isn't what it has sounded like so far -- but I think you'd have a much more defensible point if that's what you mean.

Each court, for example the Winter Court is just a time of festival where people from across clans gather in the same place, people often confuse it with our modern perception of courts, where it is a discusson of law, in Rokugan it is to build relations and prevent wars not the modern perception of litigation.

I never suggested it was like modern judicial court; in fact, if anything I was arguing to the contrary. You were the one who framed it as "one-on-one challenges," while I was saying that court consists of a whole lot more than that. I could see a custom that says "no magic in judicial-type situations," for the same reasoning I gave for magic not being allowed in duels (both are theoretically meant to determine the "truth," which doesn't need magic to win out). But when we're talking about court in the "social venue for influential people wherein political business gets conducted" sense -- which is what I mean by the word -- I don't see why it should be verboten.

When all the clans are gathered, it is the perfect opportunity to socialise with, and partake in challenges with members of other clans, this is when and why so many personal challenges take place, sadane for example, being one. If your clansman, was partaking in a sadane challenge against a crane, and you were to use magic to help them win the challenge, it isdishonorable behaviour.

To do so would be breaking both Honor, and Courage. Honor because presumably the other party has not been informed that a shugenja is using magic to aid him, and courage because he is lacking the courage to take on the task alone.

So why is it not an equal violation of Honor and Courage to use magic to buff your bushi companion in a skirmish? You haven't informed the other side that you're using magic, and you're suggesting the bushi isn't courageous enough to trust in his own strength. It's the exact same thing -- but you're saying that one is okay and the other is not.

- Think for a moment, if a seppun saw a shugenja obviously casting an air spell on his clansmen who was speaking to the Emperor,Would this be acceptable?

I would say that Seppun would not allow the spell for the same reason he wouldn't allow a drawn weapon anywhere near the Emperor: because it's an issue of security.

Shugenja are indeed extremely out of line with the power curve on schools, but I don't think the problem is exactly the idea that they get illusions and fireballs.

Shugenja combat spells, while interesting, are not actually all that practical in combat. While they tend to automatically hit, and it is possible to cast them relatively quickly, their damage tends to lag behind and a shugenja in a fight is going to be more valued for their ability to apply area of effect damage. Even their ability to apply certain debuffs isn't exactly valuable, as an Akodo Bushi can knock you down and disarm you as easily as an earth or air spell, and ninja are much better at applying the stunned condition than a shugenja.

Illusions and detection magic also aren't exactly silver bullets in this setting, and they most certainly do not replace a courtier. You can't even cast these spells within a courtly setting without giving yourself away or losing honor attempting to make a stealth check to cast silently versus quite a few characters with very high investigate, and air doesn't exactly get a charm person equivalent anyway.

The issue I found with Shugenja is that their utility options outpace school techniques by a wide margin. This doesn't have to be a bad thing, school options being the most powerful aspects to your character tend to make every character of one school very similar, but the problem is that the only school that gets access to options that strong are shugenja. A loremaster may get a small 1k1 boost to their lores as a technique, but a rank 1 shugenja can get +3k3 to all intellect based tasks pretty much at will. Crab bushi reduction is nice but earth has access to long term reductions that will last you for a whole battle and then some which are larger. Add to that the ability to stack these effects with generic dicepool bonuses and re-rolls and the Shugenja isn't just able to smash reality with powerful prayers to the kami, but out preforms most classes at what they are supposed to be good at, at least at early ranks.

I don't even think it would be possible to balance Shugenja spells against Bushi or Courtiers in any fun manner without dramatically re-working how those two classes view experience. Linking spells to TNs rather than insight rank arguably makes the problem worse, and forcing one to buy spells with experience points both distrupts lore and could fail to solve the problem as well. And just nerfing the buffs wouldn't be satisfying, because in lore a Shugenja is meant to be an awe-inspiring force, a +3 boost to intellegence or allowing a warrior's skin to turn away blades is perfectly appropriate for a middling Shugenja to grant.

The main issue is that nothing about non-shugenja characters is particularly impressive or special. At the moment the main advantage courtiers and bushi have on shugenja is that their rings matter less to them in general and they can afford to get a broad skill base and lots of masteries, but the mastery system is rather weak overall and doesn't begin to match the power of a shugenja's spells. If masteries were better and more flexible, and seen as as important as school techniques, then things might be different, because it creates a scenario where the shugenja just can't keep up trying to have it all and has much more incentive to act in a manner that aids their companions. Buffs, the main lore application of shugenja spells, only become valuable to place on other people when they are noticably more suited towards the boon than you.

And I do agree with you! this kind of stuff is not really fleshed out in 4th ed.

And that is ALL that matters.

(Emphasis added.)

Read the Winter Court RPG books (I think there are 3, it is either 1st and 2nd edition). It is all detailed there.

Right, so we're back to "read this out of print book that came out a decade or more ago." For anyone who came to L5R more recently, those books are not going to be part of what shapes their perception of the setting and the game -- nor should anybody expect it would be.

For emphasis, that last part bears repeating -- nor should anybody expect it to be .

Anything from previous editions of the game is interesting apocrypha, and that's all.

Ok...so first: I didn't read all 30 pages...but I skimmed through the last few...and I have to say the following:

I started playing L5R with the 4th Edition. I got no information whatsoever from my first GM about the system only the link to the L5RCM and the Corebook. I created my Isawa-Shugenja from the Agasha-Family and played with the group and it was fun.

So I bought the Corebook and read it. Up until now I didn't read any of the old sourcebooks, except for the Ryoko Owari-book. I didn't even read all the books from 4th, or rather not every page. Still I remember that I read somewhere something about it would be unseemly to cast a spell during Court without being asked to do so . And I'm sure it was in one of the books.

Yes, I read some information up on the wikia, but most of the times it was due to research on the Daimyou of the Clans or Families, or the Jeweled Champions or some similiar information. And I read those articles because I wanted to use some existing NPCs and have some information on them to flesh them out.

For a very long time I only used the rules from the Corebook. And everytime I GM a Oneshot I only use the Corebook. What's more, everytime I start a campaign with people who are new to L5R I start with only using the Corebook and only if the players ask me if they may use something from the book XYZ I think about it and allow it.

So I don't really understand the arguing about "needing" the older books...

Whether it's the game/setting itself, or "just" many players, it comes back to treating the Shugenja-kami relationship as one of a religious nature when it's conventient, and one of utilitarian power when that's conventient instead. The kami are supposed to be revered, but evidently it's OK to draw on their power to twist a trade deal in your favor too.

How are these things mutually exclusive? Shugenja revere the kami, they don't coddle and fawn over and worship them directly. If the kami would be upset about being used to twist a trade deal in your favor, then the shugenja will have a problem with that kami in future scenes. However, the kami have no concept of bushido , so why is the default assumption that they share the same values with samurai when there's nothing in the lore to suggest they do? They have their own unique wants and cares (if they even have wants and cares at all). The Elemental series of books even goes further into what actually pleases/upsets each sort of kami.

Edit to add: Consider this quote from BoA about the Soshi -

"Soshi shugenja are trained to conceal their spellcasting from others, and sometimes even masquerade as courtiers in order to avoid warning their foes that they are using the power of the kami. Although samurai from other clans consider such actions highly dishonorable, the Air spirits do not share mortal morality, and to them such deceptions are merely another amusing game to play. "

There is a reason why scorpion air shugs focus on casting spells discretely! This is the main thematic motivation for that.

Which just reminds me that I wonder why anyone in Rokugan ever trusts any Scorpion at any time, after more than a millenium of lies lies lies.

This is explained in various books throughout the editions in great detail.

Long story short, almost all samurai fail to live up to the code of bushido. The "Paragon of Honor" Matsu is a rare thing indeed, as is the "Only makes friends, never enemies" Doji, etc. and so on.

In fact, my group always insists that every player (in every game that offers them, not just L5R) must take at least one "disadvantage." Simply put, it's harmful to any game when you have "perfect" characters (and it's more fun to explore flaws anyway!)

The Scorpion deal in people's flaws. There is incredible leverage in that for anyone who needs it. That's all there is to it.

Thematically, Shugenja are priests -- religious leaders, spiritual advisors, etc. Not "walking seige engines" or "the people who dominate the entirety of Rokugan and its culture". If Shugenja really are naturally that dominant in all ways, then why after more than a millenium are they not the one overall social and political power in Rokugan, other than "because we said so"?

To the first point, again, why are these mutually exclusive? Nothing in the setting says a priest can't be warlike (it says it is not the norm, but it doesn't say it can't be).

To the second, it's a numbers game, which is explained in the lore. Non-shugenja VASTLY outnumber shugenja. Think of it this way:

The USA = Rokugani shugenja.

China = Rokugani everybody else.

Yes, one has a massively bigger arsenal, but they still don't ever want to find themselves in a war with the other one.

Again, I've never seen anything that indicates that the theme of L5R is "Shugenja powerful, everyone else can expect to lose" -- and from what I have seen of the theme, that treatment of Shugenja is counter, if not downright anathema, to the theme.

Look no further than the Phoenix outlook on peace for your answer.

The Phoenix deem it necessary to be peaceful because they fear the consequences if they were ever to bring their full magical might to bear. If that isn't the lore supporting the idea of, "shugenja powerful, everyone else can expect to lose," then I don't know what is.

It's a question of relevance. No one likes feeling irrelevant, and that can easily become the case if one player is too dominant. And if one player has to constantly hold back in order to avoid stealing every scene, it's an example of bad game design.

So going with this logic:

A group has X number of players. One of them wants to be an archer, but not a Tsuruchi. Another player wants to be a Tsuruchi archer.

The non-Tsuruchi is guaranteed to be outclassed at every. single. turn. when it comes to firing that bow.

Does that make the Tsuruchi bad game design?

(Keep in mind, the imbalance between shugenja/non-shugenja is not guaranteed. The imbalance between Tsuruchi archer/non-Tsuruchi archer is always guaranteed.)

You can't really blame the setting when this issue occurs. It is the GM's role to know that if a shug does this, it is super frowned upon. There are those social ramifications you were talking about, you can't blame the setting/lore when the GM doesn't know this, and lets people away with it for free.

If the concern is certain spells can have a huge effect, yep it is true. And it comes down to balance again. Again, why should a non shug courtier expect to lay the social smackdown on a shug courtier? The shug has the elements on his side and IS going to win. But everyone in court should now know he is a scumbag for using the kami to influence the course of a political discussion. That is the consequence.

As MaxKilljoy said, there ought to be Honor and/or Glory losses written into the system if doing that kind of thing really does mark the character as "a scumbag." But there aren't. Using magic in court isn't a Low skill; it might be a breach of etiquette, but I don't recall any discussion anywhere in 4e that calls it out as such. (And if using magic in court is a breach of etiquette, why have shugenja developed a whole subset of spells dedicated to social buffing? Why don't the descriptions call those spells out as shady to use, the way they do for other spells?) The Glory chart says nothing about this, nor does the writeup for Infamy. It's entirely possible that earlier editions were more explicit about this -- but that's zero help to people like me, who started playing with 4e.

So no, I don't blame the setting/lore when the GM doesn't know this. I blame the system. :-P

Detailing the consequences of casting spells in the middle of court is one area that 4th Edition has horribly failed in, unfortunately. (At least I can't remember where it's mentioned.)

Suffice to say, it's one of those situations where the consequences are always bad, but the scope of the specific court will also likely matter.

For example, in a minor court who's to say what the repercussions are for casting magic. In the Emperor's court, you're likely going to be immediately ended by a Seppun.

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Expanding, in general, on the whole "spells in court" issue:

A lot of people seem to be arguing whether "casting a social buff" in court is a "breach of etiquette" or not.

That's not actually the issue. The issue is that casting any spell, without being specifically asked to, in an official court setting is basically a death sentence.

Court is not just a casual gathering of people. It's a clan/imperial-sanctioned event where there is a host and there are invited guests and in order to guarantee the safety of said guests and hosts, many things are restricted or outright not allowed, spell casting being one.

In fact, when you examine all of the shugenja schools and traditions in the Lore, only one actually involves themselves in politics and court: The Soshi - the one school who's technique specifically hides the effects of their spells from examination (if spells were allowed in court, consider that the Soshi technique would be all but useless). Even the other Clan huge into politics, the Crane, don't use their shugenja for politics (the Asahina are incredibly monastic and spend most of their time as artisans or scholars, avoiding court entirely - a place where, probably by necessity, the RPG and CCG differ entirely).

So then the question about why there are so many social spell options could come up, and the answer there is that Court is a specific event, and most of the time you are not going to be at one. Social situation where you need to convince/manipulate/bargain/etc. will come up on as often as a daily basis, especially for a group of PCs who are specifically interacting with the world on a heavier basis than a typical citizen will be.

Finally, on the "combat-vs-court-buffing" side, it is, in fact, just as inappropriate to buff your fellow warrior with combat enhancements as it is to buff a courtier. In fact, it could cause a rather interesting bit of contention between players. Or maybe these players are less honorable than some and accept the fact that the victor gets to write the history. Who's to say? But it IS equally dishonorable to do, and that can make for fun RP opportunities among the players.

It's a question of relevance. No one likes feeling irrelevant, and that can easily become the case if one player is too dominant. And if one player has to constantly hold back in order to avoid stealing every scene, it's an example of bad game design.

So going with this logic:

A group has X number of players. One of them wants to be an archer, but not a Tsuruchi. Another player wants to be a Tsuruchi archer.

The non-Tsuruchi is guaranteed to be outclassed at every. single. turn. when it comes to firing that bow.

Does that make the Tsuruchi bad game design?

(Keep in mind, the imbalance between shugenja/non-shugenja is not guaranteed. The imbalance between Tsuruchi archer/non-Tsuruchi archer is always guaranteed.)

Not exactly. Every bushi school but the Tsuruchi is designed for melee combat. If you're trying to push your school outside of what it was designed to do, you have to expect to lose effectiveness. It's one of the perils of class-based systems like this one.

Of course, this isn't getting into how ridiculous it is that only the Tsuruchi get mechanical support for archer characters, but that's tangential, I suppose. I'll save that rant for later.

Finally, on the "combat-vs-court-buffing" side, it is, in fact, just as inappropriate to buff your fellow warrior with combat enhancements as it is to buff a courtier. In fact, it could cause a rather interesting bit of contention between players. Or maybe these players are less honorable than some and accept the fact that the victor gets to write the history. Who's to say? But it IS equally dishonorable to do, and that can make for fun RP opportunities among the players.

Where does it say it's dishonorable to buff your bushi buddies? Because I don't think many people interpret it that way.

How are these things mutually exclusive? Shugenja revere the kami, they don't coddle and fawn over and worship them directly. If the kami would be upset about being used to twist a trade deal in your favor, then the shugenja will have a problem with that kami in future scenes. However, the kami have no concept of bushido , so why is the default assumption that they share the same values with samurai when there's nothing in the lore to suggest they do? They have their own unique wants and cares (if they even have wants and cares at all). The Elemental series of books even goes further into what actually pleases/upsets each sort of kami.

Edit to add: Consider this quote from BoA about the Soshi -

"Soshi shugenja are trained to conceal their spellcasting from others, and sometimes even masquerade as courtiers in order to avoid warning their foes that they are using the power of the kami. Although samurai from other clans consider such actions highly dishonorable, the Air spirits do not share mortal morality, and to them such deceptions are merely another amusing game to play. "

First, no one said that shugenja "coddle and fawn over" the elemental kami. No one . "Worship", well, if you're going to claim that prayers, devotions, and shrines (as clearly noted in the books) do not constitute "worship", that's a very thin line to draw indeed.

Second, you're correct that the elemental kami care little to nothing for Bushido -- this fact also happens to be utterly irrelevant to the point at hand. Samurai do care about and follow Bushido -- or are try to and are expected to -- and the conflict is there, having nothing to do with how the kami feel about it.

Is it OK for a samurai to use his katana and/or wakizashi to butcher cattle, because the swords "don't follow Bushido"?

(I'll avoid real-world religious parallel examples for the sake of not derailing the thread in an inferno.)

In the quote you added is an outright statement that most samurai consider it "highly dishonorable" for a shugenja to draw on their sacred relationship with the elemental kami to sway others in court. It's the overall beliefs of the samurai caste that count here, not how the elemental kami feel about it, or what sort of excuses the shugenja of Clan Pants On Fire might tell themselves.

This is explained in various books throughout the editions in great detail.

Long story short, almost all samurai fail to live up to the code of bushido. The "Paragon of Honor" Matsu is a rare thing indeed, as is the "Only makes friends, never enemies" Doji, etc. and so on.

In fact, my group always insists that every player (in every game that offers them, not just L5R) must take at least one "disadvantage." Simply put, it's harmful to any game when you have "perfect" characters (and it's more fun to explore flaws anyway!)

The Scorpion deal in people's flaws. There is incredible leverage in that for anyone who needs it. That's all there is to it.

None of which really explains why anyone ever trusts a Scorpion. Ever. I guess it's amazing what plot armor will do.

(As for character faults... meh. It takes a lot of points (or levels) to be "perfect", so it's a bit of a false dichotomy to say that a character with no "Disads" is "perfect". Beyond that, when I'm a player in an RPG campaign, I'd rather get on -- as the character -- with solving the mystery or fixing the problem or advancing the plot... I have a limited patience for wangsting over the character's personal challenges and shortcomings. This is probably related to my preference for police "procedurals" over "police dramas" -- a character can be well-rounded and interesting without the show spending half of every episode on his troubled marriage or institutionalized mother or struggles with drinking or blah blah blah...)

To the first point, again, why are these mutually exclusive? Nothing in the setting says a priest can't be warlike (it says it is not the norm, but it doesn't say it can't be).

To the second, it's a numbers game, which is explained in the lore. Non-shugenja VASTLY outnumber shugenja. Think of it this way:

The USA = Rokugani shugenja.

China = Rokugani everybody else.

Yes, one has a massively bigger arsenal, but they still don't ever want to find themselves in a war with the other one.

(That analogy is neither reflective of the real-world situation, nor parallel to the situation being discussed. Explaining why would however take us WAY off topic and into touchy geopolitical subjects best discussed elsewhere.)

Anyway, the "numbers game" is hardly compelling as an explanation -- Rokugan is already ruled by a relatively tiny percentage of the overall population. If Shugenja really are so much more powerful than everyone else... they should have probably, over 1000+ years, crept into a position of being that tiny minority that holds most of the political power in Rokugan. Unless of course, there are a host of social factors

Look no further than the Phoenix outlook on peace for your answer.

The Phoenix deem it necessary to be peaceful because they fear the consequences if they were ever to bring their full magical might to bear. If that isn't the lore supporting the idea of, "shugenja powerful, everyone else can expect to lose," then I don't know what is.

That's the Phoenix being utterly full of themselves.

It's a question of relevance. No one likes feeling irrelevant, and that can easily become the case if one player is too dominant. And if one player has to constantly hold back in order to avoid stealing every scene, it's an example of bad game design.

So going with this logic:

A group has X number of players. One of them wants to be an archer, but not a Tsuruchi. Another player wants to be a Tsuruchi archer.

The non-Tsuruchi is guaranteed to be outclassed at every. single. turn. when it comes to firing that bow.

Does that make the Tsuruchi bad game design?

(Keep in mind, the imbalance between shugenja/non-shugenja is not guaranteed. The imbalance between Tsuruchi archer/non-Tsuruchi archer is always guaranteed.)

Not exactly. Every bushi school but the Tsuruchi is designed for melee combat.

Hah! This is actually kinda untrue. Both the Shiba Bushi and the Akodo Bushi can play the ranged game just as well as the melee game. In fact, the Shiba Bushi can probably outshoot the Tsuruchi thankfully to his crazy Void shenanigans.

Edit: Oh, and the Utaku Battle Maiden is also equally good with ranged and melee attacks as well. All her School Techniques work with ranged attacks, even the Rank 4 Technique (hilariously enough).

Where does it say it's dishonorable to buff your bushi buddies? Because I don't think many people interpret it that way.

I would think it would depend on the situation.

Are we talking about a battle against a horde of Shadowlands creatures? Or a formal duel called in court and fully sanctioned? The former, I'd think anything goes. The latter, I'd think it would be a massive lose of face for the buffed samurai were it to become known.

This is explained in various books throughout the editions in great detail.

Long story short, almost all samurai fail to live up to the code of bushido. The "Paragon of Honor" Matsu is a rare thing indeed, as is the "Only makes friends, never enemies" Doji, etc. and so on.

In fact, my group always insists that every player (in every game that offers them, not just L5R) must take at least one "disadvantage." Simply put, it's harmful to any game when you have "perfect" characters (and it's more fun to explore flaws anyway!)

The Scorpion deal in people's flaws. There is incredible leverage in that for anyone who needs it. That's all there is to it.

None of which really explains why anyone ever trusts a Scorpion. Ever. I guess it's amazing what plot armor will do.

Hope you don't mind me jumping in on this one.

The Scorpion are trusted because they aren't actually as completely honorless and backstabby as PCs and famous Scorpions portray them. When it comes to their friends, they are incredibly loyal. And 90% of the time, the Scorpion are very eager to help out. They're outright useful people to have around. It's only when you're in the way of them accomplishing something, and there's no way around you that they get nasty. Their schools teach them the most efficient ways to eliminate obstacles.

This is explained in various books throughout the editions in great detail.

Long story short, almost all samurai fail to live up to the code of bushido. The "Paragon of Honor" Matsu is a rare thing indeed, as is the "Only makes friends, never enemies" Doji, etc. and so on.

In fact, my group always insists that every player (in every game that offers them, not just L5R) must take at least one "disadvantage." Simply put, it's harmful to any game when you have "perfect" characters (and it's more fun to explore flaws anyway!)

The Scorpion deal in people's flaws. There is incredible leverage in that for anyone who needs it. That's all there is to it.

None of which really explains why anyone ever trusts a Scorpion. Ever. I guess it's amazing what plot armor will do.

Hope you don't mind me jumping in on this one.

The Scorpion are trusted because they aren't actually as completely honorless and backstabby as PCs and famous Scorpions portray them. When it comes to their friends, they are incredibly loyal. And 90% of the time, the Scorpion are very eager to help out. They're outright useful people to have around. It's only when you're in the way of them accomplishing something, and there's no way around you that they get nasty. Their schools teach them the most efficient ways to eliminate obstacles.

That would make it far more believable that they aren't just completely shunned at this point.

Reading through the 4th Ed books and the old forums and these forums and the Wiki, it all makes them out to be just shy of pathological. The text for every school and every technique and every family makes them all out to be nothing but inveterate and compulsive deceivers, blackmailers, and manipulators -- and that talking to a Scorpion is a guarantee that you have no secrets left.

Maybe it's the writing style of the RPG books that does this -- I have a hard time telling when they're being objective, and when they're subjectively channeling, say, a clan's self-image. The superlatives and hyperbole get old.

This is explained in various books throughout the editions in great detail.

Long story short, almost all samurai fail to live up to the code of bushido. The "Paragon of Honor" Matsu is a rare thing indeed, as is the "Only makes friends, never enemies" Doji, etc. and so on.

In fact, my group always insists that every player (in every game that offers them, not just L5R) must take at least one "disadvantage." Simply put, it's harmful to any game when you have "perfect" characters (and it's more fun to explore flaws anyway!)

The Scorpion deal in people's flaws. There is incredible leverage in that for anyone who needs it. That's all there is to it.

None of which really explains why anyone ever trusts a Scorpion. Ever. I guess it's amazing what plot armor will do.

Hope you don't mind me jumping in on this one.

The Scorpion are trusted because they aren't actually as completely honorless and backstabby as PCs and famous Scorpions portray them. When it comes to their friends, they are incredibly loyal. And 90% of the time, the Scorpion are very eager to help out. They're outright useful people to have around. It's only when you're in the way of them accomplishing something, and there's no way around you that they get nasty. Their schools teach them the most efficient ways to eliminate obstacles.

That would make it far more believable that they aren't just completely shunned at this point.

Reading through the 4th Ed books and the old forums and these forums and the Wiki, it all makes them out to be just shy of pathological. The text for every school and every technique and every family makes them all out to be nothing but inveterate and compulsive deceivers, blackmailers, and manipulators -- and that talking to a Scorpion is a guarantee that you have no secrets left.

Maybe it's the writing style of the RPG books that does this -- I have a hard time telling when they're being objective, and when they're subjectively channeling, say, a clan's self-image. The superlatives and hyperbole get old.

There is a difference between the scorpion knowing all your secrects and using them against you. Surely gathering informations is the way to go for any Scorpion cause that is what they do and how they can get all the helpful things. They establish a huge spy and favor network

and resort only to their black mail when they have to. None the less they ofcourse have it by than allready.

Scropions are all about the knowlegde and information advantge in the end and if the ycan get this by beeing nice it is even better and most often thats the case which makes them a allmost ever useful friend cause they can help you in most iuationas thanks to the information advantage.

Thats also what the RPG books try to say. Yes they don´t do this very good but the books are far away from the advise to betray all your friends permanently.

Where does it say it's dishonorable to buff your bushi buddies? Because I don't think many people interpret it that way.

I would think it would depend on the situation.

Are we talking about a battle against a horde of Shadowlands creatures? Or a formal duel called in court and fully sanctioned? The former, I'd think anything goes. The latter, I'd think it would be a massive lose of face for the buffed samurai were it to become known.

Well yeah, it would certainly be dishonorable to influence a duel that way. But Tsubaki was saying that buffing bushi is dishonorable in general, which I'm dubious of.

Not exactly. Every bushi school but the Tsuruchi is designed for melee combat.

Hah! This is actually kinda untrue. Both the Shiba Bushi and the Akodo Bushi can play the ranged game just as well as the melee game. In fact, the Shiba Bushi can probably outshoot the Tsuruchi thankfully to his crazy Void shenanigans.

Edit: Oh, and the Utaku Battle Maiden is also equally good with ranged and melee attacks as well. All her School Techniques work with ranged attacks, even the Rank 4 Technique (hilariously enough).

Fair enough. I've largely only played 3rd edition, where every (or nearly every) bushi school lost significant abilities when they picked up a ranged weapon. Looking over my sadly underused 4th ed book, I see you're right.

Still, it doesn't detract from my point. The Shiba, Akodo, and Utaku have more versatile schools than the Tsuruchi, since they're able to handle either melee or ranged weapons. It makes sense for the Tsuruchi to be able to outshoot them, since that's basically all the school does.

If the Shiba really can outshoot the Tsuruchi, while also being more versatile, then that's an example of bad design. It sounds quite similar to the relationship between shugenja and bushi, actually.

Look no further than the Phoenix outlook on peace for your answer.

The Phoenix deem it necessary to be peaceful because they fear the consequences if they were ever to bring their full magical might to bear. If that isn't the lore supporting the idea of, "shugenja powerful, everyone else can expect to lose," then I don't know what is.

That's the Phoenix being utterly full of themselves.

No, that's a rough paraphrase of the reason the lead of the story team gave for why the Phoenix were basically absent from the story (Mizuhiko aside) a lot of the time.

It's part of the reason the Army of Dark Fire was literally, in-settting, described as being resistant to Rokugani magic.

It's why, in what very well may be the last time we ever see the Phoenix do anything militarily in the storyline, the presence of a whopping two shugenja (yeah, yeah, one was the master of Earth, shaddup) turned what looked like a walkover for the Unicorn forces present into a one-sided rout. (Note that this portrayal also picked at some other scabs, like, "so none of the Phoenix in the losing war effort to date tried anything so rudimentary as tactics in their spell use?")

It's why a single unnamed Asahina was able to keep an entire Mantis river fleet at a disadvantage during their colonial war until a Tsuruchi Shot an Arrow.

It's why Kuni Daigo was able to hold off the entire friggin' Destroyer Army for a while. It's why Kuni Osaku was able to stand off the Maw.

The Phoenix's garbage track record (so well-known and well-flogged by yours truly) is purely the result of them being jobbed out three or four times in rapid succession in the storyline. It's easy to forget that the first time the Mantis beat the Phoenix, it was actually a big deal- and largely a result of their own heavy use of shugenja in combat.

The lore absolutely and categorically supports "shugenja who bring their a-game win, and everybody else is either damned lucky or in designated plot victory space."

If anything, the game actually makes great strides in limiting the superheroes of the setting lore (which is a good thing, let me add).

It's a question of relevance. No one likes feeling irrelevant, and that can easily become the case if one player is too dominant. And if one player has to constantly hold back in order to avoid stealing every scene, it's an example of bad game design.

So going with this logic:

A group has X number of players. One of them wants to be an archer, but not a Tsuruchi. Another player wants to be a Tsuruchi archer.

The non-Tsuruchi is guaranteed to be outclassed at every. single. turn. when it comes to firing that bow.

Does that make the Tsuruchi bad game design?

(Keep in mind, the imbalance between shugenja/non-shugenja is not guaranteed. The imbalance between Tsuruchi archer/non-Tsuruchi archer is always guaranteed.)

Not exactly. Every bushi school but the Tsuruchi is designed for melee combat. If you're trying to push your school outside of what it was designed to do, you have to expect to lose effectiveness. It's one of the perils of class-based systems like this one.

Of course, this isn't getting into how ridiculous it is that only the Tsuruchi get mechanical support for archer characters, but that's tangential, I suppose. I'll save that rant for later.

But even the best non-Tsuruchi is leaps and bounds away from a Tsuruchi.

Finally, on the "combat-vs-court-buffing" side, it is, in fact, just as inappropriate to buff your fellow warrior with combat enhancements as it is to buff a courtier. In fact, it could cause a rather interesting bit of contention between players. Or maybe these players are less honorable than some and accept the fact that the victor gets to write the history. Who's to say? But it IS equally dishonorable to do, and that can make for fun RP opportunities among the players.

Where does it say it's dishonorable to buff your bushi buddies? Because I don't think many people interpret it that way.

Looking at the rules around breaches of etiquette, combined with the tenets of bushido, gives you all you need to call it a failure of one or more tenets.

But then monkey wrenches show up and start to mess with what is acceptable. For instance, who your opponent is largely matters here. Against a fellow clan samurai? Dishonorable. Against a filthy peasant bandit or shadowlands creature? Anything goes.

And then Akodo said some nonsense about how everything is honorable on the battlefield, which gets murky coverage at best.

Yeah, I see a lot of "put 2 and 2 together" that's actually someone's subjective conclusion, or relies on 20-year old info from some online-only fiction that people just picking up the game are somehow magically expected to know about and have read.

Not to be harsh... it's just that so much of what's expressed as "obvious" in these threads, really isn't.

Finally, on the "combat-vs-court-buffing" side, it is, in fact, just as inappropriate to buff your fellow warrior with combat enhancements as it is to buff a courtier. In fact, it could cause a rather interesting bit of contention between players. Or maybe these players are less honorable than some and accept the fact that the victor gets to write the history. Who's to say? But it IS equally dishonorable to do, and that can make for fun RP opportunities among the players.

If a GM told me I'd take an Honor hit any time I use my combat-buffing spells to buff my combat buddies, I'd say "bugger this, then, I'm not playing a shugenja." Because at that point, the list of occasions when I'm apparently not supposed to use my spells has gotten longer than the list of occasions when using them is okay.

Also: complete lack of support for that concept in the 4e fluff. I'm with Killjoy on that one: it is not putting 2 and 2 together, as that implies an obvious, elementary calculation that anybody with a few functioning brain cells can perform. It's more like reading between the lines, when some of the lines came from other editions or were possibly added by the subconscious of the reader.

(I also disagree radically on your interpretation of what constitutes court, since everything I've read about real-world political courts, whether in England or Japan, contradicts the notion of it that being strictly bounded and controlled. A specific event *at* court, like a formal audience or a moon-viewing party? Sure, you can keep everybody on that short of a leash, and that's what the Soshi technique is designed to get around. But court in general? No. This is, however, another dead horse I'm getting tired of beating.)

I don't disagree at all that the game fails to give enough examples of the rules of it's society in it's most current edition, and one does, in fact, have to peruse through old, often out-of-date, information to get a full feel.

But what did anyone expect? A setting that is radically different than 99% of what people are used to. Unique mechanics to go with said setting. And a limited number of pages to put it all in based on budget and time constraints.

The bottom line always wins out over customer desire/need, even to the detriment of the latter. Always. Unfortunately.

In fact, Dev response (or lack thereof) is why I don't like 4th Edition. Too many "do it your way" answers to questions, and not enough actual information given to players and GMs who need it.

Everyone who says it's wrong to make a customer base rely on years and years of old information from a variety of sources is right to complain, and AEG was wrong to do it that way, and if/when FFG puts out it's version of the RPG, I sincerely hope they realize this and dedicate enough space to cover what needs to be covered.

(As to Rokugani Court, Kinzen and I will have to agree to disagree. Rokugan has outlined it's political process, so stating how England or Japan does it simply doesn't seem relevant, IMO, but it's also not a horse I want to beat either.)

I don't disagree at all that the game fails to give enough examples of the rules of it's society in it's most current edition, and one does, in fact, have to peruse through old, often out-of-date, information to get a full feel.

But what did anyone expect? A setting that is radically different than 99% of what people are used to. Unique mechanics to go with said setting. And a limited number of pages to put it all in based on budget and time constraints.

The bottom line always wins out over customer desire/need, even to the detriment of the latter. Always. Unfortunately.

In fact, Dev response (or lack thereof) is why I don't like 4th Edition. Too many "do it your way" answers to questions, and not enough actual information given to players and GMs who need it.

Everyone who says it's wrong to make a customer base rely on years and years of old information from a variety of sources is right to complain, and AEG was wrong to do it that way, and if/when FFG puts out it's version of the RPG, I sincerely hope they realize this and dedicate enough space to cover what needs to be covered.

We had enough room to put in some sentences about how the Tamori are seen as weird for being so martial because shugenja are supposed to be closeted away from such violent and worldly things. If they were also seen as straight-up dishonorable, and the Mirumoto along with them, for employing magic in combat, we had more than enough room to make an equally-prominent note about that fact. But there are no such notes.

Nor is there a line in the Honor chart, which could easily have accommodated such a thing.

Nor are there any references in the multiple chapters about war, about shugenja, and about what shugenja do in war -- or if I'm wrong about that, then I welcome citations to the contrary. From previous editions as well as the current one.

Are there even any fictions where a shugenja blesses his bushi friend before said bushi goes into non-duel combat, and they are spat upon afterward as cowardly cheaters?

I can't chalk this one up to space limitations or too much L5R Your Way. It isn't in there , and it seems pretty obvious that the designers did not intend for it to be in there, conceptually or verbally. If they did, somebody would have mentioned it during playtest or proofreading. If it was in an earlier edition, then somebody looked at that idea, decided it was detrimental to the game, and chucked it.

That would make it far more believable that they aren't just completely shunned at this point.

Reading through the 4th Ed books and the old forums and these forums and the Wiki, it all makes them out to be just shy of pathological. The text for every school and every technique and every family makes them all out to be nothing but inveterate and compulsive deceivers, blackmailers, and manipulators -- and that talking to a Scorpion is a guarantee that you have no secrets left.

Maybe it's the writing style of the RPG books that does this -- I have a hard time telling when they're being objective, and when they're subjectively channeling, say, a clan's self-image. The superlatives and hyperbole get old.

My vision is that all of the Scorpion appear to be just normal-ass guys, and for almost all of them, this perception is accurate. All that talk about how Scorpion are maser decievers and know all this evil wisdom of lies, etc etc etc, gets most people to just roll their eyes because they know Scorpion friends, and none of them are like that. This whole "Clan of decievers" shtick is, for them more like an elaborate injoke, a shared fiction about how cool they pretend to be. The kind of thing that makes Doji Steve say "Ooh, I better watch out, you'll slip poison into my drink!" in a joking manner when sharing a drink with Bayushi Ted. And, again, for almost all of them, this perception is accurate.

I read a description of the Bayushi gempukku, which is a ceremony anyone can attend, and involves doing Standard Samurai Things. Then, that night, they hold the real gempukku trial, and it's not about how well you can lie or poison people, it's "Describe, in as much detail as you can, everyone who attended the fake trial." Their training isn't about being a deceiver, it's about being able to notice information in case it is useful. I find it most likely that the Scorpion are not a Clan of pathological liars who go about lying all the time, they are a Clan of people who are told "Some day -- and this day may never come -- we may call upon you to do something that honor finds questionable, but is in our best interests. Until such time, just try to pay attention to what's going on around you and tell us if you see something really cool, be a normal samurai, and try to avoid spilling gravy on yourself."

Anything more, and the Scorpion would not only not be worth trusting, they'd just be exhausting to be around, and exhausting to BE.