We're addressing the complaints being made about the continuity of the setting's lore.

When you decide "we're discussing what could/should/would be, not necessarily what is ," you're moving the goal posts.

One claim is that there are more combat spells than there should be. Are there more combat-ready spells than would make sense for a "profession" (for lack of a better term) that tends to avoid violence? The popular answer is, "Yes." (I disagree, but don't really care to repeat previous arguments). So, for the sake of the topic, here is a genuine continuity issue.
Why does this continuity issue exist? Probably because "flashy" tends to be more popular in a gaming context (but that's admittedly just my conjecture).

Another claim is that Shugenja are contradictory on matters religious, ceremonial, and cultural. I fail to see any examples of this having been presented from source material. When you redefine what it means to be a Priest in Rokugan, however, sure, contradictions will occur. But again, you've moved the goalposts when you do this. The setting, when taken by itself, does just fine portraying shugenja in a religious, ceremonial, and/or cultural way. When you start to compare them to real-world theology is where problems arise.

It's like this post was skipped entirely, along with several others.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/page-19#entry1890065

It's been made clear several times that several of us are not having a discussion about what's already in the game, and in fact are pointing out both how the game fails to match "crunch and fluff" within itself ( which it does, and we've given examples already, so stop asking for what's already been given ), and what could be done to address that from the ground up, which includes hypothetical changes from bottom to top. In the context of that discussion, nothing is "sacred".

If you want to restrict your own discussion to what already exists inside the published material, that's fine, but please please please be aware that you're then not having the same discussion that some of us are. Stop demanding "source material" references from inside the existing L5R material in response to people who are clearly not restricting their own discussion to that box.

We're going in circles here because some people keep responding to a discussion of " what should be " (and yes that's a matter of opinion, no need to point that out again) as if it were a discussion of what already is .

It's as if some of us are standing here looking at a river and talking about how there should be a bridge here, and how we'd build that bridge, and what the trade-offs might be... and every so often, a couple of people standing nearby shout "There's no bridge there!"

You want opinion, here's my opinion on this idea. Honestly, that's nonsense. FFG will not restart the whole existing lore of the game because that's basically bad marketting. Why? Because they will lose a lot of the current communauty. Sure they may remove a few things here and there, but I really doubt that they would change anything to the lore Pre-Clan War.

You say that is goes in circles, that's because it's a matter of opinion! There will NEVER have any concensus when only opinions are in play. You have to bring facts, proofs, something undeniable to comes to a point where it will be possible to discuss as a whole, otherwise it ends up to the "No, my opinion is better than yours!". Which will not bring anything!

If you want a post about: "How it should be" then create it and write this as the title of the post, this will be clear. Right now the post title is: "[RPG] Shugenja (huh!) what are you good for?" which isn't about "Shugenja, what it should be?"

I join up with Moto Subodei, I would like source and fact where Shugenja are contradictory to the lore because everything I've found in all edition, I even worked on looking for older edition in order to understand the older edition lore and nothing seems to go in contradiction. I would also know where's your facts when saying that the game fails to match "crunch and fluff", I could agree there's some holes but that's not a failure...

You wanted an opinion, here's my opinion on the post I've quoted. Sorry if it's a bit harsh, but when I read a message where you say your opinion that is just wrong and some people clearly points out that you are wrong with facts from the game and lore, it's just wrong. Plus your denial of bringing facts to your opinions kinda tends to the point where your opinions are non-funded...

We're addressing the complaints being made about the continuity of the setting's lore.

When you decide "we're discussing what could/should/would be, not necessarily what is ," you're moving the goal posts.

One claim is that there are more combat spells than there should be. Are there more combat-ready spells than would make sense for a "profession" (for lack of a better term) that tends to avoid violence? The popular answer is, "Yes." (I disagree, but don't really care to repeat previous arguments). So, for the sake of the topic, here is a genuine continuity issue.

Why does this continuity issue exist? Probably because "flashy" tends to be more popular in a gaming context (but that's admittedly just my conjecture).

Another claim is that Shugenja are contradictory on matters religious, ceremonial, and cultural. I fail to see any examples of this having been presented from source material. When you redefine what it means to be a Priest in Rokugan, however, sure, contradictions will occur. But again, you've moved the goalposts when you do this. The setting, when taken by itself, does just fine portraying shugenja in a religious, ceremonial, and/or cultural way. When you start to compare them to real-world theology is where problems arise.

No one is moving the goalposts here, it just comes back to the misunderstanding from the beginning between the two different discussions that are going on.

We did present examples of how shugenja are said to handle certain religious duties, but given no means to do so. For all the talk of the Tao, and Ancestors, and so on, and all the other sorts of spirits in the world... what we get is "priests" who evidently only talk to the elemental kami, and appear to largely interact with them to get their spell on.

If religion in Rokugan is about so much more than the elemental kami, and the spirit world is so much broader than just elemental kami, then why this "schizophrenic" depiction of shugenja where one paragraph will talk about all the other things, and the next paragraph goes right back to "and so they talk to elemental kami"?

That world is clearly full of all sorts of other spirits (some good, some bad, too many oddly mutant-grafted onto "belligerent realms"), and yet for the most part they're either ignored, or treated as threats that only specialist kami deal with.

We also showed that some of those same duties are also ascribed to monks in other places in the published material -- and yet that contradiction is never resolved, nor as far as I recall is it ever followed through on as an in-setting conflict between shugenja and monks over the proper conduct of such matters... it's a dangling thread.

As for what shugenja should be, personally, I've left so many open invitations to discuss that lying about that it's not funny at this point. I've offered up links to the real-world priests and shamans of the "inspiration" cultures for Rokugan. I've repeatedly said that we need to look at the fabric of the fictional reality, the people who can somehow manipulate it, and their cultural role as a coherent whole... and in return, silence, or demands for irrelevant references.

It's like this post was skipped entirely, along with several others.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/page-19#entry1890065

It's been made clear several times that several of us are not having a discussion about what's already in the game, and in fact are pointing out both how the game fails to match "crunch and fluff" within itself ( which it does, and we've given examples already, so stop asking for what's already been given ), and what could be done to address that from the ground up, which includes hypothetical changes from bottom to top. In the context of that discussion, nothing is "sacred".

If you want to restrict your own discussion to what already exists inside the published material, that's fine, but please please please be aware that you're then not having the same discussion that some of us are. Stop demanding "source material" references from inside the existing L5R material in response to people who are clearly not restricting their own discussion to that box.

We're going in circles here because some people keep responding to a discussion of " what should be " (and yes that's a matter of opinion, no need to point that out again) as if it were a discussion of what already is .

It's as if some of us are standing here looking at a river and talking about how there should be a bridge here, and how we'd build that bridge, and what the trade-offs might be... and every so often, a couple of people standing nearby shout "There's no bridge there!"

You want opinion, here's my opinion on this idea. Honestly, that's nonsense. FFG will not restart the whole existing lore of the game because that's basically bad marketting. Why? Because they will lose a lot of the current communauty. Sure they may remove a few things here and there, but I really doubt that they would change anything to the lore Pre-Clan War.

No one is calling for a complete rework or throwing everything out to start over from scratch.

I even posted a comment that we could end up largely where everything is right now, which would be fine if it was where we ended up deliberately instead of through momentum, "tradition", and accident.

I join up with Moto Subodei, I would like source and fact where Shugenja are contradictory to the lore because everything I've found in all edition, I even worked on looking for older edition in order to understand the older edition lore and nothing seems to go in contradiction. I would also know where's your facts when saying that the game fails to match "crunch and fluff", I could agree there's some holes but that's not a failure...

You wanted an opinion, here's my opinion on the post I've quoted. Sorry if it's a bit harsh, but when I read a message where you say your opinion that is just wrong and some people clearly points out that you are wrong with facts from the game and lore, it's just wrong. Plus your denial of bringing facts to your opinions kinda tends to the point where your opinions are non-funded...

When references are given, they're ignored, and then demanded again a page or two later.

See, now we're getting somewhere - I believe your idea of a "religious duty" is flawed.
Going out and placating an angry spirit isn't a religious duty; it's simply a task that a shugenja is likely (though not definitely) better prepared to handle, due to the study requirements of their cultural role (ie: they put skill points into stuff other than 'swing a stick' and/or 'be a good talker').

"Religious duties" are the boring stuff that no one wants to be saddled with when they sit down at the gaming table - the blessings and births and marriages and so fourth.

As for Monks, they don't have any role. That's kind of the point!

A person shaves their head and joins the Brotherhood (or another sect, but usually the Brotherhood) in order to totally set aside their societal responsibilities and begin, or further, their journey towards personal enlightenment. It would be incredibly contradictory to then suggest that they have societal religious responsibilities they must fulfill.

Now Monks have a reputation for "stepping in" when a shugenja isn't available, and that's just lucky for the peasants that benefit (because a Samurai will always have a shugenja available to call upon and won't need a Monk) but they are by no means expected or required to do so - they do it because they can or because they want to or because they believe that service will lead them closer to enlightenment, etc.

This also seems to be a debate upon whether the magic system available exclusively to shugenjas is balanced with the rest of the game or not. Should the shugenja be able to fill the roles of all three pillars (bushi, courtier, shugenja) or not? Should the bushi and courtiers be given a boost to be th best in their given areas, or should limitations be placed on shugenja?

Thus reading over this thread again, I feel the real dscussion here is about the balance of magic in the game. As I posted earlier almost every storyteller I know modifies the magic for each campaign, be ause it is so difficult to write a blanket magic system that can cover all storytelling styles. I know this solves nothing mechanically, and leaves it upon the storyteller's intuition. I also know there are those players who will argue the mechanics despite the story reasons for why you the storyteller made your call. That is what I see as the purpose of this thread to establish a set of mechanics that work with the story for the mutual benefit of storyteller, and player. That my friends is a good reason to have game planning/ character building session to lay down the guidelines upfront before the first roleplay session.

I prefer heroic, or epic fantasy. Others prefer low fantasy, or horror fantasy. No one system I have ever played with or ran covers all those possibilties with no existing loop holes left open and available for abuse. Legend of the Five Rings actually has fewer loop holes, while providing more flexibilty than most other games.

See, now we're getting somewhere - I believe your idea of a "religious duty" is flawed.

Going out and placating an angry spirit isn't a religious duty; it's simply a task that a shugenja is likely (though not definitely) better prepared to handle, due to the study requirements of their cultural role (ie: they put skill points into stuff other than 'swing a stick' and/or 'be a good talker').

"Religious duties" are the boring stuff that no one wants to be saddled with when they sit down at the gaming table - the blessings and births and marriages and so fourth.

1 - To me, that sounds more like reverse-defining "religious duty" to lump together all the "boring stuff".

2 - If shugenja don't don't go out and deal with the local spirits, who does? Whose duty is that?

(And again, why does this jump right to "placating an angry spirit" when their interaction with the spirits of the world should be a daily or even moment-to-moment activity -- another example of the spiritual being treated mainly as either a tool or a threat, and not an integrated part of the world and lives of the Rokugani)

2a - if shugenja are restricted in terms of direct interaction to just the elemental kami, then does someone else deal with the ceremonies and rituals for the other entities that make up the "spritual heirarchy"? Or do shugenja do that in a more "real world" manner without the ability to directly commune?

3 - If there are shugenja who don't get involved in all that "boring stuff", then that needs to be spelled out in the game itself, and explained. Why are their "temple shugenja" and "adventuring shugenja"? What are the differences? Does this vary between clans, or between families?

4 - That "boring stuff" is overflowing with plot hooks, and grist for the roleplaying mill. PC Shugenja is met on the road by a courier... a powerful Daimyo wants the PC to conduct the wedding of the family heir. Does the PC risk alienating that powerful family, to continue his current mission -- maybe a mission to figure out why the well in a remote village has dried up? Why does the Daimyo want THIS wandering shugenja of all people? And hey, for extra samurai angst, maybe it turns out that the heir's spouse-to-be is the person the PC is secretly in love with!

Or, "birth needs a blessing" is an excuse that the GM can use to get the player somewhere for the sake of the actual adventure -- the blessing takes up less than five minutes of actual game time, and some genuine Rokugani flavor has been added.

5 - Anyone can learn to use a weapon, they don't have to be a Bushi. Anyone can develop the art of polite double-edged conversation, they don't have to be a courtier. While not everyone can directly communicate with the elemental kami, anyone should be able to learn to read the signs of local spirit activity, make offerings, etc... and simply engage in their own relgious devotions.

Or are we going to say that the average samurai gives no thought to religion, and leaves all that "boring relgious stuff" to the temple shugenja?

6 - If a player doesn't want to be bothered with all that "boring religious stuff", why are they playing a character type that is clearly spelled out to have a priestly role in the culture of the game world? It's stated in the books that shugenja spend most of their time at temples and shrines, engaged in meditation, study, and devotional duties -- and that shugenja encountered "out in the world" are almost always on some specific mission from their lord. Some shugenja schools expect their members to take various acscetic, chastity, etc, vows.

As for Monks, they don't have any role. That's kind of the point!

A person shaves their head and joins the Brotherhood (or another sect, but usually the Brotherhood) in order to totally set aside their societal responsibilities and begin, or further, their journey towards personal enlightenment. It would be incredibly contradictory to then suggest that they have societal religious responsibilities they must fulfill.

Now Monks have a reputation for "stepping in" when a shugenja isn't available, and that's just lucky for the peasants that benefit (because a Samurai will always have a shugenja available to call upon and won't need a Monk) but they are by no means expected or required to do so - they do it because they can or because they want to or because they believe that service will lead them closer to enlightenment, etc.

I'll do some digging tonight, but I think we've already seen references to where, in the actual books, monks are said to have certain spiritual duties to the people. Yes, in many instances, this has been a duty that they've taken upon themselves because evidently there are needs and obligations not being met otherwise -- and at that point we have to ask "why the heck is that?"

As for whether this was supposed to be a discussion of what is, or a discussion of opinions / solutions on the what should be, I'll refer back to the OP of this thread .

.

6 - If a player doesn't want to be bothered with all that "boring religious stuff", why are they playing a character type that is clearly spelled out to have a priestly role in the culture of the game world? It's stated in the books that shugenja spend most of their time at temples and shrines, engaged in meditation, study, and devotional duties -- and that shugenja encountered "out in the world" are almost always on some specific mission from their lord. Some shugenja schools expect their members to take various acscetic, chastity, etc, vows.

Cause you are not playing the everage Shugenja who is sitting in the temple meditating all day long. As soon as you decide to make this Shugenja a player character which in turn makes hium special. The result is that this special Shuegnja is going to do things the normal ones don´t do and have a different live from the normal Rokugani Shuegenja.

And getting the prietsly stuff as plot hook is not a bad Idea just let it be something cool like comuning with wild fire spirits in a volcano or finding a gate to one of the Spirit Realms you have to close etc.

6 - If a player doesn't want to be bothered with all that "boring religious stuff", why are they playing a character type that is clearly spelled out to have a priestly role in the culture of the game world? It's stated in the books that shugenja spend most of their time at temples and shrines, engaged in meditation, study, and devotional duties -- and that shugenja encountered "out in the world" are almost always on some specific mission from their lord. Some shugenja schools expect their members to take various acscetic, chastity, etc, vows.

Cause you are not playing the everage Shugenja who is sitting in the temple meditating all day long. As soon as you decide to make this Shugenja a player character which in turn makes hium special. The result is that this special Shuegnja is going to do things the normal ones don´t do and have a different live from the normal Rokugani Shuegenja.

And getting the prietsly stuff as plot hook is not a bad Idea just let it be something cool like comuning with wild fire spirits in a volcano or finding a gate to one of the Spirit Realms you have to close etc.

Which goes right back to 3 -- "If there are shugenja who don't get involved in all that "boring stuff", then that needs to be spelled out in the game itself, and explained. Why are their "temple shugenja" and "adventuring shugenja"? What are the differences? Does this vary between clans, or between families?"

There's a remarkable bit of "PC exceptionalism" going on there that's left almost entirely unexplained. The concept of the "iterant monk" is in the game for monks, but there's nothing ever brought up to explain these expectional shugenja who go out in the world and get involved in mysteries and battles and politics and intrigue. At least the various Blackwatch and Exorcist and Witchhunter shugenja have an in-setting reason that they're out wandering the world and setting things right.

And speaking of "PC exceptionalism"... "because they're player characters" or "because they're protagonists" is simply weak sauce when it comes to explaining why certain characters are different.

( E: and before someone jumps in here, that does not mean that PCs cannot be exceptional, only that "because they're PCs" is a rotten reason for the character to be exceptional within the setting -- no, I'm not a fan of the artsy-RPG school of "characters should be nobodies". )

See, now we're getting somewhere - I believe your idea of a "religious duty" is flawed.

Going out and placating an angry spirit isn't a religious duty; it's simply a task that a shugenja is likely (though not definitely) better prepared to handle, due to the study requirements of their cultural role (ie: they put skill points into stuff other than 'swing a stick' and/or 'be a good talker').

"Religious duties" are the boring stuff that no one wants to be saddled with when they sit down at the gaming table - the blessings and births and marriages and so fourth.

2 - If shugenja don't don't go out and deal with the local spirits, who does? Whose duty is that?

5 - Anyone can learn to use a weapon, they don't have to be a Bushi. Anyone can develop the art of polite double-edged conversation, they don't have to be a courtier. While not everyone can directly communicate with the elemental kami, anyone should be able to learn to read the signs of local spirit activity, make offerings, etc... and simply engage in their own relgious devotions.

With 2, any of the player characters could go and deal with the spirits. What would happen would largely depend on the player, the character, the spirit, and the GM.

With 5, look at number 2 response. Anyone could potentially learn multiple skills in areas they may not be effective at. For example, a particularly religious Bushi or monk.

See, now we're getting somewhere - I believe your idea of a "religious duty" is flawed.

Going out and placating an angry spirit isn't a religious duty; it's simply a task that a shugenja is likely (though not definitely) better prepared to handle, due to the study requirements of their cultural role (ie: they put skill points into stuff other than 'swing a stick' and/or 'be a good talker').

"Religious duties" are the boring stuff that no one wants to be saddled with when they sit down at the gaming table - the blessings and births and marriages and so fourth.

2 - If shugenja don't don't go out and deal with the local spirits, who does? Whose duty is that?

5 - Anyone can learn to use a weapon, they don't have to be a Bushi. Anyone can develop the art of polite double-edged conversation, they don't have to be a courtier. While not everyone can directly communicate with the elemental kami, anyone should be able to learn to read the signs of local spirit activity, make offerings, etc... and simply engage in their own relgious devotions.

With 2, any of the player characters could go and deal with the spirits. What would happen would largely depend on the player, the character, the spirit, and the GM.

With 5, look at number 2 response. Anyone could potentially learn multiple skills in areas they may not be effective at. For example, a particularly religious Bushi or monk.

2 - would this apply to the overall setting / culture of Rokugan? I ask because I occasionally get the sense in this discussion that some people -- not necessarily you -- think of the PCs as existing in a sort of vacuum, that these issues only matter as they apply to the PCs.

For me, at least, there needs to be a balance between the PCs' ability to make themselves special, and important... and the sense that the game takes place in a living world that would in fact go on without this particular group of people, even if it would be worse off without them. I do not like the sense I get with some campaigns that the world is just a stage set that shuts down when the PCs are not around.

5 - when you say "not effective", do you mean "not effective otherwise, had they not taken the skills"?

Questions.

What effect would it have if "able to communicate with elemental kami" and "expected to hold a priestly role in society" were disentangled to some degree? Would different clans or familiies then have different expectations of their "gifted"? Would there be more tension between the different schools with divergent approaches to the elemental kami?

Would it make Rokugan better or worse as a setting?

Would it make L5R better or worse as an RPG?

I ask because there seems to be a lot of aversion on the part of some players to the religious role -- but on the other hand the interweving of religion and magic in the setting is both a signature part of what sets it apart from many fantasy RPGs, and perhaps more true to the sorts of cultures that mainly inform the feel of Rokugan.

I guess I can understand the confusion. Just to make sure that the discussion will go to the right direction here's some definition.

The term "kami" as stated in real life ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kami ), it's actually stands for a god, a deity, a divinity or a spirit.

The term "kami" in L5R ( http://l5r.wikia.com/wiki/Kami_%28spirits%29 ) stands for an elemental spirit.

The term "spirit" in L5R ( http://l5r.wikia.com/wiki/Spirit ) stands for all spirits (Known spirits: Bakeneko, Bayushi Baku, Fu Lion, Gaki, Goryo, Kami, Kitsu, Kitsune, Koumori, Kumo, Nue, Shapeshifters, Shisa, Shiyokai and Shuten Doji)

The Shugenja has a strong connection with the kami. Nothing more, unless specified in the Shugenja's School.

I guess I can understand the confusion. Just to make sure that the discussion will go to the right direction (...)

Magic, in Rokugan, is not simply a shugenja bending the elements to his will, magic underlies all activities: the bird taking flight, and the Sun rising each morning. [...] While the average Rokugani understands that magic surrounds them every day, it is still a holy practice, something to be looked upon with wonder.

Interestingly, that section goes on to explicitly describe "record and keep the names of the Fortunes, "act as intermediaries between the world of mortals and spirits," and "commune with the spirits of the dead" as being important parts of the "role of the shugenja" (even though most of those things were no better supported in 3E than they are in 4E).

Listen, nobody is saying we all have to agree about the merits everything that is or could be in the game. It is fine to identify points of intractable, subjective disagreement. It is fine to say, "I see how you got to that perspective, but I don't feel the same." Lives are not at stake here.

But if I'm going to tell people that they're objectively mistaken or confused because of [x thing I think they haven't considered], it's just good courtesy for me to first read all of the foregoing discussion, and figure out what's actually being discussed and what points have already been addressed, before I burst in through a side window going "well actually..."

I guess I can understand the confusion. Just to make sure that the discussion will go to the right direction (...)

Not to pick on just you, Crawd, but this is a GREAT example of what makes this thread intermittently so. frustrating. When you could reply but you'd literally be retyping the exact same post you wrote last week, sentence-for-sentence . Or hey, maybe you could hunt up some relevant bits from the source material... but no, wait, you did that two days ago:

Magic, in Rokugan, is not simply a shugenja bending the elements to his will, magic underlies all activities: the bird taking flight, and the Sun rising each morning. [...] While the average Rokugani understands that magic surrounds them every day, it is still a holy practice, something to be looked upon with wonder.

Interestingly, that section goes on to explicitly describe "record and keep the names of the Fortunes, "act as intermediaries between the world of mortals and spirits," and "commune with the spirits of the dead" as being important parts of the "role of the shugenja" (even though most of those things were no better supported in 3E than they are in 4E).

(And that's without even touching the assumption that article titles in the fan wiki imply consistentency in the use of particular terms in the source material itself, but anyway.)

Listen, nobody is saying we all have to agree about the merits everything that is or could be in the game. It is fine to identify points of intractable, subjective disagreement. It is fine to say, "I see how you got to that perspective, but I don't feel the same." Lives are not at stake here.

But if I'm going to tell people that they're objectively mistaken or confused because of [x thing I think they haven't considered], it's just good courtesy for me to first read all of the foregoing discussion, and figure out what's actually being discussed and what points have already been addressed, before I burst in through a side window going "well actually..."

I would agree if I was the one that wrote that, but I don't use multiple accounts.

When I look at the link you've sent, I'm seeing: "Moto Subodei, on 03 Nov 2015 - 3:08 PM, said:" not "Crawd, on 11 Nov 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:".

Then you said that I did something 2 days ago, yet the quote is from Bremathon not me.

You might not want to pick on me but at least blame me for the real things!

See, now we're getting somewhere - I believe your idea of a "religious duty" is flawed.

Going out and placating an angry spirit isn't a religious duty; it's simply a task that a shugenja is likely (though not definitely) better prepared to handle, due to the study requirements of their cultural role (ie: they put skill points into stuff other than 'swing a stick' and/or 'be a good talker').

"Religious duties" are the boring stuff that no one wants to be saddled with when they sit down at the gaming table - the blessings and births and marriages and so fourth.

2 - If shugenja don't don't go out and deal with the local spirits, who does? Whose duty is that?

5 - Anyone can learn to use a weapon, they don't have to be a Bushi. Anyone can develop the art of polite double-edged conversation, they don't have to be a courtier. While not everyone can directly communicate with the elemental kami, anyone should be able to learn to read the signs of local spirit activity, make offerings, etc... and simply engage in their own relgious devotions.

With 2, any of the player characters could go and deal with the spirits. What would happen would largely depend on the player, the character, the spirit, and the GM.

With 5, look at number 2 response. Anyone could potentially learn multiple skills in areas they may not be effective at. For example, a particularly religious Bushi or monk.

2 - would this apply to the overall setting / culture of Rokugan? I ask because I occasionally get the sense in this discussion that some people -- not necessarily you -- think of the PCs as existing in a sort of vacuum, that these issues only matter as they apply to the PCs.

For me, at least, there needs to be a balance between the PCs' ability to make themselves special, and important... and the sense that the game takes place in a living world that would in fact go on without this particular group of people, even if it would be worse off without them. I do not like the sense I get with some campaigns that the world is just a stage set that shuts down when the PCs are not around.

5 - when you say "not effective", do you mean "not effective otherwise, had they not taken the skills"?

2- That depends entirely on the character in question. Could a GM make a character that can deal with spirits without being a Shugenja? Obviously yes. Could the players be allowed to try and do something with a spirit despite not being a Shugenja? Yes again. Could GM could make a spirit that has to be talked to by a Shugenja or otherwise special human? Yes again.

5-I mean not as effective. Like a player in Pathfinder who has 4 points in a skill compared to another player that might have 8. The player with 8 has a better chance to succeed than the player with 4. Things like player actions would also help or hinder or even use actions that do not rely on skills/stats.

I would agree if I was the one that wrote that, but I don't use multiple accounts.

When I look at the link you've sent, I'm seeing: "Moto Subodei, on 03 Nov 2015 - 3:08 PM, said:" not "Crawd, on 11 Nov 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:".

Then you said that I did something 2 days ago, yet the quote is from Bremathon not me.

You might not want to pick on me but at least blame me for the real things!

I know those posts weren't written in reply to you. In fact, that's pretty much my point. If two people independently make the same argument, should it really be necessary to reply to each one individually, even if the replies would be exactly the same ? If that were true, the conversation would never go anywhere, because every time someone comes in in media res we'd have to stop and go back to the very beginning, over and over and...

Or we could instead, rather reasonably, ask that everyone make some attempt to track the whole conversation, rather than ignore everything that hasn't been directly addressed to them by name.

Does the content of what I wrote in those older posts address the content of yours? That's what matters.

(It occurs to me that it may not have come across that all the "you"s after the first in my post are rhetorical. They are. General "you." I could as easily have used "one" or "a person" or whatever.)

2 - would this apply to the overall setting / culture of Rokugan? I ask because I occasionally get the sense in this discussion that some people -- not necessarily you -- think of the PCs as existing in a sort of vacuum, that these issues only matter as they apply to the PCs.

For me, at least, there needs to be a balance between the PCs' ability to make themselves special, and important... and the sense that the game takes place in a living world that would in fact go on without this particular group of people, even if it would be worse off without them. I do not like the sense I get with some campaigns that the world is just a stage set that shuts down when the PCs are not around.

2- That depends entirely on the character in question. Could a GM make a character that can deal with spirits without being a Shugenja? Obviously yes. Could the players be allowed to try and do something with a spirit despite not being a Shugenja? Yes again. Could GM could make a spirit that has to be talked to by a Shugenja or otherwise special human? Yes again.

I think you guys are still talking past one another here. MaxKilljoy asks, "would this apply to the overall setting / culture of Rokugan?"--implying, if I'm not projecting too much here, 'Does this mean that theoretically anybody out there in Rokugan can be interacting directly and efficaciously with local spirits? (And if not, why not?) If so, what kinds of situations does this produce in everyday life? How would it play out in terms of samurai and peasant education and religion? How is that going to be reflected in social institutions? In short, how does the existence of this possibility affect all the background worldbuilding and the resultant feel of the setting, not (just) the stuff the PCs and their NPC costars can do?' Kubernes then replies again in terms of stats and allowable actions for PCs and the GM-controlled NPCs they interact with, which doesn't really answer Killjoy's question at all.

I guess I can understand the confusion. Just to make sure that the discussion will go to the right direction here's some definition.

The term "kami" as stated in real life ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kami ), it's actually stands for a god, a deity, a divinity or a spirit.

The term "kami" in L5R ( http://l5r.wikia.com/wiki/Kami_(spirits) ) stands for an elemental spirit.

The term "spirit" in L5R ( http://l5r.wikia.com/wiki/Spirit ) stands for all spirits (Known spirits: Bakeneko, Bayushi Baku, Fu Lion, Gaki, Goryo, Kami, Kitsu, Kitsune, Koumori, Kumo, Nue, Shapeshifters, Shisa, Shiyokai and Shuten Doji)

The Shugenja has a strong connection with the kami. Nothing more, unless specified in the Shugenja's School.

There's no confusion. We all understand that's what's currently "Rokugan as written" when it's explicitly stated what special gift shugenja have. (Although there's this group of beings called "Kami" who aren't elemental spirits.)

The problem is, there's reference after reference after reference to shugenja, in their priestly role, having duties that go far beyond just the elemental kami. The Tao, Ancestors, other spirits, other spiritual and ritual matters, etc, and etc, are all mentioned in paragraph after paragraph dealing with the role of the shugenja in Rokugani religion. Some of us even posted page references and quoted paragraphs at one point on this very thread.

2 - would this apply to the overall setting / culture of Rokugan? I ask because I occasionally get the sense in this discussion that some people -- not necessarily you -- think of the PCs as existing in a sort of vacuum, that these issues only matter as they apply to the PCs.

For me, at least, there needs to be a balance between the PCs' ability to make themselves special, and important... and the sense that the game takes place in a living world that would in fact go on without this particular group of people, even if it would be worse off without them. I do not like the sense I get with some campaigns that the world is just a stage set that shuts down when the PCs are not around.

2- That depends entirely on the character in question. Could a GM make a character that can deal with spirits without being a Shugenja? Obviously yes. Could the players be allowed to try and do something with a spirit despite not being a Shugenja? Yes again. Could GM could make a spirit that has to be talked to by a Shugenja or otherwise special human? Yes again.

I think you guys are still talking past one another here. MaxKilljoy asks, "would this apply to the overall setting / culture of Rokugan?"--implying, if I'm not projecting too much here, 'Does this mean that theoretically anybody out there in Rokugan can be interacting directly and efficaciously with local spirits? (And if not, why not?) If so, what kinds of situations does this produce in everyday life? How would it play out in terms of samurai and peasant education and religion? How is that going to be reflected in social institutions? In short, how does the existence of this possibility affect all the background worldbuilding and the resultant feel of the setting, not (just) the stuff the PCs and their NPC costars can do?' Kubernes then replies again in terms of stats and allowable actions for PCs and the GM-controlled NPCs they interact with, which doesn't really answer Killjoy's question at all.

Part of my point in asking was to find out why Kubernes' response immediately went to "any PC can do it?" Why "the PCs?" Why not anyone else who isn't a player character? What happened during all those centuries before the player characters were born? What happens in all the villages where the player characters have never visited? What will happen when the player characters have all gone?

You can't build an entire fictional world around "the player characters will handle this important cultural/social function".

The problem is, there's reference after reference after reference to shugenja, in their priestly role, having duties that go far beyond just the elemental kami. The Tao, Ancestors, other spirits, other spiritual and ritual matters, etc, and etc, are all mentioned in paragraph after paragraph dealing with the role of the shugenja in Rokugani religion. Some of us even posted page references and quoted paragraphs at one point on this very thread.

Shugenja are expected to be knowledgable about a wide variety of things, including other spirit realms and other spirit creatures.

That goes hand-in-hand with "being Priests."

But that doesn't mean they are designed to specifically interact with spirits other than kami just because they are shugenja. That is the disconnect, and it's something the previously quoted references doesn't address.

Part of my point in asking was to find out why Kubernes' response immediately went to "any PC can do it?" Why "the PCs?" Why not anyone else who isn't a player character? What happened during all those centuries before the player characters were born? What happens in all the villages where the player characters have never visited? What will happen when the player characters have all gone?

You can't build an entire fictional world around "the player characters will handle this important cultural/social function".

"The PCs" are the assumption because that is what we are playing as, so that is how it is going to be relevant to a player.

The longer explanation is that it doesn't have to be "just the PCs" and NPCs will be handling these issues in any area that the PCs aren't handling it in.

The world isn't built around "the player characters will handle this important cultural/social function," - The game is. That's... kind of the point of being a PC, no?

As a thought experiment, let's see how thoroughly and from how many angles one can respond to the post above just by actually reading stuff that's already been posted here. This is by no means comprehensive, either.

Q:

Shugenja are expected to be knowledgable about a wide variety of things, including other spirit realms and other spirit creatures.

That goes hand-in-hand with "being Priests."

But that doesn't mean they are designed to specifically interact with spirits other than kami just because they are shugenja. That is the disconnect, and it's something the previously quoted references doesn't address.

A:

no one is mixing up elemental kami with other spirits. Many people in this thread, including Kinzen in the post you mention, are instead suggesting that both lore and mechanics could use clarification and, yes, some improvement on this point. According to the lore and setting fluff generally, Shugenja are supposed to be the main spiritual interface of Rokugani society (in the same way that Bushi are the martial interface and Courtiers the courtly one). Mechanically, however, they're distinguished mainly by using a lot of spells and spells are built--mostly pretty directly--around the physical elements in a way that only slightly incorporates anything else spiritual. The lore definitely doesn't come out and say "Shugenja deal with the elements and don't deal with other aspects of spirituality" (indeed, more the opposite, if anything), it's just that with a few exceptions that's what the mechanics support. And that is at least in some part, as others have pointed out, because of how many spells have been ported over from CCG cards...

[...]

TL;DR: No one (well, hardly anyone) is confused about how things work right now . We just have a variety of opinions about how it could work better in the future. This is a pretty important distinction.

There's no confusion. We all understand that's what's currently "Rokugan as written" when it's explicitly stated what special gift shugenja have. (Although there's this group of beings called "Kami" who aren't elemental spirits.)

The problem is, there's reference after reference after reference to shugenja, in their priestly role, having duties that go far beyond just the elemental kami.

I actually also noticed, in going back to look at the dawn of the empire chapter in IH, that both there and in other spots there's some talk about how the teachings of Shinsei and their integration with Fortunism were what allowed shugenja to develop the understanding of and rapport with the spirits necessary to cast pure elemental spells (i.e. without spilling blood). I'd forgotten all about that because, again, it's not very relevant to how shugenja actually play in practice, even though it's kind of cool and really deserves more focus.

"Magic, in Rokugan, is not simply a shugenja bending the elements to his will, magic underlies all activities: the bird taking flight, and the Sun rising each morning. [...] While the average Rokugani understands that magic surrounds them every day, it is still a holy practice, something to be looked upon with wonder."

Interestingly, that section goes on to explicitly describe "record and keep the names of the Fortunes, "act as intermediaries between the world of mortals and spirits," and "commune with the spirits of the dead" as being important parts of the "role of the shugenja" (even though most of those things were no better supported in 3E than they are in 4E).

(the thread OP:)

What I want is for the game mechanics to match what the setting is trying to tell me.

Q:

"The PCs" are the assumption because that is what we are playing as, so that is how it is going to be relevant to a player.

The longer explanation is that it doesn't have to be "just the PCs" and NPCs will be handling these issues in any area that the PCs aren't handling it in.

The world isn't built around "the player characters will handle this important cultural/social function," - The game is. That's... kind of the point of being a PC, no?

A:

MaxKilljoy asks, "would this apply to the overall setting / culture of Rokugan?"--implying, if I'm not projecting too much here, 'Does this mean that theoretically anybody out there in Rokugan can be interacting directly and efficaciously with local spirits? (And if not, why not?) If so, what kinds of situations does this produce in everyday life? How would it play out in terms of samurai and peasant education and religion? How is that going to be reflected in social institutions? In short, how does the existence of this possibility affect all the background worldbuilding and the resultant feel of the setting , not (just) the stuff the PCs and their NPC costars can do?'

(link posted to http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/magic/antiscience.html , which contains a variety of thoughts and suggestions, including:)

"While scientific magic systems have their place, I think there should be more games with non-scientific magic systems... magic evocative of myth and folklore, as well as fantasy fiction which draws on myth and folklore, like J.R.R. Tolkien or Charles De Lint.... In order to create a non-scientific system of magic, you need to consider the basic principles on which magic works. As a designer, you should think about what magic means in your campaign world before you start defining stats or die rolls.

[...]

"A typical fantasy RPG magic system consists solely of rules for the useful magical abilities of player characters (PC's) and their potential opponents. Thus, if the party has no PC magicians and are not facing any magician opponents, the magic system can be ignored. In myth and folklore, however, magic often happens without anyone casting deliberate spells. There are magical events such as omens, visions, destinies, lucky objects, and miracles. There are also magical places and magical times. Lastly, there is magic of circumstance. ...

"In terms of RPGs, breaking this assumption means thinking of magic as more than just spells cast by PC's and NPC's."

+11111 to all of that. There's nothing wrong with that kind of magic -- but it makes the magic feel very modern, scientific, and game-like, rather than spiritual.

[...]even magic, supernatural, and "the rule of cool" (or, in Mike Pondsmith's words "style over substance") have their own set of rules that preserve the suspension of disbelief and, within the game's world, preserve realism and help things make sense.

...and I'm out of permitted quote-boxes, else I could go on.

After a while it gets frustrating to keep participating in a conversation when your interlocutors seem to be responding as if they've only actually noticed about half the things that are said.

-stuff... so much stuff...-

So you're addressing me specifically, so let me answer:

Your first "Q&A" don't actually relate to each other the way you think they do, which is why I felt comfortable making the post.

Magic is not required to fulfill the "societal duties" of a shugenja. Magic has nothing to do with it. A Matsu bushi who invests enough skill points into the relevant Lore skills will be perfectly capable of fulfilling the role of the religious leader that is typically reserved for shugenja including being a spiritual intermediary .

"Spirits" in Rokugan usually aren't intangible beings that only special people can communicate with. A Kitsune is considered a spirt - it is flesh and blood. Ditto Ryu. Ditto any number of other examples one could find. And even those spirits which are typically intangible, such as gaki for example, tend to make themselves known to whomever they wish, shugenja or not.

There exists this assumed correlation between shugenja being spell casters and shugenja being spiritual leaders and, really, that's just not the case.

The reality is the fact that they are spell casters leads them to pursue scholarly knowledge related to the kami and other spirits far more than any other would, which gives them a greater insight into these matters. But, again, anyone who puts in the time and effort (and experience point investment) can play the part as well.

That shugenja are capable of communicating with the elemental kami simply gives them an edge that others don't have, much the same way that bushi have techniques that give them an edge over non-bushi in combat, and courtiers have techniques that give them an edge over non-courtiers in politics.

As to your second "Q&A," my post is unrelated to the post of yours that you quoted.

To answer your quoted post, however: Elemental kami are the only spirits that definitely do not communicate with anyone other than shugenja. Other types of spirits absolutely can, and do, communicate with non-shugenja whenever they feel like it.

As for how that reflects on the setting from a world-building point of view? All of that is already described in the source material. (ie: The day-to-day of Religion and Spirits and how they interact with the world.)

It's like this post was skipped entirely, along with several others.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191735-rpg-shugenja-huh-what-are-you-good-for/page-19#entry1890065

It's been made clear several times that several of us are not having a discussion about what's already in the game, and in fact are pointing out both how the game fails to match "crunch and fluff" within itself ( which it does, and we've given examples already, so stop asking for what's already been given ), and what could be done to address that from the ground up, which includes hypothetical changes from bottom to top. In the context of that discussion, nothing is "sacred".

If you want to restrict your own discussion to what already exists inside the published material, that's fine, but please please please be aware that you're then not having the same discussion that some of us are. Stop demanding "source material" references from inside the existing L5R material in response to people who are clearly not restricting their own discussion to that box.

We're going in circles here because some people keep responding to a discussion of " what should be " (and yes that's a matter of opinion, no need to point that out again) as if it were a discussion of what already is .

It's as if some of us are standing here looking at a river and talking about how there should be a bridge here, and how we'd build that bridge, and what the trade-offs might be... and every so often, a couple of people standing nearby shout "There's no bridge there!"

You want opinion, here's my opinion on this idea. Honestly, that's nonsense. FFG will not restart the whole existing lore of the game because that's basically bad marketting. Why? Because they will lose a lot of the current communauty. Sure they may remove a few things here and there, but I really doubt that they would change anything to the lore Pre-Clan War.

No one is calling for a complete rework or throwing everything out to start over from scratch.

I am.

The current community is very small, not enough to support a game. That was why it was sold. Deciding not to go back and fix cracks in the foundation during their one and only chance to do so because it would lose a lot of the current community, the one that is too small to support a game, would be a very stupid decision.

And no, I don't think explicitly "reworking the setting from the ground up to make shugenja work better" is going to have the customers flocking to the game. But "reworking the setting from the ground up to be coherent and focused and good at doing all of the things it needs to be doing" will.

The problem is, there's reference after reference after reference to shugenja, in their priestly role, having duties that go far beyond just the elemental kami. The Tao, Ancestors, other spirits, other spiritual and ritual matters, etc, and etc, are all mentioned in paragraph after paragraph dealing with the role of the shugenja in Rokugani religion. Some of us even posted page references and quoted paragraphs at one point on this very thread.

Shugenja are expected to be knowledgable about a wide variety of things, including other spirit realms and other spirit creatures.

That goes hand-in-hand with "being Priests."

But that doesn't mean they are designed to specifically interact with spirits other than kami just because they are shugenja. That is the disconnect, and it's something the previously quoted references doesn't address.

The disconnect is in the game as written, not in anyone's understanding of it. It tells us one thing, and then shows us another.

Quote after quote after quote from the rules as written have been given, making it quite plain where the game-as-written tells us what is expected of shugnenja in Rokugani society.

Then the rules of the game-as-written show us something else.

After a while it gets frustrating to keep participating in a conversation when your interlocutors seem to be responding as if they've only actually noticed about half the things that are said.

That's the understatement of the month so far.