A couple of things to consider.

Every Shugenja school I'm looking at here in the books lists Lore: Theology as a school skill.

Second, in Emerald Empire , the glossary entry for Shugenja (pg 272) starts as follows: "A priest of the kami, a religious official in the ranks of the samurai caste..."

We'll have to see if that actually holds up in the lcg and the new rpg. I also remember that some catholic priests or monks (or even priests of other faiths) didn't mind accompanying warriors in history. Of course we're talking about different religions and universes but there's enough leeway there to do many different things. I'd also imagine that shugenja in the lcg will probably remain primarily spell flingers which would only reinforce the notion of a battle wizard and eat away at the whole priest angle.

I don't think the priestly role alone would have any bearing whether Shugenja go into battle in war, get involved in court, go on the road for whatever reason, etc. That would be far more a matter of clan, family, school, and individual -- not something that would blanket-apply to all Shugenja.

The vehemence is coming from the presumption of fact from some people in this thread.

People are really hung up on this priest thing, which fair enough, if the 4th ed books goes to great lengths to keep pushing, I guess it all comes from perspective and experience over the years. If 4th ed was your starting point of the game I can see how your perspective may be different. Much like if you started in 3rd ed, 2nd ed or 1st ed.

The thing with the priest argument is Rokugan doesn't seem like the kind of culture where samurai go to church every sunday, and there is a priest there pontificating to them about what bad people are. There are some important rituals that are observed, and Shugs get roped into this. If you have a question about theology in general, then shugenja are the go to guys, basically because they have a direct line.

Is it at all a possibility that we are projecting our real life intuition of what a priest is and should be, from our culture onto what a Rokugani "priest" does and how they function? Shugenja need to learn about the spiritual side of Rokugan because it ties in with their work on the Kami. They however don't hand out holy communion ever sunday, baptise people and give confession!

Again i will draw a comparison to bushi. Bushi's main role is for war. If there is a fight going on somewhere, between their lord and another lord, he is required to show up and break some necks. Some bushi may only see this once or twice in their life time. Just because their duty is not called upon every single day, does not mean there is a contradiction in their function. It is the same for shugs. They perform special ceremonies, but as I said, they aren't meant to be like catholic priests.

" Priest " has a far broader meaning across the cultures and religions of the world than "every Sunday it is his job to pontificate to the congregation about their moral and character failings" -- if anything, thinking of "priest" as meaning destinctly and specifically the local Christian clergyman might be the presumption.

When we say "the game is telling us shugenja are priests but not doing much to show us that they are", we aren't in any way saying that they're meant to be quasi-Shinto clones of stereotypical Catholic priests.

Start here and look around, the role of "priest" is far, far older than Christianity, or really anything like any of the Abrahamic religions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest#Ancient_priests_and_priestesses

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest#Eastern_religions

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest#Indigenous_and_ethnic_religions

That's true. Why not just take a page from the recent Star Wars force books and simply present the Shugenja player enough viable options so they could make a 'wizard' like spellcaster, a more priestly type, or any other type?

Does that fit what Rokugan is, or what a significant number of players want Rokugan to be? Does it fit within the framework of coherent worldbuilding?

If the answer is "yes" to both questions, then it's something to consider . One would still need to consider how many players would be firmly against such a change.

Whether intentionally, or unintentionally you are entirely missing the point I am making.

What I am saying is, every religion, theology or whatever have their own unique duties of what a "priest" is and does. Trying to make any of these fit, or direct how a Shugenja in Rokugan operates is pretty pointless. They fulfill the roles they need for Rokugan. Any presumptions from extraneous sources, be it real life, or your own interpretation or presumption as to what a priest "should" be don't have any bearing whatsoever on Shugenja in Rokugan.

They are what they are. They perform ceremonies like marriages and funerals. They can commune with the kami and they help guide people spiritiually. They do all this in the lore, these are the duties they perform, so I really fail to see where the contradiction is. If the contradiction is based on the presumption that they should do more then I would ask to point where they have failed to fulfill their duties as outlined by the lore.

I'm trying to find a way to point out the irony of your first sentence without being a jerk about it... you've been fairly consistantly arguing against things that people haven't really been saying.

And, I'm not sure how to constructively respond when it looks like first you're telling us that we shouldn't be looking at them as "priests" based on an image of Catholic priests preaching on Sundays, and then when it's pointed out that we're not thinking of that narrow sort of priest, you proceed to tell us that there are all sorts of priests ( in response to a post full of links to a broad range of priests).

That said, the word "priest" does mean something , and "can talk to kami, and use that ability to invoke effects" isn't really it.

I am fully intending on pointing out that it can be as broad or as narrow as it wants. it is my entire point. You cannot prsume what it means, all you can do is reason with it within the parameters of the game. Priest has a meaning, yes, much different meanings based on culture or context, but all that matters is what it's meaning within rokugan is. You deciding that it doesn't simply mean that they are able to talk to the Kami doesn't make your supposition true, especially when you aren't really pointing to anywhere that it even remotely implies that. The SOLE reason they are considered priestly figures is exactly for that reason, because they have a direct line to the kami. That is the premise.

Now you can argue that you dislike the premise til the cows come home, and that is fine. But just becasue you don't like the premise, does not mean that it is either breaking the game or even contradictory.

"Have we somehow gone from violent disagreement to violent agreement? Couldn't we have dropped the 'violent' part, then?

This thread (digressions aside) has basically been about ways the new edition might provide more support for the many senses of "commune with the kami and they help guide people spiritually" that have always been in the lore but, given the way the RPG is constructed, don't tend to come out much in play (where shugenja by and large become 'magical support for the areas the other classes are good at'). If you don't have a problem with that premise, what are we arguing about?"

About this part Locust, I am not trying to just disagree or agree with people. I am just speaking from my own experience and opinion. The point I am making about the commonality is that is WHY shugenja are thrust into the role of "Priest". The one thing a shugenja absolutely HAS to do is be able to commune etc with the kami, that is what makes them a shugenja. The priest part is actually, from my reading of the setting, a peripheral thing. They can perform the "priestly" things but it is not what makes them shugenja, it is not a role defining profession, it is more incidental than integral. Their personal choice and style comes into it also as some of them might not give a **** about performing weddings, and they would get away with never performing a single wedding. It is kind of up to every shugenja how involved they are with the priest things. Basically all shugenja can talk to the kami, but not all those who talk to the kami have to be priests. On the otherside however, a samurai who cannot commune with the kami, would not be considered "divine" enough to perform a wedding for samurai. They might have theology 6 with an emphasis on religious ceremonies but it wouldn't matter if they can't talk to the kami. All that said however, if a shugenja wants to make his life's work be nothing except religious ceremony, there would be a place for that too.

There are contradictions as far as I am concerned in the setting with shugenja however, and they don't really break the game but just show some inconsistencies for sure. For example how can the Death Priests can reason with being so close to the Shi Tien Yen Wang ? I understand that later on some fiction was written that brought them in line, but I never understood how up until then, the kami would not disown then for their worship of foreign spirits. Something I have always thought about, even though thematically deathpriests are one of my favourite things in the setting.

You touch on "why are they thrust in the role of priest?" in your paragraph right there.

They're thrust in that role because

A)There is a limited number of people who can speak to the kami

B)Speaking to the Kami is essential for a wide number of rituals.

C)Being on good terms with the kami is critical in Rokugani daily life. Angry kami can really mess your day.

At that point, shugenja get thrust in the priestly role because only they can truly fulfill it, and of all roles they might possibly have to fulfill, it's the most critical one.

Hence why tradition demand priesthood out of Shugenja.

From earlier...

A couple of things to consider.

Every Shugenja school I'm looking at here in the books lists Lore: Theology as a school skill.

Second, in Emerald Empire , the glossary entry for Shugenja (pg 272) starts as follows: "A priest of the kami, a religious official in the ranks of the samurai caste..."

... and once I get home I'll try to find more.


You (Moto) say "thrust into the role" as if the cultural/social duties of priests are just something that's shoved off on them only because they can talk to the elemental kami, as opposed to an integral part, in Rokugani culture, of being one of the rare people who can speak with the kami. As if it's just "Eh, we need someone to perform a wedding... you, over there, the kami-talking-guy".


Regarding using the word "priest" -- first, while priests in various religions haven't been identical, the word does mean something and refers to a specific social role. If their role in Rokugani culture/society is not something that's covered by the word priest, then we shouldn't be calling them priests at all.

Second ( and no, no one needs to repeat the "Rokugan is not Japan" mantra, we get it ) there is a clear inspiration for the Shugenja in the Shinto priests of Japan, and the shamans of the traditions of east and central Asia. We can draw some conclusions about the likely social role of Shugenja-as-priests from those real-world inspirations.

E: for clarity.

Inspiration yes, but that doesn't have to mean an extreme rigid point. I look at the many different types of jedi alone in the new Star Wars rpg and I can see many different options for Shugenja too. You could do a very rigid priest that only does X but a second priest should have the option to do Y instead. That Y could just be playing with animal kami or being some sort of generic wizard.

The real world examples of Shinto, Miko, or the other various shamanistic veins are great to draw from but in the end I would also stress that the writer would make the rpg as their own adaptation of those various source materials and the existing source material. For example, if the game takes more of combat orientated focus compared to what it is now I would expect the spell aspect pushed while the priestly role is diminished.

Hence why tradition demand priesthood out of Shugenja.

Yep. But it isn't the raison d'etre for every shugenja. I can only speak for myself, but I don't think they shouldn't ever be, or aren't ever mainly "priests", just that doesn't mean all, or even a majority of them need to be.

I'd imagine actually, (Yes using my own imagination! ) that if a rokugani samurai were to be getting married, or a loved one died, they'd want the shug they were closest to for the ceremony, instead of the local priest.

I think on principal we all agree on most things. The debate really seems to be whether or not the role of priest is a fixed or default one for shugenja. Which is arguable both ways certainly.

From earlier...

Second ( and no, no one needs to repeat the "Rokugan is not Japan" mantra, we get it ) there is a clear inspiration for the Shugenja in the Shinto priests of Japan, and the shamans of the traditions of east and central Asia. We can draw some conclusions about the likely social role of Shugenja-as-priests from those real-world inspirations.

It's really not relevant. It's like saying, protestant priests can get married, so catholic ones should too. That is a difference between two denominations of the same faith, Let alone between the real life and a faith from a fantasy setting in a world that doesn't actually exist!

When you draw conclusions about the "likely" role of shugenja as priest, you really end up in the realm of opinion and interpretation. Some might like to draw outside influences of real life priests, and cast those similarities onto their shugs in Rokugan. If that is what you like, that is your perogative, do that for your games. Some other people may prefer to see Shugenja as something that exist within the fantasy world of Rokugan, and are not bound by extraneous conventions. Again, that's their choice.

The trick is, not to speak in absolutes about what things should and shouldn't be, because ultimately, you cannot prove nor disprove a subjective opinion. I know it is easy to say, but it is definitely something us nerds have a hard time doing!

Personally, I think having it so open to interpretation is a nice thing. Everyone can come up with their own view of it then.

When worldbuilding, leaving a bunch of foundational segments of the world "open to interpretation" is... counter-productive.

When worldbuilding, leaving a bunch of foundational segments of the world "open to interpretation" is... counter-productive.

The foundations of it is there. What you have been spending the whole time here discussing has been particulars.

When worldbuilding, leaving a bunch of foundational segments of the world "open to interpretation" is... counter-productive.

The foundations of it is there. What you have been spending the whole time here discussing has been particulars.

This entire thread has turned into proof that it's not there.

When fundamental details like "what role do people who can affect the fabric of reality play in society?" are treated as unimportant "particulars", you end up with a self-contradicting incoherent mess.

----

As for Shugenja... I'm going to start perusing the books for references... we'll start here, on page 116 of The Great Clans .

"...the Kitsu serve as the clan's priests and spiritual advisers, guiding the Lion in worship not only of the kami but also and especially of the ancestors."

Page 182 of that book, referencing the Isawa...

"The family was founded by Isawa himself along with his children, and began as a collection of sorcerers who were also priests of the Fortunes. Shinsei's arrival and teachings allowed the Isawa to seek a more enlightened form of magic, mastering the art of calling on the kami to cast elemental spells. The wisdom of Shinsei challenged the Isawa's competitive spirit, but once they saw the wisdom and power inherent in his teachings they gladly adopted them and happily accepted the Emperor's command that Shinseism be merged with the worship of the Fortunes. Thus was born a tradition of magic and religion that shaped the role of shugenja throughout the Empire."

or page 183 regarding same...

"...furthermore, as guardians of the Tao and home to the first shugenja ever to walk the Empire, they have a legitimate claim to their position as the masters of all matters spiritual."

page 51 of TGC :

"Most of the members of the Asahina live in the family's principle stronghold, Shinden Asahina. This temple complex is one of the great holy sites of the Empire, and every year numerous pilgrims visit it to offer their devotions..."

There's the Wikia entry (I know, I know) for shugenja as well.

You touch on "why are they thrust in the role of priest?" in your paragraph right there.

They're thrust in that role because

A)There is a limited number of people who can speak to the kami

I can agree with your here. Their are supose to be a limited number of shugenja in the empire and the game has always been portrayed that way

B)Speaking to the Kami is essential for a wide number of rituals.

Really? Has this ever been stated in this way in the game? The Brotherhood of shinsei provides for the religious need of most of the empire. So for most of the empire they do not need to speak with the kami. I think it would be true if you said a narrow set of rituals but sertianly not a wide or majority of them. ( I am seeing wide here as essentially the same as wide.)

C)Being on good terms with the kami is critical in Rokugani daily life. Angry kami can really mess your day.

At that point, shugenja get thrust in the priestly role because only they can truly fulfill it, and of all roles they might possibly have to fulfill, it's the most critical one.

Hence why tradition demand priesthood out of Shugenja.

Again, Elemental Kami are not the same as the kami spirits, your ancestors or the fortunes. Angry kami can make things go badly but when it comes down to an individual person they are about appeasing the ancestors and the local fortunes. the Elemental Kami have nothing to do with their dailly life of the vast majority of people in the empire. Now its true, that they can do all these things but again, what does priesthood mean and what does it mean to fulfil that respocability. In the civilization of rokugan it does involve ritual and such, but they also have many monks who fulfil the vast majority of those rituals. The elemental Kami are in many cases not relevant to those things.

Because of this we have to ask ourselves what is it that the elemental kami do and we have to not confuse them with all the other spirits in the empire.

From my perspective your argument here is far weaker than, I believe, you think it is. Everything that a shugnja does will likely involve the aid of the elemental kami, including for example forging a blade. If a shugenja becomes a smith, as is well known in the agasha and Tamori families, then the forging becomes a holy practice. The Same is true for the Tamori who stand with the Mirumoto in battle. The battles that Tamori Yamabushi fight in are sacred events as far as the participants are concerned, with the same being true of the few cases when the Isawa march. The Yoritomo would be thrilled if they had a Shugenja Shipwright.

The real thing that holds them back in the empire is that if they procead down these duel roles they become masters of none. Its also true that the game does reward this by not having a reason to get theology 10 in most campaigns, but honestly that is up to the GM in the current design. (Though one way to handle this would be to limit spell mastery levels to half the characters Lore: Theology, Lore: Element Skill, or both.) The GM has to make the campaign have a reason for a shugenja be spiritual.

B)Speaking to the Kami is essential for a wide number of rituals.

Really? Has this ever been stated in this way in the game? The Brotherhood of shinsei provides for the religious need of most of the empire. So for most of the empire they do not need to speak with the kami. I think it would be true if you said a narrow set of rituals but sertianly not a wide or majority of them. ( I am seeing wide here as essentially the same as wide.)

This is one of those places where the game contradicts itself, regarding who is fulfilling which spiritual, ritual, ceremonial, and social needs. If you check my next-most-recent post, you'll see where I'm gathering references to Shugenja being religious figures.

Yeah, there's been a lot of contradiction on shugenja vs. monks. I wrote a fair amount of the monk stuff in later 4e, and put them in roles where they acted as spiritual advisers to samurai because the edition up until that point had said so little about shugenja as religious leaders, and because otherwise monks seemed really irrelevant to the game; then I got people objecting on the grounds that monks act in that capacity for heimin, but not for samurai, and that such matters were always the responsibility of shugenja. Either answer could work, but it would be nice if there was a consistent answer as to which one is correct. (Or even a consistent answer that it's monks in one clan and shugenja in another.)

Yeah, there's been a lot of contradiction on shugenja vs. monks. I wrote a fair amount of the monk stuff in later 4e, and put them in roles where they acted as spiritual advisers to samurai because the edition up until that point had said so little about shugenja as religious leaders, and because otherwise monks seemed really irrelevant to the game; then I got people objecting on the grounds that monks act in that capacity for heimin, but not for samurai, and that such matters were always the responsibility of shugenja. Either answer could work, but it would be nice if there was a consistent answer as to which one is correct. (Or even a consistent answer that it's monks in one clan and shugenja in another.)

I worked monks into my games by emulating the relationship between shinsei and the kami.

Shinsei offered a lot to the kami in way of wisdom, but it was never "magic". My understanding of Kiho's is that they can cast them becasue they become so attuned with the elements they get special kung fu moves.

They also teach a different set of lessons than shugs do.

the Elemental Kami have nothing to do with their dailly life of the vast majority of people in the empire.

This is the only part of your post where I really truly went "huh, what?" Elemental kami have nothing to do with daily life? If anything they have the most connection of all the spiritual forces in Rokugan to everyday life, albeit in a diffuse way. They're the elements--they're nature . In an agrarian society . The elemental kami are Rokugani religion at the grassroots, part of the same hierarchy that runs from the Sun and Moon through the Major and Minor Fortunes down to all these little animistic spirits of trees/rocks/breezes/etc. (If you need a cite for that, the most obvious one is the third paragraph under the heading of the "Religion and Philosophy" section in the 4E corebook's Book of Air. Before any mention of ancestor worship, actually!)

If you're, say, a river fisherman (or a rural samurai whose domain is full of river fishermen), you venerate Ebisu in a general sort of way without expecting his particular attention, you make more specific and frequent offerings to the Minor Fortunes of rivers and fishermen, and you think about and are courteous to the water kami in your stretch of the river every hour of your working day, because from hour to hour it's largely thanks to them if you have a really good haul (or a really bad one).

If this doesn't come out enough in gameplay, I'd say it's largely because of the exact thing we've been spending so much time discussing here--shugenja are given exactly one thing they can do uniquely well (talk to the elemental kami, and thereby cast spells). But nobody else but shugenja has any practical entree into this area of interaction at all, because only shugenja can actually directly commune with the spirits and not too much thought has been given to ways of using human-elemental spirit relations in gameplay in which other character classes can actually participate. So interacting with the kami gets deemphasized since it's basically set up as a minigame only one or two people in the party can play, and in the end all the kami are really good for--mechanically, that is--is powering spells (well, and occasionally providing really vague clues in mystery plots). I think that's really a shame.

I actually also noticed, in going back to look at the dawn of the empire chapter in IH, that both there and in other spots there's some talk about how the teachings of Shinsei and their integration with Fortunism were what allowed shugenja to develop the understanding of and rapport with the spirits necessary to cast pure elemental spells (i.e. without spilling blood). I'd forgotten all about that because, again, it's not very relevant to how shugenja actually play in practice, even though it's kind of cool and really deserves more focus.

If you're, say, a river fisherman (or a rural samurai whose domain is full of river fishermen), you venerate Ebisu in a general sort of way without expecting his particular attention, you make more specific and frequent offerings to the Minor Fortunes of rivers and fishermen, and you think about and are courteous to the water kami in your stretch of the river every hour of your working day, because from hour to hour it's largely thanks to them if you have a really good haul (or a really bad one).

Or if a sudden freak wave send your ship to the bottom with you still in it.

Yeah. Elemental kami are at the heart of everything in Rokugani daily life. Earth kami will make the mine shaft you work in collapse on you (or not). Fire kami will determine whether you can get your fire hot enough to melt metal. Air kami will control the breeze - and the tornadoes Making your land more fertile and give off better crop is the province of the Earth kami. Water kami will determine if you get too much, too little or just enough rain for your crop to grow without being burnt or drowned. Water kami will make the river swell and carry the bridge away (or not). Air kami will make a hot day bearable (or not) with a cool breeze. Etc, etc, etc. The kami are the fundamental basis of daily life in Rokugan.

Or if a sudden freak wave send your ship to the bottom with you still in it.

Very true. I was mostly trying to supply a more positive-to-neutral example of their importance, because Bremathon had written "Angry kami can make things go badly but..." and I wanted to point out that they ought to matter even when they're not currently inconveniently pissed off at you.

If you're, say, a river fisherman (or a rural samurai whose domain is full of river fishermen), you venerate Ebisu in a general sort of way without expecting his particular attention, you make more specific and frequent offerings to the Minor Fortunes of rivers and fishermen, and you think about and are courteous to the water kami in your stretch of the river every hour of your working day, because from hour to hour it's largely thanks to them if you have a really good haul (or a really bad one).

Or if a sudden freak wave send your ship to the bottom with you still in it.

Yeah. Elemental kami are at the heart of everything in Rokugani daily life. Earth kami will make the mine shaft you work in collapse on you (or not). Fire kami will determine whether you can get your fire hot enough to melt metal. Air kami will control the breeze - and the tornadoes Making your land more fertile and give off better crop is the province of the Earth kami. Water kami will determine if you get too much, too little or just enough rain for your crop to grow without being burnt or drowned. Water kami will make the river swell and carry the bridge away (or not). Air kami will make a hot day bearable (or not) with a cool breeze. Etc, etc, etc. The kami are the fundamental basis of daily life in Rokugan.

The kami angle with the last few posts are interesting but I couldn't find all of that in the core rulebook (4th edition). The focus of life seems to be the idea of rituals to samurai.

The kami angle with the last few posts are interesting but I couldn't find all of that in the core rulebook (4th edition). The focus of life seems to be the idea of rituals to samurai.

(If you need a cite for that, the most obvious one is the third paragraph under the heading of the "Religion and Philosophy" section in the 4E corebook's Book of Air. Before any mention of ancestor worship, actually!)

I don't have time to transcribe it right now (leaving work), but maybe later. Though if you have the corebook you can look for yourself.

The kami angle with the last few posts are interesting but I couldn't find all of that in the core rulebook (4th edition). The focus of life seems to be the idea of rituals to samurai.

(If you need a cite for that, the most obvious one is the third paragraph under the heading of the "Religion and Philosophy" section in the 4E corebook's Book of Air. Before any mention of ancestor worship, actually!)

I don't have time to transcribe it right now (leaving work), but maybe later. Though if you have the corebook you can look for yourself.

Well, that's the thing: I've been going through the core book about the kami and there's not really that much. Fortunism is given about two sentences in the religion portion and everything else you mentioned is either not there, such as the case of kami being the center of everyday life, or downplayed like the fact that shugenja are usually religious but some are more so than others.

The big question is why?

Here is the problem, you are assuming a much higher level of senciance and concern on the part of the Elemental Kami than has ever been portrayed in the game. The local kami are kept in line by local fortunes and the pesentry and the samurai worship the local fortunes.

Now it may be true that you don't have reference to this material and that in fourth edition has not covered it but this does not invalidate material covered in previous editions because you don't own them.

Here is the problem, you are assuming a much higher level of senciance and concern on the part of the Elemental Kami than has ever been portrayed in the game. The local kami are kept in line by local fortunes and the pesentry and the samurai worship the local fortunes.

Now it may be true that you don't have reference to this material and that in fourth edition has not covered it but this does not invalidate material covered in previous editions because you don't own them.

I have to disagree here. When we are discussing the current edition of the game, that's really the only thing relevant.

Previous editions are great for showing comparisons, perhaps trying to infer something left vague. It would be like..... Telling someone that in 4th edition your mantis duelist is worthless because in 3rd edition if you weren't kakita trained it was an auto loose option against someone who was. Does that make sense? If we assume that the mechanics inform the setting (or vice versa), a school dedicated to dueling was required to participate in that part of the game because the techniques were so crazy powerful. There fore "The Crane use dueling to dominate all their enemies" made perfect sense to present as the setting.

This edition, Bushi techniques give more of an advantage or unique edge than make you really dominate an aspect of the game. So now we have Kakita going from "if you duel them you die" to instead "are some of the most dangerous duelists." The difference is that now, if you build yourself as a duelist, the kakita will have an advantage, but not an insurmountable one. A clear setting change between editions.

TL;DR: while knowledge of previous editions is respectable, I don't feel it bears a lot of relevance in these sorts of discussions outside of comparison reasons.

Here is the problem, you are assuming a much higher level of senciance and concern on the part of the Elemental Kami than has ever been portrayed in the game. The local kami are kept in line by local fortunes and the pesentry and the samurai worship the local fortunes.

Now it may be true that you don't have reference to this material and that in fourth edition has not covered it but this does not invalidate material covered in previous editions because you don't own them.

Mortthepirate (above) is essentially right, in my view.

But I am also getting a little tired of being told "[X] isn't in the book" or "[X] may be in 4E, but it wasn't in previous editions" when that just isn't accurate. I know it's hard to completely prove a negative (not actually impossible, with a limited body of sources, but still hard), but if you haven't looked at the older books for a few years, it doesn't hurt to check before making definitive statements about what they do or don't cover.

Here's some--nowhere near an exhaustive set!--of what 4E says about the elemental kami (emphases mine):

4E core book , ch. 1 "Book of Air: The Emerald Empire," section "Religion and Philosopy," third paragraph:

Fortunism is the worship of the Fortunes, the spirits and gods who dwell in Tengoku, the Celestial Heavens, as well as the lesser spirits dwelling in the mortal realm . The Fortunes are organized into a celestial hierarchy, ranging from the Sun and Moon, supreme rulers of the Heavens, down through the Seven Great Fortunes and Elemental Dragons to the hundreds of Lesser Fortunes. The founding Kami of the Great Clans also reside in Tengoku and are worshipped with the same reverence. Below the Fortunes are lesser spiritual beings, such as Ryu (elemental dragon spirits) and Fushicho (phoenix spirits) who sometimes visit the mortal world or dwell there for extended periods of time. Below them in turn are the simple elemental spirits who inhabit all objects in the mortal world. The Rokugani revere all of these beings, from the highest to the lowest, worshipping and appeasing them as appropriate. Thus, when a peasant's lands are afflicted with plague, he will pray to Ekibyogami, the Fortune of Pestilence, for mercy. When a peasant cuts down a tree, he will give thanks to the spirits within that tree, apologizing for the need to cut it down and thanking the spirits for supplying wood and warmth to his family.

Emerald Empire (the 4E one) expands on this in Ch. 8, "Religion," particularly (but not exclusively!) in the section on "Fortunism"--I don't want to post a whole lot since 4E is still in print, but here's the key graf:

Below the Greater and Lesser Fortunes are the simple elemental kami who are part of everything that surrounds mortals. These kami inhabit every object, every rock, plant, tool, wall, stream, weapon, or mountain in Rokugan. Long before Shinsei showed how these kami were part of the larger Celestial Order, the early Rokugani were already quite aware that the kami were everywhere around them, and they paid homage to them in every part of their lives—a practice that continues unchanged to the present day. When a heimin cuts down a tree to build a house, he offers a prayer to thank the spirit of the tree for providing a roof to his family. He may even thank the spirit of the axe he used to cut the tree down or the kami of the hammer he used to raise the house. When a blacksmith melts iron to forge a sword, he offers his thanks to the spirit of the ore, which will allow him to transform a simple lump of iron into a work of art. The same blacksmith also prays to the spirit of the fire that is essential to complete his work.

Okay, that seems straightforward enough, but was all this new in 4E? Not at all (again, not an exhaustive set):

Player's Guide (2E), Chapter 1, section "Religion":

One of the oldest religions of Rokugan, the ancient religion of the Isawa is still practiced without interruption in the lost city of Gisei Toshi. To the Isawa, the 'Way of the Gods,' Kami-no-michi, is the first religion of Rokugan, and the Seven Fortunes still hold their prestigious place in the heavens throughout the Empire. The Rokugani believe the world is filled with supernatural beings with the power to affect their lives. These are the Thousand Fortunes: Lady Sun and Lord Moon, Ebisu, Bishamon, Inari and a myriad of nature spirits. Every rock, river, and grove has its own deity. The kami protect villages, bring rain, protect fishermen on their journeys and much more. When angry, they cause calamity and hardship, bad luck, torrential storms and illness. Properly appeased, they bring good fortune, health, and calm weather.

D20 Oriental Adventures , Chapter 5 (the first chapter that actually talks much about the Rokugan setting), second section "Religion":

Religion in Oriental Adventures springs from a very different world view [from the standard D&D polytheism], one that is fundamentally animistic. Animism is the belief that spirits inhabit every part of the natural world. In the world of Oriental Adventures, everything has a spirit-from the grandest mountain to the lowliest rock, from the great ocean to a babbling brook, from the sun and moon to a samurai's ancestral sword. All these objects, and the spirits that inhabit them, are alive and sentient, though some are more aware, alert, and intelligent than others. Some are also more powerful than others-some might even be called deities. But all are worthy of respect and even veneration. The multitudinous spirits of the world are not served by clerics, as are the deities described in the Player's Handbook, but shamans and shugenjas can sometimes command or implore them to perform specific tasks on their behalf.

3E core book, Ch. 4 "Book of Air"

There's really a lot here about the nature of the elemental kami and their relationship with humans, more than I wany to text-bomb in one post (or spend time typing up). I'm reminded again that in spite of its timeline bloat and certain mechanical weaknesses, 3E did a very nice job of presenting the Rokugan setting and its feel. No wonder it got so many people into the RPG.

The opening fiction for this chapter (too long to transcribe) contains a nice little illustration of shugenja and non-shugenja interacting with the elemental kami.

First section "The Way of the Kami"

Tales of powerful shugenja commanding the forces of the elements in spectacular ways--summoning raging storms on a clear day, incinerating enemies by the dozen, commanding the earth to rise up and protect a village from pillaging bandits, or bringing floodwaters to lands far removed from the coast pepper Rokugani history. These stories hardly reveal the true nature of a shugenja's power, namely that he has none at all except the ability to speak with the elemental spirits around him. In Rokugan, the Five Elements coexist to create reality, and those who can communicate with the kami have the ability to speak to the very forces that govern the universe. [... the rest of this page is all about the elemental kami from the perspective of shugenja: they inhabit everything; they "are sentient entities with animal realm awareness" ; some elemental kami are more powerful, intelligent, and self-willed than others; ways of communicating and imploring them including a fluff description of what it means to learn "innate" spells and have a Friendly Kami; some shugenja "have made the mistake of perceiving the kami as little more than tools that dance to their whim" but sooner or later these "absurd notions" come back to bite them.]

Second section, "Cosmology, Spirit Realms, and the Afterlife," subheading "The Lesser Fortunes"

While the Seven Fortunes are considered powerful celestial beings very much removed from the world, the Lesser Fortunes known as mikokami fall close to a more common realm. Each object or thing in Rokugan, be it a rock stream, sword, tree, or hill, has a spirit within it deserving respect. A farmer who cuts down a tree for firewood gives a prayer of thanks to the spirit of the tree that will provide his family with warmth and protection from the winter cold.

The mikokami play a considerable role in the daily lives of the citizens of Rokugan. They are considered much more accessible than the Seven Fortunes, and it is not uncommon for the heimin to make offerings to them in hopes of receiving favor. [...]

There is something of a rank and file [distinction, presumably-LS] between the more powerful mikokami that are truly considered Lesser Fortunes and the nature spirits that inhabit everyday objects. In essence, the Lesser Fortunes wield more power, influential mikokami that have gained influence over a particular domain. [example of the kami of one rice field vs. the Lesser Fortune Inari who governs all rice-growing--sorry, my typin' fingers are getting tired!]

3E core book, Ch. 1 "Book of Earth," in the section "Home and Hearth, Customs and Laws," subsection "Magic in Society," also has a good bit more about the interconnectedness of magic, ordinary life, and the spirits, e.g.:

Magic, in Rokugan, is not simply a shugenja bending the elements to his will, magic underlies all activities: the bird taking flight, and the Sun rising each morning. [...] While the average Rokugani understands that magic surrounds them every day, it is still a holy practice, something to be looked upon with wonder.

Interestingly, that section goes on to explicitly describe "record and keep the names of the Fortunes, "act as intermediaries between the world of mortals and spirits," and "commune with the spirits of the dead" as being important parts of the "role of the shugenja" (even though most of those things were no better supported in 3E than they are in 4E).

I don't have the original 1E L5R book in my handy folder of out-of-print RPG pdfs, but given everything above plus the fact that 1E was the most undilutedly (note that I'm not saying 'accurately,' for whatever value of that difficult word) Japan-esque version of the setting, I'd be pretty surprised if you couldn't find similar material in there as well.

By the way, all of that took me about ten minutes to look up, without resort to indexes--it's all obviously locate-able via the Tables of Contents. I didn't even crack any non-core books except the 4E Emerald Empire. Typing it all, instead of just snarkily furnishing a list of page numbers, was the time-consuming bit.

No wonder I feel so lost in many of these discussions. All I own is 1ed, my whole perspective comes from 1ed, and other various games I have played over the years. That being said, I almost feel as if some of the fluff from each previous edition is relevant to the latter editions. A history that helps support the ongoing story. I can also tell you that every game I have ever played has borrowed heavily from folklore, and mythology. However I have read that out sources are taboo in these discussions. Thus making this whole post irrelevant, and moot. I suppose that also makes my thirty some odd years of gaming irrelevant and moot as well. I am off to the retired gamer's corner then. Thank you for your time.

Shinjo Yosama

No wonder I feel so lost in many of these discussions. All I own is 1ed, my whole perspective comes from 1ed, and other various games I have played over the years. That being said, I almost feel as if some of the fluff from each previous edition is relevant to the latter editions. A history that helps support the ongoing story. I can also tell you that every game I have ever played has borrowed heavily from folklore, and mythology. However I have read that out sources are taboo in these discussions. Thus making this whole post irrelevant, and moot. I suppose that also makes my thirty some odd years of gaming irrelevant and moot as well. I am off to the retired gamer's corner then. Thank you for your time.

Shinjo Yosama

That's a little melodramatic, don't you think? Especially since the fluff from each previous edition often gets recycled in later editions (to the point where people complain about it if they own earlier editions). There's a balance point between "each edition has to stand on its own" and "earlier editions are relevant to the coherence of the game as a whole;" it isn't an either/or situation.