I've played L5R from 1st edition. Dabbled in the CCG, and i can tell you.

The Taint and the Shadowlands are not needed in most campaigns, except as an existential threat thats somewhere south, and nobody talks about it. Part of it is... as tragic L5R is, its usually considered poor storytelling to have the players forced to retire their characters because they unknowingly ate tainted food, or a maho-tsukai succeeded on a roll to infect them with the taint.

Unless its a game focused on that horror; which can be amazing.

locust, it does have a relevance since... if one is arguing for a focus on samurai drama, the conflicts of bushido and find the shadowlands, the taint, and jigoku distracting, then one could expand that to removal of shugenja as well... since they really don't have anything to do with traditional samurai drama.

You also don't necessarily need shugenja to appease angry spirits like the prior examples.

locust, it does have a relevance since... if one is arguing for a focus on samurai drama, the conflicts of bushido and find the shadowlands, the taint, and jigoku distracting, then one could expand that to removal of shugenja as well... since they really don't have anything to do with traditional samurai drama.

You also don't necessarily need shugenja to appease angry spirits like the prior examples.

That's rather a stretch. You could indeed argue for cutting both of those things on the grounds that you won't find them in a Kurosawa movie (though w/r/t to shugenja, that's not actually what this thread was about--the original question was "there seem to be a lot of opinions about what specifically shugenja should be designed to do, what do you guys think?" not "should shugenja exist?"). The same could be said of an Emperor with actual centralized power, Emerald Magistrates and Imperial Legions, any Spirit Realms, gaijin in the L5R mode (yobanjin, Thrane, Ivory Kingdoms, etc), clans named after animals, a dynasty that was chosen by tournament of the gods, etc. etc. However, i f we're indeed going to have to start justifying every element of the setting piecemeal, all these things have their own distinct rationales for existence. Justifying the Shadowlands does not justify shugenja. Arguing on thematic grounds against the Shadowlands does not score any specific points against the existence of shugenja. Which is why I pointed out that the Taint thread is right over here... https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/188787-shadowlands-taint/

I'm at a loss as to how any of that relates to the issue of the supernatural in this "oh-so-unwestern" setting being twisted up with unspoken near-eastern (ex Abrahamic or Zoroastrian) assumptions about good-evil cosmic duality in such a way that the supernatural in Rokugan is too often presented in a very un-"Eastern" binary split between good and evil / holy and unholy.

Go read the section I've pointed out and you'll understand that the "binary split" doesn't exist, it's your misconception. Besides, may I ask you to bring more arguments instead of simply whining? And by arguments, I mean proofs and places in the books about what you're talking about? Because most of what you're saying doesn't seem to be fixed by any means with a new edition, it's more about how to handle the setting. I've said it in another message, there's a tons of information about wars between Clans, yet it's not something about a split between "Good and Evil". Just in what I was pointing, mainly the Challenge, Focus, Strike section, there's a lot of stuffs that has nothing to do with binary split between good and evil and there's stuffs about supernatural threat.

Speaking of this "Western/Eastern" thingy. Photography was seen as a threat because there was rumors about stealing the soul of the targets. From today's point of view, this has nothing to do with Good VS Evil or Holy VS Unholy. However at that time, it wasn't well received, it was considered a threat. It's all about the point of view. In a L5R campaign, the point of view is given by the Storyteller/GM and the players. This, no game system/mechanics/setting will do anything about them.

"Whining"?

/plonk

Never mind that saying "supernatural matters are too often treated as a binary good vs evil" is not the same thing as claiming

* that the entire game suffers from that problem

* that there's nothing in the game but supernatural matters

* that all supernatural matters are always treated as binary

Wait, when did this turn into yet another thread about the Taint? There was a thread about the Taint and the Shadowlands. It's still there, perfectly good (though I stopped reading it because it bored me, Taint not being one of the things that has ever struck me personally as needing revision). Can you guys maybe take this over there?

Though I will say, there is an important difference between "internally inconsistent because the fluff says one thing, the living fictions another, and the mechanics a third thing" and "feels thematically inconsistent to me because Asian-derived fantasy tropes are mixed up with original elements and tropes from other mythoses." The first one of those bothers me when I encounter it. The second doesn't and in fact I personally find the distinction somewhat irrelevant for the purpose, so I do feel a bit annoyed at having support of the former complaint implicitly extrapolated to support for the latter one. Hence why this tangent really needs to go off back to its own thread!

It drifted to the Taint discussion because discussion of the role of Shugenja in dealing with "the supernatural" became a discussion of what that means -- and the need, IMO, to clean up the worldbuilding when it comes to the "supernatural" part of the setting. At some point the fact that too often ( not always , since there's at least one person here who can't tell the difference between saying that something happens too often and saying it happens to the exclusion of all other possibilities) there's a creeping dualism where all supernatural matters are seen as "holy" or "unholy" in the game texts, which lead somehow into another digression of "the Taint isn't bad unless it's radioactive" nonsense.

Wait, when did this turn into yet another thread about the Taint? There was a thread about the Taint and the Shadowlands. It's still there, perfectly good (though I stopped reading it because it bored me, Taint not being one of the things that has ever struck me personally as needing revision). Can you guys maybe take this over there?

Though I will say, there is an important difference between "internally inconsistent because the fluff says one thing, the living fictions another, and the mechanics a third thing" and "feels thematically inconsistent to me because Asian-derived fantasy tropes are mixed up with original elements and tropes from other mythoses." The first one of those bothers me when I encounter it. The second doesn't and in fact I personally find the distinction somewhat irrelevant for the purpose, so I do feel a bit annoyed at having support of the former complaint implicitly extrapolated to support for the latter one. Hence why this tangent really needs to go off back to its own thread!

The Taint keeps showing up in discussions about all sorts of different subjects because that is how many things the Taint breaks. The effect the Taint has on how the setting is constructed is a huge component of why shugenja feel as disconnected from the world as they do.

And it isn't merely that "this is thematically inconsistent with Asian fantasy tropes" -- it's thematically inconsistent within itself, it can't do what it is trying to do, and people try to make things work or try to justify their decisions by appealing to Asian fantasy tropes without realizing that the changes they have made have caused those Asian fantasy tropes to stop being functional.

The core of it is: "How supernatural should L5R be? And how does it impact for better or worse the theme I like about L5R?"

I think everyone agrees: Shugenja are tied to the role of supernatural in L5R.

The other aspect is that both Courtier and Bushi in a sense master a set of skills anyone else can buy and be just ok at. In 4th Edition, its a few techniques and 4-5 spells total that can deal with some of these threats, or in other cases incredibly rare items.

So for this proposal, lets forget any of my other proposals.

1. Establish a clear demarcation as to how anyone can interact with the supernatural and codify it with skills.

-> Ancestors, any Samurai should be able to pray to their ancestor. It should be a Awareness/Prayer Roll.

Some shugenja schools such as the Kitsu get bonuses to their prayers, and can even summon them to fight for them.

-> Fortunes, anyone visiting a shrine should be able to make an offering and pray to that fortune. It should be a Awareness/Prayer Roll.

Some shugenja such as the Yoritomo can get bonuses to their prayers, and even invoke Osano-Wo's wrath/blessing.

-> Anyone with the right Lore should be able to determine if the local spirits might be out of harmony, based on Investigation and Lore rolls.

Shugenja can just ask the local spirits.

-> Anyone with materials and lore should know how to banish a ghost, or other spirit that does not belong in Nigen-do.

Some Shugenja such as the Kuni can use the power of Jade and Crystal to fight it, or enable others to do so.

Some Shugenja will have spells (see below) that can bind spirits.

-> Anyone with jade can ward off the taint, anyone can go to a shrine to purify themselves.

Shugenja can Banish the local kami, and some such as the Kuni can even clear the taint from an area.

2. Now to balance shugenja with bushi and courtiers.

-> Make spells items, remove mastery levels, just set costs and TN's.

-> Each school gives a set amount of spells to start, AND most of them are fixed, some will be a choice between a few spells. (Like any Craft Spell)

-> Shugenja schools would have 5 techniques, and they would gain new spells unless their lord gave them a spell.

-> Importune, Summon, Commune, Banish, Counterspell would be actions not spells. This encourages shugenja to talk to the kami more often and gain clues for the story.

-> Spells would be Ring/Spellcraft.

3. Rework some spells

-> I think buff spells should be reworked to provide a buff for the entire group. This would encourage shugenja as a support role for bushi in combat.

-> Counter spelling should be easy to handle mechanically, this would encourage shugenja to actively protect their comrades against rival shugenja.

-> Integrate spells with Mass Combat, to reflect that some Shugenja such as the Isawa would have access to spells that can be unleashed against the legions.

-> Social spells should either be reworked, or last longer, or just done away with. If the Shoshi are getting techniques, some of them could be the information gathering they do in the courts.

4. Lastly, put enough detail in to handle the Shugenja asking the Volcano Kami for a favor.

-> It should be perfectly reasonable for an Isawa to sing an angry volcano to sleep.

1. Establish a clear demarcation as to how anyone can interact with the supernatural and codify it with skills.

-> Ancestors, any Samurai should be able to pray to their ancestor. It should be a Awareness/Prayer Roll.

Some shugenja schools such as the Kitsu get bonuses to their prayers, and can even summon them to fight for them.

-> Fortunes, anyone visiting a shrine should be able to make an offering and pray to that fortune. It should be a Awareness/Prayer Roll.

Some shugenja such as the Yoritomo can get bonuses to their prayers, and even invoke Osano-Wo's wrath/blessing.

I would add one thing to this: making your roll sans talking to the kami should be a meaningful thing . Right now, any samurai can pray to their ancestor or a Fortune, sure. But it's 100% window dressing, unless you've paid the XP for a capital-A Ancestor who gives you a mechanical benefit so long as you honor them.

I believe it was Mirumoto Saito who had a homebrew system on the old boards that I've borrowed for my Togashi Dynasty campaign, where you can try to earn favor from celestial entities. You don't need to be a shugenja; you just do something to please them and then roll Lore: Theology / Void at a TN that gets lower the bigger your pleasing action was. Success earns you Favor points that spend like XP for short-term benefits, e.g. a temporary rank of a skill or briefly suppressing a disadvantage, but you can also earn Wrath from opposing entities. It works beautifully for making religious matters a more relevant thing in game, without restricting them wholly to the purview of shugenja.

Fourth, to go back to a past comment that no one responded to -- what's this about the Taint coming from Fu Leng? The 4th Ed RPG material would seem to indicate that the Taint comes from Jigoku, and that Jigoku existed long before Fu Leng plunged through the world into its depths.

Seriously?

Fu-leng was the catalyst that Jigoku needed to be able to try and conquer the mortal realm.

The thing about people wanting taint to be about "free powerz" , I have seen this COUNTLESS times on this forum and others, I am yet to see yourself for example, exhibit a compelling reason at all why taint should be changed, OR an example of how it breaks/broke the game. The problem is, the ONLY reason it was done, was a workaround to allow the Spider to be a major clan, not for anything else, simply for that. As long as their is a "choice" at any point about receiving the taint, it entirely changes the nature of it. For a samurai in Rokugan to WILLINGLY choose to take on the taint, they have to be a "bad guy" already. This makes it very very hollow and and turns tainted characters into one dimensional stereotypical villians. You don't get the fall, you lose the tragedy and end up with guys, who if they die with the taint, deserve it because they were just another bad guy.

The WHOLE lore of jigoku is that it is trying to spread it's own influence throughout the mortal realm. It completely fudges the lore of Jigoku to then decide, "oh you know what? I want my spider dude to have night vision". The fact that you get to pick is just completely out of whack with how the lore goes. Why would Jigoku, suddenly decide it isn't fair to be involuntary about it, when one of it's main goals is to spread it's influence? It really doesn't make any sense at all that Humans of Rokugan would have any control over the taint.

The funniest part is, we have people here proclaiming that they want to see more from "Spirit realms" and to remove the taint from the game, and they are completely oblivious to the fact that Jigoku IS a spirit realm.

Jigoku is ONE spirit realm that seems to hog up the overwhelming majority of any face-time any spirit realm get in canon material (and, by extension, in most campaigns. Yeah, GMs don't HAVE to do it that way, but guess what happens when by and large that's what they hear is happening in the Canon, and when the background material is setup to support that Jigoku vs the World canon)

That's the problem. Not your nonsensical attempt to parody it.

Jigoku's role must be cut back down on so the other spirit realms have more room to shine.

Wait, when did this turn into yet another thread about the Taint? There was a thread about the Taint and the Shadowlands. It's still there, perfectly good (though I stopped reading it because it bored me, Taint not being one of the things that has ever struck me personally as needing revision). Can you guys maybe take this over there?

Though I will say, there is an important difference between "internally inconsistent because the fluff says one thing, the living fictions another, and the mechanics a third thing" and "feels thematically inconsistent to me because Asian-derived fantasy tropes are mixed up with original elements and tropes from other mythoses." The first one of those bothers me when I encounter it. The second doesn't and in fact I personally find the distinction somewhat irrelevant for the purpose, so I do feel a bit annoyed at having support of the former complaint implicitly extrapolated to support for the latter one. Hence why this tangent really needs to go off back to its own thread!

The Taint keeps showing up in discussions about all sorts of different subjects because that is how many things the Taint breaks. The effect the Taint has on how the setting is constructed is a huge component of why shugenja feel as disconnected from the world as they do.

Give me 3 unequivocal things that the taint breaks. not suppositions, but actual mechanical or thematic contradictions.

The taint has absolutely no bearing on the role of shugenja, nor are shugenja even remotely disconnected from the world of Rokugan, they are absolutely integral to every clan and VITAL for the day to day running of each clan.

The Taint keeps showing up in discussions about all sorts of different subjects because that is how many things the Taint breaks. The effect the Taint has on how the setting is constructed is a huge component of why shugenja feel as disconnected from the world as they do.

And it isn't merely that "this is thematically inconsistent with Asian fantasy tropes" -- it's thematically inconsistent within itself, it can't do what it is trying to do, and people try to make things work or try to justify their decisions by appealing to Asian fantasy tropes without realizing that the changes they have made have caused those Asian fantasy tropes to stop being functional.

The CCG fiction aside. I wouldn't say it breaks anything. Its an aspect of horror, a cost so to speak. It adds a hard-mode to the game that makes the players just NOT want to face an Oni, or a Maho-Tsukai, as there is a risk that they will lose their characters in a more tragic fashion.

I would say the flaw in some sense is that 4th edition assumes a GM will just use character creation rules for NPC samurai, and so when you see the antagonist section full of tainted creatures... it does cause a bias.

So since 1st edition, the setting at least as I interpreted it as default was:

A world that is a battle for survival against the corrupting influence of Jigoku, where there are soldiers dying every day in a never ending war for their very souls, but...

The players and the rest of the Empire are sipping tea and laughing at the blundering Crab who could not get the grain they need, so more of his comrades will starve this winter, and it will be all that much harder to hold the wall.

Oh and off in some library a foolish Isawa wonders, what harm is a little taint if he can figure out how this spell works.

I've never seen the Taint as a core Pillar per-se, I've seen it as core to the Tragedy of the Crab, and the Tragedy of the Pheonix. But no, its not some cracked pillar threatening to pull the entire setting down.

The real flaw with the setting is the plot is based on the CCG, which has vastly different needs. Constant war, and big bads threatening to overwhelm the empire... good for card games, good for comic books, not good for an RPG setting.

Removing the taint and shadowlands diminishes the Crab, they are defined by their war, and the wall. It also reduces the theme of dangerous knowledge that the Pheonix have (though that could be replaced with gaijin pepper in some ways... some fool Isawa blows himself up and sets fire to the Library because he was curious about gaijin pepper... Scorpion says to himself "works every time" )

Granted, as one that suggested multiple core books, the crab would have been pretty much only present in the Shadowlands book.

But if you notice... A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE AGAINST MULTIPLE CORE BOOKS.

I think a lot more folks would be against removing an entire great clan, and a huge part of what makes L5R unique from the entire game.

1. Establish a clear demarcation as to how anyone can interact with the supernatural and codify it with skills.

-> Ancestors, any Samurai should be able to pray to their ancestor. It should be a Awareness/Prayer Roll.

Some shugenja schools such as the Kitsu get bonuses to their prayers, and can even summon them to fight for them.

-> Fortunes, anyone visiting a shrine should be able to make an offering and pray to that fortune. It should be a Awareness/Prayer Roll.

Some shugenja such as the Yoritomo can get bonuses to their prayers, and even invoke Osano-Wo's wrath/blessing.

I would add one thing to this: making your roll sans talking to the kami should be a meaningful thing . Right now, any samurai can pray to their ancestor or a Fortune, sure. But it's 100% window dressing, unless you've paid the XP for a capital-A Ancestor who gives you a mechanical benefit so long as you honor them.

I believe it was Mirumoto Saito who had a homebrew system on the old boards that I've borrowed for my Togashi Dynasty campaign, where you can try to earn favor from celestial entities. You don't need to be a shugenja; you just do something to please them and then roll Lore: Theology / Void at a TN that gets lower the bigger your pleasing action was. Success earns you Favor points that spend like XP for short-term benefits, e.g. a temporary rank of a skill or briefly suppressing a disadvantage, but you can also earn Wrath from opposing entities. It works beautifully for making religious matters a more relevant thing in game, without restricting them wholly to the purview of shugenja.

I was thinking that by default it would be a free raise to an action in theme with that Ancestor or Fortune. Maybe if they roll well, or earned favor multiple free raises.

Or a +1k0 to a trait roll in keeping with the fortune's purview.

A more depth version would have each character choose an ancestor. And that Ancestor would have a fixed benefit they get based on their Prayer roll.

(Ancestors would no longer cost XP)

And Fortunes would have specific blessings you can pray for that would work similar to spells.

But yes my idea would be a mechanical advantage for everyone using the Prayer skill, and replacing the Advantages that currently represent them.

Jigoku is ONE spirit realm that seems to hog up the overwhelming majority of any face-time any spirit realm get in canon material (and, by extension, in most campaigns. Yeah, GMs don't HAVE to do it that way, but guess what happens when by and large that's what they hear is happening in the Canon, and when the background material is setup to support that Jigoku vs the World canon)

That's the problem. Not your nonsensical attempt to parody it.

Jigoku's role must be cut back down on so the other spirit realms have more room to shine.

The strawmen are getting more common, aren't they? Must be the autumn season setting in.

Jigoku is ONE spirit realm that seems to hog up the overwhelming majority of any face-time any spirit realm get in canon material (and, by extension, in most campaigns. Yeah, GMs don't HAVE to do it that way, but guess what happens when by and large that's what they hear is happening in the Canon, and when the background material is setup to support that Jigoku vs the World canon)

That's the problem. Not your nonsensical attempt to parody it.

Jigoku's role must be cut back down on so the other spirit realms have more room to shine.

Talking about hyperbole. How is what I am saying nonsensical, it is how/what Jigoku is, not a parody, I get the feeling you are just stringing words together in the hope of sounding "scathing".

Here is the overall problem I have with the idea or removing/inhibiting shadowlands.

A few people don't like Shadowlands in the story, which is fine, it's opinion.

because you don't like it yourself, you want it removed or inhibited, even though there are many others who do enjoy it in the setting.

Just because it exists in the setting, doesn't mean your Campaign is FORCED to be shadowlands, it is there if people want it.

All the information you want about other realms is there if YOU want it. This is no way inhibited by shadowlands, you could quite literally read for days about all the other spirit realms.

Other people wanting shadowlands in their game does not inhibit your view of what is fun.

Wanting to remove the shadowlands DOES inhibit others view of what is fun.

It comes down to this, and why this thread is degenerating into utter calamity at the moment. Live and let live. If you like shadowlands cool, If you don't then that's cool to. Each to his own, you go have your fun with other spirit realms, which there is a huge amount of lore on already, enough to do a full campaign certainly, and let others have their fun getting tainted while defending the wall against massive Oni.

What you are asking for infringes on everyone elses fun, but what they want, does not infringe on your fun, you want to remove something from them because you don't like it. You already have all the tools at your disposal to run a game how you want. If you GM can't run a game without shadowlands in it, because he is not willing to read anything other than a couple of books, then nobody can really help you with that. Don't go changing a whole setting because your GM is incapable of exploring other thoroughly fleshed themes,worlds,realms or spirits unless it is rammed down his throat by canon.

It is pretty rude to want to impose your view of the game on others, and when someone disagrees, claim that they are being "Nonsensical". Especially when nothing at all is stopping your from ignoring the shadowlands completely and running with your own story.

Who here in this discussion has suggested removing the Shadowlands, or getting rid of the Taint, or eliminating Jigoku?

EDIT: Ah, yes.

But I think the debate is more centered on the notion of the Abrahamic Hell ; this idea of a realm of evil that is the source of all Bad Spiritual Stuff (which, in the game, is what Jigoku is painted as). And that's something L5R could do without, in my opinion. Jigoku needs to go (or, rather, to be reduced a great deal in importance).

@Killjoy

"But I think the debate is more centered on the notion of the Abrahamic Hell ; this idea of a realm of evil that is the source of all Bad Spiritual Stuff (which, in the game, is what Jigoku is painted as). And that's something L5R could do without, in my opinion. Jigoku needs to go (or, rather, to be reduced a great deal in importance) . "

Who here in this discussion has suggested removing the Shadowlands, or getting rid of the Taint, or eliminating Jigoku?

Me, I have.

I don't want to remove all of the productive things they do. I want something that is better suited to the setting to do them.

I would be fine with no Spirit Realms beyond Tengoku, which is the unassailable and unknowable Pure Land, and just putting all the weird spiritual and magical stuff in the "real world", where it should be.

Impurity, in Shinto, is just a thing that happens -- you get rid of it through ritual purification, but acquiring it is just a totally inescapable aspect of existing in the world. It's original sin, without any sense of wrongdoing. If you can't see at least a glimmer of how to adapt that into a version of the Taint that doesn't involve the existence of Jigoku, you're not trying very hard.

Like, you know that whole thing about Ningen-do being a "jealous realm" that taints anyone who ever touches it, and its taint is mortality? Don't make a new thing in addition to that. Build from that. The Kami who fell from the Pure Land discovered that the taint and impurity of the world would cause them to die. Most of them took pains to avoid getting more of this impurity. Fu Leng dove into it headfirst, and found it did way, way weirder stuff if you let it.

"But I think the debate is more centered on the notion of the Abrahamic Hell ; this idea of a realm of evil that is the source of all Bad Spiritual Stuff (which, in the game, is what Jigoku is painted as). And that's something L5R could do without, in my opinion. Jigoku needs to go (or, rather, to be reduced a great deal in importance) . "

Let me introduce you to logic 101.

| Jigoku needs to go |

OR

| Rather to be reduce a great deal in importance |

Honestly though. The thread has derailed.

Probably best if it gets back on topic to be about Shugenja!

I said that about Jigoku.

Not the Shadowlands. Not the Taint. I love the Shadowlands, and the taint has a place in the story (though radioactive taint got grossly exaggerated at times). They're great, and I want them kept.

I just don't want them to be *Jigoku* on earth, and *Jigoku's taint*. I want them to be what happens when Jigoku (if we can find a good definition for it that isn't "Evil") AND Toshigoku AND Gaki-Do on Earth, and possibly other spirit realms as well. I also want them to be - and this is the real important part - the REAL evil place. Evil is not born from the spirit realms, but from the spirit realm's influence on the world. Even Jigoku, Toshigoku and Gaki-Do taken individually should be much less twisted, much less hateful of all things that live, than the Shadowlands - because the Shadowlands is what happens when you combine the worse of all those other realms.

As is, Toshigoku and Gaki-Do's roles as the realms of senseless violence and unnatural hungers get completely overshadowed by Jigoku, because Jigoku *also* does senseless violence and unnatural hunger as part of it being "evil", and since Jigoku does more beside these two, it's the prefered default setting.¸Otheres get harmed too, but to a lesser degree - these two are the big victims of Jigoku's status as the "Realm of Evil". For these two to flourish, Jigoku as the Realm of Evil must go. That can be done by either tweaking its nature so it has a more specific role than "Evil" ("Realm of Decay" might be a good starting point for an improved Jigoku), and it MUST involve moving parts of the taint (the "increased physical strength" and "increased combat abilities" part along with the "poor restraint on anger" ones to Toshigoku,s influence ; the "heightened senses" and "unnatural cravings" ones to Gaki-Do's influence, with Jigo retaining the "harder to kill" and "physical deformity"aspects).

Who here in this discussion has suggested removing the Shadowlands, or getting rid of the Taint, or eliminating Jigoku?

Me, I have.

I don't want to remove all of the productive things they do. I want something that is better suited to the setting to do them.

I would be fine with no Spirit Realms beyond Tengoku, which is the unassailable and unknowable Pure Land, and just putting all the weird spiritual and magical stuff in the "real world", where it should be.

Impurity, in Shinto, is just a thing that happens -- you get rid of it through ritual purification, but acquiring it is just a totally inescapable aspect of existing in the world. It's original sin, without any sense of wrongdoing. If you can't see at least a glimmer of how to adapt that into a version of the Taint that doesn't involve the existence of Jigoku, you're not trying very hard.

Like, you know that whole thing about Ningen-do being a "jealous realm" that taints anyone who ever touches it, and its taint is mortality? Don't make a new thing in addition to that. Build from that. The Kami who fell from the Pure Land discovered that the taint and impurity of the world would cause them to die. Most of them took pains to avoid getting more of this impurity. Fu Leng dove into it headfirst, and found it did way, way weirder stuff if you let it.

I totally get that, if one wants to make L5R's cosmology more "authentically Shinto".

I'm not sure that's what most people want or what most of us are going for.

"But I think the debate is more centered on the notion of the Abrahamic Hell ; this idea of a realm of evil that is the source of all Bad Spiritual Stuff (which, in the game, is what Jigoku is painted as). And that's something L5R could do without, in my opinion. Jigoku needs to go (or, rather, to be reduced a great deal in importance) . "

Let me introduce you to logic 101.

| Jigoku needs to go |
OR
| Rather to be reduce a great deal in importance |

"But I think the debate is more centered on the notion of the Abrahamic Hell ; this idea of a realm of evil that is the source of all Bad Spiritual Stuff (which, in the game, is what Jigoku is painted as). And that's something L5R could do without, in my opinion. Jigoku needs to go (or, rather, to be reduced a great deal in importance) . "

Let me introduce you to logic 101.

| Jigoku needs to go |

OR

| Rather to be reduce a great deal in importance |

In my experience, "Or rather" is typically used as a clarification , not to form a pair of alternatives.

Not half contrary are you ?