Yeah, but Maho is also different in that you sacrifice your body and soul to cast it.

Why is that different in context of this discussion?

Because a fundamental element of balance is the COST you put to the power you give characters. If using magic turn you into a monster and means you lose your character before too long of using super-magic in massive amounts, then the characters who work magic that way are by their very nature far more limited (and balanced) than those who just sling magic around.

I was answering a question about whether there were spells that could raise undead by max killjoy though

Not making a like for like comparison of Shugs and Maho Tsukai. You don't need to be a shug to be a bloodspeaker. Maho spells are still spells though

Actually, clever use of Importune and Negotiation, a Shugenja could change reality, depends on the GM mind you, and since most GM's don't want to even roleplay spirits, and just want to treat it as D&D magic... I rarely see it happening, but the mechanics exist that allow Shugenjas to make spells for pretty much anything the Kami can do.

And that can't really be balanced per se.

Courtiers have a similar problem, the setting supports them in being able to manipulate any person into a choice: Do what they want, or dishonor. But... if the GM or players don't want someone rolling dice to hamper their choices... it becomes moot. (There's also a good example in a book of a courtier raising someone to a fortune as a jibe against a shugenja ).

The problem with courtiers is that they're presented as being very able to manipulate, and some players (and fiction/setting authors) seem to take that as "courtiers can manipulate anyone into doing anyting and always set it up so they have no choice" -- they present "courtier skills" as a form of "social magic" that allows them to accomplish even the non-sensical and silly and setting-inappropriate.

Thing is, in any of the games i've played, I've never seen social magic like this being used. Have any of you got examples of when it went too far from your experience?

I'd be of the opinion that the GM is the one to blame in that situation.

Yup, the non-combat systems of L5R have some problems with interpretation, and frankly some groups have no interest in them. Thats sort of why I am advocating for multiple core books, it gives room and focus to flesh out these systems, but inherently makes those systems optional in the other books.

I've always viewed Courtier mechanics as social pressure, so you do have a choice... but... there are consequences.

Yeah, but Maho is also different in that you sacrifice your body and soul to cast it.

Why is that different in context of this discussion?

Because a fundamental element of balance is the COST you put to the power you give characters. If using magic turn you into a monster and means you lose your character before too long of using super-magic in massive amounts, then the characters who work magic that way are by their very nature far more limited (and balanced) than those who just sling magic around.

I was answering a question about whether there were spells that could raise undead by max killjoy though

Not making a like for like comparison of Shugs and Maho Tsukai. You don't need to be a shug to be a bloodspeaker. Maho spells are still spells though

A question he asked in the context of discussing limitations (eg, balance) of shugenja powers, therefore, the limitations inherent in raising undead are relevant :-p

Well in one game because we had a cynical GM, we assassinated most of the NPC's by using Courtier (Rumourmonger).

Yeah, but Maho is also different in that you sacrifice your body and soul to cast it.

Why is that different in context of this discussion?

Because a fundamental element of balance is the COST you put to the power you give characters. If using magic turn you into a monster and means you lose your character before too long of using super-magic in massive amounts, then the characters who work magic that way are by their very nature far more limited (and balanced) than those who just sling magic around.

I was answering a question about whether there were spells that could raise undead by max killjoy though

Not making a like for like comparison of Shugs and Maho Tsukai. You don't need to be a shug to be a bloodspeaker. Maho spells are still spells though

A question he asked in the context of discussing limitations (eg, balance) of shugenja powers, therefore, the limitations inherent in raising undead are relevant :-p

Ah the internet.

@Celt, with regards to your sitiatuion, I think that could work for one guy (or incident), but any time off that, a gm would have to say that courtiers from the otherside would get involved. That kind of thing is fine imo as long as there is conflict generated from it , and as long as its not a rank 1 courtier rumour mongering about Nitoshi of course

Moto, as I said it was a cynical gm... which felt that the other courtiers would help bringing down NPC's because... everybody in L5R just wants to see their rivals get tortured and executed for using "Maho".

Personally I would rework courtier rules to do social damage and social healing. Makes it easy to understand that yes... you can say the Crane Daimyo is a maho user... but his status and honor negate any damage a minor rumor could even do.

OTOH a ronin... prob. screwed.

Moto, as I said it was a cynical gm... which felt that the other courtiers would help bringing down NPC's because... everybody in L5R just wants to see their rivals get tortured and executed for using "Maho".

Personally I would rework courtier rules to do social damage and social healing. Makes it easy to understand that yes... you can say the Crane Daimyo is a maho user... but his status and honor negate any damage a minor rumor could even do.

I get ya. The only thing id say about that, is it makes it very clinical. The mechanic you imply kind of does exist already with the honor pool.

Moto, I meant a bit more... straightforward, and also easy to not get in the way of RP.

Like say Honor provides reduction, and Status a TN bonus to Social damage. Willpower/Etiquette would work like Reflexes/Defense in terms of TN.

You would have something akin to wounds based off Air ring. Granted... it could also be worked so the damage is lower and it can just reduce honor and glory directly.

Never did this. What I said is that when Magic comes in realism goes away and that is still intact cause I only used the IC world for my arguments which ofcourse is not REAL but only a FICTION.

So you said exactly what I said you said.

If all realism goes out the window, it takes logic and coherence with it, because those are the components of what most of us recognize as a plausible reality.

Once again, we can and do suspend our disbelief, but it only stretches so far..

Never did this. What I said is that when Magic comes in realism goes away and that is still intact cause I only used the IC world for my arguments which ofcourse is not REAL but only a FICTION.

So you said exactly what I said you said.

If all realism goes out the window, it takes logic and coherence with it, because those are the components of what most of us recognize as a plausible reality.

Once again, we can and do suspend our disbelief, but it only stretches so far..

It is one thing to suspend our disbelief.

It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

A completely different idea, not related to my seperate book idea.

Do shugenja need scrolls? How integral are scrolls to the setting?

Some before have mentioned just giving shugenja school techniques.

While I think Importune, Summon, and Sense are abilities integral to the setting. Magic is... basically asking the Kami to do something. So any shugenja should with the right negotiation achieve anything (with approprate costs)

But... does it need to be mechanically scrolls with spells?

On the other hand... maybe the opposite. Perhaps scrolls are seen as items, very rare and important. So instead a Shugenja gets a set amount as part of his/her outfit. And no more. Any higher level spell would need to be requested just like any other item.

Also, another random idea... if you want to encourage more spirituality why not add two skills:

Prayer and Excorcism.

Instead of the Ancestor advantages, you have prayer which for non-shugenja is how samurai interact with their ancestors.

Exorcism which might be a lore is how both shugenja and non-shugenja know how to fight evil spirits. (Sort of how Medicine can heal samurai instead of using Path to Inner Peace).

(I'm hoping that the edge I'm sensing here is an inference I'm making because of my own admittedly touchy nature... I really did not mean my post to come across as hostile, if it did.)

1. I think that's somewhat debatable given contradicting statements about the nature of the kami across the whole of the RPG text. I also think it's probably irrelevent, in that one way or the other, the kami are still intermediaty entities between the shugenja and the ability to manipulate the world. That is, the shugenja can't manipulate reality -- she has to "ask, bargain, or compell" the entities who hold that power. Her only power is in the rare ability to communicate so directly with the kami.

2. I'll have to review the spell section again. It didn't seem that way to me, but I'll take your word for it for now. (At work, can't really drag my L5R books in here and start perusing them at my desk...) Maybe we're drawing different lines on what are "combat spells".

3. I don't think we're insisting that the PC shugenja spend most of their time blessing newborns and presiding over funerals... just that we get more than the seeming "and shugenja do that stuff too, over there, mainly off screen, here's some vague detail". I think there's a lot of plot-hook and RP potential sitting there quietly in the corner when it comes to all those other, non-blasty, non-buffy things.

4a. That's kinda the problem -- if the people of Rokugan worship more than the elemental kami, and the Shugenja are ONLY elemental priests, then who communes with and conducts the rituals and ceremonies in honor off the Fortunes, the "big K" Kami, etc?

4b. Also a problem, for me, is that too much of the supernatural and spiritual in L5R has been pidgeon-holed into "elemental kami", "heaven or hell", or "unfathomably alien, dangerous, and beyond communicating with". This idea that only a handful of secretive organizations within a few clans have any ability to deal with ghosts or strange spirits... well, it just doesn't make any **** sense to me. It just doesn't seem to fit with the cultures and myths and folk tales and fictional works that inspired the setting.

Apparently I come across as more "edgy" on the internet, but I assure you, there was no intended harsh tone and I didn't get any sense of hostility from your post either.

Yay, the internet, amirite?

But, there's more replies to be made!

1) It may very well be the case that it is, in fact, a debatable issue. That's actually one of my biggest gripes about L5R in general, and 4th Edition specifically: Too many things that really needed to be defined were left open, so that you could "L5R Your Way." The nature of the elemental kami is one of those things - too much conflicting information to really truly just house-rule it and be done, ya know?

2) It's worth a look definitely, because most people see how shugenja can be abused and then assume that there just must be too many combat spells. In reality:

Fire is like, 60/40 combat/non-combat (and I only noticed 1 or 2 that were "iffy" on that label).

Earth has quite a few "combat defense" style spells, but just as many, or more, that aren't, and very few directly offensive-capable spells (unless you're Tainted, and then that number goes up a bit). Air has a handful of defensive and "battlefield control" oriented spells, but has much more in the way of social manipulation and illusion options.

Water almost entirely ignores the Strength aspect of the Ring and focuses almost entirely on Scrying, Movement, and Healing techniques, with only a couple offensive spells, one of which is clunky to use in an actual fight (but makes for a great assassination spell!)

Finally, Void is kind of all over the place, because it's Void and that's how Void do.

3&4) I think there is less plot-hook stuff than one would think, because most of the stuff you could easily hook a shugenja with is the type of stuff that leaves Bushi and Courtiers in the dust (in the same sense that if you're planning a Shadowlands-heavy game, you're probably warning your players away from Political character ideas).

But the real problem is that, for whatever dumb reason, the guys who were in charge of the game have gone way out of their way to make everything as much about the Great Clans as possible, and leave everything else (non-human races, minor clans, ronin, spirit realms, etc.) in the dust as "background noise."

If you read back where Kinzen and I are arguing earlier in the thread, I actually agree with her that more "spiritual matters" should be made the norm - that's Rokugan, after all, or it's supposed to be (why we so easily butt heads is where she argues for what should be, I argue for what is ). But I think spiritual matters should be more common for ALL class-types. Samurai, Courtiers, Monks, whatever should be able to interact with spiritual matters - why should they be the realm of spell casting? Make "spirits" more "visible" and you solve most of the problem. Shugenja can remain "elemental specialists" and everyone can expand their "fantasy gaming" in Rokugan. WIn/Win.

(A more specific answer to 4a: Communes with Fortunes, (K)ami, Elemental Dragons, etc? Practically no one. These are spiritual entities that are so powerful that you don't talk to them - they talk to you! And hardly ever at that. As for conducting rituals and ceremonies, that task falls to Shugenja [or Monks if Shugenja aren't available] but not because they're spellcasters or because they can speak with the kami; only because that's their designated social role within Rokugani Samurai culture. A shugenja leads religious ceremonies for the same reason a courtier attends court - it's their job.)

And that also leaves entirely open the question of how much shugenja can "change physical reality".

Considering the spells you can see shugenja slinging in the official Fictions and in the CCG can be significantly more powerful than anything you'll find in the RPG material... a lot! If anything, the RPG shugenja are too weak and need a buff to put them on par with their source references.

In regards to 3 and 4, part of it is, there is so much info-dump on samurai etiquette and basic spirituality (ancestors and fortunes), and then maho, and some basic oni. That there isn't any room in the book. Even the etiquette and court portions have been rehashed and done over a few times, in Core, then Emerald Empire, Sword and Fan, and Imperial Archives.

Because rokuganni disdain contact with anything not of the Empire, and not of their caste... all spiritual stuff is sort of stunted. I always found it amusing that Werewolf actually captures the broad spirituality and ancestor worship mechanically better than L5R does. Everyone in that game has access to their ancestors (well almost).

4th edtion captures that as very expensive advantages and disadvantages. I do think the GM should be encouraged to at the very least include ancestors and fortunes more often... and samurai should pray to them... or get punished. The game encourages meditation and tea ceremony by granting void points. Perhaps if the game added skills and a mechanical benefit, more players would have their samurai praying at shrines.

Bayushi, thats part of why I suggested multiple books earlier. Per setting, shugenja are vastly superior to anything else in the game. Like Jedi in Star Wars.

In regards to 3 and 4, part of it is, there is so much info-dump on samurai etiquette and basic spirituality (ancestors and fortunes), and then maho, and some basic oni. That there isn't any room in the book. Even the etiquette and court portions have been rehashed and done over a few times, in Core, then Emerald Empire, Sword and Fan, and Imperial Archives.

Because rokuganni disdain contact with anything not of the Empire, and not of their caste... all spiritual stuff is sort of stunted. I always found it amusing that Werewolf actually captures the broad spirituality and ancestor worship mechanically better than L5R does. Everyone in that game has access to their ancestors (well almost).

4th edtion captures that as very expensive advantages and disadvantages. I do think the GM should be encouraged to at the very least include ancestors and fortunes more often... and samurai should pray to them... or get punished. The game encourages meditation and tea ceremony by granting void points. Perhaps if the game added skills and a mechanical benefit, more players would have their samurai praying at shrines.

I think that is pretty much the problem. It isn't explained in the book, and there isn't enough room to explain it.

The only reason combat with swords is so clear to us is because we know how swords work out of character, we don't need to be told that swords cut people!

With magical effects, it is described what spells do in the book, but aside from those spells, it isn't really defined. Sense, Commune and Summon have explanations, but you could almost write an entire book laying out how the different elemental kami behave, how a shugenja interacts with them etc.

With regards to ancestors, I am not too certain how it is written in 4th edition, I know that there are defined ancestor advantages, but as you say, the rokugani tradition would have reverence for all of their ancestors. The same with the fortunes, which are also quite important even if you don't take the advantage.

You can't exactly lay out what "praying to bishamon" or Doji Kurohito does, and it isn't really written in the book, that if you pray at a bishamon shrine that you get a fixed bonus. All that kind of stuff has to be down to the GM. You can't really fit ALL of these little things into a book. You can touch on the ideas, but to outline a solid mechanic for everything really isn't feasible.

The countless possibilities in all aspects of the game are impossible to write a hard and fast rule for every single detail in a book, so I can understand that. Problem is, this leaves uncertainty for things that we have no knowledge coming into the game. Like I said, we know how swords work! But without living in the society, and feeding off scraps from the book, it is very difficult to know how courts work, or how the shugenja's interaction with a kami works.

As an example, I've had several differnt GMs and been a GM myself for campaigns. I think we all did magic, and how shugenja work AND the courts in slightly differing ways. None of us are correct, as it is pretty subjective. But I think ALL of us still captured the essence of how it works, and the theme the books try to put forward.

I'm not saying the books are bad at all. But they are limited, and rightly so. I actually think the 4th edition books are wonderful. I love everything about them even if information is somewhat sparse in places.

RPG Books are written to outline a universe, but they are also written with the intention that a GM will come along and interpret them and fill in the gaps with educated guesses. It doesn't mind really if everything is done exactly correct as long as there is enough there for the GM to get the theme across, Which I firmly believe there is.

And that also leaves entirely open the question of how much shugenja can "change physical reality".

Considering the spells you can see shugenja slinging in the official Fictions and in the CCG can be significantly more powerful than anything you'll find in the RPG material... a lot! If anything, the RPG shugenja are too weak and need a buff to put them on par with their source references.

Honestly, I'd be happy to consider the RPG and the card game to exist in seperate parallel worlds without identical setting details.

The balance between cards in a CCG or LCG is an entirely different beast than the balance between characters in an RPG, and neither game should have to "suffer" for "honoring" the minutia or balance issues of the other. As long as every "deck" can have, for an appropriate cost, its big-bad spell-casting cards, with mountain-shattering or city-burning or hurricane-invoking shugenja fluff text, that's fine. Those same effects dropped into an RPG "because magic" or "because card game" isn't such a great idea.

But the real problem is that, for whatever dumb reason, the guys who were in charge of the game have gone way out of their way to make everything as much about the Great Clans as possible, and leave everything else (non-human races, minor clans, ronin, spirit realms, etc.) in the dust as "background noise."

If you read back where Kinzen and I are arguing earlier in the thread, I actually agree with her that more "spiritual matters" should be made the norm - that's Rokugan, after all, or it's supposed to be (why we so easily butt heads is where she argues for what should be, I argue for what is ). But I think spiritual matters should be more common for ALL class-types. Samurai, Courtiers, Monks, whatever should be able to interact with spiritual matters - why should they be the realm of spell casting? Make "spirits" more "visible" and you solve most of the problem. Shugenja can remain "elemental specialists" and everyone can expand their "fantasy gaming" in Rokugan. WIn/Win.

What's that there about you arguing for what *is*, rather than what *should be*? :-P

But you and I don't disagree on this point. When I say I want spiritual matters to be a bigger deal and the thing shugenja specialize in, I don't mean that you have to be able to talk to the kami to do *anything* with them. (Just like you don't need bushi ranks to be useful in a skirmish, or courtier training to open your mouth at court.) Just that you have a foundation for saying "here's what you can do without special instruction; here's what you can do *with* special instruction."

To illustrate: in pondering what kinds of things I'd like to see shugenja spells do that they currently don't, I came up with a few possibilities.

* Say that by default, spirits speak the languages of their Spirit Realms, and the intelligent/humanoid ones can learn and choose to speak Rokugani, but don't always. Now shugenja can have spells for understanding those languages and speaking them back to the spirits, or translating their words into Rokugani so that everyone can understand. Bushi and courtiers, however, can still talk to the ones who know Rokugani and speak it voluntarily, leaving room for social interactions that don't require a shugenja's presence, while still making shugenja useful in ways that can't be 100% duplicated with skills.

* Some spirits are or can choose to become incorporeal, at which point they get the usual effects of the Spirit quality. Non-shugenja can hit them, but need jade or crystal or nemuranai if they want to do more than half damage. Shugenja are useful not just because they can hit them with magic, but because you give them a spell that can make the spirit corporeal (with a contested roll if the spirit is unwilling). This helps out in combat, but also has utility outside of it.

* Clearer delineation of Lore skills and how they relate to the spirits. For the purposes of my Togashi Dynasty campaign (where this is pretty relevant, because Owl), I've got five skills for nonhumans: Naga, Nezumi, Five Ancient Races, Spirit Realms, and Yokai. Going through to figure out which critters go with which skill has made it apparent just how much of a mess that aspect of the worldbuilding is. But clean that up, and then you can say that, like Theology, Lore: Spirit Realms is a thing many shugenja study, but nothing stops bushi and courtiers from picking it up. And if you want, you can have spells that insta-ID the realm a creature comes from or even its exact nature.

That's what I've come up with in spare moments; I haven't put much thought into it beyond that, because it would require more ground-up reworking of the setting and mechanics than I really have time for right now. But it gives a sense of what I mean.

But the real problem is that, for whatever dumb reason, the guys who were in charge of the game have gone way out of their way to make everything as much about the Great Clans as possible, and leave everything else (non-human races, minor clans, ronin, spirit realms, etc.) in the dust as "background noise."

If you read back where Kinzen and I are arguing earlier in the thread, I actually agree with her that more "spiritual matters" should be made the norm - that's Rokugan, after all, or it's supposed to be (why we so easily butt heads is where she argues for what should be, I argue for what is ). But I think spiritual matters should be more common for ALL class-types. Samurai, Courtiers, Monks, whatever should be able to interact with spiritual matters - why should they be the realm of spell casting? Make "spirits" more "visible" and you solve most of the problem. Shugenja can remain "elemental specialists" and everyone can expand their "fantasy gaming" in Rokugan. WIn/Win.

What's that there about you arguing for what *is*, rather than what *should be*? :-P

But you and I don't disagree on this point. When I say I want spiritual matters to be a bigger deal and the thing shugenja specialize in, I don't mean that you have to be able to talk to the kami to do *anything* with them. (Just like you don't need bushi ranks to be useful in a skirmish, or courtier training to open your mouth at court.) Just that you have a foundation for saying "here's what you can do without special instruction; here's what you can do *with* special instruction."

To illustrate: in pondering what kinds of things I'd like to see shugenja spells do that they currently don't, I came up with a few possibilities.

* Say that by default, spirits speak the languages of their Spirit Realms, and the intelligent/humanoid ones can learn and choose to speak Rokugani, but don't always. Now shugenja can have spells for understanding those languages and speaking them back to the spirits, or translating their words into Rokugani so that everyone can understand. Bushi and courtiers, however, can still talk to the ones who know Rokugani and speak it voluntarily, leaving room for social interactions that don't require a shugenja's presence, while still making shugenja useful in ways that can't be 100% duplicated with skills.

* Some spirits are or can choose to become incorporeal, at which point they get the usual effects of the Spirit quality. Non-shugenja can hit them, but need jade or crystal or nemuranai if they want to do more than half damage. Shugenja are useful not just because they can hit them with magic, but because you give them a spell that can make the spirit corporeal (with a contested roll if the spirit is unwilling). This helps out in combat, but also has utility outside of it.

* Clearer delineation of Lore skills and how they relate to the spirits. For the purposes of my Togashi Dynasty campaign (where this is pretty relevant, because Owl), I've got five skills for nonhumans: Naga, Nezumi, Five Ancient Races, Spirit Realms, and Yokai. Going through to figure out which critters go with which skill has made it apparent just how much of a mess that aspect of the worldbuilding is. But clean that up, and then you can say that, like Theology, Lore: Spirit Realms is a thing many shugenja study, but nothing stops bushi and courtiers from picking it up. And if you want, you can have spells that insta-ID the realm a creature comes from or even its exact nature.

That's what I've come up with in spare moments; I haven't put much thought into it beyond that, because it would require more ground-up reworking of the setting and mechanics than I really have time for right now. But it gives a sense of what I mean.

You know the part of "here's what you can do without special instruction/..." that you mention, that is EXACTLY how it works already.

Spells also don't come from the spirit realms like tengoku, ningen do, yomi etc. Spells as shugenja "cast" them are basically a set of written down rote instructions telling the kami what to do. They could speak it themselves through conversation, but the spell scroll and the words written on it are nothing more than discussing actions with the kami, they are used for quick communication, as this what spell research has found works fastest, and also for tradition. This is the sole reason for the sense commune and summon abilities. Without them, you would basically have X number of spells you can do, which are written in the book, instead of their being versatility and real communication with the kami to be able to do other tricks that think outside of the box. What you are proposing above, is exactly what exists now.

I feel like you are mixing up the kami of each element with beings from spirit realms. They are magical in nature, but shugenja don't really use them in the same way as the kami. The only thing close to it would be the Kitsu, and that is a specialised thing the lion can do.

I feel like a lot of what you suggest really breaks the lore of shugenja and how magic works in rokugan.

Moto, this is what I sent to a new player who was trying a courtier in the game I am currently in (which has a pretty decent GM)

Sword and Fan

Emerald Empire

Great Clans

Imperial Archives

Moto you are right, though I don't think it breaks setting if you remove the monopoly earth kami have on dealing with other spirits.

Kinzen, basically Shugenja as a whole are people that can hear what the elemental kami can say, as they normally can't speak to morals... they usually can only manifest as physical material.

Ishiken which use the Shugenja rules don't speak to void kami, in fact its not really well-explained what they do, but they have the ability to manipulate reality more directly...

Ghosts, Spirits from outside Rokugan (like animal spirits), can manifest and communicate with Rokuganni. There are a few specialized schools for dealing with them. And Bushi need Jade or Cyrstal weapons.

Anyone can actually cast magic, its called maho.

But the real problem is that, for whatever dumb reason, the guys who were in charge of the game have gone way out of their way to make everything as much about the Great Clans as possible, and leave everything else (non-human races, minor clans, ronin, spirit realms, etc.) in the dust as "background noise."

If you read back where Kinzen and I are arguing earlier in the thread, I actually agree with her that more "spiritual matters" should be made the norm - that's Rokugan, after all, or it's supposed to be (why we so easily butt heads is where she argues for what should be, I argue for what is ). But I think spiritual matters should be more common for ALL class-types. Samurai, Courtiers, Monks, whatever should be able to interact with spiritual matters - why should they be the realm of spell casting? Make "spirits" more "visible" and you solve most of the problem. Shugenja can remain "elemental specialists" and everyone can expand their "fantasy gaming" in Rokugan. WIn/Win.

What's that there about you arguing for what *is*, rather than what *should be*? :-P

But you and I don't disagree on this point. When I say I want spiritual matters to be a bigger deal and the thing shugenja specialize in, I don't mean that you have to be able to talk to the kami to do *anything* with them. (Just like you don't need bushi ranks to be useful in a skirmish, or courtier training to open your mouth at court.) Just that you have a foundation for saying "here's what you can do without special instruction; here's what you can do *with* special instruction."

To illustrate: in pondering what kinds of things I'd like to see shugenja spells do that they currently don't, I came up with a few possibilities.

* Say that by default, spirits speak the languages of their Spirit Realms, and the intelligent/humanoid ones can learn and choose to speak Rokugani, but don't always. Now shugenja can have spells for understanding those languages and speaking them back to the spirits, or translating their words into Rokugani so that everyone can understand. Bushi and courtiers, however, can still talk to the ones who know Rokugani and speak it voluntarily, leaving room for social interactions that don't require a shugenja's presence, while still making shugenja useful in ways that can't be 100% duplicated with skills.

* Some spirits are or can choose to become incorporeal, at which point they get the usual effects of the Spirit quality. Non-shugenja can hit them, but need jade or crystal or nemuranai if they want to do more than half damage. Shugenja are useful not just because they can hit them with magic, but because you give them a spell that can make the spirit corporeal (with a contested roll if the spirit is unwilling). This helps out in combat, but also has utility outside of it.

* Clearer delineation of Lore skills and how they relate to the spirits. For the purposes of my Togashi Dynasty campaign (where this is pretty relevant, because Owl), I've got five skills for nonhumans: Naga, Nezumi, Five Ancient Races, Spirit Realms, and Yokai. Going through to figure out which critters go with which skill has made it apparent just how much of a mess that aspect of the worldbuilding is. But clean that up, and then you can say that, like Theology, Lore: Spirit Realms is a thing many shugenja study, but nothing stops bushi and courtiers from picking it up. And if you want, you can have spells that insta-ID the realm a creature comes from or even its exact nature.

That's what I've come up with in spare moments; I haven't put much thought into it beyond that, because it would require more ground-up reworking of the setting and mechanics than I really have time for right now. But it gives a sense of what I mean.

You know the part of "here's what you can do without special instruction/..." that you mention, that is EXACTLY how it works already.

Spells also don't come from the spirit realms like tengoku, ningen do, yomi etc. Spells as shugenja "cast" them are basically a set of written down rote instructions telling the kami what to do. They could speak it themselves through conversation, but the spell scroll and the words written on it are nothing more than discussing actions with the kami, they are used for quick communication, as this what spell research has found works fastest, and also for tradition. This is the sole reason for the sense commune and summon abilities. Without them, you would basically have X number of spells you can do, which are written in the book, instead of their being versatility and real communication with the kami to be able to do other tricks that think outside of the box. What you are proposing above, is exactly what exists now.

I feel like you are mixing up the kami of each element with beings from spirit realms. They are magical in nature, but shugenja don't really use them in the same way as the kami. The only thing close to it would be the Kitsu, and that is a specialised thing the lion can do.

I feel like a lot of what you suggest really breaks the lore of shugenja and how magic works in rokugan.

When Kinzen says the following...

But you and I don't disagree on this point. When I say I want spiritual matters to be a bigger deal and the thing shugenja specialize in, I don't mean that you have to be able to talk to the kami to do *anything* with them. (Just like you don't need bushi ranks to be useful in a skirmish, or courtier training to open your mouth at court.) Just that you have a foundation for saying "here's what you can do without special instruction; here's what you can do *with* special instruction."

... she isn't just talking about Shugenja, I think. She's talking about how you don't have to be a bushi to use a sword, you don't have to be coutier to negotiate, and you don't have to be an artisan to compose a poem... and maybe you shouldn't have to be a shugenja to interact with spirits, and shugenja shouldn't be restricted to talking to elemental kami spirits.

And I'm almost certain she's not specifically talking about spellcasting, but rather the entirety of how Rokugan's interaction with all spirits.

As it stands, she's right, the worldbuilding is a mess when it comes to this aspect of the setting.

I feel like you are mixing up the kami of each element with beings from spirit realms. They are magical in nature, but shugenja don't really use them in the same way as the kami. The only thing close to it would be the Kitsu, and that is a specialised thing the lion can do.

I feel like a lot of what you suggest really breaks the lore of shugenja and how magic works in rokugan.

What Killjoy says in the post above this one, but also--no one is mixing up elemental kami with other spirits. Many people in this thread, including Kinzen in the post you mention, are instead suggesting that both lore and mechanics could use clarification and, yes, some improvement on this point. According to the lore and setting fluff generally, Shugenja are supposed to be the main spiritual interface of Rokugani society (in the same way that Bushi are the martial interface and Courtiers the courtly one). Mechanically, however, they're distinguished mainly by using a lot of spells and spells are built--mostly pretty directly--around the physical elements in a way that only slightly incorporates anything else spiritual. The lore definitely doesn't come out and say "Shugenja deal with the elements and don't deal with other aspects of spirituality" (indeed, more the opposite, if anything), it's just that with a few exceptions that's what the mechanics support. And that is at least in some part, as others have pointed out, because of how many spells have been ported over from CCG cards...

The various suggestions people have been making in that regard by and large wouldn't break the lore of magic--I don't think they'd require much in the way of lore changes at all, in fact. Nor would they break he mechanics of magic (make it unbalanced or non-functional). They would certainly change the way it works to some extent, mostly by giving it a function in areas that are hardly covered at all right now (and possibly balancing that by toning it down in other areas). But that's only "breaking" if significant change has to be negative.

TL;DR: No one (well, hardly anyone) is confused about how things work right now . We just have a variety of opinions about how it could work better in the future. This is a pretty important distinction.