I'm not saying that we need to change it because of realism.

I'm saying we need to change it because of game balance, and that we CAN change it WITHOUT being unrealistic (that is, we don't need to say "the fire is magical so it's LESS harmful than real fire")

I'm saying the change need to be that a samurai designed to play a specific role in a party and a shugenja designed to play the same role (whether that role be direct damage, protecting others, or what have you) should be about equal in terms of ability to actually do their job.

The build you seem to favor, meanwhile is "Shugenja are better at everything except protecting shugenja". Which is frankly a horrible vision of what the game should be like that reduce the vast majority of schools to "Whatever, we're just fighting off the mob while the shugenja does all the work".

NO the build I favor is increasing the Bushi and courtier power. If we look at the Yasuki courtier fgor example he can do something no Shugenja can and that is getting anything he needs. So thats a good example how courtier could become unique. Increasing the overall powerlvl of Bushi and

Courtier is what I want. Yes this is more work but thats also would make the game more epic and push it more in the Wuxia /Anime direction I like.

Apologies. Mistook your line of argument for someone else's, it seems.

You'll note my FIRST suggestion was that we should up how lethal samurai attacks are.

Of course, there too you run into game balance - there's a point where the game just gets too lethal for player characters. So you have to find the right balance of lethal attacks, and adjust EVERYONE'S power level so they're at that level. Which is the core point.

That said, while we should absolutely up the power of the other groups, this should be done with respect to the other groups's nature. Samurai should NOT be able to punch the earth with a dai-tsuchi to create an earthquake, or to slice an entire ship in two with their katana in a single strike, or to turn their swords into lightsabers, or to shoot arrows around corners, or anything of the sort. That has no place in L5R. Courtiers should not have mind control or anything of the sort (but they absolutely need a more effective social warfare array, including the ability to use social warfare *during* actual battles).

Slightly more wuxia/anime flavor is fine, but ultimately, this is NOT Dragonball: the RPG (not saying that's what you want, highlighting places where the game shouldn't go. (Nor is it Kurosawa: the RPG, no matter how much THAT lot want it to be). Rurouni Kenshin: the RPG might (barely) pass muster, and even that is probably a little bit more fantastic than L5R's samurai really ought to be .

Well, if you want to stay true to the setting, shugenja will eventually outshine everyone else.

Why? In what sense? I can't say I've seen a convincing argument yet that this is either inevitable or necessary. C.f. the discussion earlier in this thread (darn, I hope it was in this thread--so many threads on the same cluster of topics!) about domains of action where various characters stand out more than others.

Well, if you want to stay true to the setting, shugenja will eventually outshine everyone else.

Why? In what sense? I can't say I've seen a convincing argument yet that this is either inevitable or necessary. C.f. the discussion earlier in this thread (darn, I hope it was in this thread--so many threads on the same cluster of topics!) about domains of action where various characters stand out more than others.

Because in the setting, shugenja are usually the mary sues that come in and save the day. They also tend to be the ones that are the big bads.

I mean the entire thing about the Phoenix is they get their butts kicked until they've had enough and the Isawa come in and just wipe out the opposing army with one spell. (Usually changing the landscape)

The setting paints experienced shugenja as tactical nukes, most sides try not to use them since... doing so will vastly increase the body count.

The closest in power a bushi could get to is army command.

But thats also why I thought of it as three seperate tiers, in court courtiers and bushi each have things to do (art, politics, negotiation, dueling, guarding)

Magistrates are investigation oriented, this is where low level shugenja and investigation/tracking type bushi/courtiers are useful.

In War, you can have the main characters be commanders, with shugenjas as tactical nukes. (Though I think it best to keep shugenjas as NPCs here, not fun sitting around not being used)

That seems to be largely an exaggeration of the setting, mostly reflecting a small handful of fire shugenja (Sezaru and Darth Tsuke being the chief culprits), who were either varyingly insane, or corrupt, or both.

Which might be a hint that while shugenja CAN go tactical nukes, it's not the healthy path for them to take, and should come with very severe consequences.

So while the explanations could be better they are there and fit the setting. People can dislike them but they are explained with things form the setting and are therefore no problem

when it comes to the logic of the setting.

So you admit that the presence of magic doesn't obviate the need for logic and basic theory through-lines. Thank you.

^^Wait, wasn't the "new" Motor Curse in fact the "old" Moto Curse? I always thought that the Lords of Death pulled a Daigotsu/Taint maneuver and instead of lifting the curse, they just suppressed it. I mean, those guys are not exactly the paragons of trust, so to speak. Wasn't this the reason Shinjo reincarnated as a Moto? I can faintly remember something about Shinjo coming back to purge the Moto Death Cult in the same way she had purged the Kolat.

No, it was "residue" from the old Curse, a karmic weight which we never actually saw come into play, and which basically only existed in order to give the Phoenix something to be both correct and incredibly rude about.

It was also a pretty blatant attempt to backpedal from what would otherwise have been a semi-scientific backing for the setting's appalling ingrained racism, since at first it was "gaijin blood makes you vulnerable to corruption" (and still basically was that on flavor texts up through Twenty Festivals, since the cards were written well in advance of the fictions) and then got retconned to "no, no, it's just karmic baggage left over from the Old Moto Curse."

The problem there being, whichever route the story went, there really wasn't any evidence available to the reader to back it up, so it was, "the Phoenix say so, and they're correct." But where Rokugani (supposedly) accept appeals to authority, English-literate readers in the 21st Century want a bit more... hence why the explanations Tev offers in the first post I quote here fell flat.There were explanations, but they weren't grounded enough.

Because in the setting, shugenja are usually the mary sues that come in and save the day. They also tend to be the ones that are the big bads.

I mean the entire thing about the Phoenix is they get their butts kicked until they've had enough and the Isawa come in and just wipe out the opposing army with one spell. (Usually changing the landscape)

The setting paints experienced shugenja as tactical nukes, most sides try not to use them since... doing so will vastly increase the body count.

I'm inclined to respond along the lines of [citation needed]--and also, more productively, to flag for your attention this discussion over here: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191507-rpg-speculations-part-1/?p=1867636 (darn multiple redundant threads).

That seems to be largely an exaggeration of the setting, mostly reflecting a small handful of fire shugenja (Sezaru and Darth Tsuke being the chief culprits), who were either varyingly insane, or corrupt, or both.

Which might be a hint that while shugenja CAN go tactical nukes, it's not the healthy path for them to take, and should come with very severe consequences.

Indeed, that's my impression too.

Actually, I wonder if it wouldn't also help resolve this contradiction a bit to throw some Mass Casting rules/spells in with whatever optional-ish section gets the Mass Battle charts. If under normal circumstances (in the absence of insane once-in-generations tensai and ishiken possibly wielding dangerous nemuranai) it actually takes the full, severely taxing effort of a legion of shugenga to, say, channel elemental fire effectively in battle, raise big earthquakes and major storms, or teleport an army, that could explain how you can have, say, a "Firestorm Legion" and still have their use be rather rare and not make mundane warfare utterly irrelevant.

Strongholds of the Empire, Isawa Sachi raised the island that became Broken Wave City. I suppose I can hunt down other fiction. But I don't recall isawa Sachi being portrayed as being all that more powerful from the other Elemental Masters.

Emerald Empire p229

The reason shugenja use in battle is rare, is due to

1.) Shugenja being rare themselves, and valuable.

2.) Many Clans don't consider it honorable.

3.) Sword and Fan does make mention that wholesale destruction is a forbidden practice.

The setting places the controls to supposedly balance shugenja. They have a lot of powerful utility spells for finding information; but that information can't be used in court. So you need status and social skills to actually succeed.

Social settings severely hamper usage of spells, which are very visible, and its dishonorable. So I have yet to see a social shugenja outdo a courtier here. I have seen social shugenja support courtiers well.

Skirmishes do have situations where a battle shugenja can outdo some bushi, but you need a LOT more XP than the bushi to get to this point. Limiting the dice kept on damage for spells would mitigate that. (Maybe give the Kuni a 1k1 damage bonus to Jade spells).

I would be in favor of making the support spells for combat multi-target, that would make it an actual valid tactical decision. Usually skirmishes last 1-2 rounds, so... the best option is to just take down one of the bandits.

But I like your idea, it would solve many problems. Though I would just make it so the Rank 5,6 combat spells would instead link to the Mass Battle system.

- Augment the Battle roll the Tactician must make.

- Do structural damage (Like siege engines)

- Increase wounds dice everyone takes when they come up in mass battle.

- Augment the army.

- Give reduction to your fortifications.

Things like that.

Well, if you want to stay true to the setting, shugenja will eventually outshine everyone else.

Why? In what sense? I can't say I've seen a convincing argument yet that this is either inevitable or necessary.

Stealing a Facebook comment from Rob Hobart that pretty much answers this question, although almost never to the satisfaction of forum-goers

Rob Hobart *lol*

I love how people think characters who can literally change physical reality should somehow be "balanced" with characters who swing swords or make clever speeches.

Teveshszat, on 01 Nov 2015 - 1:36 PM, said:

So while the explanations could be better they are there and fit the setting. People can dislike them but they are explained with things form the setting and are therefore no problem
when it comes to the logic of the setting.

So you admit that the presence of magic doesn't obviate the need for logic and basic theory through-lines. Thank you.

Never did this. What I said is that when Magic comes in realism goes away and that is still intact cause I only used the IC world for my arguments which ofcourse is not REAL but only a FICTION.

Well, if you want to stay true to the setting, shugenja will eventually outshine everyone else.

Why? In what sense? I can't say I've seen a convincing argument yet that this is either inevitable or necessary.

Stealing a Facebook comment from Rob Hobart that pretty much answers this question, although almost never to the satisfaction of forum-goers

Rob Hobart *lol*

I love how people think characters who can literally change physical reality should somehow be "balanced" with characters who swing swords or make clever speeches.

Stop right there! Shugenjas don't change physical reality - the kami do. The shugenja just swing scrolls and make clever speeches, and as a result the kami will change physical reality for them. There is a whole world of difference between "I do X" and "I make A to do X". I suppose most people miss exactly this difference from the current shugenja mechanics.

Semantic argument is full of semantics.

Well, if you want to stay true to the setting, shugenja will eventually outshine everyone else.

Why? In what sense? I can't say I've seen a convincing argument yet that this is either inevitable or necessary.

Stealing a Facebook comment from Rob Hobart that pretty much answers this question, although almost never to the satisfaction of forum-goers

Rob Hobart *lol*I love how people think characters who can literally change physical reality should somehow be "balanced" with characters who swing swords or make clever speeches.

Wow. That's kinda crap.

On rarity, how many of you guys have either told a player "no thou can't be a shugenja were already have one abd they are rare so it doesn't make sense for there to be two in the group. " or been told that by an st? I'm willing to bet absolutely zero.

Well, if you want to stay true to the setting, shugenja will eventually outshine everyone else.

Why? In what sense? I can't say I've seen a convincing argument yet that this is either inevitable or necessary.

Stealing a Facebook comment from Rob Hobart that pretty much answers this question, although almost never to the satisfaction of forum-goers

Rob Hobart *lol*I love how people think characters who can literally change physical reality should somehow be "balanced" with characters who swing swords or make clever speeches.

Wow. That's kinda crap.

On rarity, how many of you guys have either told a player "no thou can't be a shugenja were already have one abd they are rare so it doesn't make sense for there to be two in the group. " or been told that by an st? I'm willing to bet absolutely zero.

Actually, I've told several groups that along the way. When I set up a game, I usually have in mind at least the level of "supernatural" threat I plan for the party to eventually encounter, and I limit or increase the number of shugenja accordingly.

With very few exceptions, I usually run a group with just one shugenja. We usually have a preparation gathering and divvy up the rolls according to what the time line might need and what the individual players want to play. I've only run a group with more than two shugenja when there were 14 people at the table. Truthfully, most of the people I run with don't like playing the shugenja because they find the bushi can be more versatile--the shugenja have too many responsibilities.

And, I've never actually had a problem with shugenja or bushi having something concrete and valuable to do. We had a problem for a while with the courtiers finding their niche, but as we got better at the system (and especially as I got better as a GM of the system), the courtiers came into their own.

Well, if you want to stay true to the setting, shugenja will eventually outshine everyone else.

Why? In what sense? I can't say I've seen a convincing argument yet that this is either inevitable or necessary.

Stealing a Facebook comment from Rob Hobart that pretty much answers this question, although almost never to the satisfaction of forum-goers

Rob Hobart *lol*I love how people think characters who can literally change physical reality should somehow be "balanced" with characters who swing swords or make clever speeches.

Wow. That's kinda crap.

On rarity, how many of you guys have either told a player "no thou can't be a shugenja were already have one abd they are rare so it doesn't make sense for there to be two in the group. " or been told that by an st? I'm willing to bet absolutely zero.

Only on one occasion has there been more than 1 shug in a party of players. In all the games we have played, shugs were also a rarity, you'd have to go to some effort to find one, and they wouldn't always be willing to help. That has been the line myself and my buddies have taken with it anyways over the years.

The game where there were two shugs, I was an earth shug and another party member was fire. While we were powerful, we still ended up pulling off some cool stunts which bushi wouldn't of been able to, while at the same time didn't go around wrecking people for the sake of it.

Edit - to clarify, I have been playing l5r rpg for about 13 years.

Well, if you want to stay true to the setting, shugenja will eventually outshine everyone else.

Why? In what sense? I can't say I've seen a convincing argument yet that this is either inevitable or necessary.

Stealing a Facebook comment from Rob Hobart that pretty much answers this question, although almost never to the satisfaction of forum-goers

Rob Hobart *lol*

I love how people think characters who can literally change physical reality should somehow be "balanced" with characters who swing swords or make clever speeches.

They're not changing reality, though, are they? Aren't the kami are an integral part of that world's "reality"? They're either the essence of, or outright and literally the substance of, the physical reality of that world. The reality is that some people can talk to kami and get those kami to do certain things... right?

And that also leaves entirely open the question of how much shugenja can "change physical reality". Again, back to the unspoken assumption (here on Rob's part) that there's only a binary choice of "no magic at all" or "magic exists, therefore anything goes".

What can be changed, and what can't? Isn't it true that there are no "raise dead" spells in Rokugan? Wouldn't that be a clear sign that there are limits on what Shugenja can do, and that magic isn't an "anything goes" free pass?

Wow. That's kinda crap.

On rarity, how many of you guys have either told a player "no thou can't be a shugenja were already have one abd they are rare so it doesn't make sense for there to be two in the group. " or been told that by an st? I'm willing to bet absolutely zero.

This is pretty common in my group because we want to fit in the setting as much as possible. The first thing people in my group asks is: "Is there a Shugenja?", once they know there's one, they pick another type of character. We mostly run at 3 to 5 players, so we prefer when the team is balanced and fit the setting.

I'm not even afraid to add more limits depending on the style of the game I wanna do. It's part of the storyteller job to do this. My game limitation was: "1 character per Clan maximum." None of my players complains, instead, they talked together to deal a Clan they wanted to play the most. It's part of the game.

Well, if you want to stay true to the setting, shugenja will eventually outshine everyone else.

Why? In what sense? I can't say I've seen a convincing argument yet that this is either inevitable or necessary.

Stealing a Facebook comment from Rob Hobart that pretty much answers this question, although almost never to the satisfaction of forum-goers

Rob Hobart *lol*

I love how people think characters who can literally change physical reality should somehow be "balanced" with characters who swing swords or make clever speeches.

They're not changing reality, though, are they? Aren't the kami are an integral part of that world's "reality"? They're either the essence of, or outright and literally the substance of, the physical reality of that world. The reality is that some people can talk to kami and get those kami to do certain things... right?

And that also leaves entirely open the question of how much shugenja can "change physical reality". Again, back to the unspoken assumption (here on Rob's part) that there's only a binary choice of "no magic at all" or "magic exists, therefore anything goes".

What can be changed, and what can't? Isn't it true that there are no "raise dead" spells in Rokugan? Wouldn't that be a clear sign that there are limits on what Shugenja can do, and that magic isn't an "anything goes" free pass?

Soshi Bantaro would disagree!

I am not 100% certain, but I am pretty sure there are some maho spells that can effectively raise dead.

Maho magic is different though, in that you don't need a special natural gift to use it like a shug. Any scrub can do it.

Edit - Here's one http://l5r.wikia.com/wiki/Summon_Undead_Champion

Yeah, but Maho is also different in that you sacrifice your body and soul to cast it.

As for Rob Hobart's quote: and that, ladies and gentlemen, is someone who doesn't understand game design. At all. Which is kinda troublesome given the roles he has played in the past.

Yeah, but Maho is also different in that you sacrifice your body and soul to cast it.

Why is that different in context of this discussion?

Actually, clever use of Importune and Negotiation, a Shugenja could change reality, depends on the GM mind you, and since most GM's don't want to even roleplay spirits, and just want to treat it as D&D magic... I rarely see it happening, but the mechanics exist that allow Shugenjas to make spells for pretty much anything the Kami can do.

And that can't really be balanced per se.

Courtiers have a similar problem, the setting supports them in being able to manipulate any person into a choice: Do what they want, or dishonor. But... if the GM or players don't want someone rolling dice to hamper their choices... it becomes moot. (There's also a good example in a book of a courtier raising someone to a fortune as a jibe against a shugenja ).

What I do want:

1. SOMETHING that makes their spellcasting mechanically fit the "fluff" of how their magic works -- even if that something takes place outside of the heated moments of combat. They don't call upon the elements -- they call upon intermediary entities -- and I'd like the system to reflect that a bit more clearly.

2. Within their spellcasting, more attention to things that aren't about stuff blowing up or being blown away. And no, not the "bless more crops today" strawman.

3. Within their role in society as priests, more on what they do other than just being spell-casters.

4. Clarity -- are they elemental priests, dealing only with elemental spirits? Or is it broader? If the latter, then include more about things like dealing with the angry spirits in a place that are causing problems, and by that I don't mean "force them into combat, or exorcise them." Of course, this would require dialing back the way that L5R has seemed at times eager to cram all spiritual issues into the "heaven versus hell eternal conflict" thing that's another more-western element in their setting that they keep trying to remind us is Asian, Asian, and more Asian.

1- The elements are the kami. They aren't intermediary entities at all, but are the elemental entities themselves. A rock is made up entirely of Earth kami. A gust of wind is Air kami. Etc.

2- There are tons of spells that have nothing to do with combat. Fire has by far the most combat spells, and even that is only half the list of spell options for the element.

3- The role of Shugenja in daily life is very well defined. The problem is that it's not very interesting for a Player Character. Leading religious ceremonies, offering spiritual advice, and communing with the kami for no other reason than communing with the kami doesn't exactly make for a very interesting game story.

4- Define, "dealing with." Shugenja put more emphasis on learning spiritual lore than any other samurai/monk/whoever in the empire, but their physical talent is only related to the elemental kami. So while a Shugenja might know plenty of things about other spiritual creatures/realms/phenomena etc. they aren't necessarily any better equipped to interact with those things. (This is where School techniques make up for where spellcasting fails, and you get schools like the Toritaka, Kitsu, Kitsune, etc. who are better equipped to deal with certain things outside of the realm of "just the elements.")

(I'm hoping that the edge I'm sensing here is an inference I'm making because of my own admittedly touchy nature... I really did not mean my post to come across as hostile, if it did.)

1. I think that's somewhat debatable given contradicting statements about the nature of the kami across the whole of the RPG text. I also think it's probably irrelevent, in that one way or the other, the kami are still intermediaty entities between the shugenja and the ability to manipulate the world. That is, the shugenja can't manipulate reality -- she has to "ask, bargain, or compell" the entities who hold that power. Her only power is in the rare ability to communicate so directly with the kami.

2. I'll have to review the spell section again. It didn't seem that way to me, but I'll take your word for it for now. (At work, can't really drag my L5R books in here and start perusing them at my desk...) Maybe we're drawing different lines on what are "combat spells".

3. I don't think we're insisting that the PC shugenja spend most of their time blessing newborns and presiding over funerals... just that we get more than the seeming "and shugenja do that stuff too, over there, mainly off screen, here's some vague detail". I think there's a lot of plot-hook and RP potential sitting there quietly in the corner when it comes to all those other, non-blasty, non-buffy things.

4a. That's kinda the problem -- if the people of Rokugan worship more than the elemental kami, and the Shugenja are ONLY elemental priests, then who communes with and conducts the rituals and ceremonies in honor off the Fortunes, the "big K" Kami, etc?

4b. Also a problem, for me, is that too much of the supernatural and spiritual in L5R has been pidgeon-holed into "elemental kami", "heaven or hell", or "unfathomably alien, dangerous, and beyond communicating with". This idea that only a handful of secretive organizations within a few clans have any ability to deal with ghosts or strange spirits... well, it just doesn't make any **** sense to me. It just doesn't seem to fit with the cultures and myths and folk tales and fictional works that inspired the setting.

Yeah, but Maho is also different in that you sacrifice your body and soul to cast it.

Why is that different in context of this discussion?

Because a fundamental element of balance is the COST you put to the power you give characters. If using magic turn you into a monster and means you lose your character before too long of using super-magic in massive amounts, then the characters who work magic that way are by their very nature far more limited (and balanced) than those who just sling magic around.

Actually, clever use of Importune and Negotiation, a Shugenja could change reality, depends on the GM mind you, and since most GM's don't want to even roleplay spirits, and just want to treat it as D&D magic... I rarely see it happening, but the mechanics exist that allow Shugenjas to make spells for pretty much anything the Kami can do.

And that can't really be balanced per se.

Courtiers have a similar problem, the setting supports them in being able to manipulate any person into a choice: Do what they want, or dishonor. But... if the GM or players don't want someone rolling dice to hamper their choices... it becomes moot. (There's also a good example in a book of a courtier raising someone to a fortune as a jibe against a shugenja ).

The problem with courtiers is that they're presented as being very able to manipulate, and some players (and fiction/setting authors) seem to take that as "courtiers can manipulate anyone into doing anyting and always set it up so they have no choice" -- they present "courtier skills" as a form of "social magic" that allows them to accomplish even the non-sensical and silly and setting-inappropriate.