The only reason why they where outraged when Spider became greeat Clan is because the Spider won and wasn´t defeated.

I can only truly speak for me, but I'm pretty sure it had a lot more to do with the fact that the Spider remained and continued to infiltrate the Empire, even after the Oracles/Iweko blatantly outed them as followers of Daigotsu/Fu Leng. The "Spider Project" should have been utterly finished as soon as the jig was up, but it wasn't finished. It continued to go on for many more years, and that simply strained credulity all the way to the breaking point for most people.

The only reason why they where outraged when Spider became greeat Clan is because the Spider won and wasn´t defeated.

I can only truly speak for me, but I'm pretty sure it had a lot more to do with the fact that the Spider remained and continued to infiltrate the Empire, even after the Oracles/Iweko blatantly outed them as followers of Daigotsu/Fu Leng. The "Spider Project" should have been utterly finished as soon as the jig was up, but it wasn't finished. It continued to go on for many more years, and that simply strained credulity all the way to the breaking point for most people.

You mean the concetion the empress never mentioned to the rest of the empire. The Spider where never find out to be servants of Daigotsu until he actually walked into the room at the end of the Destroyer war and wanted Great Clan status for them.

The Celestial Tournament was a turnoil moment for the Clan. They competed patronaged by the Unicorn Clan, sponsored by Fu Leng, with the acknowledgment of Tengoku 's representatives, the Voice of the Jade Sun and Obsidian Moon . ^[22] The winner, the Empress Iweko I , trascended to divine and gained truth about the Spider. The bases in the Shinomen Mori and the Ruined City were exposed to the Empire and chased by the new Shogun Moto Jin-sahn . In the other hand, she decided to do it secrecily, so the rest of the Empire was unaware of Spider's connection to Jigoku .

At least acording to the Wiki thats how it went. so while the empress knew the empire at whoel was unaware and the people who knew were told to say nothing.

So the problem that the Spider was a follower of Jigoku never cam to light and therefore the project never had the problem you describe.

I think, Tev, that I can speak with some certainty when I say this isn't a point you're going to carry because it runs counter to every human instinct for believing a story.

Heck, L5R itself seethes we examples of "because we said so" not being enough- we all suspend our disbelief to accept characters speaking to the spirits in all things to perform magical feats, yes. But there are limits to how far suspension of disbelief can go before it simply snaps.

Sadly, I run into this too often... "Because there's magic, anything goes" or "you accept this thing we know is impossible in the real world as part of the story, so therefore you have no grounds to complain about any other, more mundane issues in the story".

And yes -- "because I said so" is a terrible way to underpin the setting of a story. Yes, ultimately it all comes from the author's mind, but... there as to be more than whim.

I think, Tev, that I can speak with some certainty when I say this isn't a point you're going to carry because it runs counter to every human instinct for believing a story.

Heck, L5R itself seethes we examples of "because we said so" not being enough- we all suspend our disbelief to accept characters speaking to the spirits in all things to perform magical feats, yes. But there are limits to how far suspension of disbelief can go before it simply snaps.

Sadly, I run into this too often... "Because there's magic, anything goes" or "you accept this thing we know is impossible in the real world as part of the story, so therefore you have no grounds to complain about any other, more mundane issues in the story".

And yes -- "because I said so" is a terrible way to underpin the setting of a story. Yes, ultimately it all comes from the author's mind, but... there as to be more than whim.

Actually all that is necassryis that the stoy is enteraining and enagaging. There is really no need for realism . There is no need to put in physics or our thought about what is possible according to the real life and what is not.

There are no Atoms in the fictional settings so if you want that all moves like newton said all does it.

Magic is something that enables possibilities and nothing that shoudl restrict them. So yes when I have a setting with magi I except impossible things like people lifiting mountains with one hand, burning down countries allon,

seducing people into slaves with only moving a finger, shouting lightning from their hands etc.

Realism is something that is not helping the RPg gerne exspecially if it comes to fantas yor other settings with Magic in it cause Magic is the complete opposite of realism cause it is pure fantasy and the incarnation of nothing is impossible.

So as long as we have Mgic in this setting realsim should stay away from it.

I think, Tev, that I can speak with some certainty when I say this isn't a point you're going to carry because it runs counter to every human instinct for believing a story.

Heck, L5R itself seethes we examples of "because we said so" not being enough- we all suspend our disbelief to accept characters speaking to the spirits in all things to perform magical feats, yes. But there are limits to how far suspension of disbelief can go before it simply snaps.

Sadly, I run into this too often... "Because there's magic, anything goes" or "you accept this thing we know is impossible in the real world as part of the story, so therefore you have no grounds to complain about any other, more mundane issues in the story".

And yes -- "because I said so" is a terrible way to underpin the setting of a story. Yes, ultimately it all comes from the author's mind, but... there as to be more than whim.

Actually all that is necassryis that the stoy is enteraining and enagaging. There is really no need for realism . There is no need to put in physics or our thought about what is possible according to the real life and what is not.

There are no Atoms in the fictional settings so if you want that all moves like newton said all does it.

Magic is something that enables possibilities and nothing that shoudl restrict them. So yes when I have a setting with magi I except impossible things like people lifiting mountains with one hand, burning down countries allon,

seducing people into slaves with only moving a finger, shouting lightning from their hands etc.

Realism is something that is not helping the RPg gerne exspecially if it comes to fantas yor other settings with Magic in it cause Magic is the complete opposite of realism cause it is pure fantasy and the incarnation of nothing is impossible.

So as long as we have Mgic in this setting realsim should stay away from it.

So, as was noted -- you are a proponent of "anything goes, no reasons needed", or "the rule of cool".

Whatever. Discussion over.

So, as was noted -- you are a proponent of "anything goes, no reasons needed", or "the rule of cool".

Whatever. Discussion over.

I think you mean "I'm doing whatever I want, whenever I want, however I want."

Cause even magic, supernatural, and "the rule of cool" (or, in Mike Pondsmith's words "style over substance") have their own set of rules that preserve the suspension of disbelief and, within the game's world, preserve realism and help things make sense.

So, as was noted -- you are a proponent of "anything goes, no reasons needed", or "the rule of cool".

Whatever. Discussion over.

I think you mean "I'm doing whatever I want, whenever I want, however I want."

Cause even magic, supernatural, and "the rule of cool" (or, in Mike Pondsmith's words "style over substance") have their own set of rules that preserve the suspension of disbelief and, within the game's world, preserve realism and help things make sense.

Yeah but nothing of these rules are anything near soemthing you would title with REALISM caus they are not real. They are just rules which some people came up with to make for example magic working in their setting. What you call realism is actually not realism cause it

is used for rules that do not exsist cause the world to whcih they apply is not real. Yes that the fictional world stays intact and has certain rules to follow is important but within these frames people are free to move and make things they want cause they are not restricted by anything real like

for example physics. Exspecially not when people have magic to wield.

So for exmpla the rule in L5r is the Mgaic is conected to the Kami and you need to pray to them to cast it. With this knowlegde you can go and fly like superman, wield a mountain as a weapon strike down the wall with one strike etc. Cause it is totaly possible in a world where peole actually

did such things allready.

There is no need to hmm yeah lets look at this wall it is x meters thick out of a material of y and therfore your sowrd will break cause as soon as you bring in Magic it like yeah steel as if this would stop me.

Or other example it is not really easy to melt steel with fire but in a game with Magic like L5r this could be possible cuase you don´t know how hot magical fire burns and what kind of properties it has besides that is looks like fire.

Trying to bring real world things into the a fictional fanatsy world actuall creates more problems than it solves. So world consitency yes but based on the real world pls no.

Also trying to get rules that resemble real conversations is silly cause there is so much to take into account that the system you would make has to be afailure. Therefore the goal is not to make a realistic but a mechanicaly good system whcih ofcourse is a abstract and

more restricted one but actually makes clear how the social argumentation is resolved.

So yeah rules inside the setting yes. Rules that resemble reallsim no.

On the contrary, there is need to look at how thick it is. The more there is, the more you are demanding from the Kami when you ask them to break through the wall, and thus (possibly) the more reluctant they may be to accomplish the task.

On the contrary, there is need to look at how thick it is. The more there is, the more you are demanding from the Kami when you ask them to break through the wall, and thus (possibly) the more reluctant they may be to accomplish the task.

That is not a universal truth.Actually for most persons who did things like this the Kami did not became reluctant but even favored them or even better the elemental dragons transformed them into their Oracles. So not eveytimes people sue the Kami

for things like these it has aneagtive effext. I means lets look at Isawa for example who manged to imprison a God with the help of the Kami. There also where various other Shugenjas liek Kioso or Kaede which did many incredible things without the Kami

getting amd at them.

So yes they could become cecusant but they don´t have to and therefore this is up to the Gm and the player will if they want them to become recusant.

Speaking of which, I would love to see a new magic mechanic that better represents this "I use spirits to create spells" method.

In the homebrew setting my gaming group is using shugenjas can only cast seven spells (Banish, Commune, Compel, Empower, Sanctuary, Sense, and Summon), and all these spells are only good to interact with the spirits in some form. Each spirit has a certain number of supernatural spirit powers that can range from destructive energy beams to healing/reviving; if a shugenja wants to create a supernatural effect, then he must first get a suitable spirit (one that has a spirit power similar to the desired effect) with Sense/Summon, convince the spirit with commune/compel to use its spirit power in the way the shugenja wants (or borrow the power with Empower), then watch as the spirit performs the needed effect. Banish and Sanctuary are anti-spirit defense spells, useful if the shugenja is too trigger-happy with Compel (obviously, spirits don't like to be compelled).

While this might sound complicated (because it kinda' is), it is also more rewarding in terms of roleplaying experience - it really gives away what shugenjas do and the whole method severs as a good reminder that shugenjas are not wizards.

It is also very funny when the shugenja uses Summon to get a spirit, but forgets to specify the exact nature of the powers he wants on said spirit and he gets something hilarious like a spirit with Fear 10 (or he accidentally summons his own ancestor for extra awkwardness).

I don't understand (and never have) the idea that, because Shugenja are more like Priests than Wizards, that somehow means their spell casting style must be low-key and not flashy, or take many rounds to cast, or involve literally praying and begging the elements (entities who have sentience, but lack reason and personality, btw) to do them a favor and form a spell, or whatever else.

Shugenja as Priests is a description of their social role within Rokugani society, not a description of how they interact with the kami. The kami, as described in the lore and rulebook, simply respond to stimuli - it is why spells can be taught or written down on a scroll. The respect (and reverence, depending on shugenja tradition) shungeja show to the kami is based entirely on religious philosophy and tradition, not on the kami's desire to be asked politely; the kami don't have desires, per se, save those driven by their inherent nature - and those 'desires' are unchanging.

From a purely mechanical standpoint, shugenja are absolutely way more like a combination of Wizards and Sorcerers (in that they have to have an innate ability to communicate that cannot be taught, but the specifics of how to cast certain spells can be taught or shared among those with the gift) than they are like Priests or Clerics (who get their power from a willful divine source that may or may not grant them their spells on a whim).

The respect (and reverence, depending on shugenja tradition) shungeja show to the kami is based entirely on religious philosophy and tradition, not on the kami's desire to be asked politely; the kami don't have desires, per se.

The kami do have desires, and they can enforce said desires for an effect to take place (it mostly comes up with the Commune spell). Unfortunately, the system has to handwave this with the "prayers placate the kami" thing so that stuff makes sense. The whole Raises-for-better-effects is a distilled version of placating the kami, but the system doesn't expand on this other than "you pray extra hard " to avoid inconvenient questions.

I don't understand (and never have) the idea that, because Shugenja are more like Priests than Wizards, that somehow means their spell casting style must be low-key and not flashy, or take many rounds to cast, or involve literally praying and begging the elements (entities who have sentience, but lack reason and personality, btw) to do them a favor and form a spell, or whatever else.

Shugenja as Priests is a description of their social role within Rokugani society, not a description of how they interact with the kami. The kami, as described in the lore and rulebook, simply respond to stimuli - it is why spells can be taught or written down on a scroll. The respect (and reverence, depending on shugenja tradition) shungeja show to the kami is based entirely on religious philosophy and tradition, not on the kami's desire to be asked politely; the kami don't have desires, per se, save those driven by their inherent nature - and those 'desires' are unchanging.

From a purely mechanical standpoint, shugenja are absolutely way more like a combination of Wizards and Sorcerers (in that they have to have an innate ability to communicate that cannot be taught, but the specifics of how to cast certain spells can be taught or shared among those with the gift) than they are like Priests or Clerics (who get their power from a willful divine source that may or may not grant them their spells on a whim).

At least for me, I'm not saying that "...their spell casting style must be low-key and not flashy, or take many rounds to cast, or involve literally praying and begging the elements to do them a favor and form a spell..."

What I do want:

1. SOMETHING that makes their spellcasting mechanically fit the "fluff" of how their magic works -- even if that something takes place outside of the heated moments of combat. They don't call upon the elements -- they call upon intermediary entities -- and I'd like the system to reflect that a bit more clearly.

2. Within their spellcasting, more attention to things that aren't about stuff blowing up or being blown away. And no, not the "bless more crops today" strawman.

3. Within their role in society as priests, more on what they do other than just being spell-casters.

4. Clarity -- are they elemental priests, dealing only with elemental spirits? Or is it broader? If the latter, then include more about things like dealing with the angry spirits in a place that are causing problems, and by that I don't mean "force them into combat, or exorcise them." Of course, this would require dialing back the way that L5R has seemed at times eager to cram all spiritual issues into the "heaven versus hell eternal conflict" thing that's another more-western element in their setting that they keep trying to remind us is Asian, Asian, and more Asian.

Heck, L5R itself seethes we examples of "because we said so" not being enough- we all suspend our disbelief to accept characters speaking to the spirits in all things to perform magical feats, yes. But there are limits to how far suspension of disbelief can go before it simply snaps.

Exhibit A: the polarized reactions to the Spider being made a Great Clan.

Or Togashi getting forcibly ziplined back to Tengoku while Shiba and Shinjo keep doing what they do.

Or the entire New Moto Curse debacle.

Or Daigotsu's ascension to somehow having a control over Jigoku Fu Leng and Kali-Ma seemed incapable of.

And that's just confining myself to relatively recent "magical" issues. Note that in each of these cases, efforts were made to sandpaper off the rough edges later, generally too late to salvage the situation, .

Saying "they have magic, therefore it doesn't have to make logical sense" is a one-way ticket to the last stop on Dead End Railways.

Now, for a counter-example of setting fiat handled a bit better:

The Army of Dark Fire, hopped up on Dark Oracle mojo, storm into Rokugan and are almost uniformly magic-resistant. Why? "Because an entity with an intrinsic connection to the Elements Rokugani magic interacts with wants them to be." Which was good enough (at least for me) because it adhered to a species of logic.

What I do want:

1. SOMETHING that makes their spellcasting mechanically fit the "fluff" of how their magic works -- even if that something takes place outside of the heated moments of combat. They don't call upon the elements -- they call upon intermediary entities -- and I'd like the system to reflect that a bit more clearly.

2. Within their spellcasting, more attention to things that aren't about stuff blowing up or being blown away. And no, not the "bless more crops today" strawman.

3. Within their role in society as priests, more on what they do other than just being spell-casters.

4. Clarity -- are they elemental priests, dealing only with elemental spirits? Or is it broader? If the latter, then include more about things like dealing with the angry spirits in a place that are causing problems, and by that I don't mean "force them into combat, or exorcise them." Of course, this would require dialing back the way that L5R has seemed at times eager to cram all spiritual issues into the "heaven versus hell eternal conflict" thing that's another more-western element in their setting that they keep trying to remind us is Asian, Asian, and more Asian.

1- The elements are the kami. They aren't intermediary entities at all, but are the elemental entities themselves. A rock is made up entirely of Earth kami. A gust of wind is Air kami. Etc.

2- There are tons of spells that have nothing to do with combat. Fire has by far the most combat spells, and even that is only half the list of spell options for the element.

3- The role of Shugenja in daily life is very well defined. The problem is that it's not very interesting for a Player Character. Leading religious ceremonies, offering spiritual advice, and communing with the kami for no other reason than communing with the kami doesn't exactly make for a very interesting game story.

4- Define, "dealing with." Shugenja put more emphasis on learning spiritual lore than any other samurai/monk/whoever in the empire, but their physical talent is only related to the elemental kami. So while a Shugenja might know plenty of things about other spiritual creatures/realms/phenomena etc. they aren't necessarily any better equipped to interact with those things. (This is where School techniques make up for where spellcasting fails, and you get schools like the Toritaka, Kitsu, Kitsune, etc. who are better equipped to deal with certain things outside of the realm of "just the elements.")

Or Togashi getting forcibly ziplined back to Tengoku while Shiba and Shinjo keep doing what they do.

Or the entire New Moto Curse debacle.

Or Daigotsu's ascension to somehow having a control over Jigoku Fu Leng and Kali-Ma seemed incapable of.

at least for the Daigotsu thing the explanation is there. Neither Kali Ma nor Fu Leng had the power to control Jigoku. They both where very powerful but not powerful enough to do this.

Daigotsu is different here. He allready was powerful enough to dominate the Shadowlands and only secodn to Fulend. When the Destroyer War goit its grande final he absorbed boith the

power of Fuleng and the Power of Kali ma and therefore has now both powers in him. The combined power of both enteties combined with his own makes him able to control the realm which

is logical cause he has more power than both enteties had.

So no probem here.

For Togahsi it was not the Problem that he was in the mortal realm but the specific interaction with Satsu which was judged illegal by seven Fortunes one of the established Rokugani supernatural Forces.

Therefore there is a explanation for it which actually makes sense and is reasoned with a cause from inside the setting.

The Moto curse was reasoned with astrological divination which aslo is a valid way to look into the future and peole inside of rokugan actually accept things told to them by this form as truth.

Therefore there is an explanation for the New Moto curse whcih is the astrology sayed you are cursed.

So while the explanations could be better they are there and fit the setting. People can dislike them but they are explained with things form the setting and are therefore no problem

when it comes to the logic of the setting.

Astrology doesn't EXPLAIN the curse, astrology REVEALED the curse (eg, it showed that the curse existed).

So no, Astrology isn't an explanation here.

I'm starting to see this as an unsolveable problem.

Priests are boring. Blessing crops, weddings, etc, all the social roles a priest has is generally boring. This is why Shugenja players rarely engage in those activities, just like Monk players rarely hang out in monasteries.

What you want is a shugenja that can act WITH the party in most scenes. We already have problems when a spirit/ghost shows up... and only one player can do anything. Or combat, and the social characters have to sit it out.

But... if the shugenja can deal damage, and buff in social situations AND ask the kami about things going bump in the night AND at high levels form volcanic islands while killing thousands of soldiers... well bushi players are like "Where is my Kurosawa samurai drama"

So... the FFG solution could be very simple: Divide the core books by theme.

Winter Court: Artisans, Courtiers, Duelists, Yojimbo and Artisans. (Rules to make basic Shugenja NPCs ), Emerald Magistrate schools/alt paths.

Summer War: Bushi, Crab, the Wall, Naga, Ratlings, Shadowlands, Mass Battles, etc.

Autumn Jade: Jade Magistrate schools/alt paths, Shugenja (of investigation leanings), Kitsuki and Shiba schools, Maho, and Blood cultists etc.

I think this would solve the problem. Bushi players that don't want magic, or want simple priests can have that by not getting or allowing the Shugenja core book.

^^Wait, wasn't the "new" Motor Curse in fact the "old" Moto Curse? I always thought that the Lords of Death pulled a Daigotsu/Taint maneuver and instead of lifting the curse, they just suppressed it. I mean, those guys are not exactly the paragons of trust, so to speak. Wasn't this the reason Shinjo reincarnated as a Moto? I can faintly remember something about Shinjo coming back to purge the Moto Death Cult in the same way she had purged the Kolat.

So... the FFG solution could be very simple: Divide the core books by theme.

[...]

I think this would solve the problem. Bushi players that don't want magic, or want simple priests can have that by not getting or allowing the Shugenja core book.

I see the point you're making, but I really, really disagree. I found this an awkward and weird enough solution (or "marketing ploy," potayto potahto ) for Star Wars, but at least that's a very big galaxy with a lot of different, often widely geographically separated things going on in the background (though you'd still need all three books to tell any of the stories that made people care about the setting in the first place).

For L5R, though, the things you propose separating are all integral to the setting and each other, and in fact that's a big part of its appeal for many people. All bushi, not just 100% dedicated duelists (who in fact aren't that common anyway), need to be able to participate and acquit themselves reasonably well in courtly settings--culture is after all what makes them Rokugani and not barbarian. Courtiers who can't deal with the martial and in some way make themselves useful to it (whether or not that involves stabbing things) aren't really proper samurai either. Both those points go for shugenja as well, of course. And magic and the spiritual touches everything and everyone, because the search for enlightenment and the pantheistic/animistic/ancestor-worshipping religion is universally practiced (within Rokugan) and real, with real effects on everybody. I suspect this critter can't be carved up as you suggest without killing the patient. (Also, good luck to both GMs and PCs when the Wall and the Shadowlands are in one book but rules for maho and for PC shugenja with Jade magic are in a different one... )

So... the FFG solution could be very simple: Divide the core books by theme.

[...]

I think this would solve the problem. Bushi players that don't want magic, or want simple priests can have that by not getting or allowing the Shugenja core book.

I see the point you're making, but I really, really disagree. I found this an awkward and weird enough solution (or "marketing ploy," potayto potahto ) for Star Wars, but at least that's a very big galaxy with a lot of different, often widely geographically separated things going on in the background (though you'd still need all three books to tell any of the stories that made people care about the setting in the first place).

For L5R, though, the things you propose separating are all integral to the setting and each other, and in fact that's a big part of its appeal for many people. All bushi, not just 100% dedicated duelists (who in fact aren't that common anyway), need to be able to participate and acquit themselves reasonably well in courtly settings--culture is after all what makes them Rokugani and not barbarian. Courtiers who can't deal with the martial and in some way make themselves useful to it (whether or not that involves stabbing things) aren't really proper samurai either. Both those points go for shugenja as well, of course. And magic and the spiritual touches everything and everyone, because the search for enlightenment and the pantheistic/animistic/ancestor-worshipping religion is universally practiced (within Rokugan) and real, with real effects on everybody. I suspect this critter can't be carved up as you suggest without killing the patient. (Also, good luck to both GMs and PCs when the Wall and the Shadowlands are in one book but rules for maho and for PC shugenja with Jade magic are in a different one... )

I agree with Locust Shell on this one.

Also, it's not that shugenja can participate in all the arenas of the game, but that they outshine the others. If the answer is bring up everyone else, than I'm all for it. Imagine if Matsu Berserkers had an aura that did damage to everyone nearby based on the difference between that characters aura and the Matsu's? Crazy powerful, yet still fitting within general Lion clan themes. Or if the Bayushi Courtier turned whatever courts they attended into Den's of Iniquity simply by the subtle influence they exude? Again, super powerful and fits clan themes. I can throw all sorts of examples out like this. The only thing holding it back is the idea that anything clearly not realistic (ugh.) clearly has to be a magic effect.

I can't even make any sort of mechanically effective leader, because the only thing that can reliably give stat bumps to people is a shugenja.

Well, if you want to stay true to the setting, shugenja will eventually outshine everyone else. All the suggestions I have so far seen won't work.

Restricting shugenja so that the GM has to make unique encounters where they do stuff and the rest of the party can't, and then twiddle their thumbs when the regular players do their stuff isn't fun.

Adding a bunch of rolls or checklists for a player to forget, to somehow "balance" their versatility is also... not fun.

And a large vocal group would rather just do away with the kami altogether and focus on samurai drama.

But you are right the balance is off. It should be:

One Book that is the standard court setting with courtiers and bushi. There wouldn't be rules for Maho or Shadowlands, or Magic as magic isn't allowed in court. This would be for games that focus on Samurai drama.

One Book would be about the magistrates, and include maho, the taint, Shadowlands, and the shugenja. This would be for games that focus on the Horror aspect of L5R.

One Book would be about War, and Mass Battles, Sieges. This would be for games that focus on being a samurai officer in an army, so the schools for bushi and shugenja would reflect that, and spell casting would be completely reworked into a Mass Battle system for army wide Spellcasting.

And one book should focus on the economics of trying to make people who just want to experience the full rokugan buy three books so they have the full game.

Any solution is going to leave unhappy players, but this one is no better in that regard, and may well be worse.

My view: you need to figure out what roles the shugenja are to play in the party, and build spells and abilities to they fit into that role. Different schools of shugenja may favor different roles, sure, but they should be comparable to bushi archetyle (or, as the case may be, courtier archetype) playing similar roles.

That doesn't mean you need supernatural abilities for samurai. That may means you need to beef up the lethality of samurai swords (which is not out of place in a Kurosawa style samurai epic. Single-hit and single-shot kills from a sword or bow are a cinematographic norm here), or bump down the lethality of certain shugenja spells.

Because, yes, the lethality potential of shug spells is probably often overvalued. A little fire or heat - say a few seconds being in a fire - is likely to result in minor to middling burns. Not pleasant, painful, and potentially dangerous, but low on the life-threatening injuries scale. It takes prolonged exposure and/or (And more usually AND) extreme intensity to get to the really nasty second and third degree burns that have real lethality potential and that begin to compare with a katana slice across the belly (to say nothing of a beheading strike, which is above even those burns in sheer lethality).That ball of fire the shugenja form in his hand and hurl shouldn't do much more than minor wounds, but we as a western society are stuck on the awesome idea of OMG HURLING FIRE, and because it *looks* awesome we want it to have an awesome effect.

(Explosions and the like tend to be lethal not because of the flames, but because of the pressure/shock wave (if big enough) and shrapnel).

That doesn't mean you need supernatural abilities for samurai. That may means you need to beef up the lethality of samurai swords (which is not out of place in a Kurosawa style samurai epic. Single-hit and single-shot kills from a sword or bow are a cinematographic norm here), or bump down the lethality of certain shugenja spells (yeah, walking through a wall of fire is painful as all heck, but generally speaking, *in realism terms*, it's often easier to survive being surrounded by fire for a few seconds, let alone being hit by a ball of fire, than having your belly or throat opened by a meter of sharp steel. Even with explosions, it's usually the shrapnel (and, for large enough explosions, the shock wave), not the flames that are the biggest source of casualties.

And I really hoped that after more than 2 pages of talk about it we could leave the realsim where it belongs, in the real world, and go just don´t try to field arguments here. The Magical fire is not natrual fire, It does not have the same propoerties and can be far more leathal than our fire cause it is actual magic and not fire.

I'm not saying that we need to change it because of realism. I'm saying we need to change it because of game balance,

The question of realism is not "This is how real fire is, and that's how it should be in the game too." The question is "This is how damaging fire should be to be balanced with other options in the game. Does this result in the fire being too weak from a realism stand point?"

But ultimately, the point is, if a samurai school exist to fill a particular role in the game, and a shugenja build can also fill that role, they should be about equally good (or at least in the same ball park) at filling that role. The corollary is, as this IS in fact a game about samurai (samurai in a supernatural setting, but samurai nonetheless) most roles in the game should have samurai archetypes that can fill them.

Reducing samurai to "people who protect the shugenja while they do all the actual work" is not a sane design approach given the nature of the game. Samurai fantasy is, fundamentally, still about Samurai.