You could run a Decoy Vader if you wanted PS 9 for the Phantom.

Seems pretty good. If you ran Advanced Sensors you could PtL and then green maneuver, although PtL is once per round.

Fire, cloak, PtL out of arc.

You would brake the game. A singularity would appear and you'd have to use Taychons(sp?) to close it.
Since, Star Trek is inferior to Star Wars, you would doom the world.

Same goes for Stygium, if you're brave enough to use one on the named pilots.

Decloak, free evade, PtL action, green maneuver. Basically Advanced sensors included in the package.

Advanced Sensors is fairly irrelevant, since when you use PTL you'll be stressed until you finish executing a green maneuver.

The reason you don't see it is that, since the Phantom lacks boost, the utility of your extra action is mostly defensive. And that means it's competing with VI, which (setting aside Decoy shenanigans) is such a cheap and straightforward way to get your bonus dice earlier in the round.

Advanced Sensors is fairly irrelevant, since when you use PTL you'll be stressed until you finish executing a green maneuver.

The reason you don't see it is that, since the Phantom lacks boost, the utility of your extra action is mostly defensive. And that means it's competing with VI, which (setting aside Decoy shenanigans) is such a cheap and straightforward way to get your bonus dice earlier in the round.

I was referring to the fact that you get to Barrel roll before movement. It also doesn't matter whether you bump or not, you will still get at least evade + one action. But this is purely for SPA, and I have not used it many times on named pilots, I am well aware it is less efficient than ACD.

because in the next turn, you can't do a 1-turn, which is still, post Phantom change, the single most important maneuver on that dial. Well, you could, but you're still stressed and then can't take another action or trigger ACD, which are both necessities.

Advanced Sensors is fairly irrelevant, since when you use PTL you'll be stressed until you finish executing a green maneuver.

The reason you don't see it is that, since the Phantom lacks boost, the utility of your extra action is mostly defensive. And that means it's competing with VI, which (setting aside Decoy shenanigans) is such a cheap and straightforward way to get your bonus dice earlier in the round.

It's early, I have a head cold and I'm lacking coffee. Why would a defensive action compete with VI in the above example? And why would a defensive action on a Phantom be bad?

My experience with Phantoms is if they can't cloak to help their defense, they're dead. Granted, I've only been playing for a couple of months. I do enjoy flying Phantoms, though.

The greens on the dial are too limited, IMHO, to warrant the risk. A predictable Phantom is a dead one. Oh, and something about those green dice being reliably unreliable...

Advanced Sensors is fairly irrelevant, since when you use PTL you'll be stressed until you finish executing a green maneuver.

The reason you don't see it is that, since the Phantom lacks boost, the utility of your extra action is mostly defensive. And that means it's competing with VI, which (setting aside Decoy shenanigans) is such a cheap and straightforward way to get your bonus dice earlier in the round.

It's early, I have a head cold and I'm lacking coffee. Why would a defensive action compete with VI in the above example? And why would a defensive action on a Phantom be bad?

The defensive action isn't a bad thing. Against a single attack, an evade action is actually more effective than the cloak.

But PTL sits in the same slot as VI. And that means you have cloak + action competing against cloaking earlier in the round--in an environment where there are lots of threats at PS7+. So, for instance, think about Whisper fighting against Scum Boba Fett: with PTL, you're cloaking after Fett's attack. You get two bonus dice and an extra defensive action, but it doesn't do you a whole lot of good after you've already been attacked. With VI, you cloak before Fett's attack instead.

As ParaGoomba notes, you can get around that by running Vader + Decoy. But now you have two expensive ships and a range 2 leash in order to support a single trick; it's a good trick, of course, but it's unreliable and extraordinarily expensive.

Advanced Sensors is fairly irrelevant, since when you use PTL you'll be stressed until you finish executing a green maneuver.

The reason you don't see it is that, since the Phantom lacks boost, the utility of your extra action is mostly defensive. And that means it's competing with VI, which (setting aside Decoy shenanigans) is such a cheap and straightforward way to get your bonus dice earlier in the round.

It's early, I have a head cold and I'm lacking coffee. Why would a defensive action compete with VI in the above example? And why would a defensive action on a Phantom be bad?

The Phantom's survival is entirely dependent on its ability to shoot first and take the free cloak action via Advanced Cloaking Device. It's not that defensive actions are bad; Whisper's action of choice is usually an Evade due to her pilot ability. It's rather that, with low PS, your defensive actions aren't going to matter because 2 green dice + an Evade token still leaves you with a good chance of taking damage.

Also, in Vorpal's example, it's that PtL necessitates a Phantom taking a defensive action -- you aren't going to take a PtL Cloak action with a Phantom. This means that the ability to take an extra action is kind of wasted, making VI the more viable Elite Pilot Talent. I guess you could Barrel Roll if you really wanted to, but that shouldn't be used if you planned your decloak correctly.

Ok, I see. I was just thinking about the build and not where it stood on the field vs higher PS pilots. I need more coffee and a decongestant.

Ok, I see. I was just thinking about the build and not where it stood on the field vs higher PS pilots. I need more coffee and a decongestant.

I can thoroughly sympathize. Hope you feel better soon!

Yeah, the trouble is in the greens on the dial.

I've played around with

Echo + ptl + engine + advanced sensors + Intel agent. You don't cloak as often, but that ship is an endgame beast.

I've got to try looking at the tie mk2 ptl echo....

While we're at it, stealth, sensor jammer marajade lone wolf echo is also a blast.

The thing has a TIE Fighter dial with no 5 straight. It's no Intercepto/A-Wing dial but it's still decent for decloaks. Remember, you don't have to do this every round.

The range 2 Decoy leash shouldn't be /too/ much of an issue. I've used a build based around Squad Leader and it was usually pretty easy to get it. Perhaps Squad Leader Vader with VI Echo?

If you Decoy Vader, he will be at a lower PS than the Phantom and can fire after the Phantom has stripped all the tokens and shields to get ATC crits through. Vader is an expensive way to do this, but triple ace lists tend to have Vader anyways with a one point EPT so it really only costs a point. Well, 3 because PtL is more expensive than VI.

There is always running VI on Vader and Decoy on the Phantom to go to 11. But that doesn't get you extra shenanigans, just more ACD cloak insurance.

The thing has a TIE Fighter dial with no 5 straight. It's no Intercepto/A-Wing dial but it's still decent for decloaks. Remember, you don't have to do this every round.

The range 2 Decoy leash shouldn't be /too/ much of an issue. I've used a build based around Squad Leader and it was usually pretty easy to get it. Perhaps Squad Leader Vader with VI Echo?

If you Decoy Vader, he will be at a lower PS than the Phantom and can fire after the Phantom has stripped all the tokens and shields to get ATC crits through. Vader is an expensive way to do this, but triple ace lists tend to have Vader anyways with a one point EPT so it really only costs a point. Well, 3 because PtL is more expensive than VI.

There is always running VI on Vader and Decoy on the Phantom to go to 11. But that doesn't get you extra shenanigans, just more ACD cloak insurance.

The other problem, I suppose, is that while this all works, it only does so as long as both ships are still alive. As soon as one goes down, you not only lose it, you also lose a significant chunk of what makes the other one tick.

Plus this doesn't really accomplish anything that we can't make the ships do without making them rely on each other. Why complicate matters?

Plus this doesn't really accomplish anything that we can't make the ships do without making them rely on each other. Why complicate matters?

Decoy does let you get a PS 11 Phantom (in the combat phase).

I tried the decoy trick for awhile on Vader... It was brilliant while it lasted. You just had to make sure the opposing PS 9+ died before Vader did. search the squad list for for "echoes of Vader's past" for prior discussions.

The thing has a TIE Fighter dial with no 5 straight. It's no Intercepto/A-Wing dial but it's still decent for decloaks. Remember, you don't have to do this every round.

The range 2 Decoy leash shouldn't be /too/ much of an issue. I've used a build based around Squad Leader and it was usually pretty easy to get it. Perhaps Squad Leader Vader with VI Echo?

If you Decoy Vader, he will be at a lower PS than the Phantom and can fire after the Phantom has stripped all the tokens and shields to get ATC crits through. Vader is an expensive way to do this, but triple ace lists tend to have Vader anyways with a one point EPT so it really only costs a point. Well, 3 because PtL is more expensive than VI.

There is always running VI on Vader and Decoy on the Phantom to go to 11. But that doesn't get you extra shenanigans, just more ACD cloak insurance.

The other problem, I suppose, is that while this all works, it only does so as long as both ships are still alive. As soon as one goes down, you not only lose it, you also lose a significant chunk of what makes the other one tick.

Plus this doesn't really accomplish anything that we can't make the ships do without making them rely on each other. Why complicate matters?

I have this thing for weird shenanigans, so Turr Phennir in a phantom appeals to me and cards like R7 and Intel Agent and Decoy appeal to me. What originally gave me the idea was thinking about if Whisper /really/ needed VI and what EPT would be better in its place if you went without VI.

I also have to face the typical auto include builds of ships like Whisper and Soontir constantly, so by the time I feel like playing them myself I'm already bored to death of them. The only pre-nerf phantom build I played was 86 double phantom because of the 14 point initiative bid gimmick. The few times I've played Soontir it's has usually been in a 79 point build with Whisper.

I acknowledge that half of it is because I just want to fly something different. The other half is because it genuinely doesn't sound half bad.

Yeah, the trouble is in the greens on the dial.

I've played around with

Echo + ptl + engine + advanced sensors + Intel agent. You don't cloak as often, but that ship is an endgame beast.

I've got to try looking at the tie mk2 ptl echo....

While we're at it, stealth, sensor jammer marajade lone wolf echo is also a blast.

My current favorite Echo is with LW, ACD, Rec Spec, SJ. It's possibly the hardest ship to hit in the game, especially with support from palpatine!

Edit: dang auto correct

Also, with regards to Decoy Echo:

The issue I see with pairing her with Vader is that the two ships fundamentally fly differently. It's hard to be unpredictable with Echo, while remaining at range 2 to Vader, while getting shots with both ships.

IMO, the best way to use Decoy Echo is when paired with VI Chiraneau. Since RAC has the turret, you can be more unpredictable with Echo while still getting shots with both ships. I flew this combo to a second place in regionals.

Ok, I see. I was just thinking about the build and not where it stood on the field vs higher PS pilots. I need more coffee and a decongestant.

I can thoroughly sympathize. Hope you feel better soon!

Second pot of coffee is brewing and I'm about to steam my head in the shower. These NE Ohio weather changes are getting harder to handle the older I get.

Put Yorr in play and everything is possible, I've played against Yorr, Soontir, Vader EU + PTL and it's quite amazing...

Good idea. You run Vader with Decoy and ATC, Echo with PtL, ACD, FCS, and Gunner with Captain Yorr.

Echo PtL's, no prob. Vader K-Turns? Do 2 actions anyways buddy.