I'm favouring a 3-ship build now:

Fel PTL RGP Targeting Computer AT

Whisper VI FCS ACD Recon Spec

Colzet Title Autocorrector

I've been fiddling with something similar, only with Epsilon Leader in the Colzet slot as Rebel Captive insurance. Although I've got a nagging feeling that having a TIE/FO as the 3rd member of the squad means that Whisper kind of has to run FCS rather than Sensor Jammer to keep the damage level up, which isn't ideal against TLTs.

I have also noticed this. SJ lets Whisper hang around longer, but getting a 4 die reroll allows you to bring the pain. I don't know which is better for me.

Oooh that's heartening. I just tried it against a 4 TLT.

I couldn't nail the approach fast enough and at range 3, it got smashed.

Good tips, thanks guys.

You probably don't want to approach them head on and also before other of your ships are also in range.

Have the Phantom run along the edge out of range and approach the TLT from the sides or behind after you have slow rolled some of your other ships head on.

The best timing to zoom in with the phantom is when they will have to turn eventually to avoid asteroids or your other ships.

I'm favouring a 3-ship build now:

Fel PTL RGP Targeting Computer AT

Whisper VI FCS ACD Recon Spec

Colzet Title Autocorrector

I have issues trying to close into range fast, might be just out of practice

The reason for this style of build is that...I like Phantoms

Fel is there to help with turret builds (performing very well)

Colzet because I can't think of a better way to spend 23 points

Wouldn't Colzet synergize better with FCD instead of Autocorrector?

I've enjoyed the generics lately as well. I ran this list a few times, and it worked great against the 1 opponent who ran TLTs

Shadow, FCS, Intel agent, SPA

Shadow, FCS, Intel agent, SPA

Zeta Ace, PtL

Night Beast

All the 2 template BRs are fun, Night Beast really just filler because it makes them all PS5 and satisfies my need to have symmetry

Soontir + Whisper do not belong in the same list. While both are great ships one wants initiative and one does not. They are counterproductive to each other.

Oh but they do. Fat Han hasn't been seen in quite awhile, and that means any other PS9+ thats regularly played has a regular firing arc. Rarely does anyone put VI on Chirpy. In almost every situation you give the initiative away. You can still arcdodge with Whisper, fire, and cloak up before those pesky ps8 brobots fire back! The most threatening situation to Whisper now is Torkhil, besides green dice of course.

Here's something I want to try

phantoms and int agents are like bread and butter

especially generic phantoms who want to know when it's safe to focus up for a shot, when it's not getting a shot so it can cloak, when it can roll to dodge or block (and not get shot)...

I've played against Phantoms lately and I still HATE them. I feel like they ruin the game more than any other ship. This is even after the nerf. Why? Because you have to take hard counters to it or you lose*. That * is there that if you have a decent Phantom player who doesn't land on rocks, bump on his own, or act like a muppet. In other words, there are things that can beat the Phantom, but there are many things that just can't. I took a 4 generic X-wing list against one. Unless he makes a mistake, you just can't win. I feel that with almost any list, if you fly 4 generic X-wings (with Integrated Astromech) and you fly well enough, you have a decent chance of winning. With Phantoms, you need to have their hard counters or you lose. Yes....there are counters. I'm not saying they are unbeatable. It's just that you have to have one of those counters or you can't win. No other ship in the game really has that issue.

I also find that more than any other ship, there are often games if you make one mistake, it's game over. The Phantom has a harsh edge to the game that stifles variety.

I took a 4 generic X-wing list against one.

to be absolutely fair, taking 4 generic X-wings is more like hard countering yourself than the phantoms doing anything to you

stiff ships without any added maneuverability are of course going to be done in by nippy, nimble ships unless the opponent **** up. That is simply the result of flying any ship more maneuverable than an X, which is practically everything

Now, if it were 3 generics and BB-8 + PTL Wedge...might've been a different story

having both played and played against phantoms, I can honestly say "they're fine." For every time whisper's dominated, she's been eviscerated by Bossk or something similar. you just can't trust green dice.

against Whisper, well the one time someone brought her post nerf I had the pleasure of eviscerating her with Redline Cluster missiles

apart from hard synergy with uncle palpy, she's not too bad. She's the glass cannon she was supposed to be, only without the utter bull, consequence free arc-dodging from pre-errata

personally, I will not continue to use her. While she's more than capable of utterly annihilating TLTs (without jammies, she just kills them faster), I must remain ever vigilent for the true scourge of X-wing, the loathsome PWTs which still hard counter the crap out of her (esp RC cheri)

so, I take Redline instead

It wasn't an issue about repositioning. It was an issue about PS. If you don't have a high PS pilot, bomb, turret, or 4 red die attack, you don't stand a chance.

4 Generic X-wings with Integrated Astromechs should be a decent build that can win against anything. I think that it can, if played well, win against any other list that is also well played. If you design a game where something like 4 generic X-wings can't win then there is an issue, in my humble opinion.

I think it's the same if you took 4 generic B-wings, 4 generic A-wings, 4 generic Tie Advanced, or 4 generic Tie Interceptors.

I dunno, I think it's a neat little 3ATK ship that's going to be pretty potent but the lack of generic pilots is going to be the only thing that hinders its relevance. Will have to wait and see what the pilot abilities and costs are! If it's the cheapest way to get a 3ATK ship on the board for the Rebels it will be popping up a lot, almost regardless of the upgrade bar.

Assuming that it's a decent price, it'll make a nice alternative to the HWK.

It wasn't an issue about repositioning. It was an issue about PS. If you don't have a high PS pilot, bomb, turret, or 4 red die attack, you don't stand a chance.

4 Generic X-wings with Integrated Astromechs should be a decent build that can win against anything. I think that it can, if played well, win against any other list that is also well played. If you design a game where something like 4 generic X-wings can't win then there is an issue, in my humble opinion.

I think it's the same if you took 4 generic B-wings, 4 generic A-wings, 4 generic Tie Advanced, or 4 generic Tie Interceptors.

it's an issue then, because imo 4 generic x-wings can't win against a lot of things

lack of re-positioning is crippling regardless of pilot skill

besides, what would you ever take on four generic Xs that could be more appealing than 3 Xs (1 point astro + integrated) and BB-8 wedge?

the rookies provide some "bulk"(ish, still a bit shatter-prone) and firepower; Wedge provides late game and anti-ace tech aided by BB-8 and PTL giving re-positioning and full offensive mods

stacking the same of anything in a list without any added variety is just leaning into being hard-countered by something that doesn't care about what you bring.

Run four B-wings into adv homing swarm? bad time.

Run 4 generic A-wings or Advance into aggressors? bad time.

Tie Swarm into Dash? bad time.

Run phantoms into PWT? bad time.

and this isn't bad match-ups as in "auto-lose" but simply that the opponent is given far more tools to outplay you with. I.e, it's not like running a bunch of infantry with automatic weapons into the threads of heavy tanks as they advance oblivious to your pathetic attempts to harm them with small-arms fire; it's just that they're more maneuverable and can use that to their advantage. That's not phantom unique, everything from Fat Han to Dash to Aggressors to interceptors to A-wings etc. will run circles around 4 generic Xs

variety within the squad itself is essential to avoid or mitigating the inevitability of bad match-ups, of which X-wings have a lot of simply because they're not terribly great ships (even after integrated). They're still just lumps of stats without boost/roll/cloak/SLAM or anything beyond move + focus or TL.

fortunately, the ship itself now has the option to overcome its own bad matchups thanks to integrated making all pilots more viable and BB-8 giving it some much needed maneuverability without excessive cost (looking at you, EU )

not taking advantage of it is only hurting yourself

Stating that phantom's are still dumb and don't belong because you lose with 4 generic Xs is probably the most irrational thing I've heard on these forums since I first heard the word "autolose"

I'd like to address your post first. To me, a balanced game is a game that is...balanced. A game where almost anything that you can get within the points system is a valid list. Some lists have a hard time against others and this is the nature of the game. To me, I think that a list of 4 generics ANYTHING should be able to win against just about anything in the game. Is that a "dumb" concept? If so, then what is a valid game?

Also, I stated that it would be the same if you fly with 4 generic ANYTHING. Not just X-wings. I've found that 4 generic anythings don't really have a chance against a decent Phantom player.

it's an issue then, because imo 4 generic x-wings can't win against a lot of things

lack of re-positioning is crippling regardless of pilot skill

besides, what would you ever take on four generic Xs that could be more appealing than 3 Xs (1 point astro + integrated) and BB-8 wedge?

the rookies provide some "bulk"(ish, still a bit shatter-prone) and firepower; Wedge provides late game and anti-ace tech aided by BB-8 and PTL giving re-positioning and full offensive mods

stacking the same of anything in a list without any added variety is just leaning into being hard-countered by something that doesn't care about what you bring.

Run four B-wings into adv homing swarm? bad time.

Run 4 generic A-wings or Advance into aggressors? bad time.

Tie Swarm into Dash? bad time.

Run phantoms into PWT? bad time.

and this isn't bad match-ups as in "auto-lose" but simply that the opponent is given far more tools to outplay you with. I.e, it's not like running a bunch of infantry with automatic weapons into the threads of heavy tanks as they advance oblivious to your pathetic attempts to harm them with small-arms fire; it's just that they're more maneuverable and can use that to their advantage. That's not phantom unique, everything from Fat Han to Dash to Aggressors to interceptors to A-wings etc. will run circles around 4 generic Xs

variety within the squad itself is essential to avoid or mitigating the inevitability of bad match-ups, of which X-wings have a lot of simply because they're not terribly great ships (even after integrated). They're still just lumps of stats without boost/roll/cloak/SLAM or anything beyond move + focus or TL.

fortunately, the ship itself now has the option to overcome its own bad matchups thanks to integrated making all pilots more viable and BB-8 giving it some much needed maneuverability without excessive cost (looking at you, EU )

not taking advantage of it is only hurting yourself

I've found that 4 generic X-wings can win against a lot, especially with Integrated Astromechs. I don't think it's an issue with maneuverability. If you gave them a free Boost action, I don't see it helping them against a named Phantom pilot. It's the PS bid that you have to have....or the use of 4 red dice weapons or bombs (which X-wings can't get).

I believe that 4 generic ANYTHING will not really be able to beat a Phantom that is played decently.

Why would I not want to run your Wedge list? Well, because I want to believe that the game is balanced. Also, just because. Maybe I don't want to always be forced to play with a high PS pilot. Maybe I believe a balanced game can have a winning list of generics.

well, that's going to fall based on your definition of "balanced"

fact of the matter is that running all of X (the variable not the Wing ) is a "skew;" you're running only things with the same strengths and weaknesses

if you run into something that is difficult to handle, then you're not going to have an answer for it

Imo, that is balanced. Balanced systems should encourage variety both in numbers of lists and within lists themselves, not allow spam to win the day (as apparently it did in Waves 1-3? idk, I wasn't there ).

and actually, post errata, I believe 4 Bs could beat phantoms. This is simply because they have access to tools that X-wings do not, due their flexible upgrade slots and ability to barrel-roll without investing in a little pele droid (though I do love the little guy )

Blue Squaddie (FCS, b/e mod, int agent) [26]

Blue Squaddie (FCS, b/e mod, int agent) [26]

Blue Squaddie (FCS) [24]

Blue Squaddie (FCS) [24]

mind you, the pressure is on the B-wings to be able to bring enough arcs to bear such that they can kill the phantom even after losing a ship, but with Int Agent and b-roll they have actual tools they can bring to bear against more mobile foes

X-wings have...r3-a2? That thing's far better on a goldie Y-wing, though. Could be just the ticket to helping generic Xs deal with aces of any variety, though, and it's generic

so anyway, it's not just that the X-wing is "generic" and therefore phantoms win, it's that the X-wing is an inflexible ship without its named pilots (because it has a torp and astro for upgrades...and then a core set, an xpac, and an epic pack of named pilots)

meanwhile, you got

Y-wings --> ion control, ion + stress control, autoblasters, bomber, TLTs

B-wing --> naked jouster, FCS high damaged output, sensor shenanigans, Tactician control, ion cannon control, int agent shenanigans...

they're simply far more flexible as generic pilots than Xs are

woah, we got off topic. Well, that's the problem you run into when the topic can cloak

incidentally, generic Int Agent Phantoms, very flexible (punchy glass cannons that can hit through high agility, infuriating blockers, turns ties into infuriating blockers with int agentm low PS arc-dodgers, dominators of lower PS generics...)

only thing they can't do is PWTs

R3-A2 was used. It was a bloodbath. It's not as effective if you stress them after they shoot. Somewhat effective to limit their moves, but not nearly as effective as if used by a high PS pilot.

I still believe that the Phantom cripples the use of all generics, but I do concede that B-wings would have an easier time with it.

I still hate the Phantom and what it brings to the game. I will dislike seeing more of them on the table. I think the biggest problem I have with them is the 4 attack dice. It would've still been effective with just 3.

BTL-A4 Y-wings side step the phantom stress-after-shooting issue without concern, which is another reason it's generally a superior platform for r3-a2 (the other reason is it doesn't care about carrying around stress because it doesn't care about actions as much as Mr. 2 agility does 1 agi, 8 health, and two attacks really mitigate the lack of modifications esp when your opponent has none )

closest thing you could do to replicate it with an X is flechette torps...which work only once

If this game was all about ships that all had a decent chance against each other it would be incredibly boring to play. Every game needs a rock-paper-scissors element to keep people brainstorming new answers to beat paper with rock be it through a different upgrade or different style of flying. Against Whisper with just "generics" your best shot is to block her. This throws off her fire arc, therefore preventing her from recloaking by shooting or action, and making her even more predictable for the next turn. Trust me when I say playing a phantom is the best practice for dealing with Phantoms. You start to be able to see the moves that the phantom player wants to make, especially the side decloak and 1 hard turn. With a 4 identical ship build you can devote 2 to blocking potential positions for the Phantom to end up, and the other 2 "pre aiming" if you will - that spot. You can force the Phantom player into making unfavorable and predictable decloaks in the pre-game with your asteroid placement i.e. limiting the amount of open space where the Phantom can dance around wherever it wants.

On the topic of red dice, 4 red dice only seems crazy because of ACD to keep it alive, and a tooled out Phantom with ACD runs in the neighborhood of 40 points, equivalent to 3 point something TIEs which bring 2 more attack dice and 5 more HP. Without ACD the Phantom goes down just as easy as a headhunter.

the idea that 4 of any generic ship should be able to win against any list is rediculous, both in game play and in story line thinking. The thought that Whisper couldn't roll up on a 4 ship flight of rookies out on patrol and just decimate them does't make any sense. That is why they have the named pilots. They are there to add variety and diversity and fluff to our games.

Oh and just to further the arguement, a "Well run" 4 ship list should be able to block the hell out of a phantom and get shots on it. Key to killing the Phantom is red dice and lots of them. there are more good results on red dice than there are on the green dice. Green dice will fail you statisticly more often than red dice. You just have to keep at it.

Playing around with generics (4x of whatever should beat whatever is a bizarre notion, but no worries) and managed to mash four generic pilots in with a Phantom. I really want to take this for a spin, actually.

TIE Phantom: Shadow Squadron Pilot (27)

Sensor Jammer (4)

Advanced Cloaking Device (4)

Gunner (5)

TIE Fighter: Black Squadron Pilot (14)

Crack Shot (1)

TIE Fighter: Black Squadron Pilot (14)

Crack Shot (1)

TIE Fighter: Black Squadron Pilot (14)

Crack Shot (1)

TIE Fighter: Black Squadron Pilot (14)

Crack Shot (1)

100 points but midrange PS is on lock. Get enough arcs on an Ace and Crack Shot will push damage through.

It seems kind of counterintuitive, but I think the Black Squadron should block for the Phantom against other generic pilots, and the Phantom can decloak/block against Ace pilots for Black Squadron.

needs more int agent

2 Sigmas (jammies, int agent, stygium) [64]

3 Academy Pilots [36]

100 points of fun

(alternatively, just Carnor Jax it)

Eh, I've done the Int Agent thing and it works deliciously but they're just so dang fragile. I'd rather have just one at PS5 with ACD for mobility, and the Jammer for sustained resistance. After that all you've got for damage mitigation (edit: damage output that is) is the Crew slot, so I'd rather do that (RecSpec or Gunner especially) instead of just throwing in the Intel Agent again.

closest thing you could do to replicate it with an X is flechette torps...which work only once

Unless you take Munitions Failsafe, then you can do it as long as you keep missing.

I think Phantoms certainly have a place in the current meta. I'm currently running a three ship Imperial list - Interceptor, Phantom and TIE. All named pilots. I'm trying various iterations including either Whisper or Echo and both perform well against both high and low PS opponents. I've only played one TLT heavy list and struggled like the previous poster to get into range one of a target and out of range two to three of another turret. But even so, I think this will come with practice. In terms of Phantoms 'breaking' the game... As a Phantom lover I feel the same way about fat turrets. But, it gives you an incentive to learn how to beat them!

I think Phantoms certainly have a place in the current meta. I'm currently running a three ship Imperial list - Interceptor, Phantom and TIE. All named pilots. I'm trying various iterations including either Whisper or Echo and both perform well against both high and low PS opponents. I've only played one TLT heavy list and struggled like the previous poster to get into range one of a target and out of range two to three of another turret. But even so, I think this will come with practice. In terms of Phantoms 'breaking' the game... As a Phantom lover I feel the same way about fat turrets. But, it gives you an incentive to learn how to beat them!

I totally agree with you. I don't believe that any ship "breaks the game". I honestly think you can beat anything with a well thought out list that you are familiar and comfortable with.

Liking your list too HoundsTooth. Which pilots/upgrades do you run?

Phantoms lost their forgiving reactionary ability that turned them into the broken king of Wave 4, and were abandoned en masse by people who rely on the internet for their squad building. The Phantom no longer forgives you for anything. Like the Aggressor, it's a ship that rewards you hugely if you're good with it, and you die if you're not.