Second Breakfast in the Heart of Angmar

By Gizlivadi, in The Lord of the Rings: The Card Game

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Yay, some news!

A good quest for this, finally?

Shadows-Give-Way.jpg

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"The Battle of Carn Dûm is due to arrive at retailers early next month!"

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Sounds freaking epic. The art is breathtaking.

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Yep, the art is amazing, but... wow.. those enemies... is it me or they are nasty powerful? 13 life points... 6 attack points... almost like Shadow and Flame!

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My Dunedain deck will never make it here :P

The art is fantastic and the quest seem very epic, can't wait

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Yep, the art is amazing, but... wow.. those enemies... is it me or they are nasty powerful? 13 life points... 6 attack points... almost like Shadow and Flame!

Another day on the job for Gandalf and Elrond!

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Shadows Give Way!

And we are finally seeing a werewolf! Why everybody is silent about freaking WEREWOLF?!

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Shadows Give Way!

And we are finally seeing a werewolf! Why everybody is silent about freaking WEREWOLF?!

We're scared of it. :ph34r:

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Werewolf!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yay :)

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For some reason I'm also really excited about witches in the last pack.

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Hello Burning Brand, welcome in my sideboard!

Looks fun, though I'm going to be really happy if we finally get rid of Taurdir. This guy doesn't know when to quit!

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For some reason I'm also really excited about witches in the last pack.

wait what? witches? there are not really any witches in middle earths history so its strange that ffg would include them, were they actually mentioned somewhere by FFG?

EDIT: "the dead don't lie quiet in Angmar, and you'll need to battle past wraiths, witches, and possibly even those members of your fellowship who fall in battle only to be reanimated by the dark magic that pervades the fortress and its catacombs." - the dread realm news article.

Personally I think this is silly.... wights, werewolves, wraiths, necromancers, sorcerers (which are more or less the same thing) werewolves and even vampires (to a degree) fit in Middle Earth but I don't recollect any mention of witches in any of the three ages. Just call them sorcerers!!!!

Edited by PsychoRocka
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Um... how about the WITCH-King of Angmar?

I personally think witches and hags are cool, so I have no problem with them.

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The Witch king and his name isn't related to witches. Check out these threads:
https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/2s45qh/witches_in_middle_earth/

http://www.lotrplaza.com/archives/index.php?Archive=First%20Age&TID=188645

HOWEVER your mention of Hags has kind of really intrigued me. They could do witches/hags in a really creepy and different way (as different as possible from the mainstream depiction of witches please....) that actually really works. They could be more like followers of Dacchanar that help with rituals etc rather than full blown "witches". Just so long as they fit with middle earth like pretty much everything FFG have done I'm sure they will be cool. Just no pointy noises, black hats, green skin, brooms, warts etc please......

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All speculation, though. Tolkien himself didn't weigh in on it as far as I know. If this keyword search page works correctly, the word witch is only used a total of 3 times across all of the Silmarillion, Hobbit, and Lord of the Rings saga combined. And I'm sure each one of those is a reference to the Witch-king. So there's no point of comparison: either Tolkien was using the word 'witch' in the common way, or he was not. We certainly can't make any categorical pronouncements about it. But then, the mystique of Middle-Earth lies in its many mysteries, so I wouldn't really want to know any more than we already do.

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Apparently you're right, Witch king doesn't refer to female wizards as much as an old generic word for sorcerers.

When I spoke of hags I meant exactly that: hags. Old, ugly decrepit women who do magic stuff.

The common stereotype as you see it in the Wizard of Oz (green skin, round pointy hats, etc) would be silly to see in the game literally like you describe it. However, I still like the idea of witches and hags in the traditional mythological sense. No, I'm not speaking of "cool" modern witches or mages popularized by World of Warcraft, but rather the old mythological figure of an evil crone constantly plotting ruin, creating bad weather, confusing travellers, etc. I'm talking about Baba Yaga, about the Cailleach, etc, which is actually a very old mythological creature present in pretty much every European culture, and thus I think that it fits nicely in Middle Earth, especially a place like Angmar. For any of you who played Magic several years ago, the Hags and Gwyllions in the Shadowmoor-Eventide block is precisely what I would love to see in the pack.

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eh, I'm fine with witches, werewolves, and hags. If done right, they can be downright horrifying (just look at the hags in the Witcher 3.@_@ ). Fighting orcs gets boring after a while in what I consider a bog-standard fantasy world. It's good to see some more fantastical elements in this game.

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All speculation, though. Tolkien himself didn't weigh in on it as far as I know. If this keyword search page works correctly, the word witch is only used a total of 3 times across all of the Silmarillion, Hobbit, and Lord of the Rings saga combined. And I'm sure each one of those is a reference to the Witch-king. So there's no point of comparison: either Tolkien was using the word 'witch' in the common way, or he was not. We certainly can't make any categorical pronouncements about it. But then, the mystique of Middle-Earth lies in its many mysteries, so I wouldn't really want to know any more than we already do.

I think from the very fact that the ONLY use of the word witch (other than one other use mentioned below) throughout all of his works is in relation to the Witch King more or less shows us that he is using the word in his own way and to symbolise sorcery and dark magic in general. He is not the king of witches nor is he a witch by the standard definition of the word either. So therefore witch seems to simply be a term that can be used when describing those who use magic, especially dark or "evil" magic. If I remember correctly at some point Gimli refers to Galadriel as an "Elf Witch" (potentially the only other use of the word) and she is CLEARLY not a witch (other than the fact that she uses "magic") so this just further backs up this theory.

Yes it is not concrete and yes many things about Middle Earth remain mysterious but I think that in this case it is pretty obvious what Tolkien's intent was.

Edited by PsychoRocka
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I think the 'elf witch' comment is only in the movies. Yeah I think you're right though, the word 'witch' in 'the Witch-king' would mean 'the sorcerer-king' and not 'the king of witches.' Still I think it's entirely likely that there are witches (in the modern sense, women who practice magic) in Middle-earth.

Really if werewolves were not established cannon, I'm sure we'd call it very silly to put them in a Lord of the Rings-themed game. The werewolf card they spoiled in the article is a good example of why: they've got a humanoid wolf-man (silver bullets, anyone?). Really I think we should be seeing a man who can change into a wolf (an actual wolf). Like Beorn, the werebear! But our modern understanding of the word werewolf is different from what I think was meant long ago, and different from the werewolves that Tolkien describes.

Likewise the modern perception of the word 'witch' pretty quickly brings to mind pointy black hats, cauldrons and broomsticks. So their inclusion in Middle-earth might seem silly. I don't think that's what we'll get, and I don't see any reason that Tolkien would not have happily included witches in Middle-earth (meaning in the modern sense of the word: women who do magic. No pointy hats necessary, ALTHOUGH Tolkien was fond of pointy hats).

edit: incidentally, Galadriel is most certainly a witch if you call what she does magic :)

Edited by GrandSpleen
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I see no problem with witches. A witch is basically a female version of this:

Morgul-Sorcerer.jpg

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I think the 'elf witch' comment is only in the movies. Yeah I think you're right though, the word 'witch' in 'the Witch-king' would mean 'the sorcerer-king' and not 'the king of witches.' Still I think it's entirely likely that there are witches (in the modern sense, women who practice magic) in Middle-earth.

Really if werewolves were not established cannon, I'm sure we'd call it very silly to put them in a Lord of the Rings-themed game. The werewolf card they spoiled in the article is a good example of why: they've got a humanoid wolf-man (silver bullets, anyone?). Really I think we should be seeing a man who can change into a wolf (an actual wolf). Like Beorn, the werebear! But our modern understanding of the word werewolf is different from what I think was meant long ago, and different from the werewolves that Tolkien describes.

Likewise the modern perception of the word 'witch' pretty quickly brings to mind pointy black hats, cauldrons and broomsticks. So their inclusion in Middle-earth might seem silly. I don't think that's what we'll get, and I don't see any reason that Tolkien would not have happily included witches in Middle-earth (meaning in the modern sense of the word: women who do magic. No pointy hats necessary, ALTHOUGH Tolkien was fond of pointy hats).

edit: incidentally, Galadriel is most certainly a witch if you call what she does magic :)

blech I hate when actual lore and the movies get muddled in your head. It does sound like something that would only be in the movies....

There definitely would be women who practise magic in middle earth, they just might be known by other names more so than the term witch but I do see what you are saying and agree. There are "witches" in middle earth it just might not be the most common or fitting term for those beings within the world of Middle Earth.

For sure if werewolves were not canon it would be painful to see them but they are so I am incredibly excited to see them!!! You are right though with the whole humanoid thing, they should just be giant savage Wolves if we are to stick to the source material. I guess the main problem with that however is a simple one; wargs. We already have so many goddamn wargs (not to mention a scenario with ONLY wargs and another with ONLY wargs and the watcher) in the game and probably plenty more to come that if they did werewolves as close to the source material as possible their art would be very similar to the many many pieces of art we have seen so far for wargs.

Wargs and Werewolves would be indistinguishable other than from their names or if they perhaps showed size in some way in the art for Werewolves showing them as much bigger and nastier. Even then however they would simply be massive versions of the Wargs which would be fitting but potentially a bit stale/unexciting in the context of the game. I think that for the sake of the game this is probably the better direction for them to take even if it is slightly unthematic as it distinguishes between the two quite well.

Also you are actually incorrect in that we should be seeing a man transform into a wolf as the werewolves in tolkiens work are VERY VERY different to usual and are really just giant wolves inhabited by evil spirits (perhaps even corrupted Maiar!) that are able to speak and have an intellect similar to that of a man or elf. You will find that the only transforming werewolf was actually Sauron who took the form of a giant wolf (werewolf) at times.

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I see no problem with witches. A witch is basically a female version of this:

Morgul-Sorcerer.jpg

Seeing this massive version of this card has just made me realize that this guy is actually holding a staff and not a two handed sword :P

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Also you are actually incorrect in that we should be seeing a man transform into a wolf as the werewolves in tolkiens work are VERY VERY different to usual and are really just giant wolves inhabited by evil spirits (perhaps even corrupted Maiar!) that are able to speak and have an intellect similar to that of a man or elf. You will find that the only transforming werewolf was actually Sauron who took the form of a giant wolf (werewolf) at times.

Ah, I see. Strange that he chose the word 'werewolf' then, since it literally means 'man wolf.'

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He meant wolf with man traits, like ability to speak or think