I'm gonna run a quantum universe SWRPG setting where Palpatine accidentally said 'Execute Order 65'.. there is no Palpatine,as he was killed by Windu (and those 3 schmucks who died REALLY quickly in Ep III) and no Darth Vader, as Anakin saw the error of his ways and rejoined the Light Side after the 'Windu Monologue'

It'll be really boring

Not necessarily.

GM Chris of the Order 66 podcast ran an Alternate Universe game back in the days of Saga Edition where Mace and Anakin did cut down Palpatine, so no Order 66 and no Empire. Short version is things didn't get the least bit boring for the PC, and the galaxy had some pretty hefty shake-ups by the time the campaign was concluded, such as one of the PCs inadvertently killing the Big Good of the whole campaign during the climactic starship combat, while the identity of the Big Bad and how they came to be that way caught most of the players by surprise.

My question to the "Mace Ought Have Survived/Mace Is A Mentor To My PCs" crowd: do you dislike your PCs?

Mace was a terrible Jedi, as were much of the order. They were so hidebound and conservative that they had done little more than serve as the willing arm of a directionless and occasionally morally corrupt regime. Now to be fair most of how bad the Jedi are is attributable to how objectively bad the prequels are, but even still - at what point did he present someone who should be teaching young, frightened and horribly isolated young Jedi PCs on how to wield the Force?

I understand that there's a certain possibly utility to it because there's very little viable options in terms of survivors but he wasn't a particularly great bloke...

My question to the "Mace Ought Have Survived/Mace Is A Mentor To My PCs" crowd: do you dislike your PCs?

Mace was a terrible Jedi, as were much of the order. They were so hidebound and conservative that they had done little more than serve as the willing arm of a directionless and occasionally morally corrupt regime. Now to be fair most of how bad the Jedi are is attributable to how objectively bad the prequels are, but even still - at what point did he present someone who should be teaching young, frightened and horribly isolated young Jedi PCs on how to wield the Force?

I understand that there's a certain possibly utility to it because there's very little viable options in terms of survivors but he wasn't a particularly great bloke...

There was a Star Wars fanficiton I read that addressed something like this:

Having your entire way of life and everything you stand for is kind of a humbling experience, especially if you failed to succeed or were responsible. Say Windu did survive, was in good enough health to smuggle himself off Coruscant and didn't go crazy over the years, he would have had plenty of time to think. TCW shows that many of the Jedi, including Mace, were not inherently bad people. It's not outside of the realm of believable that a GM could lighten Mace's, or another surviving Jedi, attitude a little.

Mace just made one mistake he let his belief that he was morally superior to everyone else lead to a really bad decision.

All he had to do was arrest Palpatine and Annakin wouldn't have turned to the dark side. Nearly dying losing an arm and being responsible for everything that comes later would change him more then likely for the better.

My question to the "Mace Ought Have Survived/Mace Is A Mentor To My PCs" crowd: do you dislike your PCs?

Mace was a terrible Jedi, as were much of the order. They were so hidebound and conservative that they had done little more than serve as the willing arm of a directionless and occasionally morally corrupt regime. Now to be fair most of how bad the Jedi are is attributable to how objectively bad the prequels are, but even still - at what point did he present someone who should be teaching young, frightened and horribly isolated young Jedi PCs on how to wield the Force?

I understand that there's a certain possibly utility to it because there's very little viable options in terms of survivors but he wasn't a particularly great bloke...

Mace, along with most of the Jedi, were not terrible. I think the problem Mace and most of the Jedi Order face is that it wasn't as BADASS as everyone thought it should be. Lucas gave us a Jedi Order that was flawed and far from perfect. Something that reflected the universe he was trying to create, which was basically that while the Republic and Jedi Order tried to do good they were failing at it by being flawed institutions mired in 1000+ years of tradition and bureaucracy. Had he created a more perfect Jedi Order there would be no reason for them not to fall.

Granted the Jedi we see in the PT aren't really that hidebound or conservative. What most people use to object to them seem to just be based on a disagreement with their lifestyle and trying to overlay 21st century moral ideals onto a fictional organization.

Mace just made one mistake he let his belief that he was morally superior to everyone else lead to a really bad decision.

All he had to do was arrest Palpatine and Annakin wouldn't have turned to the dark side. Nearly dying losing an arm and being responsible for everything that comes later would change him more then likely for the better.

The plan was to arrest him -- until he killed three other Jedi went all Van De Graff on Mace.

That said, the fact that they rushed to arrest Palpatine, without Yoda or Kenobi or more of the "militant" Masters, and failed, played directly into Palpatine's hands in terms of pretext for the purge and turning Anakin completely.

You've got to wonder though... did Mace really expect to be able to arrest Palpatine? He said it himself that the Chancellor was too dangerous to keep alive, as he had control of the courts and Senate. Now, assuming this isn't something that JUST struck him as he was pointing his weapon at Palpatine's wrinkly face... what did he REALLY plan on doing when he marched into that office with the other Masters?

You've got to wonder though... did Mace really expect to be able to arrest Palpatine? He said it himself that the Chancellor was too dangerous to keep alive, as he had control of the courts and Senate. Now, assuming this isn't something that JUST struck him as he was pointing his weapon at Palpatine's wrinkly face... what did he REALLY plan on doing when he marched into that office with the other Masters?

Oh i think Mace actually believed Anakin when he told him Palpatine was the Sith Lord, and he may have already suspected that on his own, and so he fully expected Palpatine to fight back and be killed by the Council Masters. Peacefuly arresting him was just backup scenario and quite unlikely as far as he was concerned.

You've got to wonder though... did Mace really expect to be able to arrest Palpatine? He said it himself that the Chancellor was too dangerous to keep alive, as he had control of the courts and Senate. Now, assuming this isn't something that JUST struck him as he was pointing his weapon at Palpatine's wrinkly face... what did he REALLY plan on doing when he marched into that office with the other Masters?

Up until Palpatine revealed himself to be the Sith Lord and far more powerful than a quartet of Jedi Masters (none of whom in Legends were slouches with a lightsaber), he probably figured that the Jedi could handle it; after all, Anakin had bested Dooku only a couple days prior, and Dooku was seen as a very powerful Force user and expert duelist. He just got a very rude awakening at finding out that Palps was indeed the Master, and shifted from "arrest him" to "execute him!" based upon just how powerful Sidious actually was, and the knowledge that between Palp's control of the courts and his mastery of the dark side of the Force, there wasn't any other way to contain a threat of that magnitude.

It'd be akin to putting a bicycle chain around Godzilla's leg and hoping the big lizard stays put.

You've got to wonder though... did Mace really expect to be able to arrest Palpatine? He said it himself that the Chancellor was too dangerous to keep alive, as he had control of the courts and Senate. Now, assuming this isn't something that JUST struck him as he was pointing his weapon at Palpatine's wrinkly face... what did he REALLY plan on doing when he marched into that office with the other Masters?

I think he intended to arrest him up until the point that Palpatine killed the other Jedi Masters. Then he likely changed his mind.

Mace, along with most of the Jedi, were not terrible. I think the problem Mace and most of the Jedi Order face is that it wasn't as BADASS as everyone thought it should be. Lucas gave us a Jedi Order that was flawed and far from perfect. Something that reflected the universe he was trying to create, which was basically that while the Republic and Jedi Order tried to do good they were failing at it by being flawed institutions mired in 1000+ years of tradition and bureaucracy. Had he created a more perfect Jedi Order there would be no reason for them not to fall.

Granted the Jedi we see in the PT aren't really that hidebound or conservative. What most people use to object to them seem to just be based on a disagreement with their lifestyle and trying to overlay 21st century moral ideals onto a fictional organization.

Nobody is layering anything over the top. They were complacent agents of a government that was failing an accountability test and they never challenged it except to stage a coup d'état. They neglected to advise the government whom they served unquestioningly that the point of differentiation between them and other agents of the Republic - use of the Force - was severely diminished. Take this line of poorly written dialogue from a badly acted film:

Yoda: Blind we are, of creation of this clone army we could not see.

Mace Windu: I think it is time we inform the senate that our ability to use the force has diminished.

Yoda: Only a Dark Lord of the Sith knows of our weakness. If informed the senate is, multiply our adversaries will.

Later, during a moment in which many of our childhood villain was revealed to actually have been born out of the least convincing cause ever, you get this:

Mace Windu: I’m going to put an end to this, once and for all!

Anakin Skywalker: You can’t. He must stand trial.

Mace Windu: He has control of the senate and all the courts. He is too dangerous to be left alive

And people want their players to learn from this guy?

What FAD has given me at least, in conjunction with the discreet but appreciated sweeping of the prequels under the rugs that is TFA, a pretty clear message that the best I can do is make a Jedi mentor myself for the PC in my party who is a FS. The best thing possible in my view is to have a Jedi who roams the galaxy battling injustice, corruption, graft and intolerance as a ronin style wandering troubleshooter.

Contrasted with the PT Jedi Order I think this is the best outcome, personally. If you're dealing with the rise of the Empire, you want a Jedi who is essentially unattached to any arm of any military. The failure of the PT order in every respect (unable to stop fall of the Republic, basically pushed Mannequin to the dark side, and those robes!) should be a signal that having Jedi as an arm of the judiciary is in fact inherently a bad idea and so I would avoid, personally, having a mentor who is tied to that.

Now it's possible, as suggested above, that Mace was humbled but I mean, his every instinct would be to recreate that structure no?

Now it's possible, as suggested above, that Mace was humbled but I mean, his every instinct would be to recreate that structure no?

You've answered your own question: it's possible either way, and not entirely outside of the realm of believable. A quality writer or GM could develop either if they want.

Mace, along with most of the Jedi, were not terrible. I think the problem Mace and most of the Jedi Order face is that it wasn't as BADASS as everyone thought it should be. Lucas gave us a Jedi Order that was flawed and far from perfect. Something that reflected the universe he was trying to create, which was basically that while the Republic and Jedi Order tried to do good they were failing at it by being flawed institutions mired in 1000+ years of tradition and bureaucracy. Had he created a more perfect Jedi Order there would be no reason for them not to fall.

Granted the Jedi we see in the PT aren't really that hidebound or conservative. What most people use to object to them seem to just be based on a disagreement with their lifestyle and trying to overlay 21st century moral ideals onto a fictional organization.

Nobody is layering anything over the top. They were complacent agents of a government that was failing an accountability test and they never challenged it except to stage a coup d'état. They neglected to advise the government whom they served unquestioningly that the point of differentiation between them and other agents of the Republic - use of the Force - was severely diminished. Take this line of poorly written dialogue from a badly acted film:

Yoda: Blind we are, of creation of this clone army we could not see.

Mace Windu: I think it is time we inform the senate that our ability to use the force has diminished.

Yoda: Only a Dark Lord of the Sith knows of our weakness. If informed the senate is, multiply our adversaries will.

Later, during a moment in which many of our childhood villain was revealed to actually have been born out of the least convincing cause ever, you get this:

Mace Windu: I’m going to put an end to this, once and for all!

Anakin Skywalker: You can’t. He must stand trial.

Mace Windu: He has control of the senate and all the courts. He is too dangerous to be left alive

And people want their players to learn from this guy?

What FAD has given me at least, in conjunction with the discreet but appreciated sweeping of the prequels under the rugs that is TFA, a pretty clear message that the best I can do is make a Jedi mentor myself for the PC in my party who is a FS. The best thing possible in my view is to have a Jedi who roams the galaxy battling injustice, corruption, graft and intolerance as a ronin style wandering troubleshooter.

Contrasted with the PT Jedi Order I think this is the best outcome, personally. If you're dealing with the rise of the Empire, you want a Jedi who is essentially unattached to any arm of any military. The failure of the PT order in every respect (unable to stop fall of the Republic, basically pushed Mannequin to the dark side, and those robes!) should be a signal that having Jedi as an arm of the judiciary is in fact inherently a bad idea and so I would avoid, personally, having a mentor who is tied to that.

Now it's possible, as suggested above, that Mace was humbled but I mean, his every instinct would be to recreate that structure no?

Basically the Jedi Order was not as perfect as you would have liked and therefore they were bad. Lucas wrote them as flawed like everything else in the PT. Both the Republic and the Jedi Order were meant to not live up to their ideals. That was supposed to add tension and drama to their collapse and fall. It was supposed to help inform why one man could topple both.

Lucas executed the idea poorly but there actually isn't much wrong with the Order itself.

The sad thing is .... if the PT Jedi Order has been as you say they should have been like people would be complaining that it was toppled in the first place. So no matter how the Jedi Order gets portrayed they are always going to lose out.

Of course; you're missing my point. It's good that they were bad, in that it gives you perspective on what not to do. I mean, whenever we have a significant fall, collapse, defeat or other failure we have a "lessons learned from..." piece of analysis. Joseph Schumpeter came up with the idea of 'creative destruction' - the "process of industrial mutation that incessantly revolutionizes the economic structure from within, incessantly destroying the old one, incessantly creating a new one". One can go on but the point is - yes, the PT Jedi Order failed in their duty because arguably they weren't very good at their job. A sympathetic, in universe argument might be that they were so caught up in the day to day administration of affairs for the Republic that they lost sight of their true purpose - servants of the Force.

It's not an unusual perspective either. Luke has this revelation in the Legends book "Heir to the Empire" - on the rooftop of his Coruscant abode, talking to Threepio.

Rather than trying to shoehorn prequel Jedi into other eras, you should use the opportunity for a lessons learned approach. How can the next generation of Jedi be less an official arm of government and more a servant of the Force and defender of justice? Answer: by not being what their predecessors were.

Do you see my point?

My take from the entire falling of the Jedi was that they were unbalanced in the use of the force. They refused to use the light emotions and specifically stated that there is no death. They actively used the light side while actively not living according to the light side and experiencing it. The force in balance is both life and death, good and evil, light and dark, etc... It's a cycle on the one hand and in other it's yin-yang. Yin-Yang has a light and dark side, but if you look closely you will see a bit of dark in the light and a bit of light in the dark. That's balance.

Anakin being The Chosen One™ means in this context that he has to be light with a bit of dark. He failed as The Chosen One™ as he died right after he was redeemed. Luke was light with a bit of dark due to his training and experiences. In the actual Jedi training he received Obi-wan and Yoda did not tell him about how the Jedi Order was. With the PT, you understand why they refused to pass along what was the old Jedi Order due to it being out of balance and they had 19+ years to reflect on why it failed.

Also after the last Sith War, in the hubris of the Jedi Order they purposely built the Coruscant temple on top of a Sith Temple. It was a signal to the galaxy that the Sith were destroyed and the flame went out. Unfortunately, Sidious knew about the Sith Temple and used it to blind the Jedi Order during the PT.

Well they also manipulated Luke into being their weapon to kill Vader and the Emperor, so... yeah. They weren't actually great people, or "good guys".

Of course; you're missing my point. It's good that they were bad, in that it gives you perspective on what not to do. I mean, whenever we have a significant fall, collapse, defeat or other failure we have a "lessons learned from..." piece of analysis. Joseph Schumpeter came up with the idea of 'creative destruction' - the "process of industrial mutation that incessantly revolutionizes the economic structure from within, incessantly destroying the old one, incessantly creating a new one". One can go on but the point is - yes, the PT Jedi Order failed in their duty because arguably they weren't very good at their job. A sympathetic, in universe argument might be that they were so caught up in the day to day administration of affairs for the Republic that they lost sight of their true purpose - servants of the Force.

It's not an unusual perspective either. Luke has this revelation in the Legends book "Heir to the Empire" - on the rooftop of his Coruscant abode, talking to Threepio.

Rather than trying to shoehorn prequel Jedi into other eras, you should use the opportunity for a lessons learned approach. How can the next generation of Jedi be less an official arm of government and more a servant of the Force and defender of justice? Answer: by not being what their predecessors were.

Do you see my point?

I see your point, I just don't fundamentally agree that them being an official government arm was a bad thing or that there isn't anything that could be learned from any PT Jedi. Being part of the government didn't stop them from being servants of the Force, it enabled them to do that job better giving them the chance to use the wisdom they gleaned from the Force to help people throughout the galaxy. They wouldn't have been very good defenders of justice if they weren't part of the Republic government due to them lacking any real authority to dispense justice.

Also it's hard to take Luke's Heir to the Empire revelation seriously when you consider that the book was written well before the Jedi Order we are critiquing was created.

They refused to use the light emotions and specifically stated that there is no death.

People say this all the time but it's not true. We see the Jedi engaged in all kinds of emotions throughout the PT and TCW. What they lack is attachments. But they do experience and engage in emotions.

The force in balance is both life and death, good and evil, light and dark, etc... It's a cycle on the one hand and in other it's yin-yang. Yin-Yang has a light and dark side, but if you look closely you will see a bit of dark in the light and a bit of light in the dark. That's balance.

Canon material does not support the idea that balance in the Force was about light and dark, good and evil in equal measures. I don't know why people keep insisting that balance in the Force was supposed to be about allowing for good and evil when Lucas's morality as displayed in the movies was that evil was always to be defeated and stamped out.

Well they also manipulated Luke into being their weapon to kill Vader and the Emperor, so... yeah. They weren't actually great people, or "good guys".

Can't pin that on the Jedi Order. And that's a real negative twist to what we see in typical morality plays.

The notion of "balance" gets all twisted up because both Lucas, and more so those who came "after", utterly conflated the Near Eastern "good-evil" duality with the Far Eastern "yin-yang" duality, got it tangled up with the Buddhist notions of attachment and detachment, and framed the whole mess in a prescriptive (rather than descriptive) version of Campbell's hero's journey.

People say this all the time but it's not true. We see the Jedi engaged in all kinds of emotions throughout the PT and TCW. What they lack is attachments. But they do experience and engage in emotions.

In violation of the Jedi Code no less. The code specifically says that there is no emotion, only peace. Yes, they do have emotions, but they do not use them which is what I meant by engaging them.

Canon material does not support the idea that balance in the Force was about light and dark, good and evil in equal measures. I don't know why people keep insisting that balance in the Force was supposed to be about allowing for good and evil when Lucas's morality as displayed in the movies was that evil was always to be defeated and stamped out.

Due to the fact that everything Lucas has done in Star Wars was based upon Eastern, not Western, philosophy. The Jedi are Samurai while Dark Siders/Sith are Ronin etc... Good and Evil is a Western philosophy. Since it's based upon Eastern philosophy then Yin-Yang comes into play. The symbolism of it is that you have light with a blob of dark and dark with a blob of light. The division of light and dark is equal as is the distance between the blobs. That is what is meant by balance. Balance, according to Jedi thinking, is the absence of the dark. Sith believe that balance is the absence of the light.

Now if you look at Anakin in the PT he is mostly light with a blob of dark. Near the end of RotS, he becomes mostly dark with a blob of light. This is born out by Luke always saying that he could still feel good in Vader. Through Luke's connection in the force to his father he could see that Vader was surrounded mostly by dark, but had a blob of light inside that darkness. Think back to the Yin-Yang symbol and you can see that is what Vader was in the OT on the dark side. This is canon from the movie and from the dialog.

Now numerous books like The Jedi Path and Jedi vs. Sith it clearly mentions that the force has a light, dark, unifying, living, physical, and cosmic sides that are all interconnected and intertwined. You cannot have balance with just one side. You need to have all sides in equal balance to be balanced.

Except that Lucas very blatantly conflates otherwise unrelated and incompatible Near Eastern and Far Eastern notions of "duality" into one mess.

It's sloppy 70s syncretism.

In violation of the Jedi Code no less. The code specifically says that there is no emotion, only peace. Yes, they do have emotions, but they do not use them which is what I meant by engaging them.

You interpret the code literally but then go on to discuss how the Jedi symbolical are supposed to embrace both light and dark. Gotcha. That part of the code is in reference to emotional attachments.

The Jedi are against the use of emotional attachments. Not against the use of emotions.

Due to the fact that everything Lucas has done in Star Wars was based upon Eastern, not Western, philosophy. The Jedi are Samurai while Dark Siders/Sith are Ronin etc... Good and Evil is a Western philosophy. Since it's based upon Eastern philosophy then Yin-Yang comes into play. The symbolism of it is that you have light with a blob of dark and dark with a blob of light. The division of light and dark is equal as is the distance between the blobs. That is what is meant by balance. Balance, according to Jedi thinking, is the absence of the dark. Sith believe that balance is the absence of the light.

Balance in the Force is not about how much good and evil there is. Lucas makes it very clear that at the end of the day the job of Lightsiders is to take out evil. Canon material does not support the idea that for balance in the Force to be maintained there must be good and evil.

And while Good and Evil are Western philosophies it is clear that Lucas is using them in a Western way. He may interject some Eastern stuff but he is clearly writing a Western good vs evil morality play where the end goal of good is to destroy evil. He borrows a lot more from Campbell's hero's journey than he does Eastern thought.

Also the samurai/ronin thing is immaterial.

Now if you look at Anakin in the PT he is mostly light with a blob of dark. Near the end of RotS, he becomes mostly dark with a blob of light. This is born out by Luke always saying that he could still feel good in Vader. Through Luke's connection in the force to his father he could see that Vader was surrounded mostly by dark, but had a blob of light inside that darkness. Think back to the Yin-Yang symbol and you can see that is what Vader was in the OT on the dark side. This is canon from the movie and from the dialog.

Only ...... Lucas's story structure doesn't support this. His story structure follows a very Western style story of redemption. Luke's comments about his father aren't about how Vader is a dark blob with a little bit of light to him. It's about the redemption of his father's soul, which is thoroughly rooted in Western morality.

Now numerous books like The Jedi Path and Jedi vs. Sith it clearly mentions that the force has a light, dark, unifying, living, physical, and cosmic sides that are all interconnected and intertwined. You cannot have balance with just one side. You need to have all sides in equal balance to be balanced.

Only balance is not about equal parts good and equal parts evil. That's not how the standard morality play works. And Lucas first and foremost embraces the morality play aspect more than he embraces Eastern philosophy. I don't agree with Killjoy on much but he is right that Lucas does conflate aspects of Near Eastern and Eastern thought. He doesn't take them to their logical conclusions and he instead takes elements from them and forces them into Western philosophy.

Balance in Lucas's world is the removal of evil. That's why RotJ doesn't end with a new kind of evil rising. It ends with evils complete and utter defeat. And at that point balance on the Force has been restored. Not because there are equal parts good and evil, but because good has triumphed over evil. The Force wasn't imbalanced because there wasn't enough evil in the world. It was imbalanced because of the growing influence in the galaxy of the darkside.

If balance in the Force was really meant to be about how you need equal parts good and evil then RotJ would have ended in a completely different fashion. Lucas dressed some of his concepts in ideas from Eastern philosophy but he was 100% employing Western thought, the hero's journey, and the triumphant return of good over evil.

You know, part of the balance problem is also that the good/evil "scale" is, IMO, perpendicular to the "balance" scale. Being out of balance is NOT a matter of "too much good" or "too much evil", it's that being out of balance either way can make you susceptible to "becoming evil".

Where I really start to diverge from what seems to be "accepted Force dogma" is that I view the Jedi as potentially vulnerable to being out of balance as the Sith.

Jedi vs Sith

Order vs Chaos

Detachment vs Indulgence

Society vs Self

Service vs Dominance

Tranquility vs Passion

Etc.

At least in the EU / Legends, many of the Jedi who "fell" didn't do so because they succumbed to their base impulses or turned to comic-book evil -- they fell because they were consumed by their extreme drive for things like justice and peace.

^ and that is an excellent point, and one that causes me to want to go back to pre-prequel views of the Jedi. The order failed in a number of respects, from the inability to see the dark side and stop its role in toppling the republic, to the philosophical disputes some of us have raised here.

I would, instead of looking to known survivors to have a famous Jedi mentor your PCs, invest instead in someone who can make your PCs who you want them to be. Given the narrative focus of the story I'd be surprised if people wanted to be like the paper thin Jedi of the prequel era (or even the slightly less shallow variants of the Clone Wars show). They probably want a bit more depth, right?

So if you want to, say, leave Mace alive and mentor your PCs, the question is this - why? If it's to have an older, wiser, humbler Mace then is it still Mace?

I just think the best you can do is invent someone yourself, who will instead support, inform and shape your narrative for the better.

A different sort of mentor... https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/192317-tell-me-about-holocrons-in-your-game/?p=2002957

^ and that is an excellent point, and one that causes me to want to go back to pre-prequel views of the Jedi. The order failed in a number of respects, from the inability to see the dark side and stop its role in toppling the republic, to the philosophical disputes some of us have raised here.

I would, instead of looking to known survivors to have a famous Jedi mentor your PCs, invest instead in someone who can make your PCs who you want them to be. Given the narrative focus of the story I'd be surprised if people wanted to be like the paper thin Jedi of the prequel era (or even the slightly less shallow variants of the Clone Wars show). They probably want a bit more depth, right?

So if you want to, say, leave Mace alive and mentor your PCs, the question is this - why? If it's to have an older, wiser, humbler Mace then is it still Mace?

I just think the best you can do is invent someone yourself, who will instead support, inform and shape your narrative for the better.

I think your question is flawed. You keep working from the assumption that EVERYONE thinks that the PT Jedi were flawed and therefore why should anyone want to use them. That is simply not the case. People who are considering using Mace and any other Jedi from the PT era see merit in the characters and the Jedi Order they represented. It is not a universal truth that the Jedi Order of the PT was bad. If you want to run it that way then fine more power to you. But there are those of us who feel that they were good examples of Jedi as well and did a pretty good job of upholding their ideals and being a force for good in the galaxy.

For some of us the Jedi Order of the PT era were flawed individuals making the best of bad situations. For some of us the Jedi Order of the PT era were filled with wise men caught in difficult times. For some of us the PT era Jedi were tragic heroes destined to fall (due to the nature of the story and how it starts there is no way to tell the story in which the Jedi Order doesn't fall. It is a predetermined event that MUST happen no matter how you construct the Jedi).

I'm not going to argue that the Jedi Order of the PT is right for everyone, but there is no way your assertion that it's bad holds true. The Jedi Order is only as bad as you want to interpret the material to be. Each person brings their own biases to the table.

As for their inability to see the darkside and stop it ........ you try finding 2 Sith in a galaxy comprised of qaudzillons of people.