My point is that people should (as far as cannon goes) presume someone who got an arm cut off, electrocuted and then thrown off of a building in what was meant to be a moral event horizon for another character is dead unless compelling evidence of them being alive appears.

My question about not accepting Maul's death was just a rhetorical complaint about bringing him back.

No one is building a canon case that Mace survived. We're just saying it's possible for him to have survived. His survival being canon was never on the table at any point in this discussion. Furthermore this isn't really a thread about canon deaths. According to canon all the Jedi were wiped out. We're just discussing how impossible and unlikely that canon fact is actually true in any real sense.

But as I've stated before Star Wars is not really concerned with remaining consistent.

Actually multiple people have said "I think Mace survived" or very close to that. Also has word of god actually said that the Jedi were all wiped out? Because barring that cannon seems to be leaning towards "There are survivors but we'll probably never see them" through Obi-Wan's message at the end of RotS and the use of Luminara's corpse in Rebels.

Kanan survived. Ahsoka survived. Obi-wan survived. Yoda survived. Darth Vader hunting down the Jedi. Inquisitors hunting down Jedi. Lots of evidence of survivors.

Actually multiple people have said "I think Mace survived" or very close to that. Also has word of god actually said that the Jedi were all wiped out? Because barring that cannon seems to be leaning towards "There are survivors but we'll probably never see them" through Obi-Wan's message at the end of RotS and the use of Luminara's corpse in Rebels.

If we're really going to quibble over people saying "I think he survived" as opposed to saying "I think he could survive" (though reading the intent of these post shows that most recognize canon he is dead but that he doesn't have to remain as such) then I insist that it's canon and not cannon.

As for the Jedi Purge itself, the canon accounting of it indicates that there aren't many if any survivors. They certainly treat it as such during the movies. Though ...

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_Purge

Actually multiple people have said "I think Mace survived" or very close to that. Also has word of god actually said that the Jedi were all wiped out? Because barring that cannon seems to be leaning towards "There are survivors but we'll probably never see them" through Obi-Wan's message at the end of RotS and the use of Luminara's corpse in Rebels.

If we're really going to quibble over people saying "I think he survived" as opposed to saying "I think he could survive" (though reading the intent of these post shows that most recognize canon he is dead but that he doesn't have to remain as such) then I insist that it's canon and not cannon.

As for the Jedi Purge itself, the canon accounting of it indicates that there aren't many if any survivors. They certainly treat it as such during the movies. Though ...

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_Purge

Define aren't many. a couple of hundred out of thousands is not many.

Just rewatched wrong jedi. She did not leave with her sabers.

Define aren't many. a couple of hundred out of thousands is not many.

The OT treat the matter as if Obi Wan and Yoda are the last two. As a matter of fact on his death bed Yoda does state fairly plainly that after he's gone Luke will be the last of the Jedi. In my book that counts as a canon source saying the there aren't many if any Jedi left. Though logically (as I argued earlier) this can't be true given other factors that we know of. But we can see from Yoda's statement that at least in the beginning the intent was that all the Jedi were dead.

Define aren't many. a couple of hundred out of thousands is not many.

The OT treat the matter as if Obi Wan and Yoda are the last two. As a matter of fact on his death bed Yoda does state fairly plainly that after he's gone Luke will be the last of the Jedi. In my book that counts as a canon source saying the there aren't many if any Jedi left. Though logically (as I argued earlier) this can't be true given other factors that we know of. But we can see from Yoda's statement that at least in the beginning the intent was that all the Jedi were dead.

yeah. And that was 40 years or so after order 66. That in no way invalidates hundreds of jedi surviving order 66.

Define aren't many. a couple of hundred out of thousands is not many.

The OT treat the matter as if Obi Wan and Yoda are the last two. As a matter of fact on his death bed Yoda does state fairly plainly that after he's gone Luke will be the last of the Jedi. In my book that counts as a canon source saying the there aren't many if any Jedi left. Though logically (as I argued earlier) this can't be true given other factors that we know of. But we can see from Yoda's statement that at least in the beginning the intent was that all the Jedi were dead.

yeah. And that was 40 years or so after order 66. That in no way invalidates hundreds of jedi surviving order 66.

You do realize at no point I am arguing that there aren't suviours right? If the question is what canon sources say then the matter indicates that the only a handful of Jedi survived. By canon sources we can put the number as roughly less than a dozen. But I'm not arguing that that should be the only way to see the matter. And I've argued repeatly in this thread that

A. It makes no sense for the number to be that small due to other factors we see

and

B. That death in this setting is not permanent.

I haven't disagreed with your position. I've just highlighted some inconsistenies on the overall matter.

Define aren't many. a couple of hundred out of thousands is not many.

The OT treat the matter as if Obi Wan and Yoda are the last two. As a matter of fact on his death bed Yoda does state fairly plainly that after he's gone Luke will be the last of the Jedi. In my book that counts as a canon source saying the there aren't many if any Jedi left. Though logically (as I argued earlier) this can't be true given other factors that we know of. But we can see from Yoda's statement that at least in the beginning the intent was that all the Jedi were dead.

yeah. And that was 40 years or so after order 66. That in no way invalidates hundreds of jedi surviving order 66.

You do realize at no point I am arguing that there aren't suviours right? If the question is what canon sources say then the matter indicates that the only a handful of Jedi survived. By canon sources we can put the number as roughly less than a dozen. But I'm not arguing that that should be the only way to see the matter. And I've argued repeatly in this thread that

A. It makes no sense for the number to be that small due to other factors we see

and

B. That death in this setting is not permanent.

I haven't disagreed with your position. I've just highlighted some inconsistenies on the overall matter.

Canon sources do not put it as less than a dozen. Canon sources put it as greater than 5. It in no way puts a cap on the number that escaped. You do not create a whole inquisitorious just to deal with a dozen people.

Canon sources do not put it as less than a dozen. Canon sources put it as greater than 5. It in no way puts a cap on the number that escaped. You do not create a whole inquisitorious just to deal with a dozen people.

Ok ...... again .....

I.am.not.disagreeing.with.your.position.

I'm not sure how much more clear I can make it. Hell ...... a page back I was the first to point out that there had to be a substantial number of Jedi left in order to justify the creation and maintenance of the Inquisitors. Go back and read it, I was like the first to make that specific point.

As for a cap, while it's not logical canon sources has tended to treat the matter as if basically the only ones that survived are the ones we see in canon sources. That's the tendency. It's not logical (or consistent with other story elements, but I'm no longer sure the rest of my points are actually being read anyway) but that's the general feel that canon sources attempt to establish

Canon sources do not put it as less than a dozen. Canon sources put it as greater than 5. It in no way puts a cap on the number that escaped. You do not create a whole inquisitorious just to deal with a dozen people.

Ok ...... again .....

I.am.not.disagreeing.with.your.position.

I'm not sure how much more clear I can make it. Hell ...... a page back I was the first to point out that there had to be a substantial number of Jedi left in order to justify the creation and maintenance of the Inquisitors. Go back and read it, I was like the first to make that specific point.

As for a cap, while it's not logical canon sources has tended to treat the matter as if basically the only ones that survived are the ones we see in canon sources. That's the tendency. It's not logical (or consistent with other story elements, but I'm no longer sure the rest of my points are actually being read anyway) but that's the general feel that canon sources attempt to establish

There is a huge difference between saying these guys survived and saying these are the only guys survived. What canon says is these ones survived. And we have canon implying more survived.

I'm now positive you haven't really read any of my prior points on the matter.

So at any rate ......

As for a cap, while it's not logical canon sources has tended to treat the matter as if basically the only ones that survived are the ones we see in canon sources. That's the tendency. It's not logical (or consistent with other story elements, but I'm no longer sure the rest of my points are actually being read anyway) but that's the general feel that canon sources attempt to establish

I don't think that's true unless by canon you mean the Original Trilogy (for which it definitely is true); the feeling I get from Rebels and RotS is definitely not that the only Jedi survivors are the ones we see. This is, I presume, what you're talking about when you say it's inconsistent and ultimately boils down to the fact that the OT predates attempts at creating a real canon (because at that point Star Wars was a series of films, not a mythology).

As for a cap, while it's not logical canon sources has tended to treat the matter as if basically the only ones that survived are the ones we see in canon sources. That's the tendency. It's not logical (or consistent with other story elements, but I'm no longer sure the rest of my points are actually being read anyway) but that's the general feel that canon sources attempt to establish

I don't think that's true unless by canon you mean the Original Trilogy (for which it definitely is true); the feeling I get from Rebels and RotS is definitely not that the only Jedi survivors are the ones we see. This is, I presume, what you're talking about when you say it's inconsistent and ultimately boils down to the fact that the OT predates attempts at creating a real canon (because at that point Star Wars was a series of films, not a mythology).

I haven't read all the young adult stuff for Rebels or the new novels but in general the bent of even the show Rebels seems to state the Jedi are no more. Tarkin himself says as much when he arrives. He doesn't state a few are left or that a handful remain but they are being hunted down, he pretty pointedly states that they are all dead. Which is fine in some regards, but as I said earlier .... all the Jedi are dead until such time as the story says you need a new survivor. Then there are more Jedi. The overall tone of most of the material wants us to believe that all the Jedi are dead though.

But as I stated numerous times, they are very inconsistent on this issue.

Edit: Frankly the entire way in which they seem to want to treat the Jedi as if they were myths and legends despite the fact that there are plenty of people alive to have seen them in action is another illogical and inconsistent thing they do with the Jedi ......

As for a cap, while it's not logical canon sources has tended to treat the matter as if basically the only ones that survived are the ones we see in canon sources. That's the tendency. It's not logical (or consistent with other story elements, but I'm no longer sure the rest of my points are actually being read anyway) but that's the general feel that canon sources attempt to establish

I don't think that's true unless by canon you mean the Original Trilogy (for which it definitely is true); the feeling I get from Rebels and RotS is definitely not that the only Jedi survivors are the ones we see. This is, I presume, what you're talking about when you say it's inconsistent and ultimately boils down to the fact that the OT predates attempts at creating a real canon (because at that point Star Wars was a series of films, not a mythology).

I haven't read all the young adult stuff for Rebels or the new novels but in general the bent of even the show Rebels seems to state the Jedi are no more. Tarkin himself says as much when he arrives. He doesn't state a few are left or that a handful remain but they are being hunted down, he pretty pointedly states that they are all dead. Which is fine in some regards, but as I said earlier .... all the Jedi are dead until such time as the story says you need a new survivor. Then there are more Jedi. The overall tone of most of the material wants us to believe that all the Jedi are dead though.

But as I stated numerous times, they are very inconsistent on this issue.

Edit: Frankly the entire way in which they seem to want to treat the Jedi as if they were myths and legends despite the fact that there are plenty of people alive to have seen them in action is another illogical and inconsistent thing they do with the Jedi ......

Well, the feelings we get when watching the show differ, I don't think we're getting past that. Totally agree with the point in the edit though.

As for a cap, while it's not logical canon sources has tended to treat the matter as if basically the only ones that survived are the ones we see in canon sources. That's the tendency. It's not logical (or consistent with other story elements, but I'm no longer sure the rest of my points are actually being read anyway) but that's the general feel that canon sources attempt to establish

I don't think that's true unless by canon you mean the Original Trilogy (for which it definitely is true); the feeling I get from Rebels and RotS is definitely not that the only Jedi survivors are the ones we see. This is, I presume, what you're talking about when you say it's inconsistent and ultimately boils down to the fact that the OT predates attempts at creating a real canon (because at that point Star Wars was a series of films, not a mythology).

I haven't read all the young adult stuff for Rebels or the new novels but in general the bent of even the show Rebels seems to state the Jedi are no more. Tarkin himself says as much when he arrives. He doesn't state a few are left or that a handful remain but they are being hunted down, he pretty pointedly states that they are all dead. Which is fine in some regards, but as I said earlier .... all the Jedi are dead until such time as the story says you need a new survivor. Then there are more Jedi. The overall tone of most of the material wants us to believe that all the Jedi are dead though.

But as I stated numerous times, they are very inconsistent on this issue.

Edit: Frankly the entire way in which they seem to want to treat the Jedi as if they were myths and legends despite the fact that there are plenty of people alive to have seen them in action is another illogical and inconsistent thing they do with the Jedi ......

Well yeah. The Jedi as an organization are no more. Have been for a very long time. I think that is part of the trouble. People keep conflating the order and the individuals as the same thing. Just because the order collapsed does not mean every single jedi is dead. Hell the show tells us pretty clearly that no they are not all dead. Because they keep using traps and inquisitors to find the survivors.

Also Jedi are myths and legends to ordinary people who rarely ever saw them even when the order was not destroyed.

Define aren't many. a couple of hundred out of thousands is not many.

The OT treat the matter as if Obi Wan and Yoda are the last two. As a matter of fact on his death bed Yoda does state fairly plainly that after he's gone Luke will be the last of the Jedi. In my book that counts as a canon source saying the there aren't many if any Jedi left. Though logically (as I argued earlier) this can't be true given other factors that we know of. But we can see from Yoda's statement that at least in the beginning the intent was that all the Jedi were dead.

yeah. And that was 40 years or so after order 66. That in no way invalidates hundreds of jedi surviving order 66.

Your number on the years that have passed since Order 66 is... about doubled what it actually is.

As for a cap, while it's not logical canon sources has tended to treat the matter as if basically the only ones that survived are the ones we see in canon sources. That's the tendency. It's not logical (or consistent with other story elements, but I'm no longer sure the rest of my points are actually being read anyway) but that's the general feel that canon sources attempt to establish

I don't think that's true unless by canon you mean the Original Trilogy (for which it definitely is true); the feeling I get from Rebels and RotS is definitely not that the only Jedi survivors are the ones we see. This is, I presume, what you're talking about when you say it's inconsistent and ultimately boils down to the fact that the OT predates attempts at creating a real canon (because at that point Star Wars was a series of films, not a mythology).

I haven't read all the young adult stuff for Rebels or the new novels but in general the bent of even the show Rebels seems to state the Jedi are no more. Tarkin himself says as much when he arrives. He doesn't state a few are left or that a handful remain but they are being hunted down, he pretty pointedly states that they are all dead. Which is fine in some regards, but as I said earlier .... all the Jedi are dead until such time as the story says you need a new survivor. Then there are more Jedi. The overall tone of most of the material wants us to believe that all the Jedi are dead though.

But as I stated numerous times, they are very inconsistent on this issue.

Edit: Frankly the entire way in which they seem to want to treat the Jedi as if they were myths and legends despite the fact that there are plenty of people alive to have seen them in action is another illogical and inconsistent thing they do with the Jedi ......

What I despise most about warfare is the hypocrisy it often breeds. I have heard euphemisms: That we are containing the enemy, that our sector of pacification is growing. These are the tactics of the lie. Lies have the stench of death and defeat.

On a side note, just because a -character- says something in the films, doesn't mean it is true (looking at you Obi Wan). So just because Yoda and Tarkin and whoever else you wanna quote says all the Jedi are gone/dead/whatever, doesn't always make it true.

That being said, As far as canon goes, the number is irrelevant, because it will change depending on the needs of the Mouse.

Regarding the "death of the Jedi," I always took that to mean that the Jedi Order, which had existed for countless generations and was known as defenders of peace and justice was no more, not that each individual Jedi was actually deceased. Granted, Tarkin likes to talk big, but him saying "the Jedi are extinct" is less a statement of "there are no more individual Jedi Knights" but rather that the Jedi as an organization is defunct.

So it's possible for there to be a surprising number of survivors of Order 66. But between the sudden surprise of Order 66 and the storming of the Jedi Temple, the powerbase of the Jedi was shattered and their numbers and resources were greatly diminished. Obviously there are stragglers, likely Padawans and Initiates that slipped through the cracks, thus the presence of the Inquisitors to track down and eliminate such threats. If it's a full-fledged Jedi Knight or even a Jedi Master, the Inquisitors probably hand the case off to Vader and let him deal with such a high-level threat, as the Inquisitor's usual tactics of fear and intimidation wouldn't work against such highly-capable individuals. But in each case, those are individuals and are generally lacking the ability to influence matters on the galactic level the way the old Jedi Order could. Ahsoka is currently the most influential Jedi in canon, and her influence is limited to a collection of Rebel cells that are making harrying attacks on the Empire. Big change from two decades prior when the Jedi Order could directly impact the course of galactic history, either through direct action or by their counsel to highest seats of governmental power.

As for the Jedi and the Force being reduced to "smoke and mirrors" myths, remember that most people in the galaxy spent their entire lives without ever meeting a Jedi, and thus only had second-hand accounts of the things Jedi could do. Also, propaganda is a powerful thing, and Palps' Empire are masters of it. Yeah, you'd still have the old hold-outs that believed in the Force and that the Jedi could actually do some of the things they're attributed of doing, but in the political climate of fear that the Empire built up, for most people it's easer to accept the propaganda and not paint yourself as a dissenter and thus a potential traitor. After a while, the lie becomes easier to accept and rationalize, especially if someone had never seen the Force in action. So in that vein, Han's skepticism about the Force isn't too hard to swallow, since he'd spent his teenage and adult years to that point in a galaxy where the Force was mocked as a hokey religion whose adherents used ancient weapons. The fact that in the most recent Force Awakens trailer we have Han saying "it's true, all of it" about the Jedi and the Force shows that once he'd been presented with the undeniable truth that the Force is real, he no longer mocked it.

On a side note, just because a -character- says something in the films, doesn't mean it is true (looking at you Obi Wan). So just because Yoda and Tarkin and whoever else you wanna quote says all the Jedi are gone/dead/whatever, doesn't always make it true.

That being said, As far as canon goes, the number is irrelevant, because it will change depending on the needs of the Mouse.

I'm going to quote this for emphasis.

Keep in mind, after Palpatine assumes the title of Emperor he immediately begins a propaganda campaign specificly encouraging and forcing people to question the actions and abilities of the Jedi. Propaganda and use of the media are powerful tools, add in all the systems that didn't receive help during the war, or were hardcore ravaged...all of the sudden people start remembering things differently.

"Hey, the Sepertist leader was a Jedi...he had one of those light sword things."

"Today, class, we will discuss how a cult once tried to overthrow our Emperor"

"You know, the reason the galactic economy sucks is because we're still paying for those clones, that the Jedi ordered."

It would be easy for them to make people forget. Just look at our society, we jump from fad to fad on a moments whim, forgetting about the last one in rather short order.

Final thought, most Jedi that survived and went into hiding would do their damndest to avoid being seen/discovered to protect anyone around them. Or go into hardcore isolation like Obi-Wan and Yoda.

Just my two credits though.

Also, propaganda is a powerful thing, and Palps' Empire are masters of it.

We have so many examples of this in our own history, I think to discount it is a grave disservice to the storytelling of this fictional universe.

The Jedi order is the Star Wars Universe equivalent to the Knights Templar. Maligned, funding seized or stolen and executed ruthlessly by a monarch that feared their power-base.

I would also like to add, that as an RPG and my game, I couldn't care less about what canon says, because me and my friends are telling our stories, and this debate has begun to feel very silly to me.

Also, just a random thought, but what about all the "failed younglings" that joined the Medcorps, Agrocorps, etc? We've learned from other EU sources that even those weak in the force can eventually become proficient and strong in the force, given time and inclination. We've never heard how they were affected by Order 66. It's theoretically possible that a number of them survived.

According to the Empire all the Jedi are dead.

A statement we know to be factually untrue as Yoda and Obiwan are Known to be alive.

So Tarken can claim all the Jedi are dead as much as he wants hell he might even believe it, but its obviously false.

How many Jedi are left is unknown its probably in the low hundreds. Its not going to be a handful. In Thousands of worlds with millions of people on each planet it is very likely that a few hundred Jedi from Masters to Padawans survived the Purge. Are some of those in hiding? Sure is the Empire ignoring some of them? probably. Are some of them running from the Empire? Definitely. Does the Empire have its own Force talented non sith groups or even sith groups? Hell yes.

Also, just a random thought, but what about all the "failed younglings" that joined the Medcorps, Agrocorps, etc? We've learned from other EU sources that even those weak in the force can eventually become proficient and strong in the force, given time and inclination. We've never heard how they were affected by Order 66. It's theoretically possible that a number of them survived.

Where do you think the inquisitors came from? The one in Rebels hinted at this fact.