-wrong thread-

Wamahordes and Malifaux have at least 7 factions. 40k has... an absurd number of them post-6th edition. X-wing? 2 to start, now 3. To keep the metagame shifting, regular updtes are necessary, and since there are only 3 faction, you'd be seeing new splatbooks every six months.

So just get the balance right the first time, and don't worry about adjusting the meta all the time. It's not necessary, especially for a game with as short a lifespan as X Wing.

Your plan is genius in its diabolic simplicity.

As I said, a software solution would be ideal. Like an app that can be updated every time new models are released, or when some rule is updated. But I suppose that the gaming community isn't yet ready for that, although some squadbuilding sites basically do this already.

Wamahordes and Malifaux have at least 7 factions. 40k has... an absurd number of them post-6th edition. X-wing? 2 to start, now 3. To keep the metagame shifting, regular updtes are necessary, and since there are only 3 faction, you'd be seeing new splatbooks every six months.

So just get the balance right the first time, and don't worry about adjusting the meta all the time. It's not necessary, especially for a game with as short a lifespan as X Wing.

As I said, a software solution would be ideal. Like an app that can be updated every time new models are released, or when some rule is updated. But I suppose that the gaming community isn't yet ready for that, although some squadbuilding sites basically do this already.

*Actual term used in discussing last adopters of tech, not meant as insult.

When was the last time you saw a y-wing with just torps on the field?

That's because for the most part torps suck. FFG has tried to fix them in just about every release so far, but still nothing. I'm fairly well convinced that's because of a flaw in the basic system behind Ord in general.

But until FFG is willing to completely rewrite the rules for them, the best we get are more bandaids.

When was the last time you saw a y-wing with just torps on the field?

That's because for the most part torps suck. FFG has tried to fix them in just about every release so far, but still nothing. I'm fairly well convinced that's because of a flaw in the basic system behind Ord in general.

But until FFG is willing to completely rewrite the rules for them, the best we get are more bandaids.

You know I admitted it was a flawed basis in the next paragraph, but way to go, I thought it would be impossible to miss the point but you managed it. Good work.

There wouldn't be an "every time" because you'd release all pilots, ships and upgrades at once, same as a GW codex. None of this adding new units all the time sillyness.

This must be the first time in my life that I hear somebody hinting that the GW way might be less expensive and better for the customers.

Taking into account that GW is THE company that squeezes the most out of its customers with ridiculous marketing strategies (which for whatever reasons kinda work) I believe that this was not the best example how FFG could/should do it :-)

FFG is doing it right - not perfect, but quite good. The cards are perfect for this format (although there will always be players that will miss out on cards because they don't collect all factions).

FFG is doing it right - not perfect, but quite good. The cards are perfect for this format (although there will always be players that will miss out on cards because they don't collect all factions).

There really should be an easier way to get 4 autothrusters and 4 TLTs. At least we're getting 3PO soon.

FFG is doing it right - not perfect, but quite good. The cards are perfect for this format (although there will always be players that will miss out on cards because they don't collect all factions).

There really should be an easier way to get 4 autothrusters and 4 TLTs. At least we're getting 3PO soon.

This must be the first time in my life that I hear somebody hinting that the GW way might be less expensive and better for the customers.

Taking into account that GW is THE company that squeezes the most out of its customers with ridiculous marketing strategies (which for whatever reasons kinda work) I believe that this was not the best example how FFG could/should do it :-)

GW may be horrible overall - and believe me, I'm NEVER one to defend them - but FFG is honestly quickly approaching them. They've become absolute masters at making players buy things they don't want or need in order to get the bits that they do.

Honestly, if GW is more expensive than X-wing it's only because the game is designed around more models, not because they're inherently cheaper. Someone in a recent thread helpfully priced out the standard DeciFel build at around $210. Most of that cost comes from cards which you can't really get without buying models. So that's for a game scaled to two models. What would happen if Epic became the new norm? Make the standard 400 points? Where does the cost of the game land then? I do appreciate that the overall cost of the game includes the designed play size, but gouging customers applies to far more than the final cost. FFG works smaller scale, but I'd call an $800 GW army a more value-appropriate purchase than $210 worth of DeciFel.

And FWIW, an actual majority of GW's games (over history, if we mournfully included the canceled) can be played well within that range. Blood Bowl, Necromunda, Dreadfleet, BFG, maybe LOTR... all are minis games which aren't that far off. All sadly discontinued (which is unfortunate, because they're some of the best GW ever made) and that's a big part of why I can't stand GW... but FFG really isn't some paragon of value to the player.

And just to stay a little on-topic: Costing around synergy is actually pretty easy. You cost an item for its most efficient use, and it's up to players to discover that or accept the handicap. There's not really any other way to do it, because underpowered makes for a useless item while overpowered breaks the game.

I think most of the upgrades are fine. It's a select few that are broken (FCS and C-3PO and Engine Upgrade on large ships, VI on high pilot skills, etc.) but they're not the real problem.

The problem is power combos. Gunner and HLC and FCS on a Lambda, not a problem because of how much of a dumb boat the Lambda is. Gunner and FCS and ACD on a Phantom, that's the problem. Or the long list of dumb **** a 55/58 point Super Dash can do.

So like what you said in the OP, it's the synergies that the designers have to watch out for. They should have done a better job weeding them out with things like the Phantom and Super Dash. FCS stacks way too well with ships that can attack twice, should have given the TL at the end of the end phase.

I'm scared of what the Jumpmaster dial will be. Having an asymmetrical dial would have been cool, except with unhinged Astromech you're just going to get 3 green banks in either direction anyways. >_>

This game is more fun when things have limitations and hoops they have to jump through. When a ship has cool, interesting limitations that can be immediately ignored upon release it's annoying.

Cloak mechanic adds a lot to the game? Hey, let's take all of the decision making and downsides of cloaking right out of the game with ACD.

A turret ship with a cannon? Isn't that cool, a turret that has incentives to get something in its primary arc. Haha, nope, here is the Outrider title.

Ship with an asymmetrical dial? That's fresh and interesting. Just kidding, with unhinged Astromech it can just green in both directions anyways. Also 3 dice turret card.

I think most of the upgrades are fine. It's a select few that are broken (FCS and C-3PO and Engine Upgrade on large ships, VI on high pilot skills, etc.) but they're not the real problem.

The problem is power combos. Gunner and HLC and FCS on a Lambda, not a problem because of how much of a dumb boat the Lambda is. Gunner and FCS and ACD on a Phantom, that's the problem. Or the long list of dumb **** a 55/58 point Super Dash can do.

So like what you said in the OP, it's the synergies that the designers have to watch out for. They should have done a better job weeding them out with things like the Phantom and Super Dash. FCS stacks way too well with ships that can attack twice, should have given the TL at the end of the end phase.

I'm scared of what the Jumpmaster dial will be. Having an asymmetrical dial would have been cool, except with unhinged Astromech you're just going to get 3 green banks in either direction anyways. >_>

This game is more fun when things have limitations and hoops they have to jump through. When a ship has cool, interesting limitations that can be immediately ignored upon release it's annoying.

Cloak mechanic adds a lot to the game? Hey, let's take all of the decision making and downsides of cloaking right out of the game with ACD.

A turret ship with a cannon? Isn't that cool, a turret that has incentives to get something in its primary arc. Haha, nope, here is the Outrider title.

Ship with an asymmetrical dial? That's fresh and interesting. Just kidding, with unhinged Astromech it can just green in both directions anyways. Also 3 dice turret card.

You underestimate FFG. The more I think about it, the more I believe the Pogostick won't have any 3 speed manouvers into its weak direction.

I still feel certain ships having certain upgrade discounts should be more common place (I'm looking at you bombers).

I think most of the upgrades are fine. It's a select few that are broken (FCS and C-3PO and Engine Upgrade on large ships, VI on high pilot skills, etc.) but they're not the real problem.

The problem is power combos. Gunner and HLC and FCS on a Lambda, not a problem because of how much of a dumb boat the Lambda is. Gunner and FCS and ACD on a Phantom, that's the problem.

FCS on the Phantom always bugged me because it is the only ship with a system slot that does NOT have the TL action on its bar. To add the Target Lock action to the Phantom's bar it should have to use the mod slot and 2 points to take Targeting Computer. But wait! Instead It can take FCS for the same 2 points and still take ACD.

I wonder if the 'Phantom Nerf' would have been necessary if the original FCS card had said, "must have the TL icon to equip."

Short Lifespan? I'm not sure you have the same desires for the game as I do. Certainly not what FFG seems to want, anyway.

The game has only been around a couple of years and we're not just scraping the bottom of the EU barrel, we've broken through it and been digging for a couple of turns of now.

How do you think this game will look in another ten years? Another twenty?

This isn't a game that can have a constant release rate. The current release schedule is unsustainable over the long term. I fully expect FFG to see out their licence until after the new movies are released, then let it lapse.

This must be the first time in my life that I hear somebody hinting that the GW way might be less expensive and better for the customers.

On a model per model basis, 40K is way cheaper than X Wing.

But X Wing only needs a handful of models to play. A tiny fraction of the models you'd need for 40K.

But when you buy a 40K Codex, you get all the rules you need to use any of the models or upgrades in your faction. And you don't need multiple copies of them to equip multiple copies of those upgrades.

A roster system, rather than cards, would have been MUCH more customer friendly. But because you only need a handful of models to play, it wouldn't have made FFG as much money, and so we got cards. Which are conveniently packaged across different factions and with different ships, requiring a lot of expenditure to get all the good ones.

There's no "need" for cards unless you are a tournament player - which most X-Wing players are not! I'm not here to defend FFG, they make as much money as they can too, I'm sure (companies tend to do that), but I observe the GW craziness for more than 20 years (I actually started playing with Rogue Trader, the very first version of 40k) and to say you need one Codex and that's it... hell no, only til there's a new version of the basic rules, or of the Dex, or whatever - and that's even when you are not going to tournaments. If you play casual and don't give much about the Meta (and such no need to have the newest combo) you are ok with the cards (of course it's easy to say for me, since I have every ship, many in multiples, just to be able to play large games - still, we have Rebel or Imperial only players here too, and they don't seem to lack anything).

Of course that's quite OT... :-( sorry

There's no "need" for cards unless you are a tournament player - which most X-Wing players are not! I'm not here to defend FFG, they make as much money as they can too, I'm sure (companies tend to do that), but I observe the GW craziness for more than 20 years (I actually started playing with Rogue Trader, the very first version of 40k) and to say you need one Codex and that's it... hell no, only til there's a new version of the basic rules, or of the Dex, or whatever - and that's even when you are not going to tournaments. If you play casual and don't give much about the Meta (and such no need to have the newest combo) you are ok with the cards (of course it's easy to say for me, since I have every ship, many in multiples, just to be able to play large games - still, we have Rebel or Imperial only players here too, and they don't seem to lack anything).

X-wing honestly doesn't even need ships - one starter set to get the templates, a few bases and plates to provide arcs, and you're done.

Everything you say applies to 40K (or really any other game) is just as true for X-wing. I had a friend who used to play 40K with chess pieces marked with yarn in place of models. Bases with names would cover it pretty well, as would shared or downloaded rulebooks, and the models in Fantasy were typically little more than counters that could easily be replaced with a dial while a labeled movement tray marked the unit.

With a few exceptions, the limit of a player's ability to proxy is entirely on the player. So when you're discussing the differences in how games are produced/sold, you really can't pick a proxy/replacement/cheapifying option for only one game. It's not an even comparison. So, you really need to compare only how the games are actually sold.

All that said, I think the core issue that many people are having is that a model that felt super friendly to the customer in Wave 1 has begun showing its weight by Wave 7. X-wing's low cost always came more from the model count than anything else, but as the ship count has gotten larger and larger the purchase spread has begun to overwhelm that. I think that's hard to see for players who have everything up to this point, but the upgrade hunt is something that is becoming a major pain point for new players.