I'm GMing for a group who picked the base option for their Rebel resource to start with instead of the shuttle or Y-Wings. It was partly because they fancied a change (we've been planet-hopping in Star Wars RPGs since West End Games' system in the early 90s) and partly because no-one wanted to be "designated driver" this time around. Of course being able to get around the galaxy is still important at times, so the players have been looking at getting a ship for one of their Contribution Rank rewards (they certainly don't have enough money to buy one in cash). They've just hit Contribution Rank 2 at the end of last session, so I've been looking over the books I have (all 3 core books, both AoR career books and Dangerous Covenants + Fly Casual).

It seems to me like basing ship selection on Rarity isn't a good way to define what the PCs can get. Contribution Rank 2 means up to Rarity 5. From the AoR core alone that allows the players to get a CR90 Corvette, a capital ship (a small one, but still), with a crew of 30-165. Alternatively, there's the Consular-class cruiser, a slightly more modest choice with only 8 crew and half of those listed as "engineers" so a larger group could probably manage themselves with a bit of droid assistance - but that's a ship with a 3.4 MILLION price tag.

So I have a few issues and questions.

1 - the Contribution Rank guidelines table (AoR p.325) lists ranks 5-8 as "access to corvette/gunship-level starships" and lieutenant to captain rank, but - if the GM allows such ships at all - they're available much earlier. Heck, Rank 3 technically covers a Dreadnought (Rarity 6). The rules and text just don't match here. Maybe gunship- and cruiser-class vehicles and up are a special case that should require Rank=Rarity, not (Rank+3)=Rarity? Although that still leaves awkward edge cases, like the Gozanti which is listed under "Freighters and Transports" in Fly Casual but under Cruisers in AoR.

The "Managing Alliance Rewards" section on p.326 seems to cover this area with the note that "If the GM does not want to run a campaign focused on large-scale starship combat, he may decide that the Rebellion does not have ships of this scale, or the crews to man them, to spare." This raises a few more questions:

2 - does this mean that ships granted with Contribution rank come with crew, if they require more crew than the number of PCs? If so, that seems to imply that the reward is more of a command posting on an Alliance ship than the group actually owning it. But again, that makes getting corvettes from Contribution an even better reward than forking out the cash to buy one. It also invites the question of what exactly is the PCs position on the ship? Is one PC the captain and the others his command staff, or is there an NPC captain at their disposal?

3 - speaking of which, if the PCs took a ship they can run themselves, what would be to stop them just selling the thing? Even if they get stiffed on the sale price (maybe the transponder ID has been flagged as stolen or a known Rebel ship) and only get 10% of the price, that's a lot of money. Heck, if they did that with a Republic cruiser, even 1% of the value would be more money than they could ever likely spend on personal gear. It's not really in the spirit of the game and my players are good enough that they wouldn't do it if I reminded them of that, but it just highlights the odd mismatch of Rebel rewards being so generous with ships but stingy with personal gear.

4 - where to draw the line between what's appropriate and what's not? There's not, as far as I can see, a massive difference in combat effectiveness between a CR70 Corvette and a Gozanti and some of the more combat-focused Silhouette 4 ships (considering the innate advantages of Sil 4 over Sil 5). So far I've recommended the VT-49 Decimator (from Fly Casual) to my players for their next Contribution Rank but it's a bit of a grey area whether it's not just a pocket gunship; but again it's not much more potent than a YT-whatever with its hardpoints filled up with stuff.

So I'd welcome opinions and any experience anyone has to offer. Maybe I'm overthinking this, but it's a little frustrating that the guidelines and advice in the book range from unhelpfully vague to downright contradictory.

I don't have much help to offer on this other than to say I agree with you and I feel your pain. I really hope this is addressed in greater detail in a future AoR book.

I think the devs wanted to provide a method of allowing PCs to get a big ship for Commodores and such without locking every group into having the option to get an MC80...

Just a thought.... If the players went with a base, why not have the CR provide the base with a hanger or dirt strip that sees regular traffic? Instead of giving them A ship of those own you can instead grant access to the ship (and captain/crew) of the week? That way you can play with it, try out different craft, and there's a built in reason why it changes regularly. One adventure its a CR90 with a naval crew, the next a tricked out YT with a shady captain, the next its a captured imperial assault shuttle and the spec ops team that boosted it...

How my group usually houserules this is Rank 2 allows any Sil 5 ships with 50 or fewer crew, rank, rank three covers any Sil 5s, Rank 4 allows Sil 6, rank 5 and 6 Sil 7, and rank 7 Sil 8. Sometimes we'll move ship classes up or down based on age. Generally a ship consider outdated, which is basically all the rebels have for Sil 7 atm, becomes an option one rank lower while one considered highly advanced is one higher.

Of course in our naval focused campagins we usually start with something from our rank 2 list because in Our opinion a starter Commodore being a Lieutenant rather then an Ensign is feasible. I still don't know why they have two Lieutenant slots on the rank chart rather then one Lieutenant and one Lieutenant Commander or Junior Lieutenant and Lieutenant.

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For certain ships, I'd think a minimum rank (as in military rank with the Alliance) would be a prerequisite to being assigned the ship and crew. Thankfully, Contribution Rank rewards could be spent on gaining promotions.

Also the wording "access to corvette/gunship-level starships". I interpret that as they can have it as a resource they can call upon, rather than it is -their- ship.

Thanks all for the responses.

I don't have much help to offer on this other than to say I agree with you and I feel your pain. I really hope this is addressed in greater detail in a future AoR book.

Hopefully the Commander sourcebook will help out here in the same way that the Diplomat book helped with rebel bases.

I think the devs wanted to provide a method of allowing PCs to get a big ship for Commodores and such without locking every group into having the option to get an MC80...


Just a thought.... If the players went with a base, why not have the CR provide the base with a hanger or dirt strip that sees regular traffic? Instead of giving them A ship of those own you can instead grant access to the ship (and captain/crew) of the week? That way you can play with it, try out different craft, and there's a built in reason why it changes regularly. One adventure its a CR90 with a naval crew, the next a tricked out YT with a shady captain, the next its a captured imperial assault shuttle and the spec ops team that boosted it...

I had considered the possibility of having a crewed ship like a corvette or something be assigned for occasional service as Rank reward but have other duties making it unavailable sometimes, but I really like your airstrip idea instead for more variety. That way the players won't get a warship every time, but they might get something else instead and have to make do with what they have available at the time. It could be fun to make a roll for it with their Rank as ability dice against difficulty based on Rarity of the ship they request.

How my group usually houserules this is Rank 2 allows any Sil 5 ships with 50 or fewer crew, rank, rank three covers any Sil 5s, Rank 4 allows Sil 6, rank 5 and 6 Sil 7, and rank 7 Sil 8. Sometimes we'll move ship classes up or down based on age. Generally a ship consider outdated, which is basically all the rebels have for Sil 7 atm, becomes an option one rank lower while one considered highly advanced is one higher.

Of course in our naval focused campagins we usually start with something from our rank 2 list because in Our opinion a starter Commodore being a Lieutenant rather then an Ensign is feasible. I still don't know why they have two Lieutenant slots on the rank chart rather then one Lieutenant and one Lieutenant Commander or Junior Lieutenant and Lieutenant.

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That houserule looks more sensible than the rule in the book. You also touched on another thing I've been indecisive about, the fact that one of the PCs is a Commander/Tactician but by the Contribution Rank table in the book should still be an enlisted rank. So far I've just dodged the issue by having the PCs sit more or less outside the regular military chain of command, but as their base starts to grow I'll need to make a decision - I think I'll peg the other PCs as Warrant Officers but let the Commander be a Captain (in the Army sense) once their positions are confirmed.

I guess it all starts with how you frame your campaign. I ignored the table suggestions regarding ranks. Our campaign is centered around teams of SpecForce and SpecOps working to disrupt Imperial operations along major hyperspace routes to allow the Rebel fleet to displace to Echo Base after the Battle of Yavin, so we have a lieutenant, sergeants, and some SpecOps freelance agents.

While they maintain a low signature, my group is currently going through the some of the same issues. I actually started them with no group resource whatsoever for the first several sessions. Now, they are setting up their group resource to be a base of operations that will combine the rules from Desperate Allies and Far Horizons (we have a mixed campaign that uses both Duty and Obligation). This new base of operations is going to be a front business and their operational cover.

The group will use their contribution rank to obtain a ship. I will allow them to acquire any transport/freighter/patrol boat with the appropriate rarity, and I consider capital ship-use to be a story element or a temporary use of the Strategic Resource. Lucky for me, the group is thinking practically. 'What kind of ship supports our cover?'

Thanks all for the responses.

I don't have much help to offer on this other than to say I agree with you and I feel your pain. I really hope this is addressed in greater detail in a future AoR book.

Hopefully the Commander sourcebook will help out here in the same way that the Diplomat book helped with rebel bases.

I think the devs wanted to provide a method of allowing PCs to get a big ship for Commodores and such without locking every group into having the option to get an MC80...

Just a thought.... If the players went with a base, why not have the CR provide the base with a hanger or dirt strip that sees regular traffic? Instead of giving them A ship of those own you can instead grant access to the ship (and captain/crew) of the week? That way you can play with it, try out different craft, and there's a built in reason why it changes regularly. One adventure its a CR90 with a naval crew, the next a tricked out YT with a shady captain, the next its a captured imperial assault shuttle and the spec ops team that boosted it...

I had considered the possibility of having a crewed ship like a corvette or something be assigned for occasional service as Rank reward but have other duties making it unavailable sometimes, but I really like your airstrip idea instead for more variety. That way the players won't get a warship every time, but they might get something else instead and have to make do with what they have available at the time. It could be fun to make a roll for it with their Rank as ability dice against difficulty based on Rarity of the ship they request.

How my group usually houserules this is Rank 2 allows any Sil 5 ships with 50 or fewer crew, rank, rank three covers any Sil 5s, Rank 4 allows Sil 6, rank 5 and 6 Sil 7, and rank 7 Sil 8. Sometimes we'll move ship classes up or down based on age. Generally a ship consider outdated, which is basically all the rebels have for Sil 7 atm, becomes an option one rank lower while one considered highly advanced is one higher.

Of course in our naval focused campagins we usually start with something from our rank 2 list because in Our opinion a starter Commodore being a Lieutenant rather then an Ensign is feasible. I still don't know why they have two Lieutenant slots on the rank chart rather then one Lieutenant and one Lieutenant Commander or Junior Lieutenant and Lieutenant.

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That houserule looks more sensible than the rule in the book. You also touched on another thing I've been indecisive about, the fact that one of the PCs is a Commander/Tactician but by the Contribution Rank table in the book should still be an enlisted rank. So far I've just dodged the issue by having the PCs sit more or less outside the regular military chain of command, but as their base starts to grow I'll need to make a decision - I think I'll peg the other PCs as Warrant Officers but let the Commander be a Captain (in the Army sense) once their positions are confirmed.

Yeah we also houseruled our rank structure to have full separate enlisted and officer tracks. If a PC wants to start as an enlisted rank and stay there or start as an officer great but if a PC wants to start as an enlistee then become an officer later we allow that as well we just don't have it set so one is forced to start as an enlistee and become a mustang to be an officer.

I have always thought of getting a new specialisation (or being a starting PC) as being like a new apprentice, a basic aptitude but no experience and no responsibility. Or in the case of the Comander career the rebellion probably don't have time or resources to train commanders at college for 4 years. so they are selected due to natural talent and a past that's given them some experience. Then they go do very basic training, after which they get assigned a position on board a ship in which they are expected to learn the ropes through following a commanding officer around.

I think the devs wanted to provide a method of allowing PCs to get a big ship for Commodores and such without locking every group into having the option to get an MC80...

Just a thought.... If the players went with a base, why not have the CR provide the base with a hanger or dirt strip that sees regular traffic? Instead of giving them A ship of those own you can instead grant access to the ship (and captain/crew) of the week? That way you can play with it, try out different craft, and there's a built in reason why it changes regularly. One adventure its a CR90 with a naval crew, the next a tricked out YT with a shady captain, the next its a captured imperial assault shuttle and the spec ops team that boosted it...

I think this is a real good idea. It provides a lot of variety in terms of ships and NPC's for the players to bond with plus can present interesting challenges along the way. Like ...... how are they supposed to get home when their ride decides it too dangerous to stick around and they aren't being compensated enough to risk their neck.

I have always thought of getting a new specialisation (or being a starting PC) as being like a new apprentice, a basic aptitude but no experience and no responsibility. Or in the case of the Comander career the rebellion probably don't have time or resources to train commanders at college for 4 years. so they are selected due to natural talent and a past that's given them some experience. Then they go do very basic training, after which they get assigned a position on board a ship in which they are expected to learn the ropes through following a commanding officer around.

That's a lot like how Alliance Naval officer candidates were trained in Legends actually. After basic they were rated as Midshipmen, also the lowest Naval officer rank on my groups homemade rank chart, then rotate through various postings such as watch officer and helping with maintenance while also studying battles the ship has fought in and asking officers why they made the decisions they did.

The Alliance Special Forces have a small academy but it only last six months.

Fighter pilots usually get a course of sim and live flight training but when short on pilots the Alliance sends trainee pilots into combat. Luke for example just got a few hours of sim training before Yavin.

Also the wording "access to corvette/gunship-level starships". I interpret that as they can have it as a resource they can call upon, rather than it is -their- ship.

This.

Also:

"Here take this Nebulon Fregate." - "But Admiral...my team is composed of 3 People???" - "That's why it's called running a clean ship." Bah-dum-tiss yeah, I'll sit in this corner, no need to tell me.

Personally, I'd treat as that while the PCs can obtain such a large ship through their Contribution Rank, said ship does not come with the necessary crew. If the PCs want a full crew as well, then simply employ GM fiat to up the effective Rarity of the ship by 2 or even 3 for the really big cruisers like a Nebulon-B or MC-80.

The Alliance is noted time and again to be short on pretty much everything but the enemy, so it'd take a pretty loyal and capable team of operatives for the brass to sign off on not only giving them full command of one of their precious few capital ships but the crew to staff it with.

Also the wording "access to corvette/gunship-level starships". I interpret that as they can have it as a resource they can call upon, rather than it is -their- ship.

This.

Also:

"Here take this Nebulon Fregate." - "But Admiral...my team is composed of 3 People???" - "That's why it's called running a clean ship." Bah-dum-tiss yeah, I'll sit in this corner, no need to tell me.

More people should of liked that joke, phenomenal and will be worked into my next run somehow, some way.

Personally, I'd treat as that while the PCs can obtain such a large ship through their Contribution Rank, said ship does not come with the necessary crew. If the PCs want a full crew as well, then simply employ GM fiat to up the effective Rarity of the ship by 2 or even 3 for the really big cruisers like a Nebulon-B or MC-80.

The Alliance is noted time and again to be short on pretty much everything but the enemy, so it'd take a pretty loyal and capable team of operatives for the brass to sign off on not only giving them full command of one of their precious few capital ships but the crew to staff it with.

So they can take a ship but be unable to crew it? What's the rarity of a crew? For that matter, what's the rarity of a unit of infantry or or a support section for a starfighter squadron? There's so much of the CR rewards aspect of this game that could use work...

Personally, I'd treat as that while the PCs can obtain such a large ship through their Contribution Rank, said ship does not come with the necessary crew. If the PCs want a full crew as well, then simply employ GM fiat to up the effective Rarity of the ship by 2 or even 3 for the really big cruisers like a Nebulon-B or MC-80.

The Alliance is noted time and again to be short on pretty much everything but the enemy, so it'd take a pretty loyal and capable team of operatives for the brass to sign off on not only giving them full command of one of their precious few capital ships but the crew to staff it with.

So they can take a ship but be unable to crew it? What's the rarity of a crew? For that matter, what's the rarity of a unit of infantry or or a support section for a starfighter squadron? There's so much of the CR rewards aspect of this game that could use work...

Like much of the game, the designers opted to leave in the hands of the individual GM rather than take the WotC D&D 3.X approach and try to spell it all out. Given you've been part of these forums and playing the system since the early days, I would have thought it'd be pretty clear that FFG isn't about holding an individual GM's hand every step of the way, and instead prefers to give each GM the freedom to handle things as they see fit, tailored to their individual group. Their answer pretty much from the beginning on the many grey areas of the rules has generally been "it's up to the GM."

As I said in my post above, my suggestion was to go with a guideline of if the PCs want a ship and crew as part of their Contribution Rank reward, then up the Rarity of the ship by 2 or 3, figuring that covers a crew that is properly trained and at least knows the basic ins and outs of that model of ship. I figure it's a decent stopgap for GMs that don't want to deal with the minutiae of the PCs trying to find, hire, and train a proper crew for a ship but like the OP don't want to just hand over a capital ship with a full crew at some of the lower Contribution Ranks.

Personally, I'd treat as that while the PCs can obtain such a large ship through their Contribution Rank, said ship does not come with the necessary crew. If the PCs want a full crew as well, then simply employ GM fiat to up the effective Rarity of the ship by 2 or even 3 for the really big cruisers like a Nebulon-B or MC-80.

The Alliance is noted time and again to be short on pretty much everything but the enemy, so it'd take a pretty loyal and capable team of operatives for the brass to sign off on not only giving them full command of one of their precious few capital ships but the crew to staff it with.

So they can take a ship but be unable to crew it? What's the rarity of a crew? For that matter, what's the rarity of a unit of infantry or or a support section for a starfighter squadron? There's so much of the CR rewards aspect of this game that could use work...

Like much of the game, the designers opted to leave in the hands of the individual GM rather than take the WotC D&D 3.X approach and try to spell it all out. Given you've been part of these forums and playing the system since the early days, I would have thought it'd be pretty clear that FFG isn't about holding an individual GM's hand every step of the way, and instead prefers to give each GM the freedom to handle things as they see fit, tailored to their individual group. Their answer pretty much from the beginning on the many grey areas of the rules has generally been "it's up to the GM."

As I said in my post above, my suggestion was to go with a guideline of if the PCs want a ship and crew as part of their Contribution Rank reward, then up the Rarity of the ship by 2 or 3, figuring that covers a crew that is properly trained and at least knows the basic ins and outs of that model of ship. I figure it's a decent stopgap for GMs that don't want to deal with the minutiae of the PCs trying to find, hire, and train a proper crew for a ship but like the OP don't want to just hand over a capital ship with a full crew at some of the lower Contribution Ranks.

Well, they have expanded the ideas of Homesteads and Bases, so i'm keeping my fingers crossed that we'll see more on this particular area. While I couldn't say if i was playtesting such rules, I can say that I'm currently not.

Homesteads and Bases were core elements of a sourcebook, Far Horizons and Desperate Allies respectively.

How to go about staffing a starship that's received as a Contribution Rank reward is minutiae, and for some GMs not even something that needs addressing. And in regards to what ships get awarded, the GM always has final say, and can easily justify disallowing the bigger ships on the basis that the Alliance doesn't have anything in that class that they can spare to a rag-tag group of operatives. Light freighters are fairly cheap, easy to replace, and generally don't stand out. Combat-ready capital ships are a whole 'nother story, and will stand out like a circus clown at a rainy day funeral.

If the GM isn't comfortable with their group of wandering troubleshooters having command of a capital ship, or honestly feels it would de-rail the campaign, then the GM has the right to say "sorry guys, I can't allow you to have a cap ship right now, please pick something else that won't potentially cause the whole campaign to implode." And unless the players are bunch of ungrateful jerks, that shouldn't be a game-ender for them, especially if the GM is willing to re-consider the request later on at a higher Contribution Rank (thus my suggestion to simply raise the Rarity value by 2 or 3 points to account for getting a fully-qualified crew as well as the ship).

It could also very well be that FFG deliberately left it vague to account for the Commodore specialization, who in general terms is all about commanding large ship. Thus, the Rebellion Reward being set-up the way they are so that a campaign based around the PCs eventually being in command of a cruiser enables them to get that command sooner rather than later, with the GM of said campaign then hand-waving the need to find a crew, with further Contribution Rank increases showing them eventually being given command of the bigger and more valuable ships, akin to Captain Picard starting out with the fairly dinky Stargazer exploration ship before getting command of the Enterprise, which is pretty much the Federation's flagship.

Here's my two ceticreds worth on the topic.

Earning rewards of ships could refer to taking official command. The ship has a crew and remains the property of the Alliance, they are just letting you borrow it for a while. If they are transitioning to a new ship they cant sell the last one, it either goes back to the Alliance for reassignment or an NPC takes command and the last ship becomes a member of the fleet the larger ship commands, if it wasn't part of that fleet all along. In a naval setting crewmen and officers are traded around all the time and while a ship may belong to a certain fleet it might be sent out a great distance from that fleet on a special assignment. Also ships might be traded between fleets. All of that can be reasons for the PCs being promoted up to larger ships with changing fleet dynamics. Keep in mind, as they gain in fame from raw recruit to something like Luke Skywalker's level of renown the kinds of missions they perform will drastically change. Han Solo isn't going to go on a supply run to a small base on the outskirts of the Alliance and get wrapped up in tracking down a two bit Empire spy. He is going to be sent on more public missions where intrigue and deception play a greater part. He will arrive with more than just the Falcon, most likely the Falcon would be used as his private shuttle and he will travel with a security detail made up of personal friends and several NPCs. Part of the difficulty of the adventure should be for Solo and his friends figuring how to sneak away and keep from being recognized, not for fear of the Empire but for the inconvenience his fame. Autograph seekers, people wanting a holovid of him shaking their hand, females seeking to mate with him and lunatics wanting to tell him of their conspiracy theories about the Emperor.

Another way they could "have" a ship is to be Special Agents reporting directly to that ships Captain. Still the same kind of crew and connection to the Alliance, but with less responsibilities. The ship is somewhat at their beck and call since their reports to the Captain would likely direct the ship to the next port of call and affect their next mission. However the vessel could be called away by Alliance Command in the middle of a mission leaving them with a shuttle and a few NPCs.

From what I see in the referenced charts is actually pretty reasonable, as long as everyone understands that the PC's don't own the ship or the base. They are simply assigned that resource by the Alliance just like blasters and speeders.

I like the idea that Contribution rewards can include the needed personnel to operate the vehicle. This allows, for example, an Ace the option of taking a second fighter as his wingman rather than just upgrading his own fighter. At the higher levels, it also allows use of capital ships which a group of PCs could never personally crew entirely on their own.

Speaking of homestead and base rules, I've been thinking that the base upgrade rules from Desperate Allies could be repurposed to patch the capital ships that are underpriced by rarity. Claiming such a ship as contribution rank reward might only grant the hull and most essential systems (like life support and engines), and other things cost base upgrade points (that is, spending a contribution rank grants one thing for each point of rank). So kitting out a CR90 corvette with it's standard weapons complement might cost a point (like the base security upgrades), another point for shields (ditto) another point for a medbay, more again for the crew complement, etc. That way a capital ship would be an ongoing project for the PCs - either that or they save up at least two whole ranks' worth for a fully-featured warship right off the bat, which might be cost enough.

I like the trade in option offered, hand back your Sil 4 for a Sil 6. I'm hopeful the upgrade options discussed are presented in the Comander book.

Edit: trade in your Squadron of Y-Wings for B-Wings?

Edit: trade in your Squadron of Y-Wings for B-Wings?

Really? I personally think that the Y-wing (BTL-S3) is far superior to the B-wing. The extra gunner and astromech droid provide it with so much more capability than any pilot-only craft.

Edit: trade in your Squadron of Y-Wings for B-Wings?

Really? I personally think that the Y-wing (BTL-S3) is far superior to the B-wing. The extra gunner and astromech droid provide it with so much more capability than any pilot-only craft.

Very true, I wasn't really thinking, E-Wings would be better!