Kinzen, I can see that. But look at SW, each book has all the rules you need even for using the force. But Jedi are in their own book. Especially if you look at the setting it makes sense to separate the game out.

You could have one focusing on Magistrates, hunting down maho-cultists, solving murders, laying dead ghosts to rest.

Another is focusing on being part of a clan delegation, duels, game of letters, matchmaking, sadane, art, etc.

And a thrid about being in the military, rising up in military ranks, tactics, war, mass battles.

But yes the core of all the books should have the same system and rules, but with these focuses, it also allows for each book to focus the clans and schools toward a theme.

You mean the way it appears FFG did for their Star Wars game, with different "campaign areas" each presented as a seperate package/product, including the basic rules from the ground up -- over and over -- in each set?

Sorry, to me, that's a complete waste of page space. There's never a need to keep reprinting the basic rules, and it strikes me as a way to fluff page count on a small expense, and justify a higher cost to the customer.

There are only so many ways to swing a sword.

True... but they are a lot: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_kory%C5%AB_schools_of_martial_arts

There are only so many ways to swing a sword.

True... but they are a lot: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_kory%C5%AB_schools_of_martial_arts

I'd suggest that perhaps they share many of the same techniques and movements...

Shiba Giunichi, The Pheonix have Shiba artisans, yojimbo, and loremasters. The Isawa family would be in the book, just not the shugenja school except for notes on how to NPC them.

Which is, as I said, a way to leave the Phoenix sitting hollow. Like it or not, they are the "shugenja" clan. Saying that their most well-recognized identity is NPC-only out of the core book is... a terrible idea. If you have enough rules to let NPC Shugenja exist and do their thing, it's not that much work to make a PC version and stick it in the core book.

It's a bad idea, assuming the Phoenix are part of FFG's new launch.

Now.

As to the wider issue of schools...

Everybody seems to agree that the basic "trinity" is Bushi/Courtier/Shugenja,with people crying out on behalf of Monks, Artisans, Ninjas, Scouts, and what have you.

Honestly, the only one of those I regard as in some way essential to playing as a Clan Samurai is the Monk, and that's purely because the Ise Zumi are central to the Dragon-I love the Asako Henshin and all, and they are absolutely foundational to one of the Phoenix Clan's internal schisms, but they aren't realy core to the "hype" of the Phoenix the way the Togashi are for the Dragon.

And what do you know, the Togashi are pretty weird compared to typical Rokugani monks- almost like they rely upon a unique subset of abilities which need not directly interact with any overall view of how Monks (with a capital M!) do their thing. If we're hellbent on spreading stuff over books, "normal" Monks, Ninja, and wingnut stuff like the Tamori Yamabushi, the Kuni Witch-Chunters, Asako Henshin can hang out in an Advanced Player's Guide with the Minor Clans (I love the Minor Clans dearly, but let's not pretend they're absolutely essential except as a sidebar on where the Mantis came from)

Honestly there are always going to be school that fits somewhat outside the trinity. And they're part of the setting. I think I would try to include some of these outsiders in the core book - Ninja for the Scorpion, Ise Zumi for the Togashi are the two biggest reasons why. Can't have these clans without their respective schools.

I find it surprising. Reading on the internet and the own board space... splitting the content makes the most sense... because I actually think aside from completionists... people that want Kurosawa will buy one book, people that want Spirited Away will buy the other book. Everyone wins, and we no longer have to have out of game conflict between players and GM's because they all want different conflicting things from the setting.

Because what you're proposing is good for people who want Kurosawa, good for people who want Spirited Away, and rather terrible for people who want Legend of the Five Rings.

But nobody actually wants Legend of the Five Rings, thats my point.

But nobody actually wants Legend of the Five Rings, thats my point.

They don't?

Nope, many people get into L5R because they're looking for a game about samurai drama, and there isn't anything else out there thats good. And they also love the Rokugan that ignores the crazy CCG plot.

Other people, appreciate the spiritual potential of the setting, and less often basically play Dark Heresy/CoC in Rokugan. More often they join groups of the former and annoy the GM when they attempt to importune spells.

I've never actually met a CCG player that played the RPG.

I've never actually met a CCG player that played the RPG.

... Wow.

I'd suggest you are mistaking anecdotes for data, at this point, and mistaking your own ignorance for proof something doesn't exist.

I've met a very, very large number of people who played the CCG and got into the RPG. It's in my opinion delusional to pretend they don't exist.

I've never actually met a CCG player that played the RPG.

My experience has been vastly different from yours.

I've never actually met a CCG player that played the RPG.

My experience has been vastly different from yours.

This.

The first L5R LARP had about half of the players were as at least passing players of the CCG.

Not that i'm saying there is a lot of overlap. We game near DC, which if IIRC has one of the biggest spots on the east coast for L5R (Dream Wizards I think the place is called?). Zero interest there for the RPG at all, which I thought was surprising, but you know, each their own.

I play and enjoy both the CCG, and the RPG. The CCG encompasses all things Rokugan, and is highly entertaining to play. The RPG is even more entertaining when it contains all the elements of Legend of the Five Rings. It makes you think twice before just pulling your sword or bow out. Heck there can even be consequences for being a good samaritan in Rokugan. That sort of intrigue combined by battle, court, and the supernatural is what makes Rokugan what it is, otherwise I could play Runequest: Oriental, Forgotten Realms: Kara Tor, Rolemaster: Imperial Japan, or half a dozen other games,

Shinjo Yosama

I've never actually met a CCG player that played the RPG.

That's for you, on my side, there's a lot of CCG player that played the RPG and the other way around (RPG player played the CCG). It's different entertainment, Shinjo Yosama basically describe the most of it.

I'll get back on the topic, because this isn't useful to the discussion.

I'd suggest that perhaps they share many of the same techniques and movements...

Once again, I'm totally against that. I'm totally for a Generic School but against a "Common Trunk" because that's now how Dojo works. You may want and like that but it doesn't fit the setting at all. I've pointed out the martial arts because they have different starting training because you have to master the basic techniques to be able to learn the advanced techniques. This is how the School works.

And no they don't share the same techniques and movements.The Mirumoto Taoist Bushi doesn't fight like the Akodo Bushi, their movements are way different. The Shiba Bushi or the Daidoji doesn't fight at all like the Matsu Berserker. The Utaku Battle Maiden doesn't fight at all like the Bayushi Bushi and so more. These are some example that are pure contrast. and doesn't fit at all what you're saying.

Yes there could have a Kendo School but that wouldn't fit many Schools in it. You'll have to convince me more than simply say that to change my mind, because by the Setting, your suggestion is just wrong and will remove all the flavor of L5R. It feels way too much as D&D where everyone is generic until you pick a Prestige Class... That lack of flavor when you are that "Generic Class" removes all the feeling and strong link to your Clan. If I want to play D&D, I would play D&D but I want to play L5R and every editions had the School advancement to fit in the Setting.

It's one of those cases where a conceit in the setting (10001 secret techniques) is both mechanically suspect in that it causes a proliferation of techniques that all "need" to be mechanically unique, and otherwise promotes iffy design... and it causes some eye-rolling moments when there are 30 different schools that all claim that their Chūdan-no-kamae is superior to everyone else's Chūdan-no-kamae ... and that in 1200 years, no one else has figured out their extra special secret draw cut style.

Or that in 1200 years, only one school of one clan has figured out alchemy, or the extra special art of telling lies, or...

That said, one can still make the choice you make in how to order the design priorities, and not be wrong -- and you make a thought-out and articulate argument, which is more than we sometimes see.

It's one of those cases where a conceit in the setting (10001 secret techniques) is both mechanically suspect in that it causes a proliferation of techniques that all "need" to be mechanically unique, and otherwise promotes iffy design... and it causes some eye-rolling moments when there are 30 different schools that all claim that their Chūdan-no-kamae is superior to everyone else's Chūdan-no-kamae ... and that in 1200 years, no one else has figured out their extra special secret draw cut style.

Or that in 1200 years, only one school of one clan has figured out alchemy, or the extra special art of telling lies, or...

This is an ideology, yet it doesn't apply because Clans don't want to lose their identity. I'll compare this to languages, while it's not the same, it will makes you understand my point against yours in what you've said. In 2009, enthologues listed 6912 active languages. From the time we live on Earth, we still haven't figured out a languages that everyone knows. Why? For the same reason, people don't want to lose their identity. While there's popular languages, it doesn't mean that everyone knows it. How's the best way to learn a language? By learning it from a Country where it's a primary language.

Why is that a good comparaison? Because Clans want to keep their identity, therefore, they want to keep they art of fighting, because they have great stories and heroes in their Clan they want to honor. Let's not forget that honor is a huge part of the setting. However, through alliances and threaties, a member from another Clan may go to another Clan's School, that's part of the game and this is why there's some character with different schools. Does it mean, to take your example, that only Dragon has alchemist? Nope, but they are the master of alchemy.

As I've said, yes it's a design that requires time, it will create balancement issues, and other flaws, but I don't think there's a perfect way to do it. I prefer to have some balancement issues to have a system where you have a bland class system with a few Clan specialisation. I kinda feel like the "Tree system" and all the "How to handle a sword" is the skill system with the Emphasis. I don't feel like it need more than these skills, while the School techniques are this specialisation.

Well, for once I don't see why there would be a reason to change the school-system. But to make like 1 Bushi, 1 Coutier and 1 Shugenja Class for all the Clans doesn't sound like a good idea.

I trained Aikido for one year, I love Martial Arts-Movies and know a bit about the various Martial Arts from other sources too. Yes, there are similar techniques in some of them, because there are only so many ways on how to kick, strike with a sword and all the other things. Still, the Takeda-Aikido looks different from the Aikido I learned. The same goes for the various Karate-Styles and most other Martial Arts. The way you move, the way you position your hand,arms and legs, all of those things vary.

And regarding the example of languages: Crawd, you forgott you big point.
Eventhough English is spoken in Canada, the USA, Great Britian, Ireland and Australia, they speak a different kind of English. The same goes for most other languages. I live in Austria, therefore I'm a Germanspeaker and we have a saying here "The biggest difference between Austria and Germany is the common language". This saying goes as well for America, Australia and Great Britian (of course all the other countries too).
So even if you put 5 Kung Fu-guys, or Karateka or some other martial artists who are trained in the same art, but not the same Dojo, their style will look different.

So, yes all Bushi schools teach Kenjutsu and the biggest difference to notice is the Ni-ten-Style from the Mirumoto, still the style from the Akodo Bushi will look different from the style of the Kakita or the Hida Bushi. Also we have to consider that not all Family-Dojo teach all Bugei-Skills per default, as far as I know the only Bugei-Skill all Bushi-Schools have in common is Kenjutsu.

And we shouldn't forget that, as it is now, we have 40XP to spend at character-creation. With those 40XP we could teach our Hida-Bushi Artisan: Bonsai or Perform: Storytelling or what ever comes to mind and that way make him a good Storyteller for his children, nephews, nieces and grandchildren and after a few hard months on the wall he comes home to tend his Bonsai, a way for him to find a balance between all this fighting and the need to find some peace of mind. As well we could teach our Doji Courtier Kyujutsu and Horsemanship, so after the endless talking in Court he can ride out and may train his archery to relax a bit.

I could live with it, if we were to change the Artisan into a subpath (but I wouldn't be happy about it), but it should be a path which is availiable at least for Bushi, Courtier and Shugenja. Ninja should stick a seperate full school. And "promoting" Scout from a Bushi-Variant to a seperate School may be a good idea, but I don't feel it necessary.

And the idea to need different Corebooks for different play-styles won't work for our Scorpion-Group. We started our campaign with "stop the Lion from attacking our border", got sent to Ryoko Owari to investigate some new Opium and now have discovered that there is a group called Kolat and a group called Spider (yes, some of our Samurai are getting paranoid) and during this adventures our Soshi Sugenja got a Kitsune-tsuki as a friend, my Shosuro Actress is now able to cough fox-fire and our Shosuro Infiltrator found a cat which is possesed with an Ancestral spirit.

So...how many corebooks would I need to play something crazy and awesome like that with your idea? Because it isn't Kurosawa-Samurai-Drama, but it isn't Spirited Away either.

The "common trunk" for bushi schools is the skills: Kenjutsu, Heavy Weapons, etc. The skill ranks and their associated mastery abilities represent the stuff that everybody has figured out; the techniques represent the more specialized stuff. And if you look past the mechanization to the effects, you can interpret those as parallel development of some related ideas; lots of them translate to "you attack better" or "you do more damage" or "you're harder to hit." They've just got slightly different flavors of how they get to that result, and then there are a small number that are truly unique.

Shoshuro, AFAIK... You needed Core, Great Clans, and Enemies of the Empire for all that stuff you just said in 4th.

I would say under my suggestion, which has evolved after people responding... is you would need probably one.

In my head at least two of them would only be needed for very specific campaigns and are intended to encourage playing those spheres and thats the Military (Mass Battle) one and the Winter Court (Social Combat) one.

You would prob. need just the Magistrates book and the Action-Adventure book. And just because there is a core for court and one for mass combat... doesn't mean Magistrates doesn't allow for it, its just not detailed, as the focus of the book is information gathering and adventure.

I myself am not sure how the divide would be and what schools would go where, I'd have to look through the rules figure out how I would want to fit things... but right now my mind has it as:

1. Emerald Empire -> focus on playing Magistrates, info on status within the Emerald and Jade Magistrates, Rokugani Law, Maho, Kolat, and Bandits.

-> would still have mechanics to do basic dueling, and social interaction... but not a focus. Note: This would have shugenja, bushi, and courtiers in it, thought the courtier schools in this book would be tooled to be useful in magistrate games.

2. Winter Court -> focus on Social Combat, Art, Dueling, This would have the 80+ pages on the courts vs. the 10 pages in the other books. Schools in here would have mechanics around social combat or dueling.

3. Imperial Legions -> focus on Military life, Mass Combat including spells for mass combat. All schools in here would have mechanics around mass combat.

4. Shadowlands -> Crab, focus on the shadowlands creatures, this would be the book to play for Horror. Possibly a sanity mechanic in this one.

I think the first one would be fine in this setup, and even then the GM could run Winter Court without the winter court book. Its more like: Each book gets its focus similar to how supplements such as Emerald Empire and Sword and Fan expanded the 4-5 pages in core on a subject. The core would have that pre-expanded, but have 2-3 page blurbs on the other subjects.

Kinzen, what actually makes sense is a common technique list, and each school specifying which techniques they have, and at what level.

Bloodycelt, I have to say that your pitch hasn't gotten any more convincing to me with subsequent iterations. There are four separate corebooks... but to run what most of us seem to think of as a "standard" l5r game you'd only really need two, because the other two are actually more like splat books for very specific campaign types... so then you've got just two "core" corebooks each reduplicating a significant chunk of the mechanical and setting information of the other... and I'm back to being at a loss as to why they don't make more sense as a single book. (I'm even less certain what to make of the totally different breakdown in the second half of your post, in which shugenja seem to have disappeared entirely from everything except mass battle).

I'll also add that I'm pretty confident I could run the campaign Shosuro describes out of the 4E corebook alone if I needed to. Other books (mostly EotE) might be time-savers and sources of extra inspiration but are hardly integral. That's more than I can say of any of the choppings-up you've suggested across multiple threads.

locust, which two do you think repeat all that much? And yes I have been changing this around in my head... but think of it this way:

Magistrates would be The first 3 chapters of the core book. But less spells, some schools reworked, and some of the specialized schools (for court, war, etc) not present.

Add in the magistrate schools from other books.

Then replace the last two chapters with more content from Emrerald Empire, the Element books, and Great Clans for Information gathering, and Magistrate like stuff. It would prob. have shallow depth on maho, ghosts, etc just like the core. And the ST chapter would focus on running magistrate games.

So yes if you wanted to play a trad. Doji courtier that would be difficult, or a Spider tainted samurai but there would be a magistrate school for a doji to use.

The next book Winter Court, would be like the courtier section in IA, Sword and Fan, Emerald Empire, so 80 pages or so just on Court Etiquette vs. the broad strokes of the previous book. It would repeat the Character creation info, but it would have different schools, mostly Yojimbo, Courtier, and Artisan focused. There may be some shugenja in this, but its main focus is courts.

Shugenja would be in both Imperial Legions with mass battle spells, and Shadowlands though that would focus on the Spells and Shugenja schools specialized for fighting evil.

Some schools might be repeated but with different techniques, those that had all the books could treat them as alternate paths.

^Wait, why would you need different books for all of these stuff? You can put all of them into one book, at least the rules and the mechanics, then have another book for the fluff. This would also help people who aren't fans of the canon setting - they can just buy the rulebook and be done with it.