If you have Ring equal to Mastery Level of spell you are casting and you are willing to spend a Void Point, you literally are going to have at least 85% chances of success at spellcasting, and probably higher because you are going to get free rolled dice from Shugenja Rank. It's like saying that Bushi has game-impacting chance of missing an attack against a naked, unmoving person with no Defence skill and Reflexes equal to spell level. Like, literally:

LVL1 spell - 5+5 TN (10)

Reflexes 1 person - 5+5 ATN

LVL2 spell - 5+10 (15)

Reflexes 2 person - 5+10 (15)

LVL 3 spell - 5+15 (20)

Reflexes 3 - 5+15 (20)

LVL 4 spell - 5+20 (25)

Reflexes 4 - 5 +20 (25)

LVL 5 spell - 5+25 (30)

Reflexes 5 - 5 + 25 (30)

Hitting your Crab Bushi with Reflexes 3 and Heavy Armor (which is, pretty much, a starting character) is as hard as casting a LVL 5 spell.

This also means that your starting Shugenja 1 with Ring at 3 would have pretty good shot at casting a Rank 4 spell.

Failing spells is *hard*.

Nice numbers but this is wrongly done. But a Shugenja 1 cannot cast a Rank 4 spell. Also, casting a Rank 4 spell without raise would mean that he'll need 4 Complex Action to cast it. That means 4 turns as a sitting duck waiting to be killed. Oh yeah, it's easier, at the round 4, meanwhile, the other Bushi had 4 attacks. Where's the problem here?

Let's say now that he has 3 Void points. He takes 3 raises to cast it in 1 round, the TN is now 40, is failing still not possible? Nope, plus failing his cast would also mean losing his spellslot. Meanwhile a Bushi that didn't successfully hit didn't lose his weapon (unless the storyteller is saying so depending on the attack roll, but that's not an official rule).

Now, you can always spend a Void point, yes, but that's also mean that if the Shugenja get hits, he won't have a Void point for the -10 damage reduction. That's a tough decision when you want to cast a spell.

Now, I take a look at the absurd situation you've mentionned: "your starting Shugenja 1 with Ring at 3 would have pretty good shot at casting a Rank 4 spell.", even if it's not possible, since the fastest way to cast a Rank 4 spell is with an Isawa Tensai. He wants to cast it in 1 turn, which is TN40, I'll even give him a Free Raise, that's means a TN of 35. Without a void, he has a chance of 11% of success. With a Void, it goes up to 32%.

In addition, let's not forget the disrupting rule in the Casting rule, each time he's interrupted, he'll have to do a Willpower Roll with a TN 10 or, when he's damaged, a Will power Roll of 5 + damage he's taken that hit. This interruption doesn't make him lose his spellslot, but that's still annoying, specially if you have to cast more than 1 turn.

So, when we include everything, as it should be, is it really that easy?

Edit note: Changing Full Action for Complex Action.

So lets see if we want to go for a Combat Shugenja we go for an Iswa Fire Shugenja. The reason for thi is that he can get the Tensai and/or the INferno guard school which both are top in terms of combat.

So if we take fire as prefered element we can get Fire spells of rank 2. We take a Fire Ring of 3 and get a 5k3 to cast the spell. Than we take fires from within a Rank 2 spells whiuch deals FirekFire as

dmg and takes 1 turn to cast thanks to our free raise on fire spells with a TN of 15 which should never ne a problem for the 5k3.

Thats the very start of the Game.

Lets say we advance further and get ourself a Rank 2 Shugenja. Than we have the opportunity to take the Iswa Tensai or the Inferno Guard.

The Tensai would allow us to cast rank 4 fire spells but decrease all other by 1. While the Inferno Guard gives us a fear effect for spells that are not targeting 1 human or creature.

So we have put our Fire ring up to 4 cause we want the specialisation on Fire.

Now lets look the Tensai can cast rank 4 spells with a roll of 8k4 (4 from the ring 2 from the IR Rank and 2 times being favored of the elements), with void he gets 9k5 and with the mastery of spellcraft he gets a 10k5 with void.

This is enough to beet the TN (25) of each lvl 4 spell at a reliable lvl. Than the Fire Shugenja is a good one and takes the time to actually cast Hurried steps( Inanted to remove the scroll) which reduec each spell he casts by 4 turns.

so the next lvl 4 spell he casts is an instant spell. This means he can get a lvl 4 of every second turn until no spell slot is left. This means the shug can instant cast multiple walls of fire onto the battlefield each of them dealing

6k6 dmg to each enemy hit by them.

This seems like a far better dmg than a Bushi can do.

Also there is the second way of going the Iswa FINferno Guard. This path gives you a casting roll of only 7k4 (4 from the Ring, 2 From the Ir rank and 1 from the favored), this means with mastery of spellcraft and the void he can only get 9k5 at max for his rolls.

So now why this is a way worth looking? The reason is the fear effect of the Inferno guard incombination with the Spells Silent Water and Be the mountain.

So the Shungeja has Water 3 to get acess to the Silent Water in which he casts the be the Muntain spell to get a dmg reduction of 10.when it is triggered.

Than he goes into combat and again casts the innated hurriied steps to reduce his next spell to an instant one and if it is lvl 3 or lower to a simple action.

This he combines with the spell Fist of Osano wo which is doing Fire K Fire as dmg and is a aoe spell, whcih means with giving up another spellslot or a void point it can get a Fear effect of x, where x is the mastery lvl.

Since fear, as written, works on sight this means everyone n the battlefield who sees the thing has to make a fear 3 check and gets -3k0 dice if failed until the Shugenja either gets out of combat or dies.

So to sum it up now you have a Shugenja who can do a Aoe spell with 4k4 dmg every second turn, whcih debuffs the opponents with a -3k0 on all rolls, when a willpower check is failed and has a Dmg reduction of 10 in addtion

to the benefits of the defense position.

All in all this version also is better than a Bushi who does not have the the control or the gurateed dmg of both Shuegnja variants. He not even has a comparable defense option since he can´t stay in the defense position all time

as the Shugenja can.

So in the end the Shugenja easily can get their dicepool at a early high and actuall can find ways to avoid the high TNs of 40 while still casting a spell each turn and dealing dmg either each second or each turn, depnding on the way they go.

In addtion to that they have superior control of the battlefield and the superiro defense.So the only way to kill him is kill him before he has cast his first spell cause afterwards it gets difficult to do so.

Also the Interupption rule actually is useless cause most Battle Shugenjas, as displayed, only need 1 turn per spell and therefore is no time to interupt them.

Are we really bringing theorycraft here? It's pointless to the discussion. I'm pretty sure someone could build a Tsuruchi Archer with the same amout of XP of your Shugenja and snipe down each of them with Flesh Cutter arrows. But this would still bring nothing to the discussion... The post I was saying toward WHW was major flaws in his argument, not theorycraft.

In fact, the discussion is already going nowhere, since I've pointed out that your Spirit Point thing a flawed idea... I guess I'll post again when the discussion will go somewhere.

I think it might be a mistake to end up down the rabbit hole of a total teardown and rebuild of the Shugenja casting system... at least for me, the point was to nudge it into a more "mutually supportive" state with what the setting / lore has to say about shugenja.

WOW...I feel like some people don't get the rules and play the game wrong.

There will always be a player who want's to minmax his/her character to some idea. So there will always be the Fireball-throwing-Isawa (well, the Asahina exist because of one of them), still if I'd want to play a Fireball-Throwing-Phoenix I'd prefer the Agasha-Shugenja.

And the game tries to show you how the typical Phoenix, Lion, Crab or whatever Samurai looks like through point-costs for the Advantages and Disadvantages.

And if I remember correctly, from the lore point of view, the things the Shugenja do which make them priests are: blessing crops, marriage and funeral ceremonies, spritually cleaning persons, buildings and objects, reading omens, interpreting the Tao of Shinsei and making sure that a Samurai is spiritually clean at "all the times". If every Shogenja could talk with every Ancestor, what would make the Kitsu special? If every Shugenja could talk with the Animal Spirits what would make the Kitsune Special? And as far as I know, the Fortunes, both the lesser and the greater, were always the ones to choose if they wanted to talk to someone and not the Shugenja. So, Kinzen, this whole a Shugenja can talk to every singel spiritual being is against the lore.

Again, Teveshszat:

So...your suggestions includes VOID in calculating the Spiritpoints, but without the advantage Ishiken-Do no one is able to cast VOID-Spells...so in your example the Shugenja would either have 3 unusable Spiritpoints, would get Void-Spells without adavtage or would still have the same effect as before and so he would be able to cast the same spell at a maximum of 6 times. Which would mean: NOTHING CHANGES, except that you have more Spiritpoints than you can use, except you'd have spells at a cost for ine spiritpoint.

In what way exactly are the Spitipoint different from Mana/ Zeon/ Magicpoints?

Again, Teveshszat:

So...your suggestions includes VOID in calculating the Spiritpoints, but without the advantage Ishiken-Do no one is able to cast VOID-Spells...so in your example the Shugenja would either have 3 unusable Spiritpoints, would get Void-Spells without adavtage or would still have the same effect as before and so he would be able to cast the same spell at a maximum of 6 times. Which would mean: NOTHING CHANGES, except that you have more Spiritpoints than you can use, except you'd have spells at a cost for ine spiritpoint.

In what way exactly are the Spitipoint different from Mana/ Zeon/ Magicpoints?

Where is the problem. Yes the Spiritpoints include the void ring when you calculate how much you have. But since we are tralking about spirit points and not spell sloit this ha no effect on the usage of them. The Shugenja still can use the 3 points to cast everyspell he want but no Shugenja can cast void spells without the

Ishiken Do advantage.

So no unsuable spiritpoinst since what says if you can or can´t learn Void spells is the advantage. That means the spiritpoinst he gets though the void Rings just add to the others and can be used as normal.

AS soon as he gets the Ishiken Do advanatge he gets acess to the void spell list and can use spell from this list to cast them with his normal pool of spiritpoints.

So in total you have neither unusable points nor getting voidspells without advantage.

The change is the curve of power you can get. No lvl 2 Shugenja with lvl 4 spells anymore. No Shugenja who can easily cast spells outide of the expected powercurve. This all does not work when you go for a Point absed system

cause you can adjust the poinst in a manner that makes cating a lvl 4 spell at insight rank 2 impossible due to point costs and aviabaility. This would flattern the power spikes a shugenja can create and smooth out the powercurve

of the class in general. so there are things that change at least in the mechanical area.

The points are different from the otherin the way the design would make them different. Why they are here, where do they come from and all these things which get incooperated in the setting would be the difference from Manapoinst and co.

Yes it has a comparable mechanic but neither the cost nor the balance would have to be the same as for the other mechnical system. So not Manapoints are not automatically the same as Spiritppoints.

Again, Teveshszat:

So...your suggestions includes VOID in calculating the Spiritpoints, but without the advantage Ishiken-Do no one is able to cast VOID-Spells...so in your example the Shugenja would either have 3 unusable Spiritpoints, would get Void-Spells without adavtage or would still have the same effect as before and so he would be able to cast the same spell at a maximum of 6 times. Which would mean: NOTHING CHANGES, except that you have more Spiritpoints than you can use, except you'd have spells at a cost for ine spiritpoint.

In what way exactly are the Spitipoint different from Mana/ Zeon/ Magicpoints?

Where is the problem. Yes the Spiritpoints include the void ring when you calculate how much you have. But since we are tralking about spirit points and not spell sloit this ha no effect on the usage of them. The Shugenja still can use the 3 points to cast everyspell he want but no Shugenja can cast void spells without the

Ishiken Do advantage.

So no unsuable spiritpoinst since what says if you can or can´t learn Void spells is the advantage. That means the spiritpoinst he gets though the void Rings just add to the others and can be used as normal .

AS soon as he gets the Ishiken Do advanatge he gets acess to the void spell list and can use spell from this list to cast them with his normal pool of spiritpoints.

So in total you have neither unusable points nor getting voidspells without advantage.

Good grief.... do you even know what it is, or what it means?

The change is the curve of power you can get. No lvl 2 Shugenja with lvl 4 spells anymore. No Shugenja who can easily cast spells outide of the expected powercurve. This all does not work when you go for a Point absed system

cause you can adjust the poinst in a manner that makes cating a lvl 4 spell at insight rank 2 impossible due to point costs and aviabaility. This would flattern the power spikes a shugenja can create and smooth out the powercurve

of the class in general. so there are things that change at least in the mechanical area.

The points are different from the otherin the way the design would make them different. Why they are here, where do they come from and all these things which get incooperated in the setting would be the difference from Manapoinst and co.

Yes it has a comparable mechanic but neither the cost nor the balance would have to be the same as for the other mechnical system. So not Manapoints are not automatically the same as Spiritppoints.

This balanced powercurve you speak of exists only in your mind (same as this notion that higher-mastery spells are superior or more desirable than lower-mastery ones). You can't provide any tangible proof, solid reason or data that it would as you claim - you just repeat the same thing over and over again, despite what others tell you.

As for the Spirit Points.... You can call them that, Mana, Aether, Magic Points, Chi, or any other designation. You're just arguing semantics, as the end result (a point based system that is more prone to abuse than a slot system) is the same

Again, Teveshszat:

So...your suggestions includes VOID in calculating the Spiritpoints, but without the advantage Ishiken-Do no one is able to cast VOID-Spells...so in your example the Shugenja would either have 3 unusable Spiritpoints, would get Void-Spells without adavtage or would still have the same effect as before and so he would be able to cast the same spell at a maximum of 6 times. Which would mean: NOTHING CHANGES, except that you have more Spiritpoints than you can use, except you'd have spells at a cost for ine spiritpoint.

In what way exactly are the Spitipoint different from Mana/ Zeon/ Magicpoints?

Where is the problem. Yes the Spiritpoints include the void ring when you calculate how much you have. But since we are tralking about spirit points and not spell sloit this ha no effect on the usage of them. The Shugenja still can use the 3 points to cast everyspell he want but no Shugenja can cast void spells without the

Ishiken Do advantage.

So no unsuable spiritpoinst since what says if you can or can´t learn Void spells is the advantage. That means the spiritpoinst he gets though the void Rings just add to the others and can be used as normal .

Finally came out and said it - your interest is not in improving or balancing mechanics, but rather giving the shugenja a power-boost.

AS soon as he gets the Ishiken Do advanatge he gets acess to the void spell list and can use spell from this list to cast them with his normal pool of spiritpoints.

So in total you have neither unusable points nor getting voidspells without advantage.

"As soon as he gets the Ishiken-Do advantage"??????

Good grief.... do you even know what it is, or what it means?

The change is the curve of power you can get. No lvl 2 Shugenja with lvl 4 spells anymore. No Shugenja who can easily cast spells outide of the expected powercurve. This all does not work when you go for a Point absed system

cause you can adjust the poinst in a manner that makes cating a lvl 4 spell at insight rank 2 impossible due to point costs and aviabaility. This would flattern the power spikes a shugenja can create and smooth out the powercurve

of the class in general. so there are things that change at least in the mechanical area.

The points are different from the otherin the way the design would make them different. Why they are here, where do they come from and all these things which get incooperated in the setting would be the difference from Manapoinst and co.

Yes it has a comparable mechanic but neither the cost nor the balance would have to be the same as for the other mechnical system. So not Manapoints are not automatically the same as Spiritppoints.

This balanced powercurve you speak of exists only in your mind (same as this notion that higher-mastery spells are superior or more desirable than lower-mastery ones). You can't provide any tangible proof, solid reason or data that it would as you claim - you just repeat the same thing over and over again, despite what others tell you.

As for the Spirit Points.... You can call them that, Mana, Aether, Magic Points, Chi, or any other designation. You're just arguing semantics, as the end result (a point based system that is more prone to abuse than a slot system) is the same

My goal is improvement. Taht you don´t like the change hjas nothing to do with the fact that the current system is very prone to abuse and actually I can´t get tthe shugenja apowerboost greater than the Tensai path actually does cause with it the Shugenja get a 7k7 aoe spell at rank 2 and a 10k10 single target dmg spell

with Ir rank 3. And at both lvls these dmg mumbers are insane cause thea actually can onehit many things stright away on this lvl.

For the Ishikiin Do advatage I clearly know what this is but there a many ways to go. First you could be born so you take it as character creation than you can be choosen by the Void Dragon so you gain it, you can be touched by the void and gain it, you can a latent power whcih gets triggered at some point.

So yes there are ways to get it and with as soon I mean as soon as you either choose it at char creattion or something happens to you and grant this advantage.

I actually go and plot this curve for you maybe you than see the problem of the current system where shugenja starts at the middle, jumps to the higher regions of the power curve and hits the top as soon as he reaches IR3. This is what I try to eliminate by asystems which makes puts the high powerlvl more at the

later IR lvls which things like high costs or prequisites.

Also I fielded different arguments but I can´t really do anything against the fear of change. Sometimes I get the feeling that you don´t want improvement but just put the Shugenja down or cripple his power.

My first inclination when someone asking for change starts accusing skeptics of their plan of being "afraid of change" is to take an even harder, more critical look at the change being proposed. "You're just afraid of change" is a tired and well-worn cliche at this point, and honestly, it sinks to ad hominem .

^ What Killjoy said.

As for you plotting the curve... I'm gonna call your bluff and ask you to. I'll even make it easier and ask you to only consider the shugenja Schools (instead of all the possible permutations between Schools, Paths and Advanced Schools) and just the Spells in the corebook. But given that you were fond of the Ishiken-Do advantage, let's make that a prerequisite as well, just so we can count with the Void Spells too.

That should amount to 25 Schools, with each of them having access to roughly 180 spells... that's 4500 data points that you need to evaluate for both curves (because you need to present me a curve on the current state of things as well as your proposal, so we can compare). So a total of 9000 data points that you need to judge, evaluate, and calculate, on both the current slot-based system, and your Spirit Points one.

Please don't forget to include how you assessed each spell's importance and potential, as not all of them have a Damage Rating - and in such an analysis, the methods are as important as the final result - as well as the statistical method you used to calculate both curves. I'll be waiting.

My underlying point is that fluff tells me that shugenja in combat are overall pretty rare(...)

So I think this is where the real disconnect exists.

Where does the fluff tell you that?

Kuni in combat are not rare at all. Tamori/Pre-Phoenix Agasha in combat are not rare at all. Kitsu are not offensive-minded, but they provide a lot of combat support for the Akodo/Matsu, so they see combat all the time as well.

The Isawa Shugenja are the ones where the fluff says they hardly see any combat (and only in the most extreme circumstances at that), and then the mechanics turn around and give them lots of combat options, and that is a huge discrepancy. But "all shugenja avoid combat" is just not a reality in Rokugan.

I think I know the comment in the books that Kinzen is talking about, I'm just not finding it right now. I'll post it if I do.

The Isawa Shugenja are the ones where the fluff says they hardly see any combat (and only in the most extreme circumstances at that), and then the mechanics turn around and give them lots of combat options, and that is a huge discrepancy. But "all shugenja avoid combat" is just not a reality in Rokugan.

Actually, the fluff says the Phoenix Clan value life and despise war, but it also says they field entire army formations composed solely of shugenja.There's no genuine head-scratching discrepancy, just an example of Phoenix internal contradictions which, I must point out, the Clan is almost defined by.

The contradiction of the Phoenix is the "in-setting clan philosophy" vs the "in-setting clan action." I chose to call it a discrepancy because the "out-of-setting information" contradicts "in-setting information" as well.

The contradiction of the Phoenix is the "in-setting clan philosophy" vs the "in-setting clan action." I chose to call it a discrepancy because the "out-of-setting information" contradicts "in-setting information" as well.

Or, "in-setting clan philosophy" and "out-of-setting information" vs. "is the 'magic-users' card faction in a CCG whose mechanics largely represent battlefield combat." (-_Q)

If you think about in-setting descriptions of Phoenix warfare that take place before the Clan War/ Scorpion Clan Coup--stuff that was written up entirely as historical flavor rather than as the "present day" of the world of the CCG (a world which, as we RPGers so love to lament, has seemed like it ought to be on the verge of utter political and social dissolution for three or four generations at this point)--it's a lot more "phoenix armies defend X," "phoenix armies interpose themselves between two warring sides and let themselves be cut down until the opposing generals come to their senses" (I swear there's even more than one of those...) and very little "phoenix shugenja units burninate the enemy." Notable exceptions include the destruction of the Snake Clan and the second rise of Iuchiban, but that proves the rule more than it disproves it, I think--we're shown the Elemental Masters opening up their cans of magical whoopass for those precisely because they're supposed to be uniquely devastating existential threats to the Empire, and from magical sources no less.

Then the 12th century happens, and... welp.

The wiki (yes, I know) actually lists that legion of combat fire shugenja as being formed by Isawa Tsuke, who IIRC was a big carded character of that era. And so on. In short, battle shugenja seem originally to have been meant to be presented as a break with tradition... trouble is, that fluff has remained on the books all along whilst in real-world time military shugenja have been ubiquitous enough, in both the card game and (for the reasons Kinzen's pointed out) in RPG mechanics, that they've come to look like the tradition instead. Without making a value judgement between the two possibilities (though I think I've made my personal preference clear!), FFG's version of the game(s) could be a chance to clear the decks of some of this confusing baggage and just bloody pick one, with retcons as necessary. But at present, if we're confused, I think we can still, as usual, blame the dang CCG.

In any case, that's a bit of a digression, but it seemed germane.

If you think about in-setting descriptions of Phoenix warfare that take place before the Clan War/ Scorpion Clan Coup--stuff that was written up entirely as historical flavor rather than as the "present day" of the world of the CCG (a world which, as we RPGers so love to lament, has seemed like it ought to be on the verge of utter political and social dissolution for three or four generations at this point)--it's a lot more "phoenix armies defend X," "phoenix armies interpose themselves between two warring sides and let themselves be cut down until the opposing generals come to their senses" (I swear there's even more than one of those...) and very little "phoenix shugenja units burninate the enemy." Notable exceptions include the destruction of the Snake Clan and the second rise of Iuchiban, but that proves the rule more than it disproves it, I think--we're shown the Elemental Masters opening up their cans of magical whoopass for those precisely because they're supposed to be uniquely devastating existential threats to the Empire, and from magical sources no less.

Point of order- the Phoenix armies defending places and standing there and getting cut down to prove a point often did flashy stuff like teleporting in en masse.

Or there's that Lion heroine killing Phoenix shugenja who were teleporting in to assassinate a Lion general.

Point is, the Phoenix have a long, long tradition of using magic in war.

I'll note that "using magic in war" is not, to me, the same thing as "combat magic." Teleporting in so you can be cut to pieces is different from using your magic to squish someone else like a bug.

Quotes supporting the idea that shugenja killing are supposed to be rare:

"The Tamori are more feared than other shugenja because of their willingness to commit violence when other priests would turn away."

"{The Dragon armies} tend to integrate magic into their tactics and strategies more readily than most clans; only the Phoenix and certain elements of the Unicorn can rival the Dragon in using magic for war."

The Asahina don't even get mentioned in the Crane Clan section of the War chapter in EE, nor do the Soshi. Nor, for that matter, do the Iuchi, despite the previous quote.

"Among the Moshi, for instance, there is no martial tradition at all"

"It is far more common for the Dragon to deploy shugenja in their armies, for both the Agasha and later the Tamori make a habit of studying combat and training alongside the clan's bushi"

"Although the Lion have a sizable shugenja family in the Kitsu, they have relatively few battle shugenja -- most Kitsu are priests who dedicate their lives to worshipping the ancestors, and only a minority of their number serve in the army."

"The Moshi and the Kitsune are peaceful families, and prefer to avoid involvement in war whenever possible"

"{The Asahina} are committed pacifists and frequently ascetics, shunning not only the worldly demands of politics and economics but also the ways of war"

"the Agasha were unconventional, individualistic, and creative in their approach to life. This caused them to study the ways of battle as well as magic"

"{Agasha Tamori} transformed her followers into a militant and aggressive family"

"{the Tamori} also intensified their long-standing committment to fighting alongside the Mirumoto on the front lines, using both blades and the alchemical potions and devices for which they are justly famous"

"the Lion Clan's limited use of magic on the battlefield means the Kitsu family often appears almost irrelevant to daily life in the clan"

"Soshi shugenja are not overt or aggressive in their activities; instead they remain in the background -- whether on the battlefield or in court -- while gathering information about their enemies and spreading disinformation about friends and allies."

"Like most priests of the kami, the Iuchi prefer to shun violence, but the realities of centuries of travel in hostile territories taught them it is sometimes unavoidable. They reject the pacifism of families like the Asahina or the Isawa, and while they may not relish combat they are some of the most battle-ready shugenja of the Empire. They have developed a variety of techniques and spells to support the Unicorn Clan's warriors with increased speed or mobility, or to impede enemies with walls of water or torrential rains."

I think that's enough to be going on with. Repeated references to how the Agasha and the Tamori are unusual for taking part in battle so directly; the Asahina, Kitsune, and Moshi are thorough-going pacifists, while the Kitsu, the Soshi, and the Iuchi mostly contribute via support rather than direct damage to the enemy. The Isawa are obviously capable of laying the smackdown quite effectively . . . but as locust shell pointed out, if you lay the twelfth century aside for a moment, lore tells us they are deeply reluctant to do so, and will generally only do that when there's no other choice. So according to the fluff, while combat shugenja do exist, they're considered deviations from the norm.

Now, if you want to tell me that the fluff doesn't match what we see in the actual story, I'll agree with you! But that's the entire point of this discussion. Read the books, hear all about how most shugenja are very spiritual and don't generally fight with their magic. Look at the mechanics, see lots of ways to fight with magic, many fewer ways to be spiritual. And that's what bugs me.

Sorry, forgot to include this in my reply.

If every Shogenja could talk with every Ancestor, what would make the Kitsu special? If every Shugenja could talk with the Animal Spirits what would make the Kitsune Special? And as far as I know, the Fortunes, both the lesser and the greater, were always the ones to choose if they wanted to talk to someone and not the Shugenja. So, Kinzen, this whole a Shugenja can talk to every singel spiritual being is against the lore.

If every bushi could use a bow, what would make the Tsuruchi special? If every courtier could blackmail somebody, what would make the Bayushi special?

Being better at it would make them special. Same as it works with all the other school types.

And I'm not denying that it's "against the lore" to say that shugenja have any particular ability to deal with anything other than elemental kami. My point is that the lore, as it currently exists, doesn't make sense to me . And you could design really interesting shugenja mechanics if they were built to deal with spiritual entities as a core capability, which would make them feel more like the priests they're supposed to be.

Sorry, forgot to include this in my reply.

If every Shogenja could talk with every Ancestor, what would make the Kitsu special? If every Shugenja could talk with the Animal Spirits what would make the Kitsune Special? And as far as I know, the Fortunes, both the lesser and the greater, were always the ones to choose if they wanted to talk to someone and not the Shugenja. So, Kinzen, this whole a Shugenja can talk to every singel spiritual being is against the lore.

If every bushi could use a bow, what would make the Tsuruchi special? If every courtier could blackmail somebody, what would make the Bayushi special?

Being better at it would make them special. Same as it works with all the other school types.

And I'm not denying that it's "against the lore" to say that shugenja have any particular ability to deal with anything other than elemental kami. My point is that the lore, as it currently exists, doesn't make sense to me . And you could design really interesting shugenja mechanics if they were built to deal with spiritual entities as a core capability, which would make them feel more like the priests they're supposed to be.

You've got a point.

So either the Schooltechniques of the Kitsu and Kitsune would give them a bonus on their talking with X and we get some additional informtaion on "how to use the commune-spell for other spiritual beings than elemental kami" or there would be a new group of spells with the new tag and those schools would get a bonus for this tag, like most schools give a bonus on tags.

Well, maybe it could be a good idea to reboot the story at the Scorpion Clan Coup/ Second Day of Thunder time. Since for me too some things just don't make sense from the story-point-of-view. I know it is a fantasy world, but with this many wars the society of Rokugan would be on the brink of extinction. So a reboot seems like a good idea. At least to me.

Teveshszat, thanks for answering. But I'm not afraid of changes, I just don't like your idea.

Not because it is not mine, because to me it seems like it wouldn't solve the problem but rather create another one.

And if my 5th Edition-D&D-Cleric ever gets to lvl 20 I would have 9 resources to keep track of, since in D&D you have spellslots for every spelllevel and it still seems like less work to me than the Zeon oder Magic Point tracking from Anima and Fantasy Age.

I'm looking forward to your statistic regarding the Spiritpoints vs Spellslots!

My idea of solving the issue with "too powerfull Shugenja" would rather be something like:

.) changing the TNs for some spells or rearranging the Mastery Levels

.) reducing the number of new spells after gaining a new schoolrank or limiting the spells (for example 2 from your new Rank and 1 of higher Rank) .) having to make a successful Spellcraft (spellresearch) /Element-roll with a slightly reduced TN for gaining the new chosen spells (like you sensei teaches you the prayer, but you have to write down the scroll yourself).

I also would stick with the spellscrolls, since it gives people the chance of rendering an enemy Shugenja useless by hiding/destroying the Shugenjas spellscrolls. As well as it gives the opportunity of a story hook (one of your spellscrolls is missing, find the thief and get it back).

Also I want to note that the Alternate Paths and Advanced Schools are Advanced/Optional Mechanics, so if you have the feeling that the Isawa Tensai is to strong for your campaing you are free to not allow it. Besides for me it feels ok that they can cast one Element at MR 4 at SR 2, but every other Element only at MR 1. It is a high prize.

"{The Dragon armies} tend to integrate magic into their tactics and strategies more readily than most clans; only the Phoenix and certain elements of the Unicorn can rival the Dragon in using magic for war."

Just as an aside, that line always brings to mind the scene in the Avatar series when Saka and Zuko are fighting together against Azula on the roof of the tramway gondola.

Point of order- the Phoenix armies defending places and standing there and getting cut down to prove a point often did flashy stuff like teleporting in en masse.

Or there's that Lion heroine killing Phoenix shugenja who were teleporting in to assassinate a Lion general.

Re: teleportation, basically what Kinzen said. Teleporting is a flexible ability that doesn't necessarily slot the caster into a role in combat--as indeed in the examples you give here, in which all the fighting/standing and dying is still being done by Shiba bushi.

The "lion heroine" you mention was Matsu Tsuko, an early CCG personality, in a battle dated 1100 ( if the wiki tells me true , since I don't have WotP). I happen to remember because, in fact, I skimmed it last night when I was formulating my point about the difference in presentation from the 12th century on, and mentally filed it under "supporting evidence." It's a battle which, like Tsuke and his shugenja legion, seems to have explicitly been written in to show that shugenja taking active part in war were a controversial and relatively recent development in the "world on the verge of change" atmosphere they were going for at that time (but have never carried through to its obvious conclusion, for reasons we've all discussed to death). A Lion general challenges a Phoenix to show that shugenja can be useful in a fight, and she responds by... teleporting in some mundane fighters. Doesn't even think of Strike of the Tsunami with eight raises. That's the feel and role of shugenja in L5R as it was being thought about and written before 15-20 years of story driven by game mechanics.

I'll also point out that I just skimmed through the corebook for water spells with the Travel keyword and found that, not too surprisingly, the preponderance of them deal with skirmish-combat movement and there's no means of teleporting people (further than across a a room in a skirmish, at least)--I thought I'd seen that army-traveling spell somewhere in 4E, but it must have been off in a splatbook. So this is actually another great example of the fluff telling us an interesting thing about what shugenja are known to do outside skirmishes, but the mechanics as usual investing much more detail in what to do after swords are drawn.

edit: fixed some weird autocorrect typos

I believe there's a Water spell that increases the distance an army can travel in a day -- but no teleportation that I recall seeing, ever.

Teleporting an entire army is one of those effects that takes us back to the questions of what "we" (all the diffrent players of the various games, and fans of the setting) want Rokugan to be... and how many different things it can be at the same time without breaking...

Epic fantasy with Japanese flavor?
Pan-Asian Wuxia?
Tense samurai drama with a supernatural edge?
Something else?

I don't think a setting, or an RPG, can be all things to all people.

I don't know if "we" can ever agree on what Rokugan "should" be -- and it's clear that it's tried to be a lot of things to a lot of people, and maybe never really decided on what it is.

EDIT: and I bring this up again because it feels like so many of the tense exchanges result from people starting from very different places and then talking past each other, because of these unspoken disagreements about what "we" really want -- like people are aiming at different targets and maybe assuming that everyone else is aiming at the same target they are.

Considering that the game began with an army of undead, demons, and human samurai marching on the Imperial Capital and getting attacked by fire-breathing kung-fu god-monks, I'd say that expecting it to be a Kurosawa simulator is part of where people start running into trouble.

It has always had a sort of pot-boiler quality, and while many of the best stories have involved simple interpersonal drama and quiet human dignity, the setting at large has always been a bit more... over the top and insane?

Yes, that's why I constantly hammer that games and players should be aware of what they are, in order to embrace it. This is also why I kinda like New-New World of Darkness stuff, because it finally recognized that instead of using 20 pages for random fictions, random fluff, or random crunch, it might be actually good to devote that page count to stuff like "theory craft on how the genre works", "what elements make the genre and how to adjust them", "science behind party dynamics" and other meta-rpg discussion that literally acknowledges that yes, this is a rpg game, and yes, it has narrative that can be analyzed and understood.

Also, random thought, but you know what I want from next L5R RPG? Changing Dangerou Beauty from "+1k0 to Temptation against opposing gender" to "+1k0 to Temptation against people attracted to you". That Advantage was probably first thing we houseruled even without fully reading the book.

Considering that the game began with an army of undead, demons, and human samurai marching on the Imperial Capital and getting attacked by fire-breathing kung-fu god-monks, I'd say that expecting it to be a Kurosawa simulator is part of where people start running into trouble.

It has always had a sort of pot-boiler quality, and while many of the best stories have involved simple interpersonal drama and quiet human dignity, the setting at large has always been a bit more... over the top and insane?

There is a real disconnect between expectations of people who started with CCG and with people who started with RPG. Kurosawa-Simulator of Tea Consumption is usually the RPG Player, while Swagsama the OniBuster is usually the CCG Player. There is a real aesthetics and style clash between RPG perspective and CCG perspective.