Bloodycelt, I have to say that your pitch hasn't gotten any more convincing to me with subsequent iterations. There are four separate corebooks... but to run what most of us seem to think of as a "standard" l5r game you'd only really need two, because the other two are actually more like splat books for very specific campaign types... so then you've got just two "core" corebooks each reduplicating a significant chunk of the mechanical and setting information of the other... and I'm back to being at a loss as to why they don't make more sense as a single book. (I'm even less certain what to make of the totally different breakdown in the second half of your post, in which shugenja seem to have disappeared entirely from everything except mass battle).

I'll also add that I'm pretty confident I could run the campaign Shosuro describes out of the 4E corebook alone if I needed to. Other books (mostly EotE) might be time-savers and sources of extra inspiration but are hardly integral. That's more than I can say of any of the choppings-up you've suggested across multiple threads.

Well, the Shosuro Actors are a School which is presented in the Great Clans, but if it were restricted to the Corebook I would have played a Bayushi Courtier or a Soshi Shugenja and talked with the other Shugenja or the other Courtier player about how they want to focus their character, so I can focus mine in an other way.

But yes, the Kolat and the Spider are mentioned in the Corebook and regarding the Kitsune-tsuki it could have been created by the rules in the GM-Toolbox from the Corebook. ^^ So this campaign could be played with the Corebook only.

Regarding the idea of making one book about mechanics "only" and one book about Rokugan, this sounds like a nice idea. They could be released at the same time as seperate books or as a bundle. I would rather buy this, than various Corebooks just to get alle the mechanics I may need for my games.

That would be better, than having to read through 4-5 books just to get all the courtier stuff, not mechanics... just the fluff. Its all disorganized. Though I think... we have at least 3-4 books worth of setting in Rokugan.

Especially if one wanted to actually explain how shugenja magic works, and detail it.

And at least 2 books worth of mechanics if not more.

That would be better, than having to read through 4-5 books just to get all the courtier stuff, not mechanics... just the fluff. Its all disorganized. Though I think... we have at least 3-4 books worth of setting in Rokugan.

Especially if one wanted to actually explain how shugenja magic works, and detail it.

And at least 2 books worth of mechanics if not more.

There's an entire book for force sensitive planets coming out so I can imagine multitudes of books on certain subjects in the setting, rather than fewer entries.

locust, which two do you think repeat all that much?

Any time you have more than one "core book," you have to repeat all the core mechanics: what goes on the character sheet, how to roll dice, anatomy of a skill check or a combat round, explanation of attributes and Rings (or whatever you're using in a redesigned system), skill list with explanations of what they're all for, advantages and disadvantages, how schools or whatever equivalent you're using works, Void Points and other special mechanics, Honor, character creation, character advancement, equipment and what it all does, etc. You have to put, in every "core" book, enough basic setting information to play a full game from: the Clans, the Empire and its government, some history, cosmology and religion, culture, nature. And you have to put, in every "core" book, a section of basic GM tools (unless you're suggesting that on top of multiple corebooks people will also spring for a separate and mandatory GM manual): how to create NPCs (with examples), some basic monsters and/or critters, how to plan an adventure in the setting, useful advice and common pitfalls. That right there is about half the volume of the current 4E core book, conservatively. Is that not "all that much?"

Edit: if it's not clear, I don't think this solution actually works terribly well for Star Wars either--as I said earlier when you first brought it up--it's just that it fits L5R even worse.

Some schools might be repeated but with different techniques, those that had all the books could treat them as alternate paths.

Ah, yes, by all means let us simplify the product line to avoid tripping players up with conflicting expectations.

...that was the point this idea started from, right?

You may be right, there might be too much repetition. Perhaps when I get a day to look further into it I can sort of get an idea by making a table of what should go where from which book, and see.

My goal would be at most 20-30 pages of repetition.

You see the Setting info would be IC, so the histories would all be different, with certain common plot points illustrated. And also very whitewashed to represent what characters without forbidden knowledge would know.

The Star Wars corebooks are fat little things, and I'd still be shocked if they keep the percentage of duplication anywhere near that low, though their TOC aren't online (perhaps in part because people might be turned off buying if they could so quickly evaluate the level of same-ness? ) so I can't say for certain. And that's in a setting with which nearly everyone approaching the game is already at least somewhat familiar, not remotely the case with L5R.

Anyway, with a SW game, you mainly want to get people who are already fans of SW to buy a particular kind of tie-in, RPG books. With a normal IP like L5R, you need to get people who are already into RPGs to buy this RPG book. They're different sorts of problems, and you can get away with different things in the first case than you can in the second.

You see the Setting info would be IC, so the histories would all be different, with certain common plot points illustrated. And also very whitewashed to represent what characters without forbidden knowledge would know.

This... doesn't make the idea sound any better. Unreliably narrated setting info might be an amusing conceit for those players who are sophisticated enough readers not to take it too literally (the 1E Way of... clan splatbooks did a bit of this, IIRC), but if made the main setting information in the "core" book(s) it'd mainly serve to annoy the bejesus out of everyone, especially GMs. Particularly when GMs picked up the other core book(s) they inevitably needed to run a multidimensional campaign and found actively conflicting setting info, with no guidance as to how to reconcile the two (or more) sources, not to mention having to deal with players irritated that the information on the OOC basis of which they built their characters is being changed about arbitrarily on them. And if that is "for characters without forbidden knowledge" then you're still going to need to explain what characters with "forbidden knowledge"--and GMs--know, and that'll have to be part of your core text as well, so my original point doesn't really change.

Anyway, very dead horse, I will stop beating it now.

Locust, one of my friends bought both Star Wars Corebooks and told me that about 80% are identical. Just a few item-variations and ship-building-variants and of course more information on the "main-topic".

Bloodycelt: Yes, there is various information on Courtier, Shugenja, Bushi and other Schools in the supplemental books. But you can play L5R in all it's variations with just the Corebook.

When I started to play L5R I didn't even read the complete Corebook and no one noticed. As a GM now I try to read through all the books and still didn't do it, because it wasn't necessary.

I read most of the Great Clans, because I wanted to get a better feeling for the Clans to design more fitting campaign, but it wasn't necessary.

I read most of the Emerald Empire and eventhough I love fluff, still it isn't a must read, not even for GMs.

In the Enemies of the Empire I only read the parts which I needed up until now and that's not even half of the book.

From the Imperial Histories I just read the Thousand Years of Darkness, because one of my groups wanted to play in this alternate Setting and skimmed through the rest. But I didn't read them completly.

In the Secrets of the Empire I just read the information on the Spirit Realms, which is about half the book, because I was looking for inspiration on a campaign/ adventure which wa about one of the Spirit Realms.

As for the Element-Books, I read only the Appendix and the information on the various GM-styles. Only for some schools I read the fluff too and was disappointed because the fluff contradicted the mechanics sometimes. (Sisters of Sacred Light are described as a group of females acceoting EVERY clan and in the mechanics there are just mentioned a few Shugenja Schools)

In Sword and Fan I only read the part about the Geisha and some parts on the Courtier out of curiosity.

The Strongholds were a source of inspiration on a few adventure ideas, still I didn't read the whole book.

And in the Imperial Archives I also just read less than half of the book.

I didn't even really read the Unexpected Allies 2.

So, I can tell you, yes if you want to use all of the optional rules and additional Schools, Paths, Kata, Kiho, Tattoos,Spells, Advantages and Disadvantages you should read the Appendix in all the books.

But you don't have to. Up until now you can play every type of campaign with just the corebook.

And everytime I play L5R with new players I do exactly that. I use the corebook and only the mechanics from the corebook.

Guess what: I excited about 5 people for roleplaying games and about 10 or more people for L5R.

I'm not sure if I could still do that with multiple corebooks.

Multiple corebooks strikes me as a way to sell the same content several times for little additional development cost, milking the market and giving the customers far less return on investment.

Besides disliking the system for multiple reasons, that's why I've not purchased a thing from FFG's Star Wars line -- and if they did it to L5R, they could count me out of buying any of that line as well.

As for the multiple corebooks, I've said it a few times. I'm totally against it. I basically skipped every games that needs more than corebook to play a campaign. If this happens to L5R, I'll stay with the current edition because I really like this edition. Is it perfect? Nope, but I like it. It needs a few tweeks that I can pull off myself.

As for the way supplements was done. I will say that I really liked the way they did it. Why? Because you didn't have to wait for the next supplement to have new stuffs on your "Pillar". Knowing that supplements were released each 3 to 4 months, if they did the "Bushi Supplement" - "Courtier Supplement" - "Shugenja Supplement", you would have to wait 9 to 12 months to have the last one, which means that the last one will have a huge step behind compared to the two others. The way they did it, you had a new supplement and everyone got something. Sure, it has the drawback of having the information spread everywhere, but you cannot have both, unless they release everything at the same time, which is impossible.

It was basically a "Pick your poison" in a way, because they had to decide if they wanted spread informations or delayed informations. Both has their pros and cons. Which is better? None, in my opinion.

Hmm, you're right... SW does have too much overlap.

I mixed that up with the 40K books. I haven't fully read Dark Heresy, but I know Deathwatch and Rogue Trader have very little overlap.

I mixed that up with the 40K books. I haven't fully read Dark Heresy, but I know Deathwatch and Rogue Trader have very little overlap.

The whole 40k RPG range has lots of overlap. They are pretty much just reskinned versions of each other, with minor modifications and one or two extra rule thrown in for flavor. Like, the only meaningful difference between Deathwatch and Rogue Trader is that RT has rules for voidships and space combat.

As for the multiple corebooks, I've said it a few times. I'm totally against it. I basically skipped every games that needs more than corebook to play a campaign. If this happens to L5R, I'll stay with the current edition because I really like this edition. Is it perfect? Nope, but I like it. It needs a few tweeks that I can pull off myself.

As for the way supplements was done. I will say that I really liked the way they did it. Why? Because you didn't have to wait for the next supplement to have new stuffs on your "Pillar". Knowing that supplements were released each 3 to 4 months, if they did the "Bushi Supplement" - "Courtier Supplement" - "Shugenja Supplement", you would have to wait 9 to 12 months to have the last one, which means that the last one will have a huge step behind compared to the two others. The way they did it, you had a new supplement and everyone got something. Sure, it has the drawback of having the information spread everywhere, but you cannot have both, unless they release everything at the same time, which is impossible.

It was basically a "Pick your poison" in a way, because they had to decide if they wanted spread informations or delayed informations. Both has their pros and cons. Which is better? None, in my opinion.

The presentation of the 4th edition books was so **** good compared to previous editions it made me put more effort into it. Comparing the 1st edition quality to 4th edition quality is like night and day! arlier editions also had individual clan books, and while there were schools in the core book, if you really wanted to learn a lot about the clan you needed them badly. This was also however at a time when the majority of people didn't have internet at home!

Well, if 5th edition is going to force me to read through each book to get a small snippet of something to get the whole picture like 4th, forget it.

The pain of waiting 9 months for a "pillar" supplement is understandable, but the pain of having to search through 12 books to find that small bit of info on something is forever.

You can mitigate the searching problem by having good indexing and so forth (e.g. the bit at the back of Secrets of the Empire listing which books all the schools were in). AEG made no secret of the fact that the way they organized 4e was a calculated commercial decision: if you have a book that is The Big Book of Shadowlands, then people who aren't running Shadowlands campaigns and have no interest in Tainted stuff won't buy it. Big Book of Spirit Realms? Will be ignored by the players who run a very low-fantasy version of L5R. Big Book of Winter Court? Useless to people who don't like courtly plots. Some people will buy it to be completionist, but the more a book caters to a single type of campaign, the more some people will shrug and decide it isn't really worth their money. Instead they made sure every book was at least potentially useful to a broad swath of players, with content for bushi and courtiers and shugenja. It isn't the same thing as bloodycelt was suggesting, where you have to buy another book if you want to play that type of game; as Shosuro said, the core book contains enough to get you started with all the basic elements of L5R. But things like Great Clan splatbooks apparently don't sell that well anymore, and I agree with those who say they'd be seriously annoyed if FFG's L5R expected me to buy three or four books just to get the whole starting package. Mixed content is a better route to go, from a sales perspective.

Well, if 5th edition is going to force me to read through each book to get a small snippet of something to get the whole picture like 4th, forget it.

The pain of waiting 9 months for a "pillar" supplement is understandable, but the pain of having to search through 12 books to find that small bit of info on something is forever.

Someone made an "Index of Gamemechanics"...you can download it here .

I use this index a lot and it is really useful if you look for a specific School or Path, or know the name of a spell but can't remember which book described the spell.

And I prefer buying 10-15 books with content for every "class" over having to buy 30 to 40 books with Clan-specific or "Class"-specific content.

One thing that AEG did well later in the line was collecting all of the mechanical aspects at the back of the book. If there's one thing I don't like about Great Clans and Emerald Empire (especially Emerald Empire, where it's not even organized by Clan), it's playing "hunt the mechanics" chapter by chapter.

Honestly, I think sometimes the RPG gets a little heavy-handed with some of the "unwesternisms", tries a little too hard in that regard.

Since I love Japan and even took the Tokugawa-era as specialtopic for my matriculation in history, I don't have that problem.

But I understand that most people have troubles with the ways of the rules of etiquette from the asian countries. Therefore I made a quick reference with the rules which I find most important for my players. I'm happy if they read it and use it, but I don't demand it. Since their Samurai are educated in those things, most of the times I ignore it and just assume that the playercharacter knows how to bow, address the persone s/he is talking to, how to word the things and so on. Of course there are situations were I ask the players how they present themselves and what they chose as a gift or other things, but not without shortly explaining how it works.

My players are happy about how I handle the whole etiquette and I still have fun playing.

In case of interest:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B9ePcRR0ppr4QUlSazNDWER5ams

Yes, the "how to adress people"-part is a bit different from the information in the Imperial Archives, but I wrote my version before the Archives were printed and I've been too lazy to change it.

Looking for something else, saw this again. Thanks for posting that.