How many times do we have to outline stuff shugenja could do that isn't blessing the mother-flipping crops?

The only thing that's needed to solve the "shugenja outshine bushi and courtiers" problem is to treat the religious and spiritual aspects of Rokugan as more than just window dressing. Make those things important, and hey presto, you have a sphere where shugenja can be the leaders, and stuff for their magic to do that isn't bushi-ing or courtier-ing via kami.

As I said, unless you want to add a third tier of things for Bushi and Courtiers to try and buy into, religous/spiritual events are exclusive to Shugenja. A Courtier can pick up a few ranks of weapon skills, A Bushi can take up an art skill and a few ranks of etiquette.

4th Edition has a LOT of info on the spiritual aspects of Rokugan, in fact it also has a boat load of spells that interact with the spirits and ghosts, etc.

Guess what, GM's usually ignore that, why? Because unless its a specific campaign, every other player will just yawn.

It probably wouldn't be a bad thing to make those things more relevant to characters in general, yes. EVERYONE live in the world of the kami, and while only shugenja can directly communicate with them, it is possible for any mortals to please or anger them, and one could go with the idea that there are a variety of rituals that may be performed to appease or even draw their favor that don't actually involve getting a shugenja to meddle, otherwise shugenja would never have time for anything else.

Though aren't those skills already in the game? They're just skills that tend not to come up much...

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That said, ultimately, RPGs live and die on what happens on the battlefield, or, possibly, in the case of L5R, the court (and even then, less so). Got to figure out how to make shugs useful on the battlefield without eclipsing samurai, and in the courts without eclipsing courtiers. It's doable, but it will require work.

As I said, unless you want to add a third tier of things for Bushi and Courtiers to try and buy into, religous/spiritual events are exclusive to Shugenja.

Yeah, but absent some kind of spirit interaction system to *drive* the human - spiritual interaction, they're basically skills that only come up in very limited context.

Everyone (or most people) understands why courtly interaction matters. Everyone understands why battles matters. Not everyone understands why relations with the spirit realm matter.

Just want to point out...

If you excise the rules for shugenja, you leave the entire Phoenix Clan orbiting an essentially empty space.

You'd be left with some Asako Courtiers and monks, the Shiba defending the descendants of Guy Whose Family Does Something You Must Buy Another Book To Find Out!, and Those Guys From the Dragon Clan Who Also Do The Stuff In Book Two!

Yeah, but absent some kind of spirit interaction system to *drive* the human - spiritual interaction, they're basically skills that only come up in very limited context.

Everyone (or most people) understands why courtly interaction matters. Everyone understands why battles matters. Not everyone understands why relations with the spirit realm matter.

Because the stories have not been written in a way where the spirit realms matter as anything other than Thing Trying to Kill Us This Week (therefore falls under the "battle" umbrella). I'm not claiming that what I describe is a reflection of L5R as it currently is; I'm saying that if L5R added this aspect, I would find it much richer and I also think game balance would benefit.

Well, then GM a short adventure which is about a displeased Fortune or something similar.

I even wrote two adventures down, shared them and both got played and the feedback was good. In one group they used my adventure without a Shugenja and still got a chance to solve the problem with the displeased Fortune, because if the Fortune wants to talk with you it doesn't matter if you are a Shugenja or not.

I wouldn't want the Shugenja and supernatural-stuff in a different Corerulebook. I want to be able to play a Court-Adventure interrupted by supernatural means with the same book I use for a 7-Samurai-Adventure. The 7-Samurai-Adventure can vary from normal bandits/ Ronin rading a village on a regular basis to a horde of goblins, ghosts or the like rading the village. Why should I need various systems for playing the same adventure just because one time it is about normal people and one time it is including supernatural stuff?

Like I already posted, besides the fact that magic is "overpowered" to begin with and I don't have the feeling that Shugenja outshine Bushi or Courtiers, I would solve the "problem" in a different way:

.) changing the TNs for some spells, or rearranging the Mastery Levels
.) reducing the number of new spells after gaining a new schoolrank from 3 spells to 2 or 1, or limiting the spells (for example 2 from your new Rank and 1 of higher Rank) .)

.) having to make a successful Spellcraft (spellresearch) /Element-roll with a slightly reduced TN for gaining the new chosen spells (like you sensei teaches you the prayer, but you have to write down the scroll yourself)

.) I'd stick with the spellscrolls since it give everyone the opportunity to render a Shugenja useless by hiding the scrollsatchel, destroying a certain spellscroll or something the like (this may remindt the player that s/he can use XP on memorizing some spells)

Another way might also be to completly change the way of handling the spelllist. We could rearrange the spells not into Mastery Ranks per Element but rather in groups of uses, like Defense, Attack, Support, Utility. Attack spells may have a higher TN for casting than Defense, depending on their power. I'd keep the "Summoned Weapon"-spell sort of low, because you still need a fitting skill or use your school-skill for making your attack-roll.

So the spell list may look like this:
Attack:

Bo of Water
Ring/TN/Keyword: Water/ 15/ Craft

Envious Flames
Ring/TN/Keyword: Fire/ 20/ -

Tempest of Air
Ring/TN/Keyword: Air/ 15/ Thunder

Jade Strike
Ring/TN/Keyword: Earth/ 20/ Jade, Thunder

Defense:

Ebbing Strenght
Ring/TN/Keyword: Water/ 10/ Defense (this one fits support too...)

Fires of Purity
Ring/TN/Keyword: Fire/ 10/ Defense

Blessed Wind
Ring/TN/Keyword: Air/ 10/ Defense

Armor of Earth
Ring/TN/Keyword: Earth/ 10/ Battle, Defense

The high spells from Rank 5 and 6 may still be listed with a fitting TN, but require you to commune with the kami first or they may require a fitting offering which is hard to get.

Just some ideas which came to mind, I didn't think them through since I don't have problems that the Shugenja in my groups outshine their Bushi or Courtier companions. But I would prefer a solution like this over a number of books and not being able to embrace Rokugan as it is.

Also I have to say that Emerald Empire is interesting, if one is interested in the setting and needs more information, but it is not necessary to read it. Enemies of the Empire is a different kind of story, since there are about 15 pages of information on animals, monsters and other possible opponents.

The high spells from Rank 5 and 6 may still be listed with a fitting TN, but require you to commune with the kami first or they may require a fitting offering which is hard to get.

Just some ideas which came to mind, I didn't think them through since I don't have problems that the Shugenja in my groups outshine their Bushi or Courtier companions. But I would prefer a solution like this over a number of books and not being able to embrace Rokugan as it is.

Also I have to say that Emerald Empire is interesting, if one is interested in the setting and needs more information, but it is not necessary to read it. Enemies of the Empire is a different kind of story, since there are about 15 pages of information on animals, monsters and other possible opponents.

This would be aweful when you don´t change the comune mechanic. The reason is that a) you would use 2 spell slots for 1 spell which is a cost far to high since the spells were built for 1 slot per spell and b) the comune let you use the spell only 1 hour after the comune is finished. Also comuning takes 5 minutes + 5 minuets per spell lvl this means a lvl 6 spell needs you to comune for 25 to 30 minutes. This means you need to know that you will need the spell at least 30 minutes in advance to be able to cast it in the siuation where you need it. Which is not possible if the gm don´t want to spoil things liek ok in 30 minutes you will be in combat.

So if we say you don´t can know in advance that you need the you have to cast the comune spell when you need the spell. This does not work cause you need 25 to 30 minutes comuning to cast the high lvl which is far longer than the combat is lasting,

So what your change does is that it removes high lvl combat spells all together if we don´t change the comune mechanic too.

Since I want that a Shuegnja can cast the high lvl spells in combat and don´t have to actually predict the future I think there shoudl be a different way.

As I allready said one example would be IC quests to get the high lvl spells. A different way would be to give the bushi opportunities to close the gap like giving them chances to double their dmg with a technique or even give then techniques which lets them kill people with 1 strike.

Also courtier could get more techniques that are on the lvl of the yasuki courtier. Like the Bayushi courtier could go for wide manipulation of the local court and getting periodical blackmail though his spies about the people which are present there.

But shuting the Shugenja down in the way you propse only has one consquence and that is that the Shuegnaj becomes a class people don´t want to play cause the endgame is pretty anoying when they allway have to go for ok what could happen in the next 2 hours and when

do I have to comune that I get my spell at point x.

You didn't read my text, did you?

I just posted 4 ideas on how one could "fix" something, which doesn't need to be fixed in my opinion. And you, of all people, complain about one of the possible solutions. You, who complain about "overpowered and unbalanced Shugenja" all the time, now wants to cast "overpowered and unbalanced" spells at the same cost as every other spell? That's really funny.

Of course the commune or rather importune mechanic would have to be adapted as well, if the ML5 and 6 spells wouldn't be gained through spellscrolls anymore, but since I didn't come up with an idea on how it may work without breaking the game, I didn't write anything on it. And to me it seems to be a fair price to pay 2 Spellslots for being able to "kill an entire army" or "destroy a city".

You didn't read my text, did you?

I just posted 4 ideas on how one could "fix" something, which doesn't need to be fixed in my opinion. And you, of all people, complain about one of the possible solutions. You, who complain about "overpowered and unbalanced Shugenja" all the time, now wants to cast "overpowered and unbalanced" spells at the same cost as every other spell? That's really funny.

I did but I don´t concider the option viable. Also I don´t complain about the powerlvl. For me it is not high enough cause I really like Wuxia and Anime. I actually want to have more powerful Bushi and Courtier.

I you remember I was the one who said I think it should be possible for a BUshi to strike the Crab Wall into 2 parts and make a hole in it.

Like I already posted, besides the fact that magic is "overpowered" to begin with and I don't have the feeling that Shugenja outshine Bushi or Courtiers, I would solve the "problem" in a different way:

.) changing the TNs for some spells, or rearranging the Mastery Levels

.) reducing the number of new spells after gaining a new schoolrank from 3 spells to 2 or 1, or limiting the spells (for example 2 from your new Rank and 1 of higher Rank) .)

.) having to make a successful Spellcraft (spellresearch) /Element-roll with a slightly reduced TN for gaining the new chosen spells (like you sensei teaches you the prayer, but you have to write down the scroll yourself)

.) I'd stick with the spellscrolls since it give everyone the opportunity to render a Shugenja useless by hiding the scrollsatchel, destroying a certain spellscroll or something the like (this may remindt the player that s/he can use XP on memorizing some spells)

These Ideas are either yelling for more mion Maxing to final yjust ignore them ( 1 and 3). Making playing a Shuegnja unrewarding cause you have to roll for you new techniques, whcih is soemthing I really dislike cause rewards should be certain and

not something like because you maybe get your new spell or maybe not and /or are just havce to streamline your Shugenja until each Shugenja you build has the same spell line up since getting even less spells than now actually is a pain and leaves even less

room for cool flavor things like extinguish.(2 and 3).

And the tings with the spells scrolls is just a mistake. Yes they shoudl delay the casting but they actually don´t do this cause you just drop them to the earth. And stealing them also is not a good thing cause each shugenja a) keep them close to him at any moment

b) makes copies he stores in different players to make sure noboy can render him totaly uselss or c) is just memoriztng the spells. So rendering a Shuegnaj useless by stealing scroll is not going to be so easy.

Shiba Giunichi, The Pheonix have Shiba artisans, yojimbo, and loremasters. The Isawa family would be in the book, just not the shugenja school except for notes on how to NPC them.

The Dragon have the Kitsuki and the Mirumoto to send to court.

I'm not talking about putting the basic fortunes and religion in a different book. A displeased fortune could just as easily be done in the new book as the old one. More that anything beyond some basic utility spells would not be in the first book.

The First Book would have the Core Rules, the courtier and bushi schools, and the Courtly Information from Emerald Empire, Imperial Archives and Sword and Fan. It would still have the Core Rules section on religion.

The Second Book would have the Core Rules, the shugenja schools, as well as the other specialized schools (Like the Toritaka, and the Witch Hunters ) in addition to the Spirit Realms/Shadowlands/Maho stuff from Enemies of the Empire, and advanced information regarding Religion and Spirit Realms. (Stuff from the Element Books)

I loath the idea of a prolifferation of books needed to run the game and understand the setting.

L5R has a huge scope. It has always required more than the Core book to explain the setting to people not in the know.

I actually think for the majority of folks The First Book would be all thats needed. And a larger minority the Second Book would be all they needed.

The fundamental aspects of the setting and system/mechanics should not be scattered across more than 2 books tops.

Nothing that makes major changes to how the system works and nothing critical to playing a certain class or clan should be outside those books.

Yeah, I'm really not on board with that kind of split. Sure, L5R is a complex enough game that you need more than one book to fully explore all the different parts. But I don't ever want it to be set up such that you need more than one book just to get started . You can run a perfectly cromulent campaign with nothing but the 4e core book, and there won't be any major holes in it (like "you can't play X school tag because there aren't any rules for it here"). Even Enemies of the Empire just provides you with MORE enemies, to supplement the small number you got originally.

Speaking of which, I would really like to see all six "classes" (Bushi, Courtier, Shugenja, Ninja, Monk, Artisan) in the Core Rulebook, appropriate Schools included. Also, it would be nice if the Scout and Magistrate became their own separate "class" rather than being folded into the Bushi.

Speaking of which, I would really like to see all six "classes" (Bushi, Courtier, Shugenja, Ninja, Monk, Artisan) in the Core Rulebook, appropriate Schools included. Also, it would be nice if the Scout and Magistrate became their own separate "class" rather than being folded into the Bushi.

If we get out to that many classes, we might want to revisit the idea of having basic mechanics for each class and making the schools "specializations" thereof, instead of having every single school be a "special snowflake".

More seriously, I'd also suggest that anything we say that a "class" can do, needs to first be explored and explained in terms of how "normal" people and everyone not a member of that "class" engages in that same activity.

Anyone can learn to fight, Bushi have extra and often exclusive training on top of that.

Anyone should be able to have a conversation, try to convince or cajole or coerce, make friends and embarras an enemy -- Courtiers should simply be better or more versatile or whatever.

Anyone with a keen eye and critical mind should be able to investigate to some degree, but Kitsuki and certain magistrates receive special training.

Anyone with the free time and some talent can learn how to express themselves through an art form they have access to... but Artisans receive special training and get to dedicate their lives to their art.

Not everyone can directly talk to the elemental kami -- HOWEVER , that doesn't mean that non-Shugenja shouldn't have rituals and prayers and suplications to the kami, ancestors, local shrine or forest spirits, ancestors, Fortunates, Kami, etc... and it shouldn't mean that those prayers always go unheard and unaddressed.

Etc.

Typos... so many typos...

Speaking of which, I would really like to see all six "classes" (Bushi, Courtier, Shugenja, Ninja, Monk, Artisan) in the Core Rulebook, appropriate Schools included. Also, it would be nice if the Scout and Magistrate became their own separate "class" rather than being folded into the Bushi.

If we get out to that many classes, we might want to revisit the idea of having basic mechanics for each class and making the schools "specializations" thereof, instead of having every single school be a "special snowflake".

I have no problem with special snowflake Schools - they add flavor, and it is always nice - but generic Schools would cool. Sometimes, you want to play Average Joe the Generic Crane Bushi and not Special Snowflake Steve the Kakita Master Duelist.

I don't see the need to make Scouts and Magistrates separate things, especially in a society where (we are repeatedly told) most magistrates aren't trained in a magistrate school, and getting the job is more about nepotism and political favor than specialized ability. And what would distinguish scouts from bushi on the one hand (honorable samurai who operate in wilderness areas and/or sneak for the good of their clan) and ninja on the other (dishonorable samurai who sneak for reprehensible reasons)? It's fine to have those be given different names IC, but the actual school tag is an issue of mechanics, and I don't think adding more would do a whole lot for the system.

If we get out to that many classes, we might want to revisit the idea of having basic mechanics for each class and making the schools "specializations" thereof, instead of having every single school be a "special snowflake".

I don't agree with you on this because it removes the main idea of a Dojo. When you take a look at the number of martial arts, there's quite a lot of them but most of them don't have the same base. It's not about "special snowflake", it's the basis of an art. You might see a Bushi as a simple fighter, but it's way different.

I don't see how you can make a "basic mechanics" by mixing these following Schools: Tsuruchi Archer, Kakita Bushi and Mirumoto Bushi... Honestly, I've pick those three because they are very different and just don't have any way to merge them as a "basic mechanics". One is all about using a Bow, one is all about dueling and the other about fighting with two swords... I don't see how you can find a common trunk with those.

I really think that most people want to keep the School as it is. Yes it's bigger, yes it takes more time to design, yes it's harder to balance, but it's way more fitting in the L5R Setting.

And what would distinguish scouts from bushi on the one hand (honorable samurai who operate in wilderness areas and/or sneak for the good of their clan) and ninja on the other (dishonorable samurai who sneak for reprehensible reasons)?

Unlike the Bushi, Scouts don't have fighting as their primary task. Their main job is... well... scouting: finding stuff, leading people from Point A to Point B, tracking and wilderness survival, and so on. The differ from Ninjas in the way that Ninjas do infiltration primarily and not scouting. You can say that Scouts are neither a combat-oriented nor a stealth-oriented class, even though they can do both if they wish.

If we get out to that many classes, we might want to revisit the idea of having basic mechanics for each class and making the schools "specializations" thereof, instead of having every single school be a "special snowflake".

I don't agree with you on this because it removes the main idea of a Dojo. When you take a look at the number of martial arts, there's quite a lot of them but most of them don't have the same base. It's not about "special snowflake", it's the basis of an art. You might see a Bushi as a simple fighter, but it's way different.

I don't see how you can make a "basic mechanics" by mixing these following Schools: Tsuruchi Archer, Kakita Bushi and Mirumoto Bushi... Honestly, I've pick those three because they are very different and just don't have any way to merge them as a "basic mechanics". One is all about using a Bow, one is all about dueling and the other about fighting with two swords... I don't see how you can find a common trunk with those.

I really think that most people want to keep the School as it is. Yes it's bigger, yes it takes more time to design, yes it's harder to balance, but it's way more fitting in the L5R Setting.

There are only so many ways to swing a sword.

Ultimately, I think sticking to the basic Bushi/Courtier/Shugenja trinity make the most sense. Scouts may have particular training among Bushi, but they're still a bushi sub-type whose role is all about warfare and combat, just in sneakier ways than your average bushi. Magistrates is a social rank that sometime come with additional training and the rare specialized school, and is open to bushis, courtiers and shugenjas alike, and should not be represented as a different class altogether in the game.

Most of those that don't fit in the trinity tend to be restricted to a clan or two - Monks and Ninjas both fall outside the trinity, but then again, both tend to be absent outside two or three clans (Phoenix and Dragon have monks schools, the other clans not so much ; Scorpion and Spider have ninja, the other clans not so much).

Kinzen, I can see that. But look at SW, each book has all the rules you need even for using the force. But Jedi are in their own book. Especially if you look at the setting it makes sense to separate the game out.

You could have one focusing on Magistrates, hunting down maho-cultists, solving murders, laying dead ghosts to rest.

Another is focusing on being part of a clan delegation, duels, game of letters, matchmaking, sadane, art, etc.

And a thrid about being in the military, rising up in military ranks, tactics, war, mass battles.

But yes the core of all the books should have the same system and rules, but with these focuses, it also allows for each book to focus the clans and schools toward a theme.

But yes the core of all the books should have the same system and rules, but with these focuses, it also allows for each book to focus the clans and schools toward a theme.

So... uhm... like the Book of Air/Earth/Fire/Water/Spooky Ninjas?