For me as a GM it is all I need. When I feel like a Shugenja is overusing his/her power as a caster I simply ask: When was the last time you prayed without casting? When did you last visit a shrine or temple? When was the last time you offered something to the kami?

If the player can't answer these: Sorry, but you no longer feel the support of the kami. They don't answer your prayer, since you forgot your priestly duties.

Completely sincere question: how often have you had this interaction while GMing? How did the player react? How did it work out?

I'm starting to think some people here want a perfect game, when that is obviously impossible.

I'm also noticing a troubling trend of "let's remove the restrictions on spell-list, spells per day, etc.... but include restrictions that enforce the RPing of the priestly section" - when the rules as are exist to give support to that flavor whit a little more finesse than just hammering it down on the players. Besides... Guys... enforcing (or rather, encouraging) the RP of the flavor of a character is -your job- as GMs. And sorry if I'm coming out too harsh, but if you need a "roleplay cookbook" with all the little elements and ingredients detailed to the very last bit and piece.... then you really need to consider whether it wouldn't be better to ask someone else to be the GM and go back to being a player. You folks have brains - use them.

Well, I would ask for one Raise because his concentration is down or ask for a Willpower roll against TN 15 or 20 because he is spiritually exhausted.

But I've never been in this situation. I GM 4 groups and an Oneshot every now and then and never had problems with an overpowered Shugenja who overuses his/her magic. So this ae all just ideas on how one could handle these situations.

@Maxkilljoy: I count at least 3 posts were D&D-wizard was used for Shugenja... And, like EVERY roleplaying-corerulesbook, also the L5R corerulesbook says "Make your own rules if you don't like something".

And regarding the if I need X books to play...than you should count youself lucky if you are not a german-speaking person, because here we have a RPG called "Das schwarze Auge" and guess what, in the 4th Edition you need up to 4 books for character creation and the corerulebook is totally useless.

THANK YOU, Bayushi-san!

I'm starting to think some people here want a perfect game, when that is obviously impossible.

I'm also noticing a troubling trend of "let's remove the restrictions on spell-list, spells per day, etc.... but include restrictions that enforce the RPing of the priestly section" - when the rules as are exist to give support to that flavor whit a little more finesse than just hammering it down on the players. Besides... Guys... enforcing (or rather, encouraging) the RP of the flavor of a character is -your job- as GMs. And sorry if I'm coming out too harsh, but if you need a "roleplay cookbook" with all the little elements and ingredients detailed to the very last bit and piece.... then you really need to consider whether it wouldn't be better to ask someone else to be the GM and go back to being a player. You folks have brains - use them.

I for my part want a limiting system for the shugenja but not the one we have. I really dislike the concetion of the spells slots to the rings and would like to have something which is mor flexible. Therefore giving them something liek spirit points they can use to cast the spells and whcih get faster refilled when comuning to the Kami and visiting temples or praying.

Actually I think the meditationmechanic to refil void could work as a good example for a prayer mechanic to refil spell slots.

Yes I want a perfect game and yes it is not possible to reach perfectio? But only the ones who stil strive for it can get better in what they do so I still try to reach is cause the way is the goal.

For the folks you have brains I only can say don´t assume things from player cuase this wil not work. It is far safer to just give them clear and useful guidlines than let them figue all out themself.

@Maxkilljoy: I count at least 3 posts were D&D-wizard was used for Shugenja... And, like EVERY roleplaying-corerulesbook, also the L5R corerulesbook says "Make your own rules if you don't like something".

And regarding the if I need X books to play...than you should count youself lucky if you are not a german-speaking person, because here we have a RPG called "Das schwarze Auge" and guess what, in the 4th Edition you need up to 4 books for character creation and the corerulebook is totally useless.

This changed sicne Das schwarze Auge has received a new 5th edtion and so you onyl need 1 book for the moment being so no problem there anymore.

Do you really need a rule for anything?

Do I need a rule for everything? No.

Do I need a rule for my GM deciding that the abilities on my sheet suddenly don't work anymore? Yes.

No, I'm not trolling, and I proposed some solutions here and there; what I'm generally doing is challenging the assumption that it's okay, or even actually desirable, to provide a flawed product. Being aware of the game flaws doesn't automatically make us hate the game, or say that game is bad; it also doesn't somehow assault idea of games in this game system being good (though they are probably good despite these flaws, not because of them). Still, I have no obligation of providing a solution to these problems; and demanding so is inherently unfair. If I could conjure up a great mechanic for a game from a hat in one day, I certainly wouldn't bother posting it here, but would be busy working on some actual game somewhere and getting some sweet dough for it .

RPG games are expensive hobby. For a price of one corebook, I can watch 4 movies, buy 3 books, buy one new AAA video game, or buy 1/2 of a big board game. Which means that I'm going to expect quality of at least a good video game in how book is presented, written and designed. Which, among other things, means expecting that I'm going to have finished product, and not a product with large unfinished areas of "figure it up yourself" in critical parts of presented game.

Which means that yes, if game sells me an archetype as one of Major Things You Can Play As, and says that These Are Things You Are Supposed To Do While Playing As This Thing, I am going to expect the game to present a way to play this thing, engaging my decision making on both character-building, roleplaying and gameplay (dicerolling/mechanical/crunch) levels. If game boasts about having ability to play a necromancer and create your own undead army, I'm going to expect recipe on how to play such a guy, and interesting, well explained gameplay of composing and using your undead army.

If game boasts about being able to play a matchmaker, and spins tales of how I'm going to experience it in a fantastic way, then I'm expecting that it will present an interesting way to engage me on all three dimensions of "playing the game".

While yes, I have enough experience under my belt to fix up the system on fly and present a fun and enjoyable game session towards my players, it doesn't mean that it gives game designers licence to be lazy and throw me incomplete and flawed products, because "they will figure something out".

Sure, expecting a perfect game is naive, but demanding one isn't . There is nothing wrong or bad about wanting games to meet quality standards of modern products, especially remembering that THESE games aren't written by one person in their garage like RPG games of ye olde times, but are handled by professionals paid cash for their job. And RPG games, unlike RPG characters, aren't made of XP budget, so there is no real requirement of having to decide between "good gameplay mechanics" and "good roleplaying stimulations"; it is possible to have both. Not trying to have both good is simply laziness on part of game designers.

I'm starting to think some people here want a perfect game, when that is obviously impossible.

I'm also noticing a troubling trend of "let's remove the restrictions on spell-list, spells per day, etc.... but include restrictions that enforce the RPing of the priestly section" - when the rules as are exist to give support to that flavor whit a little more finesse than just hammering it down on the players. Besides... Guys... enforcing (or rather, encouraging) the RP of the flavor of a character is -your job- as GMs. And sorry if I'm coming out too harsh, but if you need a "roleplay cookbook" with all the little elements and ingredients detailed to the very last bit and piece.... then you really need to consider whether it wouldn't be better to ask someone else to be the GM and go back to being a player. You folks have brains - use them.

I for my part want a limiting system for the shugenja but not the one we have. I really dislike the concetion of the spells slots to the rings and would like to have something which is mor flexible. Therefore giving them something liek spirit points they can use to cast the spells and whcih get faster refilled when comuning to the Kami and visiting temples or praying.

Actually I think the meditationmechanic to refil void could work as a good example for a prayer mechanic to refil spell slots.

Yes I want a perfect game and yes it is not possible to reach perfectio? But only the ones who stil strive for it can get better in what they do so I still try to reach is cause the way is the goal.

For the folks you have brains I only can say don´t assume things from player cuase this wil not work. It is far safer to just give them clear and useful guidlines than let them figue all out themself.

@Maxkilljoy: I count at least 3 posts were D&D-wizard was used for Shugenja... And, like EVERY roleplaying-corerulesbook, also the L5R corerulesbook says "Make your own rules if you don't like something".

And regarding the if I need X books to play...than you should count youself lucky if you are not a german-speaking person, because here we have a RPG called "Das schwarze Auge" and guess what, in the 4th Edition you need up to 4 books for character creation and the corerulebook is totally useless.

This changed sicne Das schwarze Auge has received a new 5th edtion and so you onyl need 1 book for the moment being so no problem there anymore.

Well, if we were to use Spiritpoint aka Mana and wouldn't tie it to the elements, the value of the Rings would lower AND the fireball-slinging Shugenja may sling evenmore fireballs, because there are most seemingly no restrictions on how often you can cast spell from a specifi element. So it wouldn't really fix the problem, the problem would just shift.

BUT I really like the idea of recharging spellslots or whatever through praying, I always thought of inventing a houserule for recharching up to 1 Spellslot from you affinity element through Meditation.

Regarding DSA, yes...for a while there will only be the new editions corebook. We will see for how long it will stay this way, this system is infamous for too many rulebooks.

Reagrding striving for perfetion: it is a good thing to do, as long as one does not get tangled up in wanting everything to be perfect and expect perfection from everyone. At least in my opinion. But still, we humans are imperfect so it is part of our nature.

@WHW: I didn't demand a solution. I just want that people try to think of a way on how to fix a problem first. It really doesn't help anyone if everyone is whining over something, but no one is able to present at least one possibility of a solution, so everybody can talk about this possibility.

Everytime something bothers me at a con or a recipe or a game I ask myself, why does it bother me and how would I fix it.

Sometimes I come to realize I can't fix it, mostly when it comes to games.

Sometimes I come up with a possible solution and then I write to the organizer a feedback or simply change the recipe. And my feedbacks always start with what I liked about the con, what I disliked and how I would change things and end again with what I liked. And up until now the feedback regarding my feedbacks were always positiv and sometimes the oragnizer did change the things in the way I suggested.

And at last:

When I started to play L5R I fell in love with it, because I love Asia, especially Japan. Still I always had the feeling that something is missing. Than I learned that there is a cardgame which is the basis of the RPG and has heavy influence on the game. That was the time when I came to realize what I felt missing: the "heart" of the writers. It somehow feels like the RPG is the stepchild, like "yeah, there are some people playing it and we make good money with it, so we make more supplements, but we are more focused on the cardgame".

I still love the RPG and if there were changes in a new Edition which I don't like I will stick with 4th Edition. I like the community and keep writing some adventures to share with everyone and I keep trying to inspire others to play L5R. But it hurts my heart if someone tries to compare the Shugenja with a wizard, because it isn't so. At least in my view. But this may just be a fangirl talking.

I also love L5R, and that's why I'm critcizing it so much, because things we like deserve it the most .
And yes, I really like idea of recharging [limited resource fueling your more outlandish feats] by performing [class or character defining activity that has great roleplaying value but little next to none incentive to do in actual gameplay]. This way you can have bushi restore their (let's say, everyone are running their stuff by expending Void Points) Void Points by performing kata and training, Shugenja do so by praying, and Courtiers having tea ceremony.

Which...brings me certain radical idea; what if all three major archetypes have open access to list of abilities (so, kata for Bushi, Schemes for courtiers, and Prayers for Shugenja), and you literally can grab anything you met requirements for...as long as you spend X time performing your training/scheming/praying? This basically follows idea of horizontal growth, where characters get access to many different abilities, but can only gain access to limited number of them at any given time, while "switching them out" during downtime.

Perfectly, all three lists would have access to Martial/Social/Spiritual perks, but priced differently and with different flavor (thankfully, asian philosophy of martial arts / religion / relationships allow to make it really flavorful and put emphasis on how different is "bonus to spot lies" gained from martial discipline, social acumen, and awareness of spiritual world).

Well, if we were to use Spiritpoint aka Mana and wouldn't tie it to the elements, the value of the Rings would lower AND the fireball-slinging Shugenja may sling evenmore fireballs, because there are most seemingly no restrictions on how often you can cast spell from a specifi element. So it wouldn't really fix the problem, the problem would just shift.

I agree with the current system it would not solve the problem but I think it could be a good start to provide a better overall system. The reason is that the spells are currently balanced arround the fact that you have these spell slots tied to the elements. If we shift to Spirit points we still could keep the rings meaning and let him get his spells over the Rings. Tying the mastery lvl to the rings would strike me as Idea this actually could restrict the general avaibility of the Spells cause you can put the mastery lvl of the end Game spells higher but still make them aviable for really decidcated specialists like Fire Tensai.

To the bonus for favored elements would also be shifted to the ring for this purpose.

The shift for the Spiritpoints would mean we need to get the cost for casting a spell up acording to the spirit strenght and the number of spiritpoints you would have but this also would prevent the Shugenja from having a to strong spell at an early lvl cause his points would be not enough to cast him anyway.

So with a combination of these points, the adjustment of the cost to cast the spell according to its power and the shift to a ring based mastery level could balance the Shugenja out a bit. Cause it would keep the high end game power for speciallists but prevent the ealygame domination through to powerfull spells.

I'm starting to think some people here want a perfect game, when that is obviously impossible.

I'm also noticing a troubling trend of "let's remove the restrictions on spell-list, spells per day, etc.... but include restrictions that enforce the RPing of the priestly section" - when the rules as are exist to give support to that flavor whit a little more finesse than just hammering it down on the players. Besides... Guys... enforcing (or rather, encouraging) the RP of the flavor of a character is -your job- as GMs. And sorry if I'm coming out too harsh, but if you need a "roleplay cookbook" with all the little elements and ingredients detailed to the very last bit and piece.... then you really need to consider whether it wouldn't be better to ask someone else to be the GM and go back to being a player. You folks have brains - use them.

At least as far my comments go, it's not about "enforcing rollplaying". It's about having setting and system both point in the same direction for one of the core character types in the game.

It's about adding to the "feel of being in a place."

It's about encouraging something, not about enforcing something or punishing players or handcuffing GMs.

Just give a couple of pages to how the fact that shugenja magic comes from communication with the spirits of the world affects things. If the spirits in a place are angry or imbalanced, how does that affect casting? What pleases and angers different kinds of spirits? How does a shugenja's behavior, piety, attitude, etc, possibly affect their interaction with the spirits? Do any of the spirits react to a character's Honor, Glory/Infamy, Status, etc? Are spells only derivable from the four classic elemental spirits (and void) or are there spells derivable from the other spirit realms, etc?

Is there some way to bake the setting facts into the system mechanics without being punitive or weighing things down?

At least as far my comments go, it's not about "enforcing rollplaying". It's about having setting and system both point in the same direction for one of the core character types in the game.

It's about adding to the "feel of being in a place."

It's about encouraging something, not about enforcing something or punishing players or handcuffing GMs.

Just give a couple of pages to how the fact that shugenja magic comes from communication with the spirits of the world affects things. If the spirits in a place are angry or imbalanced, how does that affect casting? What pleases and angers different kinds of spirits? How does a shugenja's behavior, piety, attitude, etc, possibly affect their interaction with the spirits? Do any of the spirits react to a character's Honor, Glory/Infamy, Status, etc? Are spells only derivable from the four classic elemental spirits (and void) or are there spells derivable from the other spirit realms, etc?

Is there some way to bake the setting facts into the system mechanics without being punitive or weighing things down?

Sometime it's possible some other time it's not possible to have both RP and system to go in the exact direction. Both may go in the general direction but will not exactly pinpoint the very same thing. There's a limit and some sound like they are asking to pinpoint and almost have a system that takes your hand and babyspoon you to your RP.

Finding a good balance of mechanics and freedom is something that you have to think about. If you have too much mechanics, the game may become a chore, than a game. I'll take the example of standing up from bed, if I remember it's in the corebook (which I don't have at hand but I'm pretty sure there was an example like that in the corebook). The TN is something very low, as low as 5. Knowing this, you should always have to roll the stand up each time this occurs, however, you won't make them roll all the time because that's too much. The only reason it's there, it's for exceptional cases (Wound Penalties + other modifiers). It's a very small part in the book but when you think about it, it's common sense. If someone is wounded, sick and fatigued, yes standing up from his bed may be really hard. Did I really have to read this to do something like that? Honestly, no.

I agree for new mechanics but against giving a mechanics for anything. I don't want to have to buy a setting book and a rulebook just to start playing an RPG. I want one book that will give me enough to play a game. Then I'll look at supplements and take a look at the new mechanics from it, since these may fill holes that I encountered in my games. However, my holes may be different to someone else holes. This is where the problem stands. I understand that the whole Shugenja's holes may be a problem to some groups while it's not even a hole for others. Therefore adding a mechanics may be something that will make some happy and feel like a waste of time for other.

Some told me that the way that I'm handling these holes is not good because there's nothing in the corebook that supports it. I'm sharing theses experiences because it's idea to go in the next edition. To be able to bring something new, you need, yes, a problem, but also ideas to find solutions. You cannot simply say: "Hey guys, simply do that!". I'll join up Bayushi Karyudo in this because there's a zone where you have to step back from the mechanics when you're roleplaying. It's like when you're playing chess, you may know every rules, but knowing the rules don't mean that you now know strategies. I've pick the chess game because there's few rules, yet there's more than 10 pages to fill all the rules. Imagine in a complexe game like an RPG if we rule out everything possible. It's simply impossible.

Some even deny some new mechanics in supplements saying they are optional, but the 4th edition was build around mechanics that you should adjust when there's a need. Too bad the old AEG forum for L5R isn't up because there was a topic from the developers about that, encouraging the storytellers and players to change / add up a few things to make their game better, because there is no perfect game. The new edition can add up the prayer in the morning mechanics to refill the spell slots of the day and gets: "I'm doing my daily morning chores!" or even: "I won't say it anymore, but I'll do my chores every morning, k?" instead of the roleplay of a Shugenja doing his duty. Like I've seen in the 3rd edition with the Kata when you had to do them the morning to have the effect later, it felt kinda flat and boring. I've played another game where I was playing a Samurai and I was doing my kata even if there was no bonus for doing these and that felt less boring to do.

As for the Spellslot VS Spell Point, I've always seem them the same way... Let's say you have 3 spells slots in Air, you can see them as 3 Spell Points in Air and each spell cost 1 Spell Point. Feels like the very same just named another way. Also, I really like the way that some mechanics ask to spend these spell slots for their Shugenja's Technics and feel like there should have more.

Another thing that could be more exploited however is the Importune where you summon a kami and negociate with it for a favor, usually done in the 3th edition for a nemuranai. But I wonder if the soo called "OP spells" shouldn't be done through Importune in the next edition and no longer "normal spells"? You want to create an Earthquake to destroy another army? How about you create a deal with the kami. A deal that you'll have to respect your end or you'll gain some "infamy toward kami" which could change results for your next Importune.

I also love L5R, and that's why I'm critcizing it so much, because things we like deserve it the most .

And yes, I really like idea of recharging [limited resource fueling your more outlandish feats] by performing [class or character defining activity that has great roleplaying value but little next to none incentive to do in actual gameplay]. This way you can have bushi restore their (let's say, everyone are running their stuff by expending Void Points) Void Points by performing kata and training, Shugenja do so by praying, and Courtiers having tea ceremony.

Which...brings me certain radical idea; what if all three major archetypes have open access to list of abilities (so, kata for Bushi, Schemes for courtiers, and Prayers for Shugenja), and you literally can grab anything you met requirements for...as long as you spend X time performing your training/scheming/praying? This basically follows idea of horizontal growth, where characters get access to many different abilities, but can only gain access to limited number of them at any given time, while "switching them out" during downtime.

Perfectly, all three lists would have access to Martial/Social/Spiritual perks, but priced differently and with different flavor (thankfully, asian philosophy of martial arts / religion / relationships allow to make it really flavorful and put emphasis on how different is "bonus to spot lies" gained from martial discipline, social acumen, and awareness of spiritual world).

Your idea sounds interesting. It may give even more diversity to the individual Courtier and may help to make your own Doji Courtier, your very own Hida Bushi or Tamori Shugenja.

Well, if we were to use Spiritpoint aka Mana and wouldn't tie it to the elements, the value of the Rings would lower AND the fireball-slinging Shugenja may sling evenmore fireballs, because there are most seemingly no restrictions on how often you can cast spell from a specifi element. So it wouldn't really fix the problem, the problem would just shift.

I agree with the current system it would not solve the problem but I think it could be a good start to provide a better overall system. The reason is that the spells are currently balanced arround the fact that you have these spell slots tied to the elements. If we shift to Spirit points we still could keep the rings meaning and let him get his spells over the Rings. Tying the mastery lvl to the rings would strike me as Idea this actually could restrict the general avaibility of the Spells cause you can put the mastery lvl of the end Game spells higher but still make them aviable for really decidcated specialists like Fire Tensai.

To the bonus for favored elements would also be shifted to the ring for this purpose.

The shift for the Spiritpoints would mean we need to get the cost for casting a spell up acording to the spirit strenght and the number of spiritpoints you would have but this also would prevent the Shugenja from having a to strong spell at an early lvl cause his points would be not enough to cast him anyway.

So with a combination of these points, the adjustment of the cost to cast the spell according to its power and the shift to a ring based mastery level could balance the Shugenja out a bit. Cause it would keep the high end game power for speciallists but prevent the ealygame domination through to powerfull spells.

And how would you propose to calculate the number of spiritpoints? Would it be bound to the total of all Rings? Or to Void? Or would you get the number in some other way?

Thanky our Crawd! So there are still a few people who are able to see not only problems.

And how would you propose to calculate the number of spiritpoints? Would it be bound to the total of all Rings? Or to Void? Or would you get the number in some other way?

Depending on the number of points you would allaoctae to the different spells as a cost for them I think we could go with the Rings so that a Shugenja gets a greater pool of points when getting stronger and keeping the method of

calulating them simple cause you just can add the rings together and get the spirit points you have. Void alllone would strike me as to few therefore if you want that I would go for a multiplicator here like Void *5 but I think the ring version is better

cause it is not so demanding for the xp distribution as it oul be if we go for void or an extra stat.

...So, in short, you want to give shugenjas a "mana pool", and give spells a "mana cost". And give extra work to both players and GMs (yes, because checking if the math is right is necessary). For a benefit of.... turning the game similar to a MMORPG, it would seem?

...So, in short, you want to give shugenjas a "mana pool", and give spells a "mana cost". And give extra work to both players and GMs (yes, because checking if the math is right is necessary). For a benefit of.... turning the game similar to a MMORPG, it would seem?

II think your are looking from a far to negative angle on this. But yes bassicly I switch rigid recource managment system (/the spell slots , whcih are also kind of a mana pool ) to a more flexible one (the spirtit points). I don´t thinkt waht I say gives extra work but just replaces the work both had before cause the

actual cost of the spells would be made fromthe designers.

The benefit would be that the shugenja get a bit more controled in the power lvl cause you could balance arround the pool he has and don´t need the spellslots anymore. Also you can have a better growth of power chart for him while providing more flexibility.

And some MMORPG mechanics are actually not bad so why should we limit ourself when we restrain us from looking in all kind of RPG gernes and games if we want to creata a good one.

Best example is D&D 5th editon which actually took some of the more MMRPG things and the edtion and the large ofthe majority of the rules came out pretty good.

So yes it is also kind of an MMORPG mechnic but thats not a problem cause the fact that it resembles an MMORPG mechnic does not make it bad.

...So, in short, you want to give shugenjas a "mana pool", and give spells a "mana cost". And give extra work to both players and GMs (yes, because checking if the math is right is necessary). For a benefit of.... turning the game similar to a MMORPG, it would seem?

II think your are looking from a far to negative angle on this. But yes bassicly I switch rigid recource managment system (/the spell slots , whcih are also kind of a mana pool ) to a more flexible one (the spirtit points). I don´t thinkt waht I say gives extra work but just replaces the work both had before cause the

actual cost of the spells would be made fromthe designers.

The benefit would be that the shugenja get a bit more controled in the power lvl cause you could balance arround the pool he has and don´t need the spellslots anymore. Also you can have a better growth of power chart for him while providing more flexibility.

And some MMORPG mechanics are actually not bad so why should we limit ourself when we restrain us from looking in all kind of RPG gernes and games if we want to creata a good one.

Best example is D&D 5th editon which actually took some of the more MMRPG things and the edtion and the large ofthe majority of the rules came out pretty good.

So yes it is also kind of an MMORPG mechnic but thats not a problem cause the fact that it resembles an MMORPG mechnic does not make it bad.

Well for one thing the system with a "Mana"-Magic-System I played most was Anima: Beyond Fantasy. And I have the following to say regarding Mana/ Zeon/ Spiripoints/ Magicpoints:

.) If you have such things, there are always advantages to push your Manapool. So it doesn't end with switching from Spellslots to Spiritpoints.

.) There isn't really a difference in the use of either version, fromt he player viewpoint.

.) It is sort of more work since the player has to write down the total number of Spiritpoints and subtract the cost for every spell.

Let's stick with Anima, since I don't have a lv 1 Char and don't want to start looking for one I just take my wizard at lv3, she had 635 Zeon. She could accumulate 60 Zeon in one round to use them for a spell for max 60 Zeon cost per round. So she could cast a fireball with a cost of 50 Zeon every round for 12 rounds and would have 35 Zeon left, which she could not use, except for creating or putting out fire. So this would be equal to have 12 (fire) Spellslots. Except for more math, which slows down the game.

Let's compare this with an Agasha-Shugenja: At rank one the Shugenja would most likely have 11 Spellslots ( 3 Fire, 2 Water, Void, Earth and Air), so she could cast 3 fireballs ( Envious Flames ) and then has to use either the other spell or burn the Void-slots to, so max of 5 * Envious Flames . Since the Agasha have fire as affinity, our example Shugenja could cast 5* Fires from within instead of the Envious Flames.

So let's imagine we convert a spellslot into 10 Spiritpoints, this would give the Agasha 110 Spiritpoints. Let's say a Rank 1 Spell costs 10 Spiritpoints. Since the Spiritpoints are not locked to one Element, the Agasha is now able to cast 11 Envious Flames .

So, we could now say: Ok, you get less Spiritpoints for the Element of deficiency, which would be in the case of the Agasha Water. For keeping the math easy we say your Waterring is halfed (rounded down) for this purpose. Which would result in 10 as a total for the Elements, therefore our Agasha get's now 100 Spiritpoints and could now cast 10 Envious Flames .

Now let us assume the making with the affinity stays the same, so our Agasha would be able to cast Rank 2 spells. Let's say Rank 2 spells still cost 10 Spiritpoints, like it is with spellslots. So the Agasha could cast Fires from within also 10 times. We could now say, ok, higher spell = higher cost. So a Rank 2 spell would cost 20 Spiritpoints (to keep the math easy), so our Agasha would have the choice of casting 10 Envious Flames or 5 Fires from within .

So, at least in my quick example, nothing would really change. Instead it would make it possible to play a Shugenja which is even more focused on 1 Spell.

The Spirit-Points thing also introduces a very new element to the system; there is pretty much nothing "point-based" in the game. One of relative strengths of Spell Slot system was that it shared it's mechanic with Void Points (you have as much of this thing as you have proper Ring). Both Spirit Points and Spell Slots are abstract numbers, but one has to be calculated and one is X=Y. Though of course, you could make Spirit Points more granular, etc...but I feel that if you are going to make a game with such precise way of accounting magical power, it better be a *game about magical power* with *using Spirits Points in different amounts for different things* as a core feature.

And again, when designing such system, you need to understand why are you making one. Is this system supposed to limit number of times you are using your magic in one encounter? Is it supposed to limit use of magic over a dungeon raid? Is it supposed to limit how powerful is a single casting?

By the way, while aesthetically problem with Shugenja compared to everyone is that "they are learning Earthquakes, while you are learning`how to stepdance" (the genre difference gap), power-wise high level spells are usually not really worth the time - majority of Shugenja's power is usage of Mastery Rank 1 and 2 Spells.

On another message, I said a way to limit the powerful spells from being cast freely. I think this should go through "Importune Kami". Why? Because "Importune Kami" was a mechanics that was asking a kami to cast a powerful spell but there was a deal done between the kami and the shugenja. This could come back instead of the "Learning Earthquake spell". And if the Shugenja doesn't respect his deal, the next time he'll importune, the kami may simply ignore him. I feel this could be very interesting for a high power game.

The current system is also very funny when you mess with the player's mind a little bit. I remember when I had a Shugenja that simply had damage spells and liked to ditch out his damage to show off his power. I've decided to have a session with two combat in it almost one after the other, before he could rest and regain his spells. Like I've predicted, he ditched out all his spells in the first fight, which, by the way, was the easy fight. The second fight, he had no spells and the enemy was way more stronger. It was really funny to see because he could simply do nothing but watch the other players having some fun, for change. The next fight, he kept some spells in case there's something else after but there was nothing. He was a little mad at me for doing this. I would suggest to bring this kind of stuffs in a game once in a while, then you'll see your Shugenja playing more wisely afterward.

Well, I just wanted to show that changing the "magical currency" from Spellslots to Spiritpoints does not necessarily solve the issue.

Of course it is a pretty simple Spiritpoint-System, because I'm not good with statistics or probabilities and I made it up really quick. So there may be a way to do it better.

And I don't really have a problem with the Shugenja in my playing groups and neither my Kitsu nor my Agasha Shugenja have offensive spells. Both of them are focused around supporting and healing the group. Only my Kuni will one day have some offensive spells, because KUNI (I play her with the optional Rank 0 rules and just got a sensei).

But maybe I just found the issue: creating a bunch of characters vs creating a group of characters.

Everytime I create a character I ask the other players: "What are you guys gonna play?" And then we discuss which player wants to take on which role. Then everybody thinks about how his/her character is able to support the other characters, how they could work together and what their fields of expertise are. And guess what? It works out pretty good, we always have a group of characters who round out the edges of the others.

We seldom get characters where one could steal the spotlight of the other characters.

But I like your idea, Crawd.

Do you mean it like: Cast commune-> then propose the bargain, therefore speak to the kami for 25min for a Rank5 firespell (roll Spellcasting(Importune)/Fire against TN 40) -> then cast "Light of the sun" after a successful spellcasting roll against TN 40.

Well, that won't work for spell during a fight, except the rules for importuning would change.

But I like your idea, Crawd.

Do you mean it like: Cast commune-> then propose the bargain, therefore speak to the kami for 25min for a Rank5 firespell (roll Spellcasting(Importune)/Fire against TN 40) -> then cast "Light of the sun" after a successful spellcasting roll against TN 40.

Well, that won't work for spell during a fight, except the rules for importuning would change.

Yeah, something like that. Of course that would require some changes for importuning but still, if a Shugenja want to create a firestorm to decimate an approching army, he has the 25 minutes he requires for importuning, but this would also mean that he'll have something to do after to thank the kami.

Yeah, for largescale stuff like mass battle or preventing mass battle it still works. I meant skirmishes, since most of the fights are skirmishes...at least in my plaing groups.

WHW nails it. And anytime you turn a rigid system such as the spell slot one, to a more freeform like "spirit points", you don't get more control over the power level, but quite the opposite... because you're abandoning a rigid system in favor of a malleable one.

Could it eventually be made to work? Well, nothing is impossible... but the amount of work would simply not be worth it. There are easier, cleaner and more elegant ways of approaching situations such as the shugenja power level... and most of them involve encouraging the fluff and the themes that are part of what it means to be a shugenja. It can also be like in Crawd's example, showing that the RPG isn't a computer game where you hit a button and instantly rest for 8h to recover your spells. In short, if a GM/Storyteller/Narrator fulfills his role, then many of the problems just go away.

By the way, while aesthetically problem with Shugenja compared to everyone is that "they are learning Earthquakes, while you are learning`how to stepdance" (the genre difference gap), power-wise high level spells are usually not really worth the time - majority of Shugenja's power is usage of Mastery Rank 1 and 2 Spells.

Truth. The amount of work a single casting of Reversal of Fortunes can put in is nothing short of sickening...

Thing is, primary part of Shugenja identity is "I am the priest. I am the person who is favored by the spirits and can talk with them. My DUTY to the Empire is making sure that spirits are in favor of our people, and to worship them and teach others about them. I listen, I guide."

Shooting fire is a side benefit. You *could* reinvent the whole role and concept of Shugenja, but...that reminds me of the whole "why retcon the setting" arguments. Shugenja are the keepers of celestial order. They primary function is the religious one. To ditch it is literally saying "I just want to shoot fire at people, I don't care about rest".

Also, please, why are you forcing a really false dichotomy of War Priests / Support priests? It isn't a Thing here. Shugenja is a Shugenja. No one here asks for making them unable to fire fireballs ever or to DECIDE! FIREBALLS OR HEALS?!; both are flavors of elemental kami that fit the setting. No one is saying that you should be unable to create a follower of Bishamon who finds religious ecstasy in battle. Like, really, no reason to create a boogeyman who wants to take away fireballs.

What people are in general saying isn't "Stop Fireballs", they are saying "Stop Fireballs that are here on expense of other Shugenja-stuff", and "give space to other angles of shugenja TOO, instead of focusing ONLY on fireballs". Because currently, fireballgenja is like that rude fellow who takes 3 seats on the bus when he can fit in one, and 2 people are forced to stand because he won't move an inch.

That pretty much sums it up, yes.

At least from me, it's not "stop fireballs", it's "fireball, magic darts, healing, blessing, curse, conjure a buffet, whatever -- shugenja aren't 'mages' who seize power and bend it to their will, they're 'priests' who have a relationship with worlds beyond their own and implore the spirits to take action."

I see this a lot in various discussions about shugenja over the years, but I don't see how they differ.

I assume you (like most it seems) regard the current shugenja mechanics to more reflect this idea of, "mage who seizes power and bends it to their will."

That's fine if you feel that way.

However if you do feel that way and would prefer the mechanics that portray "priests who implore the spirits to take action," how does that shugenja play, mechanically speaking?

How does the spell casting work?

What do the spell effects look like?

What kind of spells are actually available for a shugenja player to learn?

How would you do it differently?

(And I'm not trying to pick on you, Max! This is really a thought for anyone who wants to answer.)

Well, that won't work for spell during a fight, except the rules for importuning would change.

I have no problem with this.

If you want to be good in a fight, buy fighting skills