And that is only your opinion.

The same can be (and has been) said about literally everything you've said on this issue. So?

I for my part see the Isawa family in line with their founder

Isawa innovated, changed, and embraced notjust new spells but new ways of performing magic. He adjusted to an entirely new theory on how to do things. The Isawa family , by contrast, are on average as open to change as the rules of chess.

Also how to color the action you are doing is totaly up to you and has no need to put down in rules. What is needed to put down is the role of the Shugenja and the spells he is able to utilize.

Describing how and why someone does their magic is integral to a setting.

Also the defensive & offensive caster is not a D&D paradigim it is a way to classify options you have for your build when you are planning a new Roleplaying game.

You, not anyone else, are the one who brought up "wizard = offense, priest =support." No one else had made that contention. No one else demanded that their "priestly" shugenja become more support casters, because no one else sees a need to inject a false dichotomy. Your worry that shugenja would become incapable of frontline spellslinging is clearly and plainly derived from the D&D-style paradigm(a paradigm even D&D has long since gotten away from)

Cause in the end you want different roles in you game and therefore have to plan which things could be suited for which role etc or you end up with the problem we have now where the Shugenja is

better in every thing a player wants to do cause no one cared about the specific role and limitations they should get.

And these problems... well.

1. They're present any time some characters can use magic and others cannot. Whether I'm playing KOTOR and finding my non-Jedi companions increasingly worthless, or whether I'm standing around with my AD&D 2nd Edition Rogue cooling his heels because the party wizard can cast spells that emulate literally everything my guy is capable of, magic breaks things. Shugenja have a definied role in the setting. Getting them to fill that rolein the game is what this whole side tangent is about.

2. Different roles are a function of setting as much as mechanics. The culture of the setting is of vital importance here- and it what makes some of us who are invested in the setting want our shugenja to be priests, rather than magical technicians.

So first to the family. Most Isawas I know frm the stories and Wiki are not very priestly and I will not go for the tons of them who thought playing with Maho is a good Idea. When I look at the Isawa we have people like Kioso which had a very active drive for battle and offensive use of their magic. We have the 4 elemental guards which are filled of Isawa Shugenja which actively want to use Magic as tool to win wars. Bestexample is the Firestorm Legion which is using spells whcih inflict fear and terror. Don´t forget we are speaking about the family which praticed a Shugenja duel to Death to evaluate people for higher positions.

So while I buy that some parts of the Isawa are priestly the whole family surely is not. Yes they are the clan who has the most knowlegde about the supernatural tradtions but not all see them in the same way and many Isawa tend to see the invocations of the Kami more as tools and as prayers.

Than for the Magic decption. Yes the question of why someone is having the ability to cast magic is important and should be answered by the setting aswell as the general Idea of how he casts it but what he will do exactly is up to the player.

Lets take the scroll example. A Shugenja needs a scroll to cast a spell. So you can describe it either as Isawa Bob takes out his scroll and utters a few words while a fireball is forming itself in his hand which he than hurls at the enemy.

But you aslo can

go for Isawa Rod concentrates while his eyes become fire red and he speaks in word most people can´t understand and to things that nobody but him can see. (Taking out a scroll and begin casting Fir from Within). While speaking a fireball is forming in his hand and than suddenly the frieball starts moving faster and faster towards the enemies while still growing in size until it hits them.

So while the first example only has the mechanical ways of the scroll in it. The second should show that the fact that you have a scroll is not something that you can´t color more exciting a long as you somehow mention what mechanic you are using.

Now for the priest v.s Wizard thing.

Yes I brought this up. No Iam not influecned by D&D here (Cause I actually never played D&D until the 5th edition came out). Iam influenced by my exp that told me that in most RPgs there are different caster rolls. Ulitily, Offense, Defense, Support. In L5r these rolls are also there but not very well definded which leads to the problemt hat most L5r casters can do everything at once and have not the problem of when I go for defense I can´t go for offense. Thats the reason why I went for the Priest vs. Wizard cause these 2 classes most of the time can defined very easly. Cause the reason is when looking at the Wizard people expect the fireball hurling ranged fighther in contrast to the priest which is more the guy who is granting blessings and aiding people when they need him.

Also while I brought it up there is nothing wrong at the point that the Wizard and Priest are two guidelines for 2 types, in particular the offensive and supporting magic user, of casters in the roleplaying theory.

For the Roles.

1. Can the Mage make you useless? Yes he certainly can. Is hedoing it at every ocasion? Certainly not.(If the player does alk to him). Only cause other also can do what you can do or cna do it better is not a reaon to get upset cause it does not make your character worseless is just says ok if you are not here I still can do the role. In the end the problem you are decirbing is one which can solved very easy with talking to your players. Before going into the game just get together and talk about the roles you want to fill cause most of the time this resolves the Wizard issue cause people than can adjust their builds and characters. Which should result in the avoiudance of the I can do this better than you problem.

2. Different roles

The most important thing is how they work. So the mechnics should come first cause they are the things you have to deal with when you actually play the game. When you definded the mechanics you can look how to paint and color them and how to fit them into the setting but letting the setting shape the mechnics is not a good idea cause most of the time the mechanics which are resulting out of this way are terrible bad.

Also just as side note. I really like the setting but Iam not using it as excuse for terrible and badmechanics cause actually the L5r rules are not that geat to be honest.

At the very least, if some groups of shugenja are more "priestly" and some are more "technical", there should be a lot more explicit tension between those groups in the setting.

Oh I would love to see this. I actually like this kind of philosophical tension between groups and think this could be a cool addtion to the setting.

Kinzen

#2 -- If the flavor of their magic involves interacting with spirits, why is there no actual interaction there? Right now, they might as well be using their prayers to mix napalm as to persuade the fire kami to burn something for them. Yeah, yeah -- nobody wants a system where their spells might not work because they haven't been maintaining good relations with the spirits. But it would do a lot to make them feel less like D&D wizards. At least a D&D cleric can lose their cleric abilities if they lose the favor of their god. I would believe much more in the shugenja-y-ness of shugenja if I felt like the entities they relied upon were actual entities, rather than automata that do exactly as commanded.

I would more look into the how to aquire the knowlegde of the spell direction for the comunication with the Spirits. I mean each Shugenja actually has to learn the invocations and prayers he is going to use. So why not let them make journeys to get new one. Let them comune with the spirits of the different places and temples. This allready would go for a asian priestly approach.

Also I don´t think it would be a good Idea to let people loose their poers for not folloing route x. This wa a mechanic which was to exploitable and very anoying if someone tried to punish you with it.

Kami lacking free will is really clumsy explanation of asian idea that non humans - especially the immortal ones - are forever bound to do their function. Sword spirit will never escape his reason to exist, which is to cut things. Fire spirit will never be able to decide that no, he won't burn stuff. They all are bound by their duties to natural order and their innate function. Only humans are free to do whatever they want, and even they are given "budget of fate" to spend. Notice that humans, by virtue of having free will, can influence stuff that has no free will. So while fire spirit may never decide on his own to stop burning things, your human can trick him into stopping burning. And so on.

So basically, what spellcasting section wanted to say, is that basic elemental kami are so simple in their function-duty, that it's easy to put them in situations where they are going to always do the exact same thing. If you ask a fire spirit "please, burn this kamipucker", Fire spirit will agree, because it's in his nature to burn things. It's *still* asking, praying, and utilizing natural forces of the world, guiding them to do what you want, not control them. Controling (and thus, classical wizardy) is bad, because trying to control, bend, instead of guide is to go against the natural order of things, and that's a no-no in Rokugan.

There is nothing wrong about some Isawa going to war. Priest does not have to not-fight. Difference is that a Priest is going to ask Fire spirits to burn his foes and cause terror of firestorm, while a wizard is going to bend impersonal forces of universe to his will and become a goddamn firethrower.

Furthermore - Kami worship is a religion, but it's also a science. Still, it's a respectful science. Shugenja *are* experimenting, they *are* writing down theses on how fire spirits work, but it's still a religion first and foremost.

As for non-blessing spells; I've said it multiple times, but it's because in card game, you have kamiton of spells. Basically, in CCG, you had a special card type - Spell Cards. These Spell Cards had a cool name, and special magical effect you could use. In order to use Spell Card, you needed to attach it to some Shugenja. And thus, was born idea of magical scrolls to represent CCG mechanic of "Shugenja having spell attached", and literal spellmine was found, because tons of RPG spells are literally "let's look at library of CCG spells, and copy them into the RPG game".

As you might imagine, CCG was focused on clan-against-clan mass warfare, so spells were accordingly magical artillery-ish.

As for blessing being boring - it's about as boring as any other duty that goes perfectly . If Rokugan's spirit world wasn't so barren and antagonistic, you could have whole adventures out of it; for example, when your shugenja is trying to bless a crop, local spirits refuse to communicate and throw a tantrum. Why? Time to investigate, find out that some major local spirit is mad because best dancer in the village died, and demands to see more dancing.

So you ask your party who has most ranks in Perform Dance, and when everyone say "0", you ask who has biggest Agility, and your party Bushi suddenly looks pale .

You don't even have to make Shugenja only way to communicate with the spirit world, but it should be the easiest and quickest. (Example - Shugenja could do religious stuff with only 1 in theology, for everyone else, it's Mastery Ability )

By the way, according to 4th edition, there *is* one group of wizard shugenja - Soshi. Apparently, they see Kami as inhuman, alien functions of the world, and instead of worshiping them, they learn how to exploit them like tools. I don't remember *where* it was; probably in one of Soshi Family descriptions.

The most important thing is how they work. So the mechnics should come first cause they are the things you have to deal with when you actually play the game. When you definded the mechanics you can look how to paint and color them and how to fit them into the setting but letting the setting shape the mechnics is not a good idea cause most of the time the mechanics which are resulting out of this way are terrible bad.

As long as you know what you are doing, you definitely can write mechanics for the specific setting. In fact, in order to write great mechanics, you *need* to know what you are writing for. Problem is that often mechanical design is relegated as secondary or non important, which leads to "eh, looks like a good idea, let's leave it at this". There is a really false and annoying dichotomy saying that you either have good setting, or good mechanics; there is literally nothing stopping you from having both be good and polished (other than, I guess, handing mechanics to someone who can make good mechanics, and handing setting to someone who can make good setting? way too often people try to combine both in one "writer")

This whole "Priest VS Wizard" Shugenja shows good roleplayers from bad roleplayers. Sorry for pointing that out, but I really think that way. Of course, their's no blessing mechanics, of course, there's no mariage mechanics, because it's pointless to add a mechanic for something like this. I've said it a couple of time, a Shugenja is a Shugenja, no matter the build you pick, it's still a Shugenja. It has his own duty and responsabilities. If someone simply plays the Shugenja ignoring its duty and responsabilities, that's fine, but I really hope that the storyteller will do something to point out this a way or another. I know that I would do something in my game, such as the kami ignoring his prayers. Of course, a powerful Shugenja could start to ignore his duty, because he has students with him and ask them to do his chores, but this means that he still do his duty and responsabilities.

Let's leave the mechanics for a second, because everyone agrees that the Shugenja mechanics and setting don't walk very well together. Let's focus on the setting, because this is where the real image of the Shugenja is. I don't have the books at hand right now so I'll quote the wiki, which is very well done and stays very close to the setting ( http://l5r.wikia.com/wiki/Shugenja ):

Shugenja were the priests and scribes of Rokugan , ^[1] as well as the envoys of the fortunes and kami and the keepers of their clans' secrets. ^[2]

They were able to create powerful spells by offering prayers which were written upon scrolls called ofuda . ^[

Duty as priests Edit

The shugenja were diviners who could communicate with the gods, in the Rokugani pantheon of the Kami no michi . They knew the rites of purification (performed at birth and at death) and the secrets of dispelling evil spirits. ^[3]

Lifestyle Edit

A shugenja's life was usually quite solitary, as great meditation and study was always required, and most shugenja would spend their lives in temples and shrines . Those who wandered Rokugan were usually doing so to fulfill a specific command of their daimyo . Like all samurai , it was extremely rare for a shugenja to live among the lower castes.

I've quoted the most important parts of it. I don't see any "Wizard" mentality in this. Even the Maho-Tsukai has to pay tributes to be able to cast their Maho spells, which is the blood sacrifice they have to do in exchange, in addition to their prayer to Fu Leng.

Of course, we can play RPG as we please and focus on what brings the most fun. My primary focus is the roleplay. I've played a lot of games where we barely roll any dice and it was plenty of fun. I know that some people are the opposite, which focus the most roll as possible and get big numbers. That's not my style, but that's ok, the way L5R is built, it brings something to both of these focus. This is my last message on this "Priest Vs Wizard" thingy because I feel like I've made my point and didn't see any fact that shows me otherwise, specially on the setting point of view. The only point I see is only the lack of mechanics, which could only be done with Theology Skill, but that's how I would deal with something like this.

Now for the priest v.s Wizard thing.

Yes I brought this up. No Iam not influecned by D&D here (Cause I actually never played D&D until the 5th edition came out). Iam influenced by my exp that told me that in most RPgs there are different caster rolls. Ulitily, Offense, Defense, Support. In L5r these rolls are also there but not very well definded which leads to the problemt hat most L5r casters can do everything at once and have not the problem of when I go for defense I can´t go for offense. Thats the reason why I went for the Priest vs. Wizard cause these 2 classes most of the time can defined very easly. Cause the reason is when looking at the Wizard people expect the fireball hurling ranged fighther in contrast to the priest which is more the guy who is granting blessings and aiding people when they need him.

Also while I brought it up there is nothing wrong at the point that the Wizard and Priest are two guidelines for 2 types, in particular the offensive and supporting magic user, of casters in the roleplaying theory.

Here's the thing -- you didn't play D&D. The people who wrote the systems and designed the worlds for those other games that you have played? Most of them did play D&D at some point.

No one is saying that you got the idea that wizard = cannon, priest = medic, or the idea of distinctly split caster roles, from playing D&D. But the games that you did get the idea from, did get that idea largely from D&D.

That's why it's referred to as a "D&Dism".

~~~~

My concern with the mechanics of the shugenja not matching up isn't about blessings and funerals and weddings, it's not about their role in Rokugani society. That can be handled largely though play, although the books could stand to delve into it a little more.

My concern is that the mechanics don't match the way that shugenja invoke their magic. Mechanically, it feels just like generic POWS.

To take this out more broadly, imagine an RPG setting in which there are three distinct ways of invoking supernatural effects (that is, magic) -- calling on spirits, a connection to the divine energy of the gods, or tapping into the raw primordial "khaos" of the universe. The RPG's spellcasting mechanics should, I think, provide something of a different feel for each of the three.

Here's the thing -- you didn't play D&D. The people who wrote the systems and designed the worlds for those other games that you have played? Most of them did play D&D at some point.

No one is saying that you got the idea that wizard = cannon, priest = medic, or the idea of distinctly split caster roles, from playing D&D. But the games that you did get the idea from, did get that idea largely from D&D.

That's why it's referred to as a "D&Dism".

You should not assume things you can´t know. Yes some of the games I have played might have drawn from D&D but not all. For example L5R, the game we dicussing or Warhammer Fantasy, did not. Also various Japan RPGs be it pen and paper or

Video Games like Final Fantasy and the like did not. Also DSA never has drawn from D&D cause it was the German answer to the game.

The role understanding I got came from many sources whcih are not only influenced by D&D but not only by D&D and therefore I think youz shoudl not reduce it to D&D.

In addtion to that clear definded roles are nothing bad and discarding them just cause it was something D&D did is nothing I will suport cause it is not a good Idea.

Also please note that I speak from caster types and the Priest and Wizard are just examples of them we also easily could call them Black and White Mage and go along with the spells these 2 types use.

Cause it will be the same there the white mage has some spells which deal dmg to the opponent but is mostly centered arround healing and supporting while the black mage is the one with the dmg spells and centered arround these

lines of play.

The thing is that when people go for the the Shugenja need to become more priest like I go and look for mechnics which could emphasise this because in the end the mechanics are the engine of the game. Therefore when doing this I come to the

blessing heavy part where you act more like a priest and do things liek marriages, blessing the fields and aiding other people but than I also can see that this can be very boring for people to play and therefore I go and say I want both not only one thing.

so behind the I want both Priest and Wizards in Rokugan argument is that I want both mechnics one more oriented to the priest corner, which deals with the form of blessings and co, and a second one which is more using the active casting and fire ball

slinging at will corner.

So yes while there are priests with go to war these would be war/battle priests and they behave entiely different than normal priests. Therefore when soemone says he wants that the Shugenja act more priestly I don´t go for the Battle Pirest ( LIke an Ulric Priest in Warhammer fantasy who honors his god with a 2hand Hammer) but more for the normal Priest who goes for the blessing and assiting of others.

So in the end the thing I want is to keep both flavors that of the normal priest who is mainly helping people and doing blessings and that of the War Priest who is slinging fireballs of death at the enemies and be able to compete with a bushi in the dmg output.

Thing is, primary part of Shugenja identity is "I am the priest. I am the person who is favored by the spirits and can talk with them. My DUTY to the Empire is making sure that spirits are in favor of our people, and to worship them and teach others about them. I listen, I guide."

Shooting fire is a side benefit. You *could* reinvent the whole role and concept of Shugenja, but...that reminds me of the whole "why retcon the setting" arguments. Shugenja are the keepers of celestial order. They primary function is the religious one. To ditch it is literally saying "I just want to shoot fire at people, I don't care about rest".

Also, please, why are you forcing a really false dichotomy of War Priests / Support priests? It isn't a Thing here. Shugenja is a Shugenja. Noone here asks for making them unable to fire fireballs ever or to DECIDE! FIREBALLS OR HEALS?!; both are flavors of elemental kami that fit the setting. No one is saying that you should be unable to create a follower of Bishamon who finds religious ecstasy in battle. Like, really, no reason to create a boogeyman who wants to take away fireballs.

What people are in general saying isn't "Stop Fireballs", they are saying "Stop Fireballs that are here on expense of other Shugenja-stuff", and "give space to other angles of shugenja TOO, instead of focusing ONLY on fireballs". Because currently, fireballgenja is like that rude fellow who takes 3 seats on the bus when he can fit in one, and 2 people are forced to stand because he won't move an inch.

Also - could we stop with coning, introducing, invoking random token terms like D&Disms, and other TVTropes-style talk? It usually serves nothing and brings disagreements, obscures what is said instead of making it more clear, and often introduces certain...judgemental tone. It would be much more productive and less conflict-generating to just say what we are talking about, instead of using arcane shorthands and terms .

Also, please, why are you forcing a really false dichotomy of War Priests / Support priests? It isn't a Thing here. Shugenja is a Shugenja. Noone here asks for making them unable to fire fireballs ever or to DECIDE! FIREBALLS OR HEALS?!; both are flavors of elemental kami that fit the setting. No one is saying that you should be unable to create a follower of Bishamon who finds religious ecstasy in battle. Like, really, no reason to create a boogeyman who wants to take away fireballs.

Cause this whatr comes with the sentance I want the priests more priestly. Iam not going to cherrypick the priest stuff I want but go for the complete thing asay ok if you want them more like asian priests lets look into Shinto and how they behave there and than apply it to the game.

What people are in general saying isn't "Stop Fireballs", they are saying "Stop Fireballs that are here on expense of other Shugenja-stuff", and "give space to other angles of shugenja TOO, instead of focusing ONLY on fireballs". Because currently, fireballgenja is like that rude fellow who takes 3 seats on the bus when he can fit in one, and 2 people are forced to stand because he won't move an inch.

Actually I don´t see this. What I see is that the Shugenja can do all things better than others. Therefore it is my attention to look that you either can do one thing or another bot not both at the same time. This is why I go for the role modell so I can adjust the Shugenjas power without outrightg nerving the spells and powers he has.

Thing is, primary part of Shugenja identity is "I am the priest. I am the person who is favored by the spirits and can talk with them. My DUTY to the Empire is making sure that spirits are in favor of our people, and to worship them and teach others about them. I listen, I guide."

This might be one part of the Identety but it is not the only one. Actually when I look at the Shugenja I see more than just this part. I actuall can see Shugenja who are driven by this but I also can see Shugenja who are interpreting the protction of their people in a more active way ( as many fire Shugenja do) and I also can see that there are Shugenja who are not as devote as others are and look with a more pragmatic view to the topic of the Kami. Therefore limiting the Shugenja only to the serving priest type which you describe is nothing I would do. Also I don´t want a mechnic which is resembling this way cause this description cause this would mean we get in the danger zone of the D&D Priest who looses all his powers when getting into problems with his daily screlude and this is a very abd mechanic.

Allso please understand that when talking about a new world you automaticly talk about the mechanics so the wish to make the shugenjas more priestly is actually a wish to adjust the mechanics in this way, Cause without them there is no reason to

behave like X or Y cause you behavior will not have consequences.

Which is why I keep fielding the role models cause I think a better definded roll for the Shungejas of Clan x is better in terms of mechanics and the resulting feeling inside of the setting than a general approach like we have it now without clear mechanics. Cause the current siuation only results in a Shugenja can do all things at once build which is even to cheesy for me.

Thing is, primary part of Shugenja identity is "I am the priest. I am the person who is favored by the spirits and can talk with them. My DUTY to the Empire is making sure that spirits are in favor of our people, and to worship them and teach others about them. I listen, I guide."

Shooting fire is a side benefit. You *could* reinvent the whole role and concept of Shugenja, but...that reminds me of the whole "why retcon the setting" arguments. Shugenja are the keepers of celestial order. They primary function is the religious one. To ditch it is literally saying "I just want to shoot fire at people, I don't care about rest".

Also, please, why are you forcing a really false dichotomy of War Priests / Support priests? It isn't a Thing here. Shugenja is a Shugenja. No one here asks for making them unable to fire fireballs ever or to DECIDE! FIREBALLS OR HEALS?!; both are flavors of elemental kami that fit the setting. No one is saying that you should be unable to create a follower of Bishamon who finds religious ecstasy in battle. Like, really, no reason to create a boogeyman who wants to take away fireballs.

What people are in general saying isn't "Stop Fireballs", they are saying "Stop Fireballs that are here on expense of other Shugenja-stuff", and "give space to other angles of shugenja TOO, instead of focusing ONLY on fireballs". Because currently, fireballgenja is like that rude fellow who takes 3 seats on the bus when he can fit in one, and 2 people are forced to stand because he won't move an inch.

That pretty much sums it up, yes.

At least from me, it's not "stop fireballs", it's "fireball, magic darts, healing, blessing, curse, conjure a buffet, whatever -- shugenja aren't 'mages' who seize power and bend it to their will, they're 'priests' who have a relationship with worlds beyond their own and implore the spirits to take action."

Also - could we stop with coning, introducing, invoking random token terms like D&Disms, and other TVTropes-style talk? It usually serves nothing and brings disagreements, obscures what is said instead of making it more clear, and often introduces certain...judgemental tone. It would be much more productive and less conflict-generating to just say what we are talking about, instead of using arcane shorthands and terms .

"D&Dism" is a not-uncommon term in the fantasy writing/fan communities, and in the RPG design community, going back to the hoary days of Usenet, so I guess it just slips into my posts without thought of how it might be taken by those unfamiliar with it.

My intent is not to be judgemental -- it is to say "PLEASE question that presumed dichotomy of roles linking the type of magic that's cast with the type of caster or the origin of their powers".

And I think it's that presumed dichotomy of casting roles / magic cast that keeps leading us back to people saying "don't take combat magic away from shugenja", when that's not really the change in how shugenja play that's being asked for (for the most part).

The most important thing is how they work. So the mechnics should come first cause they are the things you have to deal with when you actually play the game. When you definded the mechanics you can look how to paint and color them and how to fit them into the setting but letting the setting shape the mechnics is not a good idea cause most of the time the mechanics which are resulting out of this way are terrible bad.

Uh, the setting had better come first at least a little , or you have no idea what mechanics are appropriate or not. It would be hilariously bad design to come up with mechanics for a Rokugani shugenja to raise zombies, even if the numbers crunch well. Or, to use our current situation: even if the spell mechanics were well-balanced compared to bushi, I'd still be complaining that there's an awful lot of attention paid to shugenja nuking the field, in a world where supposedly they're the ones who understand the spiritual dimension of life better than anybody else. We've gotten a lot of mechanics with insufficient attention to setting.

As for blessing being boring - it's about as boring as any other duty that goes perfectly . If Rokugan's spirit world wasn't so barren and antagonistic, you could have whole adventures out of it; for example, when your shugenja is trying to bless a crop, local spirits refuse to communicate and throw a tantrum. Why? Time to investigate, find out that some major local spirit is mad because best dancer in the village died, and demands to see more dancing.

So you ask your party who has most ranks in Perform Dance, and when everyone say "0", you ask who has biggest Agility, and your party Bushi suddenly looks pale .

Well, the boring part comes in where you say, why do we really care about these crops? Agriculture is not, for most players, the stuff of which an exciting campaign is made. (Which isn't to say I couldn't come up with plots where that's important. Just that most of the time, your players are going to want something a little shinier to deal with.)

But I agree with your general point that changing the approach to shugenja would enrich the spirit-world side of the setting a great deal. Don't give me a spell that cures disease; give me mechanics that say shugenja diagnose disease by weighing the balance of the sufferer's Elements and then attempt to gain the favor of the appropriate Dragon to strengthen the patient where they're weak. It's why I liked the sections of the Elemental series that talked about what imbalances look like: it gave me a way to talk about personality and health that wasn't modern Western psychology and germ theory.

This whole "Priest VS Wizard" Shugenja shows good roleplayers from bad roleplayers.

When the mechanics provide little to no support for your roleplay, it can be hard to hold onto it. Playing a pacifistic Asahina who would never want to go into battle? Your spell list shrinks dramatically. Want to be a shugenja whose entire purpose in life is to better understand and interact with the spirit realms? Buy up a skill and call it a day, because virtually the only spells that involve you interacting with spirits are about banishing them. Also, most of those spirits want to kill you.

The current situation would be like saying, Rokugan is a society full of warriors, who fight many battles. Oh, but most of the mechanics for bushi are about talking to people and studying things. That can be an interesting character to play, and certainly the poet-scholar-warrior is a meaningful archetype . . . but for a group whose raison d'etre is supposed to be killing things, the game sure doesn't give you a lot of support for doing that. (In the hypothetical scenario, not in the actual system we have.) In fact, the current arrangement gives shugenja virtually no support for being good at religious/spiritual matters that is not equally available to bushi, courtiers, artisans, and ninja -- while giving them the tools to out-bushi the bushi, when it comes to killing things. I'm fine with shugenja continuing to be able to kill things. I'd just like to see that not be their primary use, and more exploration of what being a religious leader means in a world where you can interact very concretely with spirits.

Magical Medicine is actually very bad and weak. While it's easy to go into "Heal kamiton of Wounds", first and only spell to remove diseases is Water Rank 6 (!).

And yes, one of things that really would help people to drop their western perception, would be to have a nice article about how bacterias and stuff aren't really important, but elemental composition of your body is , and that body reflects spirit reflects body, being two sides of the same coin.

As for agriculture not being shiny enough - well, most of samurai duties are not really very shiny or interesting when they go "as expected" . Kind of like how basic duty of Magistrates is Tax Collection, which is fairly boring, at least until you meet abnormal situation and discover that holy ninjas, the whole village disappeared and their lord tried to cover that up by pulling out rice of nowhere to pay in their place while he replaced them?! INVESTIGATE! INVESTIGATE! [in Dalek's voice ]

In general, you could prepare *tons* of adventure hooks by simply exploiting base duties of Shugenja; after all, there is potentially a lot you could notice while performing basic blessings and stuff.

Again, I really would love to have a situation where a Bushi, a Courtier, and a Shugenja all look at a soon-to-be-married guy, and they all know that he is a bloodthirsty killer, but

a) Bushi knows it simply by observing the another; way he moves, way he looks, way he breathes, they all tell you that he faced death and dealt it, and did it with pleasure; everything is hidden in a movement of the wrist. Still, it's our duty to defend him unto death.

b) Courtier knows it, because she can see ruthless fire in his eyes, and she has heard...things...about him from her sources, there is a lot of gossip, and the way he talks, how he smiles at you like you are nothing more than prey! Still, it was our duty to find him a good wife.

c) Shugenja knows it, because spirits around him are unsettled, they are afraid and don't like his presence; a monster among men, still, it's our duty to make sure these spirits will help him to be reborn as a husband, and cleanse him from his sins...and to tell him that his lifestyle might have negative impact on his marriage, due to stirring the spirits.

By the way, I can totally see a very mad person whose marriage failed finding shugenja who was blessing it and accusing him of doing it with ill will and setting them up to fail .

For your hypothetical scenario - that's where lethalithy higher than low leads, because physical solutions become too risky for players to take, and thus, it's better to avoid them unless backed in the corner and always solve things dyplomatically. This is kinda how Wick wanted people to play first edition, too, but I feel that he always sees players getting into combat as failure on their side that deserves a punishment. Which is actively against the genre of the game, because in samurai stories, there is a *lot* of place for deeds, not words, and there is a lot of justification to characters considering drawing steel the most appropriate response to the problem. Again, playing like this in 1st Edition would get you killed quite quickly, not due to GM malice, but due to how combat system was designed; then again, according to a story, Wick while designing a combat system, asked himself a question - "how many sword cuts can samurai perform in amount of seconds equal to one combat round?", and then traveled the world to..., no, seriously, he asked his martial arts consultant "how many times can trained kendoka cut you in 3 seconds with real sword", and got an answer of "irrelevant, he cuts you once and that's all he needs", which apparently gave him an epiphany of "yeah, samurai should be able to kill each other in one cut, so I'll make that one cut very powerful!"

I find this very...not fitting way of modeling game mechanics; because first, game mechanics should follow fiction and genre we are trying to play in, and two, there are other ways of capturing aesthetics of "first cut to connect is the last cut"; easiest to grasp is of course saying that as long as character has some form of HP, they aren't cut at all, and losing them represents losing concentration, becoming tired, and generally losing your rythm to the point where opponent can catch you off guard and finish off with last strike.

Knowing what you want to achieve is crucial, because this way, you can model your mechanics to both be fun and represent the thing you want to invoke. And following reality to the letter is often neither fun, and not a very good representation at the end of the day either.

It's going to take me days to get INVESTIGATE! IN-VEST-I-GATE! out of my head now. Thanks.

My wish for a new edition of L5R is that the Shosuro Actors get an artistic advanced school, as well as the Shiba Artisans.

Regarding the idea of a grid-based battle: I want to play L5R not D&D. If I want a grid based battle I play D&D or similiar systems. If I need a grid for combat, for what ever reason, I can always say one square is 5ft. and everyone can look up the movement-rules with water*X for free, simple or complex action. I don't want and don't need a grid-based battle.

And regadring that "Shugenja are like (D&D-)wizards" nonsense (yes IMHO it is nonsense):

There are following ways I encountered regarding limiting the spelluses:

Spellslots (D&D 5th, L5R)
Mana/ Magicpoints/ Zeon (Fantasy Age, Anima:Beyond Fantasy)
Sideeffect-Table (Warhammer 40K and Warhammer Fantasy)
Defined Uses like at-will, daily, once per battle (D&D 4th, 13th Age)

So, the Sideeffect-Variant wouldn't fit L5R since the kami are willing to do what the Shugenja wants them to do and magic isn't a chaotic power in Rokugan.

"Everyone" is whining about the Spellslots and the defined uses isn't really that different. Same goes for the mana/MP/ Zeon-Variant.

So how do you want to limit the uses of spells for the Shugenja? Has anyone thought about this? Can anyone propose a different way?

And again I can only quote the Imperial Archives regarding "Shugenja not priestly enough":

The power and role of “spells” is more obvious, direct, and practical than that of rituals, but even so, no shugenja considers his prayers lightly. To simply call upon the kami every time there is a minor problem or inconvenience is to disrespect their role in the Celestial Wheel. Indeed, this is one of the reasons why shugenja are used sparingly on the battlefield, lest they anger the spirits by abusing their powers. (In game terms, it is also part of the reason why there is a limit on how many spells a shugenja can cast in a day.) It takes both a tremendous effort of will and
tremendous religious understanding to properly summon forth the kami and to shape them to a desired result.
Doing so haphazardly or without reverence may draw the wrath of the supernatural realms, manifesting in anything from a brief magical backlash to a serious decline in the shugenja’s ability to cast spells.

And as far as I remember there are some blessing-spells in one of the elements books (BoA p187: Funeral Rites).

Regarding the idea to make earth reactive and more deffensive: one really big Problem: KUNI

The Kuni-Shugenja NEED the jade-spells. Jade-Spells are Earth-Spells. The Kuni are driven with purging the Taint from the face of the earth. They are the first to burn down a whole village if there are rumors that the village might be tainted. They would invent jade-gloves and handshakes just to be sure that the person they speak with is not tainted, regardless if the person is an Eta or a Samurai. They are deffinitly not reactive.

@Shosuro: That quoted part is nice and all, but where is the RULE for enforcing this? Placing an RP requirement on a mechanical superior option is basically no requirement at all. Really what I believe (and I realize it's not popular so I don't think anyone else is gonna come around to it, thus compromise is born ) is that as long as bushi and courtiers abilities lock them mundane play styles, the shugenja SHOULD NOT be playing like some guy out of Fairy Tail.

If my courtier can't be Light, if my Bushi can't be Kirito, than your Shugenja shouldn't be summoning golems and swimming through the earth like water.

Edit: My stand by fix is to allow Shugenja to ONLY take spells that fit the Keyword their school is focused on, with every other effect only available at a longer casting time with Importune. But i'm not very happy with this, but so far it's all I've got.

@Shosuro: That quoted part is nice and all, but where is the RULE for enforcing this? Placing an RP requirement on a mechanical superior option is basically no requirement at all. Really what I believe (and I realize it's not popular so I don't think anyone else is gonna come around to it, thus compromise is born ) is that as long as bushi and courtiers abilities lock them mundane play styles, the shugenja SHOULD NOT be playing like some guy out of Fairy Tail.

If my courtier can't be Light, if my Bushi can't be Kirito, than your Shugenja shouldn't be summoning golems and swimming through the earth like water.

Edit: My stand by fix is to allow Shugenja to ONLY take spells that fit the Keyword their school is focused on, with every other effect only available at a longer casting time with Importune. But i'm not very happy with this, but so far it's all I've got.

I think a courtier who is able to kill people cause he writes the names and the way how they die in his pillow book is to much but for Kirito I really have to say I would like to have a bushi who can fight as dynamic and effective as this guy can.

And yes I see the mechanical problem which is why I would like to see mechanical option for Bushi and courtier to play on the same high power level as the Shugenja does. Cause I really disliek the tunig down option most people prefer.

@Shosuro: That quoted part is nice and all, but where is the RULE for enforcing this? Placing an RP requirement on a mechanical superior option is basically no requirement at all. Really what I believe (and I realize it's not popular so I don't think anyone else is gonna come around to it, thus compromise is born ) is that as long as bushi and courtiers abilities lock them mundane play styles, the shugenja SHOULD NOT be playing like some guy out of Fairy Tail.

If my courtier can't be Light, if my Bushi can't be Kirito, than your Shugenja shouldn't be summoning golems and swimming through the earth like water.

Edit: My stand by fix is to allow Shugenja to ONLY take spells that fit the Keyword their school is focused on, with every other effect only available at a longer casting time with Importune. But i'm not very happy with this, but so far it's all I've got.

For me as a GM it is all I need. When I feel like a Shugenja is overusing his/her power as a caster I simply ask: When was the last time you prayed without casting? When did you last visit a shrine or temple? When was the last time you offered something to the kami?

If the player can't answer these: Sorry, but you no longer feel the support of the kami. They don't answer your prayer, since you forgot your priestly duties.

And in the Ninj...erm...Scorpion-Group I play with: Our Shugenja always starts his day with praying. He is visiting the temple as often as possible and offers the kami sacrifices on a regular basis. And our Shosuro Infiltrator is a far better Ninja than our Shugenja...if Ninja existed.

At least you come up with a suggestion.

And as a Shugenja-player I would not really be happy with this, especially for my Isawa. The Isawa don't have a special keyword, so this would have to be fixed in some way. But then again, all my Isawa can do is support the other Samurai.

And don't forget that you can empower your Bushi with Kata and Kiho. The same goes for Courtier.

Hmmmmm....a Nemuranai like the Death Note...just have a new idea for an adventure.

For me as a GM it is all I need. When I feel like a Shugenja is overusing his/her power as a caster I simply ask: When was the last time you prayed without casting? When did you last visit a shrine or temple? When was the last time you offered something to the kami?

If the player can't answer these: Sorry, but you no longer feel the support of the kami. They don't answer your prayer, since you forgot your priestly duties.

Whcih is only a ok move if you talked about it beforehand. If you do it with a person who did not know you give him these restriction I in his stead whould have a problem with it. Cause this is not detailed in the mechnical aspect of the books and therefore it is a houserule which has to be comunitcated before the

start of the playing sesson cause it needs the agreement of all participating persons.

So if we go for Shugenja need to be more priest liek we need some offical mechanics in the new book which are doing this. ( I prefer them to be optional so that people have the freedoom to choose) but without offical mechanics punishing people who follow the mechanical rules of the setting is not the best Idea, at least if the did not agree to it.

And what do you do with a person who yes, remembers to pray to the Kami and yes, makes sure to be very pious and is generally good at roleplaying? Because, shockingly, making optimal tacitcal decisions and using your resources smartly isn't anathema to being a good roleplayer; it's perfectly possible to have a player of a powerful character who is also a good roleplayer.

And yes, I feel that "Aha! I won't allow you to cast this spell I really can't answer in my encounter-building nor reactive encounter-playing, because you didn't specifically mention that you pray to the Kami or visit a shrine during that week long travel, even if you are now looking at me with >dude, it's obvious that my character prays before going to sleep, after waking up, at during the fadeouts scenes, and it's as natural as pooping that they visited the shrine if there was one> in your eyes, I'm so clever." isn't a real solution to the problem, and only emphases the problem overall.

EDIT

And please, Kata are definitely not something that holds a candle to spells. They are, in general, a really suboptimal thing to dabble in, and usually your best option is to pick one whose minor benefit fits you the most, and leave it active all the time (because anything that needs activation eats up your combat actions, and that's a Very Bad Thing). In Past-The-Corebook games, 3/4 of the time answer to "most suitable kata" is "Empire Rests on Its Edge", while in corerulebook game...Strength of Water, or some "token kata I don't really care about but it looks cool".

And no, unless you are houseruling, you can't empower your Bushi with Kiho. There is no variant for that in Core Rulebook, either (there is one in Togashi Dynasty); which is funny, because guess WHO can use Kiho?

@Shosuro: That quoted part is nice and all, but where is the RULE for enforcing this? Placing an RP requirement on a mechanical superior option is basically no requirement at all. Really what I believe (and I realize it's not popular so I don't think anyone else is gonna come around to it, thus compromise is born ) is that as long as bushi and courtiers abilities lock them mundane play styles, the shugenja SHOULD NOT be playing like some guy out of Fairy Tail.

If my courtier can't be Light, if my Bushi can't be Kirito, than your Shugenja shouldn't be summoning golems and swimming through the earth like water.

Edit: My stand by fix is to allow Shugenja to ONLY take spells that fit the Keyword their school is focused on, with every other effect only available at a longer casting time with Importune. But i'm not very happy with this, but so far it's all I've got.

Do you really need a rule for anything? I mean, do you really need a **** rule to do something in a game? Is there a rule about: "How a Clan Champion declare a war to another Clan?" or "How to start a conversation with an NPC?" You don't HAVE to rule every little thing.

First of all, Shugenja are borned with the connectivity with the kami because there is a kami that came to choose him. "After a shugenja dies, the kami would try to find a new person, someone who closely resembled their former companion, often their son or daughter or a close family member. This in turn explained why the gift of a shugenja often appeared more frequent in certain lineages." (Way of the Shugenja p.6) Does it have a rule about how to pick the Shugenja? No, the player simply choose to be a Shugenja.

Second, yes the RP requirement can be a solution when a player is simply abusing his power while ignoring his duty, because he's ignoring his duty. In the end, the Shugenja didn't respect the contract he had with the kami, therefore, they can start to ignore his prayers until he's done with his duty. Heck, that sounds like a great quest just by saying this.

If a Bushi can be stripped of his military rank, if a Courtier can be removed from his Clan's court, why can't the Shugenja be ignored by the kami? People are whining that the Shugenja has everything, because the storytellers are afraid to do the RP requirements. Maybe that's due to their lack of information on their duties and responsabilities.

You said: "than your Shugenja shouldn't be summoning golems and swimming through the earth like water". What stops you from saying that some spells are "Storyteller's approval" at the beginning of the campaign? A lot of storytellers aren't afraid to restrict some clans/advantages/disadvantages, why not for the spells/kiho? But you have to say it at the character creation and be constant. I usually give new spells to my Shugenja as gifts for accomplishing their tasks. Of course, when they ranked up, I let them pick their spells, but I feel like I could select them. However, if I would select them, I would have said it to my player before he picked his character, so he would know that he wouldn't have much of a choice on his spell progression.

A storyteller can do what he wants if it's well done. I'll repeat again: "if it's well done." To do it well, you have to warn our player before the campaign and repeat it a couple of time, so there is no surprises. If your campaign is already started and you want to change something, talk with your players and explain the situation and ask them to help you to fix it. Get your players involved in the decision and they'll back you up later. They will trust your decisions and changes. I always ask my players when I think that I should restrict something, even before the campaign, their feedback helps to take the final decision and they will know the reason behind the restriction.

Cause this is not detailed in the mechnical aspect of the books and therefore it is a houserule which has to be comunitcated before the

start of the playing sesson cause it needs the agreement of all participating persons.

So if we go for Shugenja need to be more priest liek we need some offical mechanics in the new book which are doing this.

Cause this is not detailed in the mechnical aspect of the books and therefore it is a houserule which has to be comunitcated before the

start of the playing sesson cause it needs the agreement of all participating persons.

So if we go for Shugenja need to be more priest liek we need some offical mechanics in the new book which are doing this.

These rules are covered in Imperial Archives.

Oh yeah I see there is a setion with is titled opitional rules. So theorectily you could use them but before sitll have to dicuss this with your play gorup because

since it is an optional rule players have the option to say no to it and than you either can either go the way and say ok than play no Shugenja or just say ok than we play without it.

I ofcourse woul go for the later since players should be happy with their characters but yeah It seems they did actual rules for this.

Also why not suing these rules if oyu want that your char is more like a priest it sound liek a good way to do it and actually is rewarding this playstyle.

I'll put that another way, then. Imperial Archives contains rules for penalising shugenja for not acting like shugenja - specifically in terms of their purity, piety, and worldliness. (or lack thereof) These penalties can increase indefinitely, which means well past the point of negating any attempt at a spellcasting roll.

Cause this is not detailed in the mechnical aspect of the books and therefore it is a houserule which has to be comunitcated before the

start of the playing sesson cause it needs the agreement of all participating persons.

So if we go for Shugenja need to be more priest liek we need some offical mechanics in the new book which are doing this.

These rules are covered in Imperial Archives.

To me, this is the kind of thing that should be in the core book.

And regadring that "Shugenja are like (D&D-)wizards" nonsense (yes IMHO it is nonsense):

There are following ways I encountered regarding limiting the spelluses:

Spellslots (D&D 5th, L5R)

Mana/ Magicpoints/ Zeon (Fantasy Age, Anima:Beyond Fantasy)

Sideeffect-Table (Warhammer 40K and Warhammer Fantasy)

Defined Uses like at-will, daily, once per battle (D&D 4th, 13th Age)

So, the Sideeffect-Variant wouldn't fit L5R since the kami are willing to do what the Shugenja wants them to do and magic isn't a chaotic power in Rokugan.

"Everyone" is whining about the Spellslots and the defined uses isn't really that different. Same goes for the mana/MP/ Zeon-Variant.

So how do you want to limit the uses of spells for the Shugenja? Has anyone thought about this? Can anyone propose a different way?

And again I can only quote the Imperial Archives regarding "Shugenja not priestly enough":

The power and role of “spells” is more obvious, direct, and practical than that of rituals, but even so, no shugenja considers his prayers lightly. To simply call upon the kami every time there is a minor problem or inconvenience is to disrespect their role in the Celestial Wheel. Indeed, this is one of the reasons why shugenja are used sparingly on the battlefield, lest they anger the spirits by abusing their powers. (In game terms, it is also part of the reason why there is a limit on how many spells a shugenja can cast in a day.) It takes both a tremendous effort of will and

tremendous religious understanding to properly summon forth the kami and to shape them to a desired result.

Doing so haphazardly or without reverence may draw the wrath of the supernatural realms, manifesting in anything from a brief magical backlash to a serious decline in the shugenja’s ability to cast spells.

And as far as I remember there are some blessing-spells in one of the elements books (BoA p187: Funeral Rites).

And if someone doesn't have Imperial Archives , Book of Air , and three other books (whichever they might be) to pull together all these little tidbits? If one of your basic "character roles" features spellcasting, then the descriptive text and the mechanics that form the backbone of spellcasting as a fully balanced and "world-fitting" part of the game shouldn't be scattered across 3 or 4 or however many different books.

Regarding "Shugenja are like (D&D-)wizards", that's not really what people are saying -- I don't think anyone is saying that they are wizards, or like wizards.

Some of us are pointing out that the mechanics for shugenja magic (as presented in the core book) don't match what we're told about their role in their culture or how they invoke magic via the natural spirits of the world.

Further, we're pointing out that those mechanics are largely so generic that they could just as easily be used to represent a breadth of different methodologies of magic, sources of "magic power", etc.

I'll put that another way, then. Imperial Archives contains rules for penalising shugenja for not acting like shugenja - specifically in terms of their purity, piety, and worldliness. (or lack thereof) These penalties can increase indefinitely, which means well past the point of negating any attempt at a spellcasting roll.

Wrong. Imperial archives contains option rules. The word optional indicates that they are not something which is active by default. This means that each person affacted of them has to agree to use them. if this is not the case you can try to enforce them onthe players, what I would not recomend or can go a long and not use them.

And I think as general line this would be to restrictive as a non optional rule.

What I can think of would be that the school techniques could get flavors of that. Each unique and each in a different prequisite and consequence.

That they're optional is a matter of fact I don't consider worth getting pedantic over. It's a non-core book. Everything other than the core book is optional, and even the core book has a good portion of clearly optional rules (chapter of water), and the spirit of the "Rokugan Your Way!" enabler, which makes the rest of it optional, too.