This is the first of a series of posts that will ask of you, the community, what you expect to find in the initial release of the L5R RPG, if and when FFG releases it. Mechanics will not be discussed simply because we just do not know what they will be doing with the game, though there are certain aspects of the game that will be included regardless of mechanics. Excluding specific mechanics (dice-rolling is a mechanic), what basic aspects of the game do you expect to find in the new L5R RPG (roles, number of basic schools, etc)?

Mechanics are a deal-breaker for me, simply because if they are inferior or unplayable to older edition, I'm going to stick with her. I can easily create my own stuff and rewrite the setting to fit my group better, but I would prefer a professional team to design proper, balanced, mechanically sound and most importantly, fun to use mechanics and pay them for it instead of getting a book with great setting, and unusable game mechanics.

Basically, I want a book with Game in it, and that Game should be good, because I find it easier to write down setting stuff, than to create a mathematical model for working game. I literally want to pay people for figuring out complicated stuff like "is +1k0 or +2k0 too much" and "what ratio of Wounds per hit to Total Wounds will equal most fun Medium Lethality Setting remembering that at Rank 3 it can be doubled" for me.

For what should be in new RPG, it should have samurai and duels and courts . Mystical stuff can be covered in extra book, because I find samurais investigating stuff, dueling over stuff, and arguing over stuff critical.

I would like to retain ability to have grid-based combat, because I find it tactical and fun, and L5R 4ed is one of my favorite combat setups.

I would like to retain Honor as something that doesn't have Optimal State; High Honor, Low Honor and Mid Honor all should have upsides and downsides (currently, Low Honor gives you more tools by allowing free use of Low Skills and certain powerful tactics, while High Honor gives you stronger rolls and better social recognition)

Modernizing the investigation process and in general "modernizing" certain aspects of the setting that are game-related would be welcome, too.

Drawing more inspiration from China and mainland asian countries, and acknowledging that Rokugan is as much Fantasy China as it is Fantasy Japan would be a nice refresher too.

Oh, and hire a professional asian-logist to double check your stuff...

Gimme my bushi, shugenja, and courtiers.Toss in Monks and actually define both mechanically and fluffwise how their social and practical role is different from the shugenja, and vice-versa.(In short, I'm reasonably happy with what I have)

Make the shugenja's priestly role more central to what they do. While Asian tales do feature the odd wizard here and there, spell-slot counting fireball-slingers are a bit jarring, thematically.

Whatever is done with the setting, Samurai Clans should function as a primary in-setting allegiance, and each Clan should have a reasonably useful martial, political, and mystical path

A combat system lethal enough to discourage drawing steel on a whim, but which can be scaled to group preference.

What do I want.

I want that we stay with the Bushi/Monk/ Sugenja/Courtier thing. But thisw time take care each person is good in his fiield and can not be as good as the others in their respective field. This means that a courtier should actually get techniques thats makes him gurranteed better than a bushi when it comes to court and that it becomes suboptimal to let a non courtier speak in the court.

Pleas not make the Shungenja only priests. What I think is better is that we get schools for each part of the spectrum from priest to wizzard so the game is not driving peoplle away which like a certain type of magic user. Also I want a different mechnic here cause spell slots are not a great way. Why not a tree based advancement system which has IC prequisities for the more powerful spells. This would emphasies the priestly theme and fit more to the asian aspect of dicovery of power.

Change the status, golory and honor applications to the system. As they are now they are not really working and are very easy to break. Also please redo the honor system. as it is now it is not even a clcheee but only super stupid

it does not represent the way of the Warrior in any aspect and therefore is nothing I want to have in the new system as it now is.

The combat system should not be to lethal but also not to easy. I think I want a system which has the danger of death but not something which lets people die a normal ocassion.
I want some ways to reveive people. I really dislike when one of my characters dies before I want him to die and I see a great opportunity in way to bring your character back for story opportunities.

For the setting I think while Samurai drama and conflicts between the clans should be the center I think I also want the supernatural threats and things like the oracles etc take a larger part than they do in the actual one.
The reaosn is that while Samurai drama is part of the asain culture it is not the only one and since L5r is a product of all asain cultuires and not only the japanese ones I think the mythological and supernatural part as well

as the chinematic Wujia stles should have an equal part in the setting and valid ways which enbale them to be played in it.

Last but not least I want that the cultural refercenes inside of the setting should be really cultural referenes and not mostly typcial asian clichees. Atm L5r is full of them I really would like to see more real asian culture inside

of the game than the current clichees it has.

Teveshszat - could you please define what do you mean by "wizzards"? Because we have been talking about Shugenjas in many threads, and I feel that clearing what you mean by "wizards" would help continue conversations with you - because currently, my knee jerk reactions is "but...Shugenjas are priests, and Bloodspeakers are wizards", and that kinda kills the friendly discussion.

Teveshszat - could you please define what do you mean by "wizzards"? Because we have been talking about Shugenjas in many threads, and I feel that clearing what you mean by "wizards" would help continue conversations with you - because currently, my knee jerk reactions is "but...Shugenjas are priests, and Bloodspeakers are wizards", and that kinda kills the friendly discussion.

Hmm yeah. I myself thought is was clear since most people went for the we want the Shugenja more preistly and less wizzard like thing. So I thought it would be clear but yeah ok. In the conext I of the Shugenja debate I think that I say some Isawa and clearly the Agasha are Wizzards. People who a a more pragmatic view and are driven by the thirst for knowlegde about how to make the Kami do what you want from them and how to create specific effects you want. He will ofcourse still repsect the Kami and honor the rites and laws of Rokugan.

Also the wizzard Shugenja would have more a drive towards the more offensive elements lik fire while the priest is more driven to the reactive elements like earth .

The thing is when I think about a wizard I think about a more active magic user and when I think about a priest I see more a reactive supporting magic user. Thats why I want to keep both since I think people would dislike to only be able to play a support if they want to play a magic user or play no magic user at all. I think that the game should have the ability to play a effcient magical dmg dealer which can keep up with the Bushi in terms of deadliness since I can see that people would like to play them and they are also part of the asian culture.

Hmm yeah. I myself thought is was clear since most people went for the we want the Shugenja more preistly and less wizzard like thing. So I thought it would be clear but yeah ok. In the conext I of the Shugenja debate I think that I say some Isawa and clearly the Agasha are Wizzards. People who a a more pragmatic view and are driven by the thirst for knowlegde about how to make the Kami do what you want from them and how to create specific effects you want. He will ofcourse still repsect the Kami and honor the rites and laws of Rokugan.

Also the wizzard Shugenja would have more a drive towards the more offensive elements lik fire while the priest is more driven to the reactive elements like earth .

Three things...

1.The Isawa as a family are the priestliest priests ever to priest. As the foremost shugenja family in the clan that's all about the spiritual traditions of Rokugan, they have shown almost zero pragmatism. Ever. Isawa himself is a different kettle of fish, but the family, much like the Ikoma in the Lion, are a far cry from their founder's mindset.

2. The offense=wizard defense=priest notion is... like, a D&D thing, man.

3. The desire for more priestly than wizardly shugenja had nothing to do with what magic is used for, and all in how the magic is performed and described. Isawa Bill whips out a scroll, reads it, and hurls a fireball at some bandits=wizard. Isawa Bob speaks to the kami of fire, beseeching their aid, and the bandits burst into flame as the kami answer his plea = priest.

The thing is when I think about a wizard I think about a more active magic user and when I think about a priest I see more a reactive supporting magic user. Thats why I want to keep both since I think people would dislike to only be able to play a support if they want to play a magic user or play no magic user at all. I think that the game should have the ability to play a effcient magical dmg dealer which can keep up with the Bushi in terms of deadliness since I can see that people would like to play them and they are also part of the asian culture.

See #2, above.

I am so awfully sorry, but every time I see "wizzard" in this thread I lose all track of what I actually wanted to reply, because all I can think of is Rincewind and his awful hat . So all I can really say is that I broadly agree with Gunichi's points.

For all we talk about better mechanical support for "priestliness" as shugenjas' core function, though, I wonder what that would really look like? If you were going to completely rebuild shugenja in that vein, what in fact would they actually do best, and how would that fit in with the strengths of bush and courtiers, and with the kinds of campaigns people typically like to run in L5R right now? Would you remove the ability to do stuff like Katana of Fire and Strike of the Tsunami or just deemphasize it, and if the latter, how? I know I end up playing not-very-battle-ready shugenja who are quite serious about their spiritual roles, but I'm not really a mechanics genius, so when I try to think about remaking them as a class so as not to fall so easily into the D&D wizard (or, er, wizzard) paradigm, I sort of hit a wall. Though maybe that's a question for a separate thread?

At least as far as I'm concerned, "wizard" vs "priest" in these discussions isn't about what kinds of spells they cast or their "role in the party" based on some silly D&Dism of olde.

It's about the source and style of their magic.

It's about their view of the world... their view of their own place in it... their view of their relationship with the forces of nature, and the realms and powers beyond.

It's about their role in their society/culture .

Hmm yeah. I myself thought is was clear since most people went for the we want the Shugenja more preistly and less wizzard like thing. So I thought it would be clear but yeah ok. In the conext I of the Shugenja debate I think that I say some Isawa and clearly the Agasha are Wizzards. People who a a more pragmatic view and are driven by the thirst for knowlegde about how to make the Kami do what you want from them and how to create specific effects you want. He will ofcourse still repsect the Kami and honor the rites and laws of Rokugan.

Also the wizzard Shugenja would have more a drive towards the more offensive elements lik fire while the priest is more driven to the reactive elements like earth .

Three things...

1.The Isawa as a family are the priestliest priests ever to priest. As the foremost shugenja family in the clan that's all about the spiritual traditions of Rokugan, they have shown almost zero pragmatism. Ever. Isawa himself is a different kettle of fish, but the family, much like the Ikoma in the Lion, are a far cry from their founder's mindset.

2. The offense=wizard defense=priest notion is... like, a D&D thing, man.

3. The desire for more priestly than wizardly shugenja had nothing to do with what magic is used for, and all in how the magic is performed and described. Isawa Bill whips out a scroll, reads it, and hurls a fireball at some bandits=wizard. Isawa Bob speaks to the kami of fire, beseeching their aid, and the bandits burst into flame as the kami answer his plea = priest.

The thing is when I think about a wizard I think about a more active magic user and when I think about a priest I see more a reactive supporting magic user. Thats why I want to keep both since I think people would dislike to only be able to play a support if they want to play a magic user or play no magic user at all. I think that the game should have the ability to play a effcient magical dmg dealer which can keep up with the Bushi in terms of deadliness since I can see that people would like to play them and they are also part of the asian culture.

See #2, above.

And that is only your opinion. I for my part see the Isawa family in line with their founder as I see the Iknoma in line with the original. Maybe thats also the case why I see no problem in the Ikoma Lion Shadow cause I still see the Ikoma as the not so honorable Lion people.

Also how to color the action you are doing is totaly up to you and has no need to put down in rules. What is needed to put down is the role of the Shugenja and the spells he is able to utilize.

Also the defensive & offensive caster is not a D&D paradigim it is a way to classify options you have for your build when you are planning a new Roleplaying game.

Cause in the end you want different roles in you game and therefore have to plan which things could be suited for which role etc or you end up with theproblem we have now where the Shugenja is

better in every thing a player wants to do cause no one cared about the specific role and limitations they should get.

Hmm yeah. I myself thought is was clear since most people went for the we want the Shugenja more preistly and less wizzard like thing. So I thought it would be clear but yeah ok. In the conext I of the Shugenja debate I think that I say some Isawa and clearly the Agasha are Wizzards. People who a a more pragmatic view and are driven by the thirst for knowlegde about how to make the Kami do what you want from them and how to create specific effects you want. He will ofcourse still repsect the Kami and honor the rites and laws of Rokugan.

Also the wizzard Shugenja would have more a drive towards the more offensive elements lik fire while the priest is more driven to the reactive elements like earth .

The thing is when I think about a wizard I think about a more active magic user and when I think about a priest I see more a reactive supporting magic user. Thats why I want to keep both since I think people would dislike to only be able to play a support if they want to play a magic user or play no magic user at all. I think that the game should have the ability to play a effcient magical dmg dealer which can keep up with the Bushi in terms of deadliness since I can see that people would like to play them and they are also part of the asian culture.

This is your point of view and I think it's flawed. A Shugenja isn't a priest or a wizard, it's a Shugenja. It's duty and way of casting is more "priestly" but it's still a Shugenja. They can have the spell they want, as long as they have the requirements. Nothing stops an Asahina Shugenja to have offensive spells, that doesn't change the way of thinking, the duty or anything else, it's still an Asahina Shugenja. There's no such things as "My Shugenja doesn't need to do its Shugenja's duty because he's a wizard Shugenja" because that doesn't exist at all.

Heck, I'll bring the WoW Priest class in this discussion, even if I don't play that game, just to show that a Priest isn't just a supportive/healing bot. The class has a damage dealing specialization, but that doesn't change his class name from "Priest" to "Wizard", it's still "Priest". It's the same thing about a Shugenja. Get the spells you want, that's not important, the most important thing is to roleplay a Shugenja as a Shugenja.

Hmm yeah. I myself thought is was clear since most people went for the we want the Shugenja more preistly and less wizzard like thing. So I thought it would be clear but yeah ok. In the conext I of the Shugenja debate I think that I say some Isawa and clearly the Agasha are Wizzards. People who a a more pragmatic view and are driven by the thirst for knowlegde about how to make the Kami do what you want from them and how to create specific effects you want. He will ofcourse still repsect the Kami and honor the rites and laws of Rokugan.

Also the wizzard Shugenja would have more a drive towards the more offensive elements lik fire while the priest is more driven to the reactive elements like earth .

The thing is when I think about a wizard I think about a more active magic user and when I think about a priest I see more a reactive supporting magic user. Thats why I want to keep both since I think people would dislike to only be able to play a support if they want to play a magic user or play no magic user at all. I think that the game should have the ability to play a effcient magical dmg dealer which can keep up with the Bushi in terms of deadliness since I can see that people would like to play them and they are also part of the asian culture.

This is your point of view and I think it's flawed. A Shugenja isn't a priest or a wizard, it's a Shugenja. It's duty and way of casting is more "priestly" but it's still a Shugenja. They can have the spell they want, as long as they have the requirements. Nothing stops an Asahina Shugenja to have offensive spells, that doesn't change the way of thinking, the duty or anything else, it's still an Asahina Shugenja. There's no such things as "My Shugenja doesn't need to do its Shugenja's duty because he's a wizard Shugenja" because that doesn't exist at all.

Heck, I'll bring the WoW Priest class in this discussion, even if I don't play that game, just to show that a Priest isn't just a supportive/healing bot. The class has a damage dealing specialization, but that doesn't change his class name from "Priest" to "Wizard", it's still "Priest". It's the same thing about a Shugenja. Get the spells you want, that's not important, the most important thing is to roleplay a Shugenja as a Shugenja.

Or as a different example, to borrow a quote from another game -- "You parents bore you. Your parents raised you. I speak for them. They are not happy."

That's not a lovey-healy-supporty priest, not a "reactive spell caster". That's a priest speaking for the angry dead, about to channel their wrath against some dishonorable cur.

We can't have this discussion without also discussing mechanics (or at least how they have been presented up until now. My point of reference begins and ends with 4th edition, so I'll keep my arguments to that alone.)

Shugenja ARE dnd wizards, at least mechanically, no matter what the setting tries to say. points of comparison you say? sure!

1) have limited 'spell slots' that are recharged with a rest

2) spell casting uses physical and verbal components (scrolls and speaking the proper prayers)

3) Has the ability to expand their usefulness by collecting scrolls

4) and this is the biggie: Has a collection of effects that gives them unbridled versatility over EVERY OTHER CLASS (SCHOOL) IN THE GAME.

For me (i can't speak for anyone else) is that the SETTING as presented doesn't match up with the MECHANICS as presented. Shugie's are, hands down, the most effective combatants in the game with just a few spell selections (than they get xp to spend on skills like everyone else. Poor bushi.) Most effective ninja I have ever seen (seriously, air shugenja made an entire group of scorpion feel ineffective) AND the best courtier in the room ( reading minds, changing perceptions? yes please!)

IF they were presented as priests, mechanically, there would be rules for things like.... blessing births and marriages, reading omens and signs (built into the class, not a skill that anyone can take), communing with the gods they speak for (sense, commune, and create i have no problem with for the kami. Maybe a way to gather secrets for the kitsu and their ancestor worship? not the post for this.)

But that is the biggest argument I get from most of my friends regarding this topic. They use "something something setting says" to justify "don't change my OP spell list, that's why I play Shugenja."

Added: This really comes out in Living Campaign style play (Heroes of Rokugan) in a major way. In which Shugenja have taken every major competition. Every. One. No Bushi or courtiers, just shugenja. The mechanics are a problem.

We can't have this discussion without also discussing mechanics (or at least how they have been presented up until now. My point of reference begins and ends with 4th edition, so I'll keep my arguments to that alone.)

Shugenja ARE dnd wizards, at least mechanically, no matter what the setting tries to say. points of comparison you say? sure!

1) have limited 'spell slots' that are recharged with a rest

2) spell casting uses physical and verbal components (scrolls and speaking the proper prayers)

3) Has the ability to expand their usefulness by collecting scrolls

4) and this is the biggie: Has a collection of effects that gives them unbridled versatility over EVERY OTHER CLASS (SCHOOL) IN THE GAME.

For me (i can't speak for anyone else) is that the SETTING as presented doesn't match up with the MECHANICS as presented. Shugie's are, hands down, the most effective combatants in the game with just a few spell selections (than they get xp to spend on skills like everyone else. Poor bushi.) Most effective ninja I have ever seen (seriously, air shugenja made an entire group of scorpion feel ineffective) AND the best courtier in the room ( reading minds, changing perceptions? yes please!)

IF they were presented as priests, mechanically, there would be rules for things like.... blessing births and marriages, reading omens and signs (built into the class, not a skill that anyone can take), communing with the gods they speak for (sense, commune, and create i have no problem with for the kami. Maybe a way to gather secrets for the kitsu and their ancestor worship? not the post for this.)

But that is the biggest argument I get from most of my friends regarding this topic. They use "something something setting says" to justify "don't change my OP spell list, that's why I play Shugenja."

Added: This really comes out in Living Campaign style play (Heroes of Rokugan) in a major way. In which Shugenja have taken every major competition. Every. One. No Bushi or courtiers, just shugenja. The mechanics are a problem.

We've been having that discussion in another thread.

The spellcasting mechanics and other rules for Shugenja could have the "names and serial numbers" filed off, and be used to model bog-standard Plain Olde Wizard Spellcasting just as readily as they represent "a priest speaking to the kami and invoking their powers through piety, bargains, and/or ancient pacts and rote prayers".

There needs to be some synergy between setting and system on these things, as far as I'm concerned -- each needs to back the other up in establishing the feel of the world, the verisimilitude and internal coherence.

Back when I was doing a lot in HERO system, one of the ongoing arguments I had with some players -- and even the people at DOJ occasionally -- was in opposition to the two HERO-community-common approaches (which themselves had a lot of far more heated arguments) of "Special effects and mechanics are separate, go with the most efficient point build" and "special effects and mechanics are separate, the more expensive build is usually more appropriate". My position was that the mechanics of a constructed Power should reflect the in-setting feel and function of that Power instead of total focus on the points and rules-minutia involved.

Stuff about wizards

Well, if you want to go down that route, then every magic-capable character, in every fantasy setting ever written (or to be written) is equivalent to a D&D wizard. *shrug*

But then again, that's why we have setting and flavor to separate the waters. It's the same thing as if you were comparing cars - they all have an engine, they all have four wheels, they're all mass-manufactured... clearly they must all be Ford.

Stuff about wizards

Well, if you want to go down that route, then every magic-capable character, in every fantasy setting ever written (or to be written) is equivalent to a D&D wizard. *shrug*

But then again, that's why we have setting and flavor to separate the waters. It's the same thing as if you were comparing cars - they all have an engine, they all have four wheels, they're all mass-manufactured... clearly they must all be Ford.

I'm pretty sure that there are plenty of magic-capable characters in fiction and games who don't use "spell slots" and "daily spells", don't use some or all of the "V-S-C" triad, do or don't use scrolls or some other items, and so on -- some of whom are even called "wizards".

1) have limited 'spell slots' that are recharged with a rest

2) spell casting uses physical and verbal components (scrolls and speaking the proper prayers)

3) Has the ability to expand their usefulness by collecting scrolls

4) and this is the biggie: Has a collection of effects that gives them unbridled versatility over EVERY OTHER CLASS (SCHOOL) IN THE GAME. <

1) So as D&D Clerics, therefore, not a valid point...

2) So as D&D Clerics, therefore, not a valid point...

3) The only real ressemblance with the D&D Wizard.

4) D&D Clerics already have access to all of their spells, they just have to prepare them, which makes them more versatile, while the Wizard only knows a few spells...

As I said, Shugenja are Shugenja... They have their own identities through the setting. That's their flavor, no matter how you build your Shugenja, it will have to keep up with the Shugenja's duty, like the Courtier's duty and Bushi's duty... This "Priest VS Wizard" debate on the Shugenja is pointless since it has his own identity, it's called being Shugenja. The mechanics? It's the Shugenja's mechanics. Can it be better? Yes, it can. Should it be in the corebook? Unless it's 3 pages max, it should be in a supplement. I play L5R because of the setting, not the mechanics (I'm not saying that I don't like the mechanics, it can be improved, but it's not my primary focus when I pick a RPG).

Not really, there is a lot of non-dnd style wizards hanging around, even in DND games. Just from DnD 3,5, you have Psions and Binders, who are both very different mechanical takes on "magic" than classical Magical Revolver of DnD Wizard (because, let's be honest - DnD Wizard is like a gun, which you preload with specific spell bullets to unleash when time comes).

What always made Cleric and Wizard very different from each other wasn't really defensive nature of priest or offensive nature of wizard, but Priest's class features and style - specific gods/domains gave you priestly abilities, recharging your spells involved praying at appropiate time of the day, you actually had abilities to do classical priest stuff, and if you went against rules of your faith, your spellcasting went *poof*.

For me (i can't speak for anyone else) is that the SETTING as presented doesn't match up with the MECHANICS as presented. Shugie's are, hands down, the most effective combatants in the game with just a few spell selections (than they get xp to spend on skills like everyone else. Poor bushi.) Most effective ninja I have ever seen (seriously, air shugenja made an entire group of scorpion feel ineffective) AND the best courtier in the room ( reading minds, changing perceptions? yes please!)

ok, since i'm REALLY interested in this particular topic, I think I'm gonna make a thread dedicated to just talking about shugenja (mechanics and feel) so it doesn't take over completely this thread. See you guys over there!

And that is only your opinion.

The same can be (and has been) said about literally everything you've said on this issue. So?

I for my part see the Isawa family in line with their founder

Isawa innovated, changed, and embraced notjust new spells but new ways of performing magic. He adjusted to an entirely new theory on how to do things. The Isawa family , by contrast, are on average as open to change as the rules of chess.

Also how to color the action you are doing is totaly up to you and has no need to put down in rules. What is needed to put down is the role of the Shugenja and the spells he is able to utilize.

Describing how and why someone does their magic is integral to a setting.

Also the defensive & offensive caster is not a D&D paradigim it is a way to classify options you have for your build when you are planning a new Roleplaying game.

You, not anyone else, are the one who brought up "wizard = offense, priest =support." No one else had made that contention. No one else demanded that their "priestly" shugenja become more support casters, because no one else sees a need to inject a false dichotomy. Your worry that shugenja would become incapable of frontline spellslinging is clearly and plainly derived from the D&D-style paradigm(a paradigm even D&D has long since gotten away from)

Cause in the end you want different roles in you game and therefore have to plan which things could be suited for which role etc or you end up with the problem we have now where the Shugenja is

better in every thing a player wants to do cause no one cared about the specific role and limitations they should get.

And these problems... well.

1. They're present any time some characters can use magic and others cannot. Whether I'm playing KOTOR and finding my non-Jedi companions increasingly worthless, or whether I'm standing around with my AD&D 2nd Edition Rogue cooling his heels because the party wizard can cast spells that emulate literally everything my guy is capable of, magic breaks things. Shugenja have a definied role in the setting. Getting them to fill that rolein the game is what this whole side tangent is about.

2. Different roles are a function of setting as much as mechanics. The culture of the setting is of vital importance here- and it what makes some of us who are invested in the setting want our shugenja to be priests, rather than magical technicians.

At the very least, if some groups of shugenja are more "priestly" and some are more "technical", there should be a lot more explicit tension between those groups in the setting.

There are two things I find hugely lacking in the way shugenja are currently implemented.

#1 -- If they're priests, then why don't we see them, y'know, offering religious guidance to people more often? Why aren't more of their spells about blessing crops and newborns and marriages, why aren't their techniques about placating spirits and divining the will of the Heavens? It isn't that priests can't nuke things with magic; rather, when that's the majority of what their mechanics are for, they start looking like magic artillery rather than religious leaders. Call it a wizard if you want; the term doesn't matter. The real issue is the gap between the role they supposedly occupy in society, and what the system actually equips them to do.

EDIT: I should head replies off at the pass here and say: there aren't more spells about blessing crops etc because that's hella boring as a thing to do in game. But you can still have magic that's about being religious in more plot interesting ways.

#2 -- If the flavor of their magic involves interacting with spirits, why is there no actual interaction there? Right now, they might as well be using their prayers to mix napalm as to persuade the fire kami to burn something for them. Yeah, yeah -- nobody wants a system where their spells might not work because they haven't been maintaining good relations with the spirits. But it would do a lot to make them feel less like D&D wizards. At least a D&D cleric can lose their cleric abilities if they lose the favor of their god. I would believe much more in the shugenja-y-ness of shugenja if I felt like the entities they relied upon were actual entities, rather than automata that do exactly as commanded.

Ugh.

Messed up "world as written" moment, Rokugan-style, from the 4th ed core book (163, first paragraph), that sadly stands at odds with just about everything else in print about Rokugani shugenja, and maybe gives us a look inside how the setting/system dichotomy became so blatant in the RPG rules:

"The invocations used by shugenja to accomplish incredible effects are ritualized players that invoke the kami in a carefully researched, specific manner. Because the kami lack free will as mankind understands it, they tend to respond in roughly the same manner each time a specific prayer is invoked, hence the relatively static effects of the spells described in this section."

In that paragraph, at least, they're making the shugenja out to be a lot more like a European "magus" than like someone who actually has to treat with the spirits. Just going by those two sentences, the spirits might be the conduit for the power, but the shugenja are really just using researched and perfected formula to access the forces of reality and create repeatable effects in the same way a "words, symbols, rotes, and such" magic user would.

For some reason, I find the inclusion of that little section in the game text kinda sad.

I remembered the part about spells being a tried-and-true way to get the same effect every time, but I didn't remember the part about the kami not having free will.

I've been pondering the issue of how to incorporate spiritual favor/disfavor into spellcasting without it becoming an annoyance for anybody playing a shugenja, and I'm leaning toward the conclusion that it would work best if the spellcasting system were designed, not as a binary system (you hit your TN, base or Raised, or you don't), but as a "degrees of success/failure" scale. We freelancers spent some time discussing whether it was a good idea to suggest penalties for shugenja who are impure or lead excessively worldly lives, but I don't like the penalty approach; it too easily veers into punishing the player for interacting with the plot. But if success was scalar, then you can approach it mostly or entirely as bonuses, rather than penalties: your base roll, the sort of thing that happens when you're a slacker priest not paying much attention to your spiritual well-being, can get you very basic success, but not much more. But if you continually engage in actions that are pleasing to the kami and refrain from things that defile you, then you gain bonuses which improve your odds of getting more than basic success. Save the penalties for stuff like "you touched a dead body and haven't purified yourself yet," not for "you have too many ranks in Courtier and spend too much time engaging in politics."