I appreciate what you're trying to say, but "Oh, you're just using them wrong!" isn't terribly helpful to people struggling to see the relevance of Squadrons in the game.

If you know something they don't, then please share the knowledge.

I've said it a good number of times, so I get tired saying it, but not everyone will have seen what I've said before. So you're right, I should be more helpful.

See, I don't think people are looking at squadrons the right way. A lot of people look at the fleet cost of fighters, and the loss of another ship activation and think, "They can't punch through to the hull with only a black die or a red die."

If you're only thinking of doing hull damage with every attack then yea, it looks like a waste of points.

Thing is, that's not the right way to look at it. Simple build that requires no skill to use: Rhymer, Tie Bomber, Tie Advanced x2

All of those shoot black dice (Crits don't count on the Advanced, but it's still a 75% of 1 damage) at medium range with Rhymer. (Expanded Hangers) That's 4 dice being shot at a ship from a squadron activation. What's even better is that unlike a ship rolling 4 dice and getting, lets say 6 damage, the defender does not get to brace down that 6. They are being attacked FOUR times. 2, 2, 1, 1 and still have to deal with your ships one or two attacks. So in your activation you one ship, let's say a VSD at close range, will activate squadrons, deal 2, 2, 1, 1 and then itself get two attacks for 3 black 3 Red, and 2 Red 1 Black -- 7 Damage and 3 Damage. One activation you get a total of 16 damage (which is already better than just your two ship attacks) but what's even better is those bomber attacks most likely will not be braced or redirected because they know your ship still has to attack. Or, even better they use a brace for your bomber attack meaning one of your ships attacks will not get braced for sure. You break up the attack in to 6 separate attacks which makes it harder to reduce over all damage coming into the ship.

If you just attack with the ship and throw in a concentrate fire command you're looking at max damage of 14 Damage, they spend a brace, it's now 7 and an Mark II AF can redirect that onto it's side and front shields to eat it all up, and spread it even better if it has advanced projectors on it. With the squadron command you're looking at a max damage of 12 from your front arc (only 2 less) and adding a possible 2,2,1,1 = 6 damage which is harder to stop. Already a much better deal in terms of damage and their ability to negate that damage

That concentrate fire command could essential be eaten up by a defense token, whereas the squadron command cannot and if even one of the attacks is blocked using the token, it just means your fist full of dice from your Capital Ship(s) won't have to worry about it. Win/Win.

With boosted coms it's even easier to control squadrons now. Armada is not necessarily an easy game if you're playing really good people. It's hard and you HAVE to be able to think much further a head and see the big picture.

Synergy. Don't look at each step as a stand alone section that has no impact on the rest of your turn and future turns.

couldnt agree more with your #2, starkiller. Those torpedoes by bombers are not reflected at all in the game, same range as lasers does not do the fighter concept in Star Wars justice.

All that is granted, but IMO it overlooks the value of Accuracy results, and ignores the fact that points spent on fighters could be spent on ships.

It's not a case of Concentrate Fire vs Squadron commands. It's a case of Concentrate Fire x2 vs Squadron Commands. Because the ship you've bought instead of those squadrons can also issue it's own orders.

Squadrons definitely have value. I love them. You get to spread damage over multiple attacks, they're much less susceptible to damage from enemy ships, you can use them to pad out your deployment, but when it comes to actually dealing damage they're a bit lackluster. If they're not getting ordered, then they're getting left behind. If they are, then you're effectively losing out on TWO other orders since an MC30 bought instead of some fighters can order itself, and the ship that would have otherwise been ordering those fighters can now order itself as well. And like you say, boosted coms and the Independence title will go a long way to making things easier, but Squadrons are a lot harder to get mileage from than ships.

Players need to build their other ships around the fact that their squadrons will need consistent orders, and I don't mean just throwing Yavaris in the mix and thinking that's enough. They need to take into account that each turn, at least one of their ships will not be able to give itself an order. And sometimes, it will be the ship they need the most. So things like Wing Commander, Leia, Weapons Liason, Admiral Chiraneau, etc become extremely important. So too do things like Projection Experts and Redundant Shields because they allow your ship to repair damage while at the same ordering those Squadrons. A player including squadrons also needs to consider that he's reducing the number of ship activations and thus needs to try hard to get the first turn to be sure that he isn't getting double teamed by a last-then-first activation from the enemy. And since he's trying so hard to be the first player, he needs to consider that he will have to pick the enemies objectives and should therefore do his best to make sure his fleet is capable of handling a wide range of different objectives. And he'll need to be good at working out which of a players objectives his fleet will be the weakest at.

There's a LOT going on that the squadron heavy player needs to be aware of.

People keep mentioning rhymer as if he is somehow useful for this discussion or indicative of attack craft as a whole. He isn't. His ability bypasses the squadron mechanics entirely.

I've read all the posts so far, and some people bring up some good points for both sides. But the problem is two-fold:

Star Wars space combat is about a combined arms approach. We see that implemented fairly well on the ship aspect of Armada, but it's poorly represented (outside of Rhymer) on the Squadron side, even after the Rogues and Villains.

Fighters simply don't output sufficient damage to be a menacing enough threat to take fighters to intercept them.

Lets take a look at critical elements of the game vs. the movies:

In the movies, tactical decisions are made by fighters. In Armada, Luke Skywalker had better keep his targetting computer up because neither he no any other individual pilot can do jack without the input of a nearby ship. Excepting special cases like Han Solo, of course. Han Solo is thinking through the entire fight, planning tricky maneuvers and planning his next move. When Han Solo acts, he isn't just a ifghter looking for a target, he's planning in advance how to win a fight and move to his next target faster than any tactical team is able to predict enemy action.

In Armada, capital ships require the combined effort of entire crews to handle combat situations, and can only perform at a fraction of efficiency when the crew's directives are split (tokens). In Star Wars and the 20th century naval warfare it's based on, multi-tasking is/was the norm. We haven't depended on individual commanders directing every aspect of the battle since the development of portable radio allowed on-the-ground commanders to have a broad tactical overview of the field. Likewise, fighter pilots are trained to have a basic understanding of the tactical situation with basic support of a flight controller. They don't need to hang out doing nothing when an enemy squadron comes within range, they certainly don't need to act surprised when they fly diectly at said squadron fully planning to engage.

As such, here is my sugestion:

1: Squadrons function as they do now, except that every squadron can move and then attack if possible during the squadron phase. A squadron that cannot move or which is engaged must forego it's movement before it can attack if it was not activated by a ship or the Rogue keyword.

2: Squadrons activated as if by a squadron command may take two actions during the phase, either a move or an attack (or any future squadron ability), in any combination.

3: Squadrons with any keyword abilities function exactly the same as they do now, including Rogue, Grit, Bomber, Escort, Heavy, and numerous special abilities. Ship abilities like Yavaris become even more powerful and desireable.

Suddenly, this fixes many issues with fighters. Fighters suddenly have agency and the ships make them better suited to a given task, instead of helplessly waiting on the sidelines until a squadron command comes up. They can be aggressive or defensive in nature depending on the desires of the player. Squadrons have defined weaknesses to enemy fighter screens, especially in mobility. Fighters are no longer required to function solely as the puppets of larger ships.

Most importantly, ships that activate fighters are aiding fighters in acheiving objectives and goals that fighters are unquely suited towards.

It also has the final benefit of making fighter screens interesting to play and watch. A TIE Fighter wing is now looking to engage even when positioning defensively to ward off enemy bombers. B-Wings are no longer worried about barely keeping up, instead they are maneuvering in for a bombing run while faster capital ships herd the enemy into position. A-Wings and TIE Interceptors are dropping into the middle of enemy fighter formations to slow down the enemy advance. And Y-Wings and TIE Bombers slide past each other looking to deliver deadly cargo, their paths and plans formed before they even left the briefing room.

Right now instead, we now see squadrons tip-toe up and wait for a ship or squadron to come to them, perhaps a few jockeyed into the fight by a nearby carrier that will leave them utterly defenseless should it be taken down by enemy action.

People keep mentioning rhymer as if he is somehow useful for this discussion or indicative of attack craft as a whole. He isn't. His ability bypasses the squadron mechanics entirely.

And makes him vastly more efficient. The issue is that the mechanics of fighters in general are inefficient. When a single character makes an entire faction better by altering a game mechanic, it indicates a poorly designed mechanic. The mechanic in this case being "fighters that aren't constantly guided by ships cannot do damage or aid your fleet." Rogue is another mechanic alteration doing the same thing and likewise making individual squadrons vastly better.

Instead of completely changing how fighters work, how about simply removing the squadron command and turning that in a passive rule for every ship? I.e. every ship can activate as many squadrons within range as its command value allows, every single turn. Rogue ships would also still be useful for when your total command value is less than the amount of squadrons you field or at long distances from your ships.

Fighters simply don't output sufficient damage to be a menacing enough threat to take fighters to intercept them.

wait...people still actually believe this?

boy oh boy, I'm going to get to enjoy a few more free wins on the backs of B-wings

seriously, in whatever list it shows up Yavaris B-wings have been an easy-win game carrier

most famously (locally), at the final around of a tournament before sullest against the gencol special

there was really nothing the other play could have done since he didn't bring any tie fighters, so he tried to kill Yavaris ASAP.

this resulted in the gladiator box being unceremoniously eviscerated

that negative space between the rock and the B-wings? Gladiator ashes

that Gladiator coming in from the front? dead man walking

4 B-wing shots and Nebulon fire are all that was needed to annihilate a Gladiator per round, and once the box was gone Yavaris was just a nav token away from speed-3 zoid berging out of there

and that's it. The rest of the game, the Bs just sat in the middle of the table putting holes into poor Skreed's VSD while Yavaris ran for the hills. They didn't need any more commands to utterly devastate the enemy (just more luck, stupid Skreed lived on one hull ).

so yeah, underestimating squadrons is a quick ticket to free wins for whoever uses them. The opponent only has to be aware of how their squadrons work.

B-wings are going to go diving in and bombing the crap out of zippy ships; we have Rhymer (who, after the initial positioning, doesn't need support at all because of his range) for that or even A-wings.

with Wave 2, we're getting Boosted Comms, which is changing the squadron game up far more than Rogue imo. Long range squadron commands makes it a lot easier to keep command range while running flighty ships such as Assault Frigates or Mon Cals, letting you keep your distance from enemy star destroyers will still hurling squadrons around.

Instead of completely changing how fighters work, how about simply removing the squadron command and turning that in a passive rule for every ship? I.e. every ship can activate as many squadrons within range as its command value allows, every single turn. Rogue ships would also still be useful for when your total command value is less than the amount of squadrons you field or at long distances from your ships.

The problem with recommendations like this one is that FFG is not going to redesign their command dials. They can always change rules or issue erratas or whatever, but changing their physical products is very unlikely. You could hypothetically change how the squadron command worked, but you can't remove it entirely.

I also feel like squadrons need a little something (and my recommendation of a mandatory % of your fleet points spent on squadrons was reacted to extremely rudely, so I can sympathize with anyone who feels like the kickback is perhaps a bit severe) but I'd like to see how wave 2 shakes out. If rogues get used, it's certainly a good step forward, but if it's overall only Rogues, Rhymer balls, and Yavaris+B-Wing groups, it will still seem as though it's an underpowered element of the game that only sees play when something allows you to override the base mechanics in some fashion.

For the most part I think squadrons are OK. They are not great but they are not useless either. I mostly agree with point #2 and think it would balance out Bombers a little better. I might test this out with someone when I get a chance.

Please bring zero squadron lists in this wave. Please. It makes life so easy.

Instead of completely changing how fighters work, how about simply removing the squadron command and turning that in a passive rule for every ship? I.e. every ship can activate as many squadrons within range as its command value allows, every single turn. Rogue ships would also still be useful for when your total command value is less than the amount of squadrons you field or at long distances from your ships.

The problem with recommendations like this one is that FFG is not going to redesign their command dials. They can always change rules or issue erratas or whatever, but changing their physical products is very unlikely. You could hypothetically change how the squadron command worked, but you can't remove it entirely.

Fair enough, though they could of course make the current squadron command a passive ability that you can always use, and let the squadron command be an upgraded version of that (reroll attack dice vs squadrons for example). I'm all for watching what wave 2 does for squadrons of course, this is all hypothetically speaking.

My issue with squadron is rhymer feels broken. For 43 points you get rhymer and three bombers that can shoot a combine 4 black dice at medium range. And can withstand 12 points of anti fighter dmg.

Rhymer ball means brace is worthless evade worthless and redirect is somewhat usefully more so if the enemy has x17 lasers.

While the rebels bombers get the named b wing that lets him reroll the dice, dutch that can cause a target squadron to lose it turn which is crap if the other side burns a squadron command and activated all his squadrons 1st. And luke who ignore shield for his 1 dice.

Infact I think the imp squadron are vastly superior to the rebels. A VSD can have fight controller given the tie 4 rlblue dice and if it swarms a reroll. Tie bombers can outrun a xwing and with one upgrade move speed 5 or as fast as a a wing.

No rebel ship can equipped boosted comms flight controller and hanger bays. But the vsd and isd can.

Not to speak of the fact that imp have a few ship that can cause auto dmg like mithral, fett and fel with a escort. But then their name pilots can also cancel all your attack dice. So wedge with flight controller go against howlrunner and toss his 7 blue dice and get hits on all 7 well howlrunner can just ignore all that.

So i think tie bombers should of been speed 3 or xwing speed 4. Heck a ISD moving at speed three could outrun most of the rebels fleets

Also dash could of been better give him a counter and such. Heck i would of love for the hwk290 to give counter 1 like dengar does to rebal ships.

So in short think squadron need some work and fixes and the rebel side some love. Heck i think most rebel squadron should see a little cost decrease.

My issue with squadron is rhymer feels broken. For 43 points you get rhymer and three bombers that can shoot a combine 4 black dice at medium range. And can withstand 12 points of anti fighter dmg.

That has to shoot at a fighter the moment any fighter Turns up, and are also completely blocked by Obstruction.

Rhymer ball means brace is worthless evade worthless and redirect is somewhat usefully more so if the enemy has x17 lasers.

Mon Mothma Evades still occasionally work. But its not just Rhymer ball, that's any squadron - a Squadron Advantage!

While the rebels bombers get the named b wing that lets him reroll the dice, dutch that can cause a target squadron to lose it turn which is crap if the other side burns a squadron command and activated all his squadrons 1st. And luke who ignore shield for his 1 dice.

**** straight like ignores Shields... Ignores shields, gets a Crit, and you should see the look on your opponents face when that Crit is the one that drops the shields on their strongest facing, right before your AFMK-II attacks in that direction.

Additonally, you're ignoring the fact that Dutch potentially does Extra Damage if they activated first. The Synergistic Idea is that Dutch + Wedge work somewhat together.

Infact I think the imp squadron are vastly superior to the rebels. A VSD can have fight controller given the tie 4 rlblue dice and if it swarms a reroll. Tie bombers can outrun a xwing and with one upgrade move speed 5 or as fast as a a wing.

With the specific exception of the TIE Bomber, the advantage the rebels have is Staying Power... Its exceptional when even TIE Interceptors with Howlrunner waste a Rebel Squadron in one Round... But X-Wings can do it all day to the others.

No rebel ship can equipped boosted comms flight controller and hanger bays. But the vsd and isd can.

Gotta pay a price for your mobility and staying power somewhere.

Not to speak of the fact that imp have a few ship that can cause auto dmg like mithral, fett and fel with a escort. But then their name pilots can also cancel all your attack dice. So wedge with flight controller go against howlrunner and toss his 7 blue dice and get hits on all 7 well howlrunner can just ignore all that.

Unless of course, ONE of your Blue Dice happens to be an Accuracy... And that applies to Tycho as well as Howlrunner. Plus, one thing to remember, is that Mauler Mithel only works when Engaging, so hiding in an Asteroid Field is immunity to Mithel. B-Wings can not only hide in Asteroid Fields, but they can still shoot at ships as they go past - they give up one Die, which leaves them a Die... No other Wave-1 Squadron can do that.

So i think tie bombers should of been speed 3 or xwing speed 4. Heck a ISD moving at speed three could outrun most of the rebels fleets

Speed 4 X-Wings... You just made half of my gaming group involuntarily clench up... Speed 3 with 5 Hull and 4 Anti-Squadron, as well as Bomber on Red, which isn't *fantastic* but is still useful - well worth its points still.

Also dash could of been better give him a counter and such. Heck i would of love for the hwk290 to give counter 1 like dengar does to rebal ships.

The Ability to disengage from Combat due to Intel is great when you DO want to go Ship Hunting. As it is, Counter is an attack, and there's plenty of ways to ignore them.

So in short think squadron need some work and fixes and the rebel side some love. Heck i think most rebel squadron should see a little cost decrease.

I don't agree with this at all - There are far too many things we need to see first - Let's first get a good look at how all of the Squadrons will interact with each other, beyond merely speculating. Do I wish rebel Squadrons were cheaper? Of course I do, I'm a primarily Rebel player now... But I do believe you're getting value for points out of them. Remember, everything except the A-Wing has Bomber, which means that there are a lot of values that "Count" when shooting at Ships. Additionally, with the Exception of the Y-Wing, they're all still half-decent at Anti-Squadron, coupled with their generally fairly robust Hull ratings - Rebels are built to Last. TIEs are built to be Expendable.

My issue with X-Wings is that they are so heavily overshadowed by A-Wings that they aren't worth it. They are a multirole fighter that can't catch opposing bombers and have a more finicky anti-ship die that does the same average damage as an A-Wing at a cost of two extra points. They do gain an extra hull point and anti-squadron die but loses counter in the process. I have had several instances where an opponent refused to fire at my A-Wings for fear of losing their own squadron in the counter attack and thus freeing up the A-Wing. That will never happen with an X-Wing.

B-Wings also beat the X-Wing in efficiency as well. This is of little surprise as they are a more dedicated craft but, for only one extra point, gain an extra hull point and have a much more devastating anti-ship armament. Three blue anti-squadron dice means that they aren't helpless against fighters either, unlike a TIE Bomber.

The X-Wing is probably my favorite starfighter of all time but I cannot justify taking them given the other options available. Options to improve them would include speed 4, counter 1 or reduced cost. Obviously only one of these could be chosen as adding more would likely just swing the pendulum too far in the other direction.

Im starting to feel that flight controllers are a must have for rebel squadrons. sure its good with howlrunner and TIE INs but its probably over kill. We will see if R & V changes that. (due to increased health pools)

So, problems I am still seeing this thread is that all the good examples rely on Imperial squadrons, mostly with Rhymer. This fails to address actual squadron mechanics, as Rhymer completely changes the mechanics for ship attacks. Even then, the arguments are being based on single activations. Running an 2x AF2, 1x Corvette, 1x A-wing list, if I am following my doctrine, that Rhymer should not get more than two chances at any one ship (and probably only one).
The one example of Yavaris B-Wings succeeding is misleading, too. It is clear from that picture that the Imp badly mishandled his positioning and speed (two shots from Glads will kill that Neb easy) and a Neb cannot outrun a Glad.

Infact I think the imp squadron are vastly superior to the rebels. A VSD can have fight controller given the tie 4 rlblue dice and if it swarms a reroll. Tie bombers can outrun a xwing and with one upgrade move speed 5 or as fast as a a wing.

With the specific exception of the TIE Bomber, the advantage the rebels have is Staying Power... Its exceptional when even TIE Interceptors with Howlrunner waste a Rebel Squadron in one Round... But X-Wings can do it all day to the others.

This is categorically untrue, especially so if the Imp is sending in Mithel and the Baron. The extra hitpoint do not matter with Howlrunner and Swarm, and especially do not matter when the Baron is present (which cannot be countered in wave 1; we'll see how efficient Wave 2 builds are at this later).

So, problems I am still seeing this thread is that all the good examples rely on Imperial squadrons, mostly with Rhymer. This fails to address actual squadron mechanics, as Rhymer completely changes the mechanics for ship attacks. Even then, the arguments are being based on single activations. Running an 2x AF2, 1x Corvette, 1x A-wing list, if I am following my doctrine, that Rhymer should not get more than two chances at any one ship (and probably only one).

The one example of Yavaris B-Wings succeeding is misleading, too. It is clear from that picture that the Imp badly mishandled his positioning and speed (two shots from Glads will kill that Neb easy) and a Neb cannot outrun a Glad.

All that is granted, but IMO it overlooks the value of Accuracy results, and ignores the fact that points spent on fighters could be spent on ships.

It's not a case of Concentrate Fire vs Squadron commands. It's a case of Concentrate Fire x2 vs Squadron Commands. Because the ship you've bought instead of those squadrons can also issue it's own orders.

Squadrons definitely have value. I love them. You get to spread damage over multiple attacks, they're much less susceptible to damage from enemy ships, you can use them to pad out your deployment, but when it comes to actually dealing damage they're a bit lackluster. If they're not getting ordered, then they're getting left behind. If they are, then you're effectively losing out on TWO other orders since an MC30 bought instead of some fighters can order itself, and the ship that would have otherwise been ordering those fighters can now order itself as well. And like you say, boosted coms and the Independence title will go a long way to making things easier, but Squadrons are a lot harder to get mileage from than ships.

Players need to build their other ships around the fact that their squadrons will need consistent orders, and I don't mean just throwing Yavaris in the mix and thinking that's enough. They need to take into account that each turn, at least one of their ships will not be able to give itself an order. And sometimes, it will be the ship they need the most. So things like Wing Commander, Leia, Weapons Liason, Admiral Chiraneau, etc become extremely important. So too do things like Projection Experts and Redundant Shields because they allow your ship to repair damage while at the same ordering those Squadrons. A player including squadrons also needs to consider that he's reducing the number of ship activations and thus needs to try hard to get the first turn to be sure that he isn't getting double teamed by a last-then-first activation from the enemy. And since he's trying so hard to be the first player, he needs to consider that he will have to pick the enemies objectives and should therefore do his best to make sure his fleet is capable of handling a wide range of different objectives. And he'll need to be good at working out which of a players objectives his fleet will be the weakest at.

There's a LOT going on that the squadron heavy player needs to be aware of.

It doesn't over look the fact those could be spent on ships. It was one of the FIRST things I said:

A lot of people look at the fleet cost of fighters, and the loss of another ship activation and think, "They can't punch through to the hull with only a black die or a red die.

Your argument hinges on it being too complex to be viable for most players, which is what my orginal point was, most people are playing it wrong. Most people do NOT understand how to play squadrons effectively and therefore a lot of people think squadrons suck. They do not, you just have to be good at using them, which I explained above.

Please bring zero squadron lists in this wave. Please. It makes life so easy.

This. I try to help; but I'm happy to take free wins. As, oddly, Armada is still a blast even when you're trouncing people

Please bring zero squadron lists in this wave. Please. It makes life so easy.

This. I try to help; but I'm happy to take free wins. As, oddly, Armada is still a blast even when you're trouncing people

Please bring zero squadron lists in this wave. Please. It makes life so easy.

This. I try to help; but I'm happy to take free wins. As, oddly, Armada is still a blast even when you're trouncing people

I agree. Trounced Mikael Hasselstein Friday twice and it was great.

Speaking of...need to get some Vassal games in. Got really busy recently when I said we'd play Lyr :\

Need to fix my Vassal too: windows 10 upgrade and haven't set it all up yet

Fighters simply don't output sufficient damage to be a menacing enough threat to take fighters to intercept them.

wait...people still actually believe this?

boy oh boy, I'm going to get to enjoy a few more free wins on the backs of B-wings

seriously, in whatever list it shows up Yavaris B-wings have been an easy-win game carrier

most famously (locally), at the final around of a tournament before sullest against the gencol special

Wow, that is really bad flying and target priority on the Imperial part. Yavaris would have been dead for at least one turn already against me. And then your B-wings would have been helpless.

oh yes

woe is me that I now must fear the magic catcus' extra fast GSDs that somehow breach the maximum speed allotment and can somehow whether the firepower that the mere layman's GSD cannot

the only thing that's defenseless in this scenario is imperial capital ships without squadron support. There is literally jack and **** you can do about B-wings without that

Except blow up Yavaris and then fly away. Poor old B Wings are left eating dust then.