I'm working on a list for an upcoming tournament, and I had kind of planned to include a 37 point Vessery, with Mk. II and Wired (or alternatively Crack Shot or Veteran Instincts). The list will also include two other aces with the action economy to have a target lock at almost all times. Seems fine and dandy, but then I got this sneaking suspicion...is Vader just a better choice?

For 37 points he gets ATC, Engine Upgrade and Predator. Compared to Vessery he has better PS, better repositional actions and comparable firepower, at the cost of a significantly worse dial and the loss of a shield. In what situations is Vessery the better choice?

Oh, I'm probably going to run him anyway, but I'm curious as to how silly a choice that is.

Vader is more reliable, his dial is not significantly worse because he can use his turns without problems.

Vader will be just as good or better than Vessery in almost any situation, sadly.

I love Defenders as much as anyone, but I get a little uneasy running them without Cannons. I feel like those really play to the Defender's dial strengths. Without a cannon, they don't really have an edge over an ace of the same price.

I've run PTL Rexler without a cannon being able to get his ability off reliably offsets not having a Canon.

And I've run vessery alongside Vader and stele to great effect with no cannon.

Vader is really good with ATC but vessery with others TL for him is 100% joust efficient and he can turn around easier than Vader.

But why not both?

I'm not saying it wouldn't work, but Vessery and Vader have similar offensive weaknesses, they're both great at chewing on big targets, but not so great at hitting targets of opportunity. So against 2-3 ship lists, the duo would be great, but against larger lists, you're going to see some loss of efficiency as Vader kills the target before Vessery can shoot, or it becomes impractical for both ships to go after a single target.

Usually that's more stele's problem as instead of stripping shields the other two just out right kill it.

Compared to Vessery he has better PS, better repositional actions and comparable firepower, at the cost of a significantly worse dial and the loss of a shield. In what situations is Vessery the better choice?

If you think that Vader has the worse dial, then you've mastered the Defender to the point of it being a real race.

And so, it comes down to the rest of your list, and to how you're building the ships in question.

I WILL say that I think Vader with Predator is simply not as good as Vader with Lone Wolf.

Even if you're in the position where Predator is re-rolling 2 dice, you're in a position where you'll want the added defenses anyway. It simply becomes a matter of whether you can keep your ships properly separated while concentrating fire, which is fairly easy with your multi-ace repositional aspect.

What is the 2 other ships TOing for Vessery? Are they really reliable to give him the TL? That's pretty much the most important part.

Defensively speaking, Vader has an edge over Vessery: He can barrel roll and boost to dodge arc, act at PS9 so he move late and shoot soon, and in case of emergency can take a F+E for defense.

Offensively speaking, they are pretty similar, as long as Vessery has someone TOing for him. If you want to give an edge for Vessery, give him a cannon for offense or control, but then you are paying more for him so should be getting more.

So, from a min-maxing point of view, you are better with Vader. How much you think you can exploit the White K-Turn to make up for it is up to you.

Now tactically speaking. What do you expect and what can you actually counter?

If you think you might go against some arc-dodger like Soontir or Whisper, Vader with his high PS, high maneuvrability and a little Initiative bid will help you have an edge against them.

If you are expecting big ships with lot of hull, Vader with his automatic Crit might help you tear them up.

So again, without knowing the rest of your team, Vader will serve you better, if you are good at the arc-dodging part of the game.

But, that's not to say that Vessery won't be effective. He will still pay for himself. So if at first you wanted to go with Vessery, I say **** min-maxing and netdecking and go with Vessery!

I've run PTL Rexler without a cannon being able to get his ability off reliably offsets not having a Canon.

And I've run vessery alongside Vader and stele to great effect with no cannon.

Vader is really good with ATC but vessery with others TL for him is 100% joust efficient and he can turn around easier than Vader.

But why not both?

Because I can't find a way of squeezing Vessery, Vader and Redline into the same list.

The list I want to try includes Redline and PTL Omega Ace. There's been a lot of pancakes, Decimators, Hound's Teeth and Ys in my meta lately, and overwhelming a single target early seems like the way to go. The idea is to have Redline strip shields with plasma torpedos and follow up with a couple of crits from Omega Ace (who will also turtle up or arc dodge if necessary). I was thinking an Advanced or Defender could fit in as an allrounder. In this particular list it is possible that Stele is the real alternative to Vessery, seeing as he can shoot after Redline, and there are obvious advantages to an all PS7 list. Another alternative is of course to go Redline/Stele/Alozen, to maximize crit potential.

Vader just seemed like the obvious comparison because of the similar cost. Like I said in the opening post I'm curious as to when (in both lists and situations) Vessery would be preferable to Vader. Sad to see it seems consensus is leaning towards "never".

I'm not saying it wouldn't work, but Vessery and Vader have similar offensive weaknesses, they're both great at chewing on big targets, but not so great at hitting targets of opportunity. So against 2-3 ship lists, the duo would be great, but against larger lists, you're going to see some loss of efficiency as Vader kills the target before Vessery can shoot, or it becomes impractical for both ships to go after a single target.

Like a lot of people said, it depends on the rest of your list. I've been using Col. Vessery with 2 TIE FO's and a Tie Advanced (usually Maarek Stele). You can also go with 4 TIE FO's instead of the X1. With that many TL's around, Col V gets targets of opportunity.

What I find necessary is to have at least 1 high PS ace. Col V with VI isn't enough. You need to hit those Phantoms and help reposition yourself vs. Bro Bots and Soontir Fel. Either that or something that can punch through a lot of Agility (massed shots or HLC).

In the OP's list, I'd probably go with Vader as he can deal with the things in the list that Col V. might have a hard time with. Two other ships to get his TL's is not enough in my opinion. Then again, if there are not a lot of ships in your meta area, it might be OK.

The problem that comes up with Vader, though, is the giant bulls eye on him. I can see a lot of people aiming to take him down fast. I think there are options for all of them, but finding the list and play style to fit you and your meta will take practice.

Vader just seemed like the obvious comparison because of the similar cost. Like I said in the opening post I'm curious as to when (in both lists and situations) Vessery would be preferable to Vader. Sad to see it seems consensus is leaning towards "never".

I don't know about never. Its true that at 37 pts, Vader is probably superior to Vessery. Or even at 36 pts. But if you have room to slap a cannon on Vessery, particularly HLC, that changes things quite a bit, because then Vessery becomes better at dealing damage, at least at Range 3 and maybe Range 2 as well (while Vader is probably still better at range 1).

Another thing to consider: with the extra shield, Vessery is better at surviving against twin laser turrets, so if that is a thing in your area, it might also tip the balance in favour of Vessery

What is the 2 other ships TOing for Vessery? Are they really reliable to give him the TL? That's pretty much the most important part.

Defensively speaking, Vader has an edge over Vessery: He can barrel roll and boost to dodge arc, act at PS9 so he move late and shoot soon, and in case of emergency can take a F+E for defense.

Offensively speaking, they are pretty similar, as long as Vessery has someone TOing for him. If you want to give an edge for Vessery, give him a cannon for offense or control, but then you are paying more for him so should be getting more.

So, from a min-maxing point of view, you are better with Vader. How much you think you can exploit the White K-Turn to make up for it is up to you.

Now tactically speaking. What do you expect and what can you actually counter?

If you think you might go against some arc-dodger like Soontir or Whisper, Vader with his high PS, high maneuvrability and a little Initiative bid will help you have an edge against them.

If you are expecting big ships with lot of hull, Vader with his automatic Crit might help you tear them up.

So again, without knowing the rest of your team, Vader will serve you better, if you are good at the arc-dodging part of the game.

But, that's not to say that Vessery won't be effective. He will still pay for himself. So if at first you wanted to go with Vessery, I say **** min-maxing and netdecking and go with Vessery!

Well you can also do what i did and take 3 advanced with AC, TL several targets at range three them vessery has a choice of targets then the advanced use defensive actions and pile on the damage.

They eat low agility ships alive and even on three dice there's a decent chance for damage to get through.

Another thing to consider: with the extra shield, Vessery is better at surviving against twin laser turrets, so if that is a thing in your area, it might also tip the balance in favour of Vessery

I disagree. Vader has the ability to focus + evade to avoid getting hit as often and can boost and barrel roll into range one to deny shots. Either of those things is likely to be more effective than one extra shield.

There is a thread of mine on the front page right now that shows that even with a hypothetical title that grants a free focus and a price discount, Vessery is still worse than Vader.

Since that title doesn't exist, there is no contest. Go with Vader; the evade makes up for a lot.

Well you can also do what i did and take 3 advanced with AC, TL several targets at range three them vessery has a choice of targets then the advanced use defensive actions and pile on the damage.

They eat low agility ships alive and even on three dice there's a decent chance for damage to get through.

Don't worry, I already know how to maximize Vessery ability. I did take him without a cannon in a Store Championship and finished first. But the OP asked if he should take Vader or Vessery, not to change his whole team to make Vessery better. The rest of the team was already settled.

In all fairness, even though Vessery is one of my favorite pilot, Vader is the safest choice most of the time. But that doesn't mean that Vessery is a bad choice. Hence why I suggest going with the one he wants to and forget about min-maxing.

I've run PTL Rexler without a cannon being able to get his ability off reliably offsets not having a Canon.

And I've run vessery alongside Vader and stele to great effect with no cannon.

Vader is really good with ATC but vessery with others TL for him is 100% joust efficient and he can turn around easier than Vader.

But why not both?

Because I can't find a way of squeezing Vessery, Vader and Redline into the same list.

The list I want to try includes Redline and PTL Omega Ace. There's been a lot of pancakes, Decimators, Hound's Teeth and Ys in my meta lately, and overwhelming a single target early seems like the way to go. The idea is to have Redline strip shields with plasma torpedos and follow up with a couple of crits from Omega Ace (who will also turtle up or arc dodge if necessary). I was thinking an Advanced or Defender could fit in as an allrounder. In this particular list it is possible that Stele is the real alternative to Vessery, seeing as he can shoot after Redline, and there are obvious advantages to an all PS7 list. Another alternative is of course to go Redline/Stele/Alozen, to maximize crit potential.

Well, knowing the rest of the team and what you wish to achieve, I will go with your third choice: Maarek Stele.

I did try out Redline with Stele with the same idea in mind: Get the shield down with a Plasma Torpedo from Redline, then fish for crit with Maarek. In my team, I went with a Shuttle Emperor as the third wheel to help in defense, make sure that the Torpedo land or get even more crit with Stele, but I could see it work with Omega Ace too. Stele with PtL, ATC and MKII Engine served me well.... and some clusters and FCS on Redline too. Definetly a team that I will try some other time.

Also, knowing that Vessery would be paired up with Redline and Omega Ace, I would definelty go with Vader. Omega Ace is PS7 and should use his TL almost every turn before Vessery got a chance to shoot. So, you are only left with Redline giving a TL to Vessery.

So, my choice would be:

1-Maarek Stele

2-Vader

3-Vessery

If you want to take Vessery, might I suggest switching Omega Ace for Lieutnant Colzet.

-Strip the shield with Redline as intended.

-Shoot it with Vessery with a F+TL

-Use Colzet TL at the end of the turn to flip one card to a crit.

There is a thread of mine on the front page right now that shows that even with a hypothetical title that grants a free focus and a price discount, Vessery is still worse than Vader.

Since that title doesn't exist, there is no contest. Go with Vader; the evade makes up for a lot.

In all fairness, even though Vessery is one of my favorite pilot, Vader is the safest choice most of the time. But that doesn't mean that Vessery is a bad choice. Hence why I suggest going with the one he wants to and forget about min-maxing.

I'm wondering, though, is there ANYONE that's worth the same points that's better to take than Vader?

If you want to take Vessery, might I suggest switching Omega Ace for Lieutnant Colzet.

-Strip the shield with Redline as intended.

-Shoot it with Vessery with a F+TL

-Use Colzet TL at the end of the turn to flip one card to a crit.

I can see that working well.

I've played a lot with Colzet actually, but never really got much use out of his ability. Eventually I ended up replacing him with Alozen, which has worked much better. I'll consider Stele though.

Redline has the ability to take FCS so needing to fire before him is not a priority. I think that would be a mean list for sure.

here is how i would build it.'

Vessery

calc

TIE mkII

Redline

FCS

PlasmaT

EM

AT

Ion Bomb

Omega Ace

PTL

TIE mkII

comes in at 99pts

One I will have to try for sure.

There is a thread of mine on the front page right now that shows that even with a hypothetical title that grants a free focus and a price discount, Vessery is still worse than Vader.

Since that title doesn't exist, there is no contest. Go with Vader; the evade makes up for a lot.

In all fairness, even though Vessery is one of my favorite pilot, Vader is the safest choice most of the time. But that doesn't mean that Vessery is a bad choice. Hence why I suggest going with the one he wants to and forget about min-maxing.

I'm wondering, though, is there ANYONE that's worth the same points that's better to take than Vader?

Depends on what you want. Fel can be a better choice if you expect a lot of turrets; Whisper if you want to be more offensive and block at the same time; I think that Stele is a better choice in the OP scenario... Really depends on what role you're really looking for and what you want to counter.

But I don't think there is a situation where Vader is a bad choice either. He's not the dark Lord of the Sith just because he butchered a couple of kids...

Also, knowing that Vessery would be paired up with Redline and Omega Ace, I would definelty go with Vader. Omega Ace is PS7 and should use his TL almost every turn before Vessery got a chance to shoot. So, you are only left with Redline giving a TL to Vessery.

Why not give Vessery VI so that the whole squad can move and fire in whatever order makes the most sense at the time?

Also, knowing that Vessery would be paired up with Redline and Omega Ace, I would definelty go with Vader. Omega Ace is PS7 and should use his TL almost every turn before Vessery got a chance to shoot. So, you are only left with Redline giving a TL to Vessery.

Why not give Vessery VI so that the whole squad can move and fire in whatever order makes the most sense at the time?

Vessery with VI is PS8, Redline and Omega Ace PS7. That's actually one of the reason why I favor Stele over Vader and Vessery.

The advanced has a worse dial than defenders?

There is a thread of mine on the front page right now that shows that even with a hypothetical title that grants a free focus and a price discount, Vessery is still worse than Vader.

Since that title doesn't exist, there is no contest. Go with Vader; the evade makes up for a lot.

In all fairness, even though Vessery is one of my favorite pilot, Vader is the safest choice most of the time. But that doesn't mean that Vessery is a bad choice. Hence why I suggest going with the one he wants to and forget about min-maxing.

I'm wondering, though, is there ANYONE that's worth the same points that's better to take than Vader?

No, not really. Depends on the list, but no. ;-)