So, this ever present problem in all games about Star Wars. The move power, and the multitude of ways it can be abused.

I read through a lot of threads here on the forums, and it seems everyone is pretty much agreed you can affect people as well as objects.

Good suggestions on handling the power as well, lifting someone and dropping them will do the "force throw" damage regardless, for a classic "force push" you need the "force throw" and strength 1 upgrades, and then it only goes to short range without more range upgrades. Three force points provide enough of a barrier that this cant really be done a lot until later on when the PCs become stronger.

Problem is someone just lifting a character into the air and holding them there though. So, this guy has a lightsaber right? I just, lift him and let him hang. My buddies can shoot him with their blasters.

End of powerful npc villain, who cant even run away. In general, this becomes a problem whenever someone tries to escape, and the "move" power user just goes "nope". An oppsed check is reasonable of course, discipline vs athletics, discipline, resilience, whatver makes sense in the situation. Players usually make sure to have good dice though, so that is by no means much of an issue.

Another issue is, a bridge/chasm/ledge. Just use basic move with one strength upgrade, and there they go. Bye bye!

Also, why ever use Enhance? You can just lift yourself with move. That easy.

Ideas? Thoughts?

Holding the target helpless is what Bind is for.

Enhance is still valid because eventually you can make the jump as a Maneuver to Medium Range for 2 pips.

You would need 3 Pips (Base, Strength, Range) under Move for the same as an Action.

The force chapter does encourage creative uses of force powers, but not creative uses for force powers just to do exactly what another force power already does. The GM is given the responsibility of deciding where this line is.

In other words, if you want to use "move" to replicate the effects of "bind", then the GM should call for a use of Bind.

If you want to use "move" to force leap then the GM should call for a use of Enhance.

Using move to 'force leap' others seems like a creative use of Move.

Using your example of using "move" to "bind" a lightsaber user so your buddies can just shoot him is clearly covered by Bind.

However, move does let you disarm someone, so you could disarm the lightsaber user and let your buddies attack them (negating the lightsaber wielder from using Parry/Reflect).

And if you have The Force Is My Ally (letting you use a Force Power as a Maneuver) you can disarm the opponent AND bring their weapon to you in one turn.

Or it seems perfectly reasonable that if the Move power Discipline Check generated a Triumph or a bunch of Advantage you could pull the weapon to your own hand as part of the disarm.

Leaving the interpretation of whether or not Move can hold somebody in the air indefinitely to somebody else, I will say that, if what you say were the case, Move doesn't paralyze the target. There's nothing that says the nemesis can't retaliate with his own Force push, or Saber Throw, or Unleash, or whatever he has.

Two other things. First, the importance of combat encounter design. Pitting one enemy against the PCs is only going to end one way, unless the PCs are dumber then a sack of ball bearings, no matter how powerful you design the nemesis. Confront them with the nemesis, a couple of rivals and a minion group or two, and the party is going to have a time. Also, which might seem a little like a below the belt punch to some, the books mention giving the nemesis multiple turns in a round; use this even if he has a group of mooks to back him up.

The second thing is "flavor". Enhance is Force speed and Force jump, along with all the other fancy-dancy physical things Force users are able to pull off that seems superhuman. Move is telekinesis. It's not about the optimum output, it's about creating a character and telling a story, taking a power that fits the flavor of the character.

Also, I never let my players lift THEMSELVES with Move. Other characters, sure, but the user cannot lift them-self. That's been a standard and staple of Move through every incarnation of the Game.

If it's not RAW, then it's at least RAI to me and how I always run it.

Problem is someone just lifting a character into the air and holding them there though. So, this guy has a lightsaber right? I just, lift him and let him hang. My buddies can shoot him with their blasters.

I agree, Move feels wide open, and every table will have to find what works best for them.

For, honestly somewhat arbitrary, metaphysical reasons, I'd disallow that kind of thing with Move, even go so far as to say that Move can't be used to restrain or casually move living/sentient creatures. Sure, you can knock them around (force push/slam/wave, etc), but it's momentary and there's little control, even with that last Control upgrade. If you want to restrain someone, you need Bind, and by canon it does seem to be a "separate step" (usually towards the dark side).

If the target is willing, or unopposed, then maybe you could allow Move, but I can't think of a scene where it wasn't a major effort, except maybe Mace in TCW on Ryloth when the plasma bridge dropped and he had to save the two troopers...but then the purple dude probably has a pile of dice to work with and is plenty familiar with Bind.

The pseudo-metaphysical rationale I'd use is that living creatures, as hubs of Force creation, are a lot harder to get a grip on. Bind represents another level of knowledge to work through that barrier.

Another issue is, a bridge/chasm/ledge. Just use basic move with one strength upgrade, and there they go. Bye bye!

I'm not sure that's an issue...Maul did it to Obiwan, which led to an interesting scene...

Problem is someone just lifting a character into the air and holding them there though. So, this guy has a lightsaber right? I just, lift him and let him hang. My buddies can shoot him with their blasters.

End of powerful npc villain, who cant even run away. In general, this becomes a problem whenever someone tries to escape, and the "move" power user just goes "nope". An oppsed check is reasonable of course, discipline vs athletics, discipline, resilience, whatver makes sense in the situation. Players usually make sure to have good dice though, so that is by no means much of an issue.

I don't think the rules technically allow this. Move allows you to force an object (or person I guess) from one range band to another. It does not apply either the Staggered, or Immobilized condition to the target. I suppose a Triumph might be allowed to, but it's not organic to the move power.

So per RAW they lift him into the air and on his turn he simply spends a maneuver to move as normal to get down. How is narrative driven of course. If he's a force user he might just force himself back down safe and sound, if he's not perhaps he just grabs onto a nearby roof and swings out the the players grasp. Perhaps he just activates his jetpack and flies away... or ascension gun, or whatever.

Of course it's possible he likes it up there. A nice high open position where he can see the force user lifting him with no obstructions... lots of reasons to give him boosts on a ranged attack check there, and don't even start on grenades...

Also just as a side note, if we do assume he's got a lightsaber then he likely also has Reflect and possibly superior reflect. Note that as an out of turn incidental it's nearly impossible to prevent someone from using this ability as long as they are conscious and holding a lightsaber. If he's a Rival or Nemesis then he's probably got ranks in Adversary, so every shot you take at him could easily come screaming right back at you....

Yes you can use move to lift a person into the air and leave them there.

It also happens to require as explained in the book strain and or committing a force die.

Can the person break free?

Yes its either a Discipline or Athletics vrs Discipline check to break free.

For inanimate objects yes. Without the immobilized effect though there's tons of options for negating the power.

Some good discussion so far, but it does seem there are different takes on the matter. Some think "holding in the air wouldnt work without immobilization or the like, others think it should work just fine just with an opposed check, some strain and comitting points.

@DarthGM, I think the same, though one of my players immediately countered with; "

EH, I'm not actually lifting myself, I'm lifting either my belts, or my clothes! Or, you know if you really wanna I can just stand on a crate and lift it to float."

In one way I see his point, even if it creates a whole world of issues. The argument, extended, can be used to say "Why wouldnt I be able to lift an AT-ST just because there are people inside? Its exactly the same thing as lifting someones clothes or belts with them in it".

The problem with the "now I can float" thing, is that at its strongest, someone could suddenly move to extreme range with just one action. Which is... pretty darn rediculous.

Thoughts?

Wrt lifting oneself by their own clothes...after smacking the player with a wet fish, I'd say that in all the media there is an implied grounding required when Move is used. When they pull things from below, their back is hunched and straining; when they try to hold things above themselves they are pressed by the mass. All the Force really does is extend your reach and allow you to handle bigger things. So you couldn't fly with the Force any more than you could if you yanked on your socks with your hands.

"Have you ever seen it done in Star Wars before? No, Trine isn't Star Wars."

Other than manipulation of small objects or sudden bursts of, er, force, using telekinesis on human-sized (silhouette 1) objects or larger has generally been a matter of intense focus. Sure, Yoda lifted the X-wing, but not while doing something else, or fighting a dragonsnake, and he had centuries of experience. Luke, one of the most prodigious Force-sensitives in existence with the training of Yoda, didn't do any of things, and had to focus a great deal to perform it, and didn't even. I image being able to levitate would have help a bunch with the Rancor, or at the sarlacc. I think many people, especially gamers (electronic or tabletop) greatly undervalue what it takes to pull off Force telekinesis.

I would say, always try to appeal to a player with the story first. Ask them if they think it's within the spirit of Star Wars itself.

Also, come to think of it, isn't there a sidebar in the Force chapter that discusses opposed Force rolls?

AshesFall, on 16 Oct 2015 - 09:53 AM, said:

Some good discussion so far, but it does seem there are different takes on the matter. Some think "holding in the air wouldnt work without immobilization or the like, others think it should work just fine just with an opposed check, some strain and comitting points.

@DarthGM, I think the same, though one of my players immediately countered with; "

EH, I'm not actually lifting myself, I'm lifting either my belts, or my clothes! Or, you know if you really wanna I can just stand on a crate and lift it to float."

In one way I see his point, even if it creates a whole world of issues. The argument, extended, can be used to say "Why wouldnt I be able to lift an AT-ST just because there are people inside? Its exactly the same thing as lifting someones clothes or belts with them in it".

The problem with the "now I can float" thing, is that at its strongest, someone could suddenly move to extreme range with just one action. Which is... pretty darn rediculous.

Thoughts?

I will just like to remember you that the GM always have the final word. This is one of the first rule of the contract between players and GM. So if you dont agree with stupid idea like "I should be able to fly because i lift my clothes", your "no" should end the arguing.

I would personally allow the flying on a crate if the player can lift a size 2 object, but I will make it really exhausting on the long term

On the other questions: dont understimate opposed skill check. There is alway a chance a PC fail even with some ranks in discipline, so your Némésis isn't alway toast. Plus if you find the players abuse to much of the force, show them how it is fun by throwing their PC in the air with your own Inquisitors.

Yeah, there is, would probably be one way to handle it.

Tbh, at this point I'm not much concerned with the player, I just want to have a good, structured and reasoned "how it works" for the move force power.

So far I've got;

Can move objects, many and with fine precision with upgrades, fairly slowly (though with greater speed as "range"
Increases) but mostly with a "careful" theme to the movement. Can let said objects "hang" or "keep moving over turns" with the investment of a force point and strain expenditure over time.

Can blast objects or people away "force push/throw", different range or amounts and possibly several with different upgrades. Always does the damage listed per silhouette (even if "dropped" from height), if affecting a person is always an opposed check for rivals or nemesis. Blasting a person off a ledge or bridge requires triumphs or a lot of advantages.

Issues remaining;

Even if thematically you cannot for some reason "grip" a person to move about aside from the short push/throw, if you can lift a vehicle with beings inside, you should logically be able to lift them by their belt or armour or whatnot. Not a big fan of that, allows way too much strange stuff. Perhaps in game living beings are sort of slippery and hard to grip in the "feel" of the force? That slipperiness extends to their most personal space, such as worn items, allowing only the crudest of manipulation (yanking a blaster from someone works for example, no fine control or "grip" required for more than a second - Edited for clarity).

Then there is the issue with standing on a crate or something larger (now beyond personal space) and lifting. This would allow an entire group to travel past obstacles with ease, or a character to get from 0 to extreme range in one round. Thematically it sort of makes sense, but **** its overpowered. Any thoughts here?

Zero to extreme range in a single round. That's about a mile/2 kilometers (or more) of movement in about a minute of time. That means accelerating from 0 to 60 in a few seconds atop of an unstable platform with no restraints or handholds. Daunting Coordination check, at least, for everyone.

It's one thing to shunt an object at that speed. It's another to shunt an object while sitting on it.

There are definitely cases of Jedi lifting a person in lore, so that's not outside the realm of possibility. Lifting clothing to get around lifting a person might, you know, just rip, or you can rule that because they are wearing the clothing, you are still attempting to lift a person, so they have to roll to move that person, otherwise they are trying to move a sil 0 object anchored by a sil 1 object. And even if they somehow do lift a suit of armor with a person inside, that still leaves the occupant able to fight back, making it an opposed check. Even better if it's an Inquisitor, who can retaliate with his own Force attack (it was a thing that happened in Jedi Academy).

I'm pretty sure yoinking weapons is within the capabilities of Move as written.

After thinking while supposed to be studying (OFC the best time to think about rp stuff) I think I've figured out how I want to handle this. Lifting yourself, or others, with "move" while they are standing on something should be possible, but really hard.

Something like this:

The object used for "moving transportation" must be at least equal silhouette as the character "riding" it. For several people, a silhouette 2 object may be enough, or for large groups 3. You add up the Silhouette of the object, and all people transported to one sum, that is how much "force" must be expended.

Difficulty is 1+ number of range bands in (P). Dice are upgraded, by one if you're transporting yourself, and by an additional one per being beyond the first transported.

This means that transporting yourself on top of a large crate would require moving 2 silhouette, and moving to somewhere within short range would be (R+P) as a dice pool, moving to within medium (R+P+P) and so on.

Moving a group of say three individuals but not yourself would be silhouette 2 object, +3 silhouette for the people= 5 for force expenditure, and for short range (R+R), Medium (R+R+P), Long (R+R+P+P)

This makes it pretty damned hard, but still doable as a heroic type of thing.

What do you guys think? Should it be even harder? (An upgrade for each being transported for example?)

@Blackbird888: Definitely agree, if you go that fast there would be checks on behalf of passengers as well, and bad conditions would impose black dice to all checks. I think I'm personally going to go with not allowing use of "basic" move on people or their close personal "field" except for crude manipulation such as yanking something.

Thanks everyone, you've really helped me narrow down and define how to work with the move power

Moving to extreme range requires:

3 Range Upgrades

1 Strength upgrade

So thats 55 experience.

It also requires the player reliably be able to use 3 force pips which would require a force rating of 3 at least which is what another 125+ xp?

So people are complaining about 180+ xp to fly.

Force leap costs 50 xp to max out and for 2 pips allows you to jump to medium range as a maneuver.

Dont forget we talk about a silhouette 2-3 object with several silhouette 1 people on it, so we could consider the silhouette of the object increasing because of the weight added. For that you need 3 more strengh upgrades (45 XP) and you need to roll 1 more pip. Note that, as written, Move power dont ask for a skill check unless you want to hurl something at someone, just enought pips on a force power roll. Plus if it was at my table, I would ask for a roll to lift the object in the air, another one to move it at the range band you want, plus another roll if they want to go farther than extrem range. I let you decide how much strain you need to lift a silhouette 7-8 object for that much time.

So if you have a PC that is able to succeed at all that, you will have more to worry about than seeing a PC making the group fly..

Here's an interesting answer from Sam Stewart on the Move power.

I asked the question:

Helloo there! I have a query posed by a friend: is the Move power designed to allow the Force user (the one using the power) to fly? Barring that, can a Force user levitate something that he is standing on, and in *that* manner fly around? My take is that it allows the Force user to affect anything outside himself, but not his own body or things that he is standing on. That's what we went with, but I would appreciate any insight into the intent of the power's design! Thanks

And he answered:

So there you have it. Levitate, but with increasing effort and all due caution

Dont forget we talk about a silhouette 2-3 object with several silhouette 1 people on it, so we could consider the silhouette of the object increasing because of the weight added.

Not sure I agree with you here, I would only consider the largest silhouette in any situation, presuming it took into account smaller silhouettes within it.

It would really depend how much relative weight/mass the passengers added. But the differences between silhouettes 2, 3, and 4 are Speeder Bike, X-Wing, and Millennium Falcon (respectively).

I would have a hard time seeing how a couple people could "upgrade" the silhouette of any such object, but if there were 6-10 people just clinging on to the object, sure, that might warrant an upgrade. Not from silhouette 4 to 5, though.

So there you have it. Levitate, but with increasing effort and all due caution

Until I see it in canon ... not at my table.

minimum 35 xp (to be able to attack a person with something that can do minimum 10 damage) looks ok to me for such power, so overpowered? I think not, and its the force, its a powerful feet and should be feared, to move and attack with magic

minimum 35 xp (to be able to attack a person with something that can do minimum 10 damage) looks ok to me for such power, so overpowered? I think not, and its the force, its a powerful feet and should be feared, to move and attack with magic

Actually, the attacking people thing really isnt the problem. The problem arises out of the mechanical interpretation of the move power, allowing someone to effectively move another person, or themselves, from short/engaged range out to extreme range with a single action, with no regard for any intervening obstacles. Someone who can move themselves that far that fast would be able to move themselves above them.

The answer from Sam Stewart doesnt really seem to take the actual rules and upgrades of the power into consideration, so perhaps we should interpret that answer as "only outside of combat, as a "story" mode thing, and always slowly regardless of upgrades"? Inside combat, with the rules as presented on the move power, "extreme" flight and move would be entirely possible, and very rapid.

Dont forget we talk about a silhouette 2-3 object with several silhouette 1 people on it, so we could consider the silhouette of the object increasing because of the weight added.

Not sure I agree with you here, I would only consider the largest silhouette in any situation, presuming it took into account smaller silhouettes within it.

The added silhouette, at least for me, wouldnt represent so much the weight of each individual on the "object" as the fact that you are essentially balancing and counterbalancing several distinct objects on top of eachother, balancing the shifting weight, someone losing their balance on whatever they're standing on or just shifting their own weight, would be problematic.