That kind of list:

Assault frigate Mark II B 127pts

Akbar

Enhanced armament

Gunnery team

Assault frigate Mark II B 89pts

Enhanced armament

Gunnery team

Assault frigate Mark II B 89pts

Enhanced armament

Gunnery team

Probably the scariest thing about wave 2 , the only reasonable counter is a lot of bomber , I am not even sure if it is enough because the fire power of the fleet will be so huge that you might be tabled before bomber could get enough damage done.

"We cannot repel firepower of that magnitude"

How the tables have turned

Rebels should have brought some whales in RotJ ...

Then the Imperial Commanders would go like: "OMG they got the Guppies! Do they got Ackbar? Yes of course! And Enhanced Armament and of course Gunnery Teams. And we are sitting here with speed 0 because of direct orders from the Emperor and we can't even use our defense tokens! ... Its a TRAP!"

I always wondered why the Imperials were losing Star Destroyers at such a rate at Endor. Now I know... Speed 0 means you can't use defence tokens, Emperor. Noob.

The Empire needs an Enhanced Armament for the front (+ back) arcs + Gunnery Teams.

Our ships are completely outgunned.

The Empire needs an Enhanced Armament for the front (+ back) arcs + Gunnery Teams.

Our ships are completely outgunned.

I add Enhanced armament in my list because it is fun but it is not necessarily the best option, maybe I should trade them for a few A-wing to protect my ship vs enemy bomber.

Akbar by himself is fine because the constraint of having to shoot from only one arc (most of the time) is big as well as its price.

What is disgusting and clearly overpowered is Akbar + gunnery team. This is also why I think that the MC-80 is not that good with Akbar , the real deal is the AF +Akbar+gunnery team.

It is too early to tell , but if Akbar+gunnery team is as insane as it looks I hope it will get banned or at least get nerfed (for example you can't use Akbar if you fire twice from the same arc).

The Empire needs an Enhanced Armament for the front (+ back) arcs + Gunnery Teams.

Our ships are completely outgunned.

I add Enhanced armament in my list because it is fun but it is not necessarily the best option, maybe I should trade them for a few A-wing to protect my ship vs enemy bomber.

Akbar by himself is fine because the constraint of having to shoot from only one arc (most of the time) is big as well as its price.

What is disgusting and clearly overpowered is Akbar + gunnery team. This is also why I think that the MC-80 is not that good with Akbar , the real deal is the AF +Akbar+gunnery team.

It is too early to tell , but if Akbar+gunnery team is as insane as it looks I hope it will get banned or at least get nerfed (for example you can't use Akbar if you fire twice from the same arc).

ECMs could also be a worthwhile upgrade if you're looking for more flexibility with defense tokens. Or, if you're more offensive-oriented, HTTs or Xi7s offer ways to mitigate how your targets' defense tokens reduce all the damage from the red dice you're throwing. In either case, that will open up more points for some token fighter squadron cover (although with the new Intel squadrons, it will remain to be seen how token fighter screens work).

I feel pretty confident the Akbar gun line would actually get tabled by a proper carrier boosted comms fleet.

You can shoot red dice all day at nothing while squadrons shred you....

People get so myopic about what seems like a simple straightforward build.....

I feel pretty confident the Akbar gun line would actually get tabled by a proper carrier boosted comms fleet.

You can shoot red dice all day at nothing while squadrons shred you....

People get so myopic about what seems like a simple straightforward build.....

This does seem like the most straightforward solution: Vics/ISDs + Boosted Comms + TIE Bombers with or without Rhymer, or AFIIs/MC-80s + Boosted Comms + Bs/Ys/Sillies.

Or, in the alternative, a list with one carrier (an ISD I with Boosted Comms + Expanded hangers), 4-5 regular bombers, 3-4 Rogue bombers, and a couple boxing ships for the front of the gunline (GSDs/Raiders) could work, too. With some of the new units coming out, you could still have significant bombing firepower without needing to have more than one dedicated carrier.

That said, "tabled" might be too strong, as there's plenty of room for four Ackbarred-AFIIs with Gunnery Teams + [insert offensive upgrade of choice here]. Bombers are great and all, but that's still a ton of shields/hull to chew through in just six rounds, especially when your carrier(s) have a strong incentive to stay out of firing range for as long as possible...

How are the VSDs staying out of range of the AF's in this carrier example?

Speed 3 + Red dice brings them close VERY fast, and the mentioned 4 AF+Ackbar fleet can erase 1 a turn with ease once in range. 2 if the Imperial player is silly enough to allow the AF's to get Gunnery Teams working (i would never count on this however). And it doesn't take long for 400pts of Ackbar'd AF's to kill 300 points or less of VSD's, to say the least, even after probably losing 1 on the way in.

I think the Rebel carrier build has legs though. Faster carriers to play keep-away helps a lot, and against the sort of firepower in question AF's aren't noticeably less tough than VSDs (ie they also die in 1 turn quite often).

I do definitely think Bombers are the way forward, but i'm also feeling that combined arms will work better than just max bombers.

The sure thing is that this combo is the scariest among Wave 2 stuff, and this is what is going to define the meta.

If there is a solution to such disgusting combo it is probably the bombers, but if it's not enough I hope that FFG will react quickly.

How are the VSDs staying out of range of the AF's in this carrier example?

Speed 3 + Red dice brings them close VERY fast, and the mentioned 4 AF+Ackbar fleet can erase 1 a turn with ease once in range. 2 if the Imperial player is silly enough to allow the AF's to get Gunnery Teams working (i would never count on this however). And it doesn't take long for 400pts of Ackbar'd AF's to kill 300 points or less of VSD's, to say the least, even after probably losing 1 on the way in.

I think the Rebel carrier build has legs though. Faster carriers to play keep-away helps a lot, and against the sort of firepower in question AF's aren't noticeably less tough than VSDs (ie they also die in 1 turn quite often).

I do definitely think Bombers are the way forward, but i'm also feeling that combined arms will work better than just max bombers.

Well, they're not staying out of range if the AFIIs make a b-line for them. But since Ackbar encourages ships to fire out of their side arcs only, usually there's more of an oblique approach (at least in my experience), so that slows the Rebel advance down some. An imperial diagonal counter-deployment (instead of a face-off deployment directly across the table) can also prolong the engagement, and there are other factors like objectives, obstacle placement, etc. that could affect flight paths and such. I don't think there's a way to avoid being overtaken in six rounds, but pushing off ship-to-ship engagements until turn 3 is possible.

The boosted comms would help the imperial player to get some early damage in while the caps hang back. Coupled with Rhymer (and assuming no unassailable/un-Intel-able anti-squadron forces), the imperial player's effective range could easily reach well beyond half the board's width past the carriers (which is no small thing). Whether that's enough damage quickly enough depends on the choice and number of bombers, I guess.

The sure thing is that this combo is the scariest among Wave 2 stuff, and this is what is going to define the meta.

If there is a solution to such disgusting combo it is probably the bombers, but if it's not enough I hope that FFG will react quickly.

I agree it's the most obvious (or at least out-of-the-box-ready) combo in Wave II, although the Scout Shrimp + Gunnery Team + Ackbar probably offers more top-end damage potential (albeit on a more fragile frame, and at a much closer range). But I'm not sure it will remain quite the awesome force it appears to be in post-Sullust play, once more of the Wave II ships hit more tables. Bombers certainly seem like a natural counter. Perhaps the more obvious counter is to attack Ackbar ships from their front arcs (or vulnerable back arcs), especially if the Ackbar gunline isn't deployed in a way where the side-arcs cover these blind spots (hard to do, even with these wide side arcs, unless some sort of echelon formation is employed). That would force the Ackbar ship into choosing whether to use Ackbar's ability, or whether to shoot at the ship that poses the greatest danger to it. The good of the fleet or self-preservation.

Ironically, Imperial ships seem ideally suited to do this. Glads + Raider Is can both take Expanded Launchers which, although pricey, upgrades their front arcs to seven (7!) dice with a CF fire command, five of which can be black. Ordnance Teams + a CF token (+ Vader, if you're going for overkill) offer higher odds to get the full damage potential (12 damage, or 10-11 with an accuracy or two) than anything available in Wave I, and even on a ship with advanced projectors, taking 8-10 damage on your shields will hurt tremendously. Raiders or Glads (especially with engine techs) also have the speed and maneuverability to get in front (or behind) a gunline ship, and a brace to survive one volley in the approach (or at least most volleys--the margin for error is much smaller for the Raider if the brace is blocked with an accuracy). Or there's the possibility of ACMs/APTs for more shield damage/face-up damage cards early on, that could really wreck the lead or tail ship in a gunline. Even an ISD might have the speed to get in front with a navigate command + proper initial deployment and gunline anticipation, and if it ever gains that position, I imagine panic will ensue.

Finally, I imagine we will discover plenty of other potent combos as we get more familiar with Wave II. Yavaris + B-wings wasn't exactly high on most people's radar when Wave I was initially spoiled, but as people got more confident in flying them, they definitely emerged as a potent combo. So I'm excited to see what we come up with this time around.

It's certainly not going to be unbeatable. I do think it will remain extremely strong and common though, not least because of it's relative simplicity to use. It's quite forgiving, easy to position and also rather durable.

can't do much against squadrons, though

maybe we'll finally see an end to "are squadrons X?" threads

Never. X will just change to something else.

Or it will change to "Are fighters (not bombers) underpowered??".

It's certainly not going to be unbeatable. I do think it will remain extremely strong and common though, not least because of it's relative simplicity to use. It's quite forgiving, easy to position and also rather durable.

Nothing is unbeatable, but that fleet looks really overpowered imo.

can't do much against squadrons, though

True but who cares, when you have so much fire power you can just table your opponent , and the most squadrons they have easier they are to table.

can't do much against squadrons, though

True but who cares, when you have so much fire power you can just table your opponent , and the most squadrons they have easier they are to table.

Akbar certainly cares when you're doing more damage at his optimal range than him

VSD-II should have a red more (and one blue less) in the front arc for what they cost, compared to the VSD-I.

This is a different topic but a base value of 4 reds in the front cone of a VSD would help...

can't do much against squadrons, though

True but who cares, when you have so much fire power you can just table your opponent , and the most squadrons they have easier they are to table.

Akbar certainly cares when you're doing more damage at his optimal range than him

The Ackbar fleet in question does 24 Reds at long range. Fighters aren't outdoing that unless you put carriers in range too, and carriers will melt scary fast.

That jumps to 48 Reds if you put TWO carriers in arc btw, which is just.....eugh.

And as soon as a carrier or two drops, the fighters lose a lot of power since the AF's will just move away from them.

It can totally work, but i dont think trying to just out muscle them and roll more dice is the best way to go about it.

can't do much against squadrons, though

True but who cares, when you have so much fire power you can just table your opponent , and the most squadrons they have easier they are to table.

Akbar certainly cares when you're doing more damage at his optimal range than him

The Ackbar fleet in question does 24 Reds at long range. Fighters aren't outdoing that unless you put carriers in range too, and carriers will melt scary fast.

That jumps to 48 Reds if you put TWO carriers in arc btw, which is just.....eugh.

And as soon as a carrier or two drops, the fighters lose a lot of power since the AF's will just move away from them.

It can totally work, but i dont think trying to just out muscle them and roll more dice is the best way to go about it.

that's 24 reds if you fly right into them (it's a trap?), which I would not recommend. The shoot, then move mechanic makes concentrating the entirety of a fleet on a target a non-trivial issue, even at long range.

fighters will easily outdo the individual ships. Just 64 points of silly bomber (4) will wreck an Akbared fattie (79 points) on damage output and even match or exceed a close range scout shrimp.

that's 4 blacks and 4 blues spread out among four attacks. Akbar can only compete with gunnery enabled, only not really because it can't concentrate firepower. Two half-dead ships are infinetly better than a wreck.

Also, all that's before calculating the damage of the commanding ship itself

for imps, rhymer and 5 bombers only runs you 61 points. alternatively, 4 Sprays run the same as a naked AFmk2-B and will bomb the living crap out of them with 8 blue dice without taking away from your command stack (navigate or repair away!)

Akbar players will soon learn to drop a ship to a cr-90 to squeeze in at least 4 A-wings, or they'll be in for a bad time

The thing about fighters is that you can go after one ship, at longer ranges. 2 VSDs can launch 6 bombers, if they are refitted for Long range comms, at about 9 distance, and have them all go for Ackbar's flagship. (Bonus for the fighters if he's in front of the line.) With Rhymer, an AFM2 can't get away from a second shot even without ships, so that's at least 12 black at a ship, where Brace is basically useless, same with Evade, and Redirect only helps a little. (That's 61 points, which leaves you enough for a second wave, and even if it's generic TIEs, that's another 6 Blue. A ship might be able to survive 12 Black + 6 Blue, but that's about 15 damage - It's going to be hurting. So for 109, less than the cost of Ackbar and his ship, I can force your fleet flagship to disengage (Even 2 damage transferred to the sides, 2 reduced from brace- that's down to 3 hull, likely with crits) or on above average rolls, simply blow up. (Oh, and there's another turn of 6 Blues, which should do about 3. (If it's more bombers, that's 5 Blacks instead, and you can basically kiss that ship goodbye, but that's a bit much on the bomber heaviness, however, if all ship AFM2 lists become a thing.... I'll probably run that a few times (if I can get enough fighters!))

For the Rebels, the range isn't as long, and while B-Wings would be nice, they aren't super likely, but Y-Wings are just a little slower. If you can get Bs in range, then Ackbar is hosed. Even a Corvette can throw up to 2 fighters at him at longer than Long range. (Using a Dial and Token.) However, Rebels have the option of doing Ackbar back, or Mon Motha, and evading hits.

Once Ackbar is gone, the fleet is in trouble.

I do think surgically removing the flagship is going to be FAR more important against Ackbar than it was in Wave 1. Fleets built around that extra firepower start looking a bit anaemic without it if they neglect other aspects (fighters, defensive tech).

Thats actually probably the best fighter idea i've seen yet.

the only thing you'll need to make a carrier for these types of long range bombers is Boosted Comms for the rebels. Imperials probably don't need them because you'll be bearing down on the opponent anyway.

For rebels, you get either the Mon Cal or the Afmk2-B to do the heavy lifting here. Garm is my personal favorite commander and he gives out some very useful tokens, so I'd assume his presence in these types of lists.

the two big carrier outfits I see are

Afmk2-B (72)

*Boosted Comms (4)

[76]

nice and cheap, nothing fancy. Range will keep you safe, hopefully. Otherwise, ECM takes you up to a less reasonable 83, but hey a brace is a brace. you can fit a lot of support with this carrier, including another fattie (possibly paragon) and two nebs (one being Salvation with Slaved turrets, for extra long range punch)

but really, it's cheap and flexible enough to go with any commander

Mon Cal Command (106)

*Boosted Comms (4)

*ECM (7)

*Defiance (5)

[122]

expensive, but with four Sillies it's basically the ultimate single activation you can buy in a rebel list. If no squadrons remain, for some inscrutable reason, popular then this guy will start nuking down even the larger Star Destroyers with minimal effort.

problem with this set-up is that it doesn't leave a lot of room for fighter support, because you're up to 382 with 3 Escort Nebs thrown in. You could knock down two of them to CR-90as and throw in the difference as A-wings.

a more flexible approach would be

Mon Cal Command (106)

*Boosted Comms (4)

*ECM (7)

*Independence (7)

[122]

with B-wings, instead

while it lacks the raw punch of Defiance, B-wings are far more flexible than sillies at engaging squadrons. With 3 Escort Nebs and Jan Ors backing them up, plus Independence making them actually useful against Akbar, you have a very flexible list @ 395 points.

Alternatively, if you can find 2 points you don't want, you can exchange an Escort for a Slaved Salvation to add more anti-ship power.

Even without wave 2, rhymer uncontested HURTS. Tie bombers are cheap, fast, and durable barring dedicated CAP in the area. Screw squadron commands- setup for your attack run (do some practice on your kitchen table, it's not that hard).

Ryhmer + 3 bombers. For the price of a corvette, you get a glad I broadside that's like, "honey rhymer don't care." If they get to shoot 3 times during the game, i think they were worth it. They will definitely remove a shield facing, if not crit the crap out of those guppies. Bonus is that in a conga line, they just keep coming to ya.