I flew it for the first time last night against a couple newer players and was astonished at how much damage and evasion flexibility the list can provide. This led the newer guys to question what could possibly beat it, to which I didn't have a strong answer for them.

So what beats the Sith Lords?

What's the list? I'm guessing Advanced and Deci?

Spock?

Soontir, Vader, omicron with palp.

Vader has predator and engine upgrade.

The same list, but with PS bid.

Vader + VI + ATC + EU, Soontir + PTL + AutoT + TC, OGP + Palpa = 98 pts

Having flown the list a lot myself (though with a different Vader loadout), I don't think there is a hard counter. Against TLT-wings you have Autothrusters and an easy time punishing bubbles; against fat turrets you have Autothrusters and ludicrous amounts of damage output; and against swarms and BroBots you have two high-PS arc dodgers. It's just a really strong list.

I think tactics comes into play a lot against it. Most of the people I've played it against have gone for the Shuttle first, and every single one of them has been utterly crushed. The only person who has resisted the bait and gone after the aces first is also the only person to beat the list.

The opponent simply cannot afford to give Vader and Soontir multiple rounds in which they can attack without fear of return fire. If the opponent does that, then it won't matter if he kills the shuttle or not, as he'll be stuck facing Vader and Soontir with a severely depleted list. That's not a winning position.

Suggest to them that they should try to fight Vader and Soontir first up. By doing that, they can push through the Emperor while all of their firepower is available (he is just one dice per round, after all), and they can force you to save/use him on defence (hurting your damage output). If they can kill the two aces then it almost doesn't matter how many losses they take, as a shuttle against just about anything in the late game ends badly for the shuttle.

It won't work every time, of course, but I firmly believe it gives you the best chance.

It's a brutal list, and a pretty flexible one too. I've played a close equivalent quite a few times in Vader, Juno and the Palpmobile and it can murder 2-3 ship lists. Hell, it murdered my 5 ship scum list as well.

There's no soft targets. Vader and Fel will merk anything if not dealt with quickly, and the Palpmobile has the hull and shields to survive multiple turns.

I think taking numbers would be the best bet, and trying to take out a ship as quickly as possible to further swing the numbers in your favour. I'd generally try to focus down Fel first, then Vader, and leave the Shuttle for last.

I've played this list quite a bit recently and beaten handily everything from fat turrets to arc dodgers to 4 Y-Wing TLT spam. I would agree that there is no hard counter to any permutation of this list. I've seen a wide variety from vader/fel, vader/mareek, and whisper/mareek. Even seen sensor jammer on the shuttle if the aces are cheaper. I will say that flying emperor's escort against another emperor's escort is really, really scary for both sides. No matter what type of emperor escort is being played that player is always wanting the final say in repositional advantage so loosing your initiative bid (depending on what type of escort you are using) can hurt really bad.

I will say that I am looking very much forward to running vader/inquisitor. He fits so perfectly!

I would guess that the very best option would be 4BZ or some form of a 4B list. 4BZ can burn down the shuttle in one turn if the opportunity presents itself. B's can take a surprising amount of damage. Shields hold up well against the crits that Vader and Emperor love so much. You've got to do a great job of spreading arcs and/or blocking but it can be done.

AC tempests won't be able to punch through all the green dice, I think 3 attack ships are needed. Khiraqterhtklh's are going to be eating crits for breakfast.

I would personally feel comfortable flying 4BZ list against Sith Lords. I've got as much experience flying them as any other list. Might have good luck with something like this though:

Farm boys.

it does have a hard counter, and that is the Feedback Swarm (7 scum Zs with feedback array), which absolutely eats the face off this thing.

Ooh, I like the sound of this list, sounds like just my type.

That said I'm not a bgi fan of the shuttle - any good substitutes for that?

Pilot Skill bid over 9 (or a way to boost multiple ships over PS9, looking at you Roark...)

4BZ

Swarms

Really, anything can beat it, but it helps a lot if you have higher PS or a huge firepower advantage. Kill order is usually going to be Shuttle->Vader->Fel

Ooh, I like the sound of this list, sounds like just my type.

That said I'm not a bgi fan of the shuttle - any good substitutes for that?

Not unless you want to lose Either Fel or Vader...

Only ships that can carry Palpy are the Shuttle and the Decimator in Empire. The shuttle is fine, and only gives 14 points to MoV if they beat it up but don't kill it.

Pilot Skill bid over 9 (or a way to boost multiple ships over PS9, looking at you Roark...)

4BZ

Swarms

Really, anything can beat it, but it helps a lot if you have higher PS or a huge firepower advantage. Kill order is usually going to be Shuttle->Vader->Fel

This is good advice here. Also if you have fast, high PS ships that can set up across the board from the shuttle after it's placed, who can rush it immediately and wreck it in 2 turns, you are in pretty good shape. Saw a game last night where a loaded out Boba and Bossk (with Engine upgrades) set up across from the shuttle, shot forward as fast as they could, boosted, and took out the shuttle without losing any health on either ship. The rest was simply just hunting down the aces who, without Palp support, were severely overwhelmed.

I think I'm going to try this tonite ...

Lambda-Class Shuttle: Omicron Group Pilot (21)

Sensor Jammer (4)

· Emperor Palpatine (8)

TIE Advanced: · Darth Vader (29)

Engine Upgrade (4)

TIE/x1 (0)

Sensor Jammer (0)

TIE Interceptor: · Soontir Fel (27)

Push The Limit (3)

Autothrusters (2)

Royal Guard TIE (0)

Targeting Computer (2)

Been seeing a bunch of tlt, and this sounds kinda fun to fly...

How about un-defensible damage? Vader crew, Proximity Mines, Autoblaster Turret, Connor Net, to name a few. Nice thing is that most of those don't need to be in arc, so the arc-dodging doesn't hurt you too badly either. If you can Prox Soontir, for example, that should buy you more time to kill either Vader or the Shuttle the old fashioned way.

lol, normal swarms do not beat this, that is terrible advice. sure the shuttle looks weak, but a good player using this will not even move the shuttle out of the corner until about turn 4 so you wont be able to kill it until the two killers are on your flanks. they will then arc dodge most of your ships and pick you apart with relative ease.

the reason the feedback swarm works so well is that it stops the arc dodgers being remotely effective. if you keep you Zs together they often need to kill two in a turn to keep themselves from taking 2-4 damage from the arrays, which is often enough to kill them. either that or just keep circling and doing no damage, which means the swam wins anyway.

To be honest, I think the only way to reliably beat this list is to use "The Dice Trick"©.

And yes, the capitalisation is necessary.

it does have a hard counter, and that is the Feedback Swarm (7 scum Zs with feedback array), which absolutely eats the face off this thing.

I'm thinking Sable's "Murder of Crows" list would do well here. It's the same as Feedback Swarm, but replaces two Z95s with Torkil Mux, plus Greedo and an Ion Cannon.

Considering the fragility and low number of attacks the two aces have, Oicunn should do very well. Especially Oicunn with his own Palpatine and Ion Projectors.

Paul Heaver's been running an Obsidian Swarm with Crackshot that should also be pretty solid against this.

The folks who are advising to get a higher PS are underestimating the power of Palpatine. He shines in situations where there are few dice rolls. If you bid higher so you can attack first, then your opponent can just burn Palpatine to provide evades. In order to counter his effect, you need to either take the dice out of the equation (Oicunn, Crackshot, Feedback) or just throw so many dice that he's only modifying one attack out of many.

Feedback Z's were already my most hated enemy. I'll be sure to try and deal with them quickly.

How about un-defensible damage? Vader crew, Proximity Mines, Autoblaster Turret, Connor Net, to name a few. Nice thing is that most of those don't need to be in arc, so the arc-dodging doesn't hurt you too badly either. If you can Prox Soontir, for example, that should buy you more time to kill either Vader or the Shuttle the old fashioned way.

AB and Conner Net work, but remember that Palpatine can affect Proximity Mine rolls. It does force you to burn him for the round, but you're probably not going to kill Soontir that way.

Ive been running a lot of Dash/Miranda and have beaten this build a few times without too many issues. The HLC is hard for Soontir to deal with. Vader dies really fast. They have a hard time hurting Miranda in the end game if you can kill one of the aces and the shuttle before Dash goes down.

Paul Heaver's been running an Obsidian Swarm with Crackshot that should also be pretty solid against this.

WOW!

Paul is so good he gives Elite slots to ships that don't have them

Obsidian Ties cant take crack shot...

EDIT: Ninja'd