I plan to introduce the Zeison Sha as a plot element in one (or both) of the F&D games I run, which would allow the PCs to potentially pick up one of their famous discblades.

Thus, I'd like to stat one up just in case, and I'd like some feedback.

ZEISON SHA DISCBLADE

Damage: Brawn+2

Crit: 3

Range: Short

Special: Pierce 1, Limited Ammo 1

Hard Points: 1

Encumbrance: 2

If the wielder is Force-Sensitive, they may roll a <Force Die> as part of the combat check, spending <2 Force Points> to have the weapon return to their hand.

If the wielder possesses the Move Force Power, the Discblade may be thrown as a Silhouette 0 object. dealing 5 damage on a hit. If so, the attack gains the the Discblade's Critical rating and Special Qualities, including the ability to return to the wielder's hand.

I based the weapon's profile on the Ascian Throwing Dagger (Fly Casual pg 42), increasing the weapon's damage (as it is a heavier weapon) and critical (as it is not built for precision like the dagger) while decreasing the Pierce rating.

Thoughts?

what skill is the combat check made with? Brawl would seem an odd choice for a ranged weapon.

I'd assume it's Ranged (light) as it's a thrown weapon.

Damage based on Brawn makes sense for thrown weapons.

I'm uncertain about the return thing being inherent in the weapon, but then again, it may not be that bad.

Ranged (Light) would be the most appropriate skill.

I don't agree with the returning quality. You essentially give the character the Saber Throw talent for free with this weapon. Instead, I would recommend changing it to: "This item may be used with the Saber Throw Talent"

What about the item returns on 1 advantage or a Destiny Point?

Were it me, I would get rid of the Limited Ammo quality all together as well as the returning quality. Instead, I would have it always return unless the character rolled 3 threat or a despair on their combat check.

well the idea is that a person with no Force training would just huck it like a normal throwing weapon using Ranged (Light), but someone with that training could direct it to return and thus get more out of it, since the blades are built with telekinetic manipulation in mind, especially for the returning aspect. I don't think tacking on a very limited version of the Saber Throw talent is too awful, since the Discblade as I've statted it here lacks most of the qualities, that make a lightsaber such a dangerous weapon (Breach, Sunder, etc), as well as the potential damage output.

Additionally, what do you all think of this as an added or alternate special ability, perhaps as a variation or attachment?

"If the weapon's wielder is Force-Sensitive, the weapon gains the Guided quality equal to its wielder's Force Rating"

Ultimately, the goal is for i to be an unassuming, ordinary weapon in most hands, but that a Force-user could get way more out of it, allowing it to zip around defenses and return as per the fantasy of a "magic boomerang" in the hands of someone with superb telekinetic skill. This is the Zeison Sha's equivalent to a lightsaber after all. It should be as awesome as can be allowed, at least until some kind of talent tree focused on telekinetic tricks and attacks is available.

(side note, this is starting to inspire me to build a telekinetic specialist talent tree)

Yeah, I'm thinking that giving it free Saber Throw is bordering on being too good as well.

I'd say the easiest method for how to really get mileage out of the weapon, just use the Move power and treat it as a hurled object, though perhaps with a caveat that the attacker can use their Ranged (Light) skill for the combat check instead of Discipline, and that if the attacker successfully uses the power (i.e. generates sufficient Force points to activate) then the disc comes back to their hand at the end of their turn. The attack would still have the Crit Rating and Pierce values, but the base damage would probably be about the same, as I don't foresee many folks that'd use this weapon having a Brawn above 3.

As a side note an Australian Aboriginals Boomerang is not actually intended to return after hitting the target, it's supposed to put all its energy into killing the target, if they miss though then they will come back toward the thrower making retrieval easier.

If that sounds interesting to you then you could allow 2 advantage on a failed attack roll to have the weapon return to the thrower, weather they have an FR it not. Then require the use of the Saber Throw Tallent to have it return on a successful hit.

oh i know the real-world boomerang isn't meant to fly back, hence the "magic" part of "magic boomerang"

anyway, I had actually wanted to tie the returning aspect to the Move power, but I wanted a Force user without move to get something out of it too, even if it's just a return, since the weapon itself is often imbued with the Force. I still don't think the Saber Throw aspect really makes the weapon OP, considering its other stats are nowhere near those of a lightsaber, and so allowing it to return with 2 FP as part of the combat check really just puts it in the same class as a light or holdout blaster most of the time. A holdout blaster you can't always "reload" reliably. Again, it's when you start mastering Move that you really unlock the thing's true potential anyway.

Still, a lot of what I want this weapon to do is probably going to be handled in some kind of dedicated telekinetics specialization somewhere down the road, and is more on the skill of the Force user than the construction of the weapon. Though I do want its stats to reflect that it was built with use as telekinetic ammunition in mind.

At any rate, playtesting is needed for sure. I can run some tests (and any outside tests would be appreciated as well), both with the "free Saber Throw" and "all the cool stuff requires Move" variations.

I'm actually playing one of the ZS adepts in a PbP I'm doing. The Ascian throwing dagger was good enough as-is for me to use it (though I actually took a pair of them because they are limited ammo). Should I need to haul one back to my hand in a hurry, that's where the Move power will come in handy; but with their short range, usually it's as quick to step over to where it fell, and then retrieve it as a maneuver.

I have a player that wants to be a Zeison Sha... He and I are currently going back and fourth about the Discblade, but one of the things that I wanted to focus on with this when I was developing the stats for it is that it is kinda like an Ancient Sword and an Ascisan Throwing Dagger combined. I wanted to give it mystical abilities that the player can grow into, and I wanted it to not replace saber throw. Saber throw has to be better to use in most situations than a raw Discblade. This is my attempt at a Discblade. I decided to go with the same damage code on the Discblade as with the throwing dagger primarily becuase +1 damage code is pretty much for anything smaller than a Sword (+2) and since a discblade, while being larger than a throwing knife, is smaller than a sword, it seemed to make more sense that it would have the lesser damage code. I hope that this is helpful for you, or you can ignore it.

Zeiden Sha Discblade

Discsaber : User of the Discblade can imbue the Discblade with the power of the force. That user may use the same attribute that they use for their lightsaber attacks when wielding the Discblade in Melee combat. The user may roll Force Dice no greater than their force rating with their melee attack and commit 1 force point to give the weapon so it can’t be sundered until the beginning of it's controller's next turn.

Force Channel : In order to channel the Force through a Discblade when throwing it, the Wielder has to have the first "Control" upgrade on the "Move" Force Power tree.

Telekinesis specialist : When a user throws the Discblade and they are able to channel the Force through the blade, that user may choose to add Force Dice no greater than their Force Rating to their combat Ranged(Light) skill test. If they choose to do so, they can spend 1 Force point to Imbue the Discblade with the force, granting the disc blade the range of the Move Force power and enabling the use of same attribute for damage that they would get for their light saber. If that user chooses to spend 1 more force point and a remaining maneuver that turn, then the disk blade will return to their hand. If the user spends 2 force points instead of 1 to retrieve the Discblade, then the Discblade will return to their hand as an Incidental. If the user spends 3 instead then it returns to their hand costing no action. If the user has Saber throw, then they can choose to use that ability over this one.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Zeison_Sha

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Discblade

The discblade was a small aerodynamic metal ring with handgrips and four protruding blades. A trained Zeison Sha warrior was able to use telekinesis to throw the weapon at great distances and cause it to return to his hand, even striking several targets in a single throw. This rare weapon could be imbued with the Force which made it resistant to lightsabers .

To the Zeison Sha, the discblade was more than just a weapon, it was a symbol of their telekinetic mastery. The discblade defined a Zeison Sha in the same way as the lightsaber defined a Jedi .

The ring is just a ring. The reason it flies so well and returns afterwards is all about the Telekinesis of the user. So if someone without Move powers were to wield one, it would just be a weird looking blade in hand. Instead of assigning all these abilities to the weapon, you should probably focus on making a Zeison Sha talent tree with these various abilities listed there. And each one says "requires a Discblade" where all the typical Jedi talents would say "requires a Lightsaber". And particularly when it comes to retrieval, it would say "requires a Discblade, and the Move power" and if the user doesn't have Move, then their blade doesn't come back.

IMO, best to just write the discblade in such a way that it interacts well with the Move power. No need to introduce homebrewed talents at this point. So instead of getting a damage of 5 and crit rating of -, it has 5 damage, Pierce 2, Crit 2 when thrown with the Move (Control: Hurl) power upgrade. And users can spend FP from Force checks to return the blade to their hand. Or something along those lines.

IMO, best to just write the discblade in such a way that it interacts well with the Move power. No need to introduce homebrewed talents at this point. So instead of getting a damage of 5 and crit rating of -, it has 5 damage, Pierce 2, Crit 2 when thrown with the Move (Control: Hurl) power upgrade. And users can spend FP from Force checks to return the blade to their hand. Or something along those lines.

You're introducing an entirely new Force tradition, why not make it a full tree? Nobody said you have to come up with all new and original talents for it. Since this is home brew anyway, you could fill it with Telekinetic, disc appropriate, combative talents. Just make sure to include the ones that say "requires Move power". But Zeison Sha aren't just "Jedi with discs", so they are going to need a bit more fleshing out before they're playable.

Part of the reason to not just make a whole tree for one fairly specific Force tradition is that's not how FFG has been designing the specializations.

While certain specs might lend themselves to a certain character type (Sage for Baron Do Sage, Armorer for Jensaari, Warden for Wardens of the Sky, any of the LS Form specs but especially Niman Disciple for a Jedi), none of them are explicitly the domain of a specific Force Tradition.

It's possible that with the Mystic or Consular book we'll get a spec that offers new options for the Move power in combat (granted, I'm leery of that because Move is already a very powerful combat option once you've invested enough XP into the power), but you can bet real money that it won't be tied explicitly to the Zeison Sha. The most we might see is the discblade in the equipment chapter of a future career book with a note of which Force tradition most frequently uses it, much like the Killian Rangers were mentioned in connection with the shield gauntlet in Keeping the Peace.

Plus, such a custom spec runs the risk of turning the character into a one-trick pony that's able to do one thing extremely well and without having to buy other specs to do so.

The reason for not home-brewing a whole talent tree is that you can get by just fine with another, already existing tree. The Warleader, Seer, and Hunter specializations all offer something for an aspiring Zeison Sha Warrior, not to mention the excellent Force Sensitive Exile. Thematically and mechanically, the FSE screams Zeison Sha: a society of self-reliant, accidental (then self-purposed) exiles from the wild world of Yanibar. (And if you want a more skillful Zeison Sha, why not start him off as an EotE or AoR character with the FS Exile tree? Assassin, Scout, Survivalist, Gunslinger, Tactician, Commando, and Sharpshooter can all be very effective choices; you just take any of those + the FSE and buy deep into the Move talent tree)

It's like if a player tells me he wants to be a starfighter mechanic, but there's no "Starfighter Mechanic" Specialization, so he asks me to please make one. And I say, "Well you've got Rigger, Outlaw Tech, Mechanic, Artisan for a Force-sensitive bent...any of these talent trees will get you going!" And I tell him that later on, if there comes a published tree that better encompasses the "Starfighter Mechanic" concept, we can talk about some redesign. But until that point, you already have plenty of great choices that are well-balanced and have the benefit of being thoroughly play-tested.

Same thing applies here. Just because we don't have "Zeison Sha Tree" doesn't mean you can't make a darn good Zeison Sha PC with the specs available. And if we later get a specialization that is even more Zeison Sha-esque, well, that's all gravy.

A discblade, being a single piece of equipment, is waaay easier to homebrew for now, and then adapt when we see it in some official published material.

Obviously, if one had their heart set on making their own specialization, they would be free to do so! The game should be fun, and it can be even more fun when you feel you've contributed significantly to it. But the problems inherent in home brewing something so nuanced (and potentially game-breaking) as a talent tree, not to mention the prospect of the tree being rendered obsolete by impending new official material; and all this combined with the incredible amount of well-tested and excellent specializations in the core rulebooks & splatbooks; makes it not quite worth it to me.

I guess my only concern is, as OP mentioned at one point... what if some random person picks up your disc?

Maybe they have a Force rating, maybe they don't. So far I haven't seen anybody suggest that the accuracy and the return ability should "require" the wielder to be Force sensitive, even though it's been implied. If you make it a weapon trait, then anybody who picks it up can get those abilities. Same thing happens for the Lightsaber abilities, except they usually keep it to Breach and Sunder. All the really cool tricks like deflecting blaster bolts, are talents you buy that just require you to wield a Lightsaber.

I'll admit, writing an entirely new talent tree is time consuming. But Kaosoe suggested ^ up there, you could take the current Saber Throw ability and either say this counts too, or replace that ability where applicable with "Disc Throw" instead.

Or make it a 5 point Force upgrade underneath Move / Control, that way you need to have learned the ability to hurl objects in general before you can hurl this particular object and bring it back.

Either way, I still think it should be mostly about the character's skill, training, and powers than it should be about the weapon. Otherwise you toss it to your mundane smuggler guy, and he runs around pretending to be Tron for a while. You haven't re-created the Zeison Sha's traditional Force guided weapon, you've made a D&D magical item.

Ranged (Light) would be the most appropriate skill.

I don't agree with the returning quality. You essentially give the character the Saber Throw talent for free with this weapon. Instead, I would recommend changing it to: "This item may be used with the Saber Throw Talent"

What about the item returns on 1 advantage or a Destiny Point?

Were it me, I would get rid of the Limited Ammo quality all together as well as the returning quality. Instead, I would have it always return unless the character rolled 3 threat or a despair on their combat check.

I disagree using the Saber Throw talent with a Discblade as you would essentially need to be one of the lightsaber specializations or Armorer. That doesn't match with the Zheison Sha being family honoring, telekinetic wielding, survivalists. I think a "Discblade Expert" tree so to speak would be the best way to go. That way you don't have to be a, official "Sha" to use it.

I guess my only concern is, as OP mentioned at one point... what if some random person picks up your disc?

Maybe they have a Force rating, maybe they don't.

So far I haven't seen anybody suggest that the accuracy and the return ability should "require" the wielder to be Force sensitive, even though it's been implied. If you make it a weapon trait, then anybody who picks it up can get those abilities. Same thing happens for the Lightsaber abilities, except they usually keep it to Breach and Sunder. All the really cool tricks like deflecting blaster bolts, are talents you buy that just require you to wield a Lightsaber.

What happens if an Ewok, skilled in Ranged (Light) for using bolas, picks up a blaster pistol for the first time in his life?

Not exactly the point I was trying to make

If an Ewok who is trained to use a bola, picks up a blaster pistol, they're both just ordinary devices. Neither one has magical properties to it.

If you put all the guidance and returning qualities into the disc, it basically becomes a D&D magical item. Anyone who wields it, whether it's Luke, or Han, or Wicket... can say "Look, it says it unerringly strikes it's target, and then automatically returns to my hand." Just like how Han or Wicket could pick up a Lightsaber and use it to slice through a blast door. Breach and Sunder are item qualities regardless of who wields it.

If you put all the guidance and returning qualities onto the character, and merely require that they wield the disc... Now you know it can't be used and abused. It requires the right person in order for those nifty tricks to manifest. Just like how only Luke could take back the Lightsaber and use it to deflect blaster bolts back at the offending stormtroopers. Try as he might, Han isn't going to be doing that.

What happens if an Ewok, skilled in Ranged (Light) for using bolas, picks up a blaster pistol for the first time in his life?

Not exactly the point I was trying to make

If an Ewok who is trained to use a bola, picks up a blaster pistol, they're both just ordinary devices. Neither one has magical properties to it.

If you put all the guidance and returning qualities into the disc, it basically becomes a D&D magical item. Anyone who wields it, whether it's Luke, or Han, or Wicket... can say "Look, it says it unerringly strikes it's target, and then automatically returns to my hand." Just like how Han or Wicket could pick up a Lightsaber and use it to slice through a blast door. Breach and Sunder are item qualities regardless of who wields it.

If you put all the guidance and returning qualities onto the character, and merely require that they wield the disc... Now you know it can't be used and abused. It requires the right person in order for those nifty tricks to manifest. Just like how only Luke could take back the Lightsaber and use it to deflect blaster bolts back at the offending stormtroopers. Try as he might, Han isn't going to be doing that.

Wait, what's stopping you from just saying "when wielded by a force sensitive being with the Move power, the weapon gains the following qualities:"? KtP already has weapons that won't function unless you have the Force, so why not just take it a step further?

That's what I've been trying to say.

Could giving it an "saber throw"-like attachment be a solution?

Which could have a 2HP worth. Saber throw by itself is useless unless you have a FR, though it limits itself to medium range.

I think the test is does saber throw equal Jury Rigged Autofire?

If not then its good.