The Scum Cloaking Device is unreleased, so I'm not sure this should be here yet but i thought i would ask since i know its going to come up once the card is released.

The illicit cloaking device reads as

"At the end of each round, if you are cloaked, roll 1 attack die. On a focus result, discard this card, then decloak or discard your cloak token."

and Stygium Particle Accelerator reads as

"When you either decloak or perform a cloak action, you may perform a free evade action."

End Phase rules read as

During this phase, players remove all evade and focus tokens assigned to ships and return them to the action token supply. Target lock tokens and stress tokens remain in play until certain conditions are met (see pages 11 and 16).

Some card abilities or missions may instruct players to resolve certain effects during the End phase. If this is the case, do so at this time.

After completing the End phase, the round is over. If neither player has destroyed all of his opponent’s ships, a new round begins, starting with the Planning phase.

It seems from the end of Phase rules the order of events is

1. remove tokens

2. Do end of round effects

3. check to see if someone has won if not begin a new round.

So if your cloaking device gets removed at the end of the round and you have the Stygium Particle Accelerator does the evade action you took get removed or does it stay?

What would allow the evade not to be removed at the end of the round like normal?

You could make a case that "at the end if the turn" must come after "during the end phase", so the token removal has already happened by the time the Cloaking Device burns out.

I'm not seeing anything in the Learn to Play, FAQ, or Rules Reference that states that End of Round effects happen in the End Phase or even what order things happen in the End Phase.

If that decloak happens after token cleanup then using SPA to trigger PTL would let Guri potentially have 2 Evade and 3 Focus tokens the following round.

The old rules cover the End Phase much more than the new ones do.

You could make a case that "at the end if the turn" must come after "during the end phase", so the token removal has already happened by the time the Cloaking Device burns out.

Maybe I am missing something obvious, but would it make a difference?

Yeah. If the forced decloak and the resulting evade action happen after the evade tokens have been cleared in the End phase, then the token is still there next turn. If not, then not.

What would allow the evade not to be removed at the end of the round like normal?

I was thinking it depends on the order in which events occur. If you remove all the appropriate tokens from the play area first and then do end of round effects seconded it would seem that you do not then remove all tokens again because it had already been done. Unless I'm mistaken?

Sorry, i was missing any reference to pilots or abilities that would carry the evade over so i was thinking either way the tokens are gone

There's no timing stated on when things happen in the End phase other than 'during'. But both the evade and focus action entries in the Rules Reference state that "All unspent focus/evade tokens are removed from ships during the End phase." And the End phase entry says the same thing.

So if you try and break it down to when things should happen, you're still going to be breaking those rules. There's nothing in the rules to suggest a strict order of timing that would enable a token to remain for the next turn. Anything in the rules that requires an order of timing, is broken down into Steps, like the Activation and Combat phases are. "Each ship resolves the following steps in order:"

Is there anything you can spend an evade token on during the End phase. Other than defending against an attack by Corran Horn, which happens before any of the other End phase events, none that I can think of. But if you're not getting attacked by Corran, then there's no timing restraints.

If you do the clean up first, and remove all unspent tokens, then roll for the Illicit Cloaking Device, possibly triggering the SPA, and thus gaining an evade token, can you spend it? I can't think of anything you can spend it on by that stage of the round, and as the rules state, all unspent tokens are removed. After all, this is all still happening during the End phase.

I think you'd have a hard time trying to argue that the token doesn't get removed during the End phase because of a 'timing' issue.

Cloaking Device doesn't say that it happens in the End Phase though. It says at the "at the end of each round". Are there any other cards with that same timing trigger? Every other end of round effect that I can think of has something like "end of combat phase", "beginning of end phase", or "during the end phase".

There's nothing in the rules to suggest a strict order of timing

Right. And according to the rules, when 2 things occur at the same time and there isn't a strict order they are supposed to happen in, then if the effects are controlled by different players initiative determines the order, and if they are controlled by the same player, the player gets to choose the order they happen in. Which completely covers what happens when you are supposed to do 2 things at the same time in this game.

There's nothing in the rules to suggest a strict order of timing

Right. And according to the rules, when 2 things occur at the same time and there isn't a strict order they are supposed to happen in, then if the effects are controlled by different players initiative determines the order, and if they are controlled by the same player, the player gets to choose the order they happen in. Which completely covers what happens when you are supposed to do 2 things at the same time in this game.

But that still wouldn't let you leave an unspent evade token on the table for the following round. Regardless of the order in which you do things, the rule would still stand.

It says that "players" (plural) remove all focus and evade tokens. If you cleared your tokens, then did the SPA free evade action, what's to stop your opponent following the rules and removing the token?

Cloaking Device doesn't say that it happens in the End Phase though. It says at the "at the end of each round". Are there any other cards with that same timing trigger? Every other end of round effect that I can think of has something like "end of combat phase", "beginning of end phase", or "during the end phase".

I'd like to think that's just weak wording on the card, but FFG are 'usually' a bit more careful these days which makes me wonder why they didn't just use "In the End phase of each round...". Is there a plausible reason for their particular wording? I don't know. I can't see any. I think if one of the FFG boffins had the SPA in mind when they were designing the CD, then the wording may have been different. Then again, it could be something as simple as space on the card for the text. Who knows for sure?

But, at the end of the round, the last thing we have is the End phase. When would you do the check otherwise? Once the End phase events have been done, you move to the Planning phase of the next round, so there's nothing after the End phase. And the CD clause doesn't trigger during the Combat phase, as that's not the end of the round. So it leaves little doubt as to the 'when'. By process of elimination, it must be during the End phase. If it was supposed to be outside or after the normal End phase events, it would say so, wouldn't it? Is that what they meant by "at the end of each round..." instead of referencing the End phase explicitly?

IMHO I think if you used SPA to place an evade token in the End phase (which I consider to include this mystery "at the end of the round" timing), it's just going to be removed immediately anyway. I haven't seen anything yet that would compel me to believe it would stick around.

It is sloppily worded, but absent a ruling to the contrary, I'm not sure how you interpret "during the end phase" (the timing trigger for removing focus and evade tokens) as coming after "at the end of the turn" (the running trigger for Cloaking Device).

If they want to make it clearer the easiest way would be to errata the timing text on Cloaking Device in the first Wave 8 FAQ.

It is sloppily worded, but absent a ruling to the contrary, I'm not sure how you interpret "during the end phase" (the timing trigger for removing focus and evade tokens) as coming after "at the end of the turn" (the running trigger for Cloaking Device).

If they want to make it clearer the easiest way would be to errata the timing text on Cloaking Device in the first Wave 8 FAQ.

The way I see it, they're one and the same. Is "at the end of the turn", actually at the end of the End phase? Or does it include the entirety of the End phase? Is it after the End phase? If so, then what phase is that? Outside of a cloaking device paired with SPA, does it matter at all?

I think the intent is for it to happen in the End phase. But if I'm wrong, I might be chewing on a hat.

Because it's such a one-off corner case, I doubt we'll see any form of errata regarding it. Maybe a FAQ entry. But then again, that's what I thought about the Nashtah Pup being the last surviving ship, and look how many times that one had to be addressed.

I've read the comments and I still don't have any better grasp on what to do. I agree with Parravon in that the intent is tokens get removed during the end phase, but if I base my argument on what i think FFG intended my opposition has every right to base his argument around his thoughts about FFGs intentions and I know where that road leads. I think this matters and I think FFG needs to have a FAQ on it.

Whats interesting to me and something I hadn't thought about till WWHSD mentioned it is SPA triggering PTL or experimental interface to boost, barrel roll, target lock or drop a bomb during the end phase. Which I think we can all agree are things that can be done.

Whats interesting to me and something I hadn't thought about till WWHSD mentioned it is SPA triggering PTL or experimental interface to boost, barrel roll, target lock or drop a bomb during the end phase. Which I think we can all agree are things that can be done.

I don't think you'll be using SPA to trigger Experimental Interface until either TIE Interceptors get an Illicit slot or something in Scum can take the Royal Guard title.

But point taken.