I had some time to kill while dinner cooked last night, so I tried to build an Imperial list given my expected Wave 2 toolbox...

I'm experiencing the issue of a lot of points being sunk into an ISD if I played one. I mean, I'm also seeing the same thing if I build a 3 VSD list as well, but at least I have 3 activations there.

I also feel like I need more GSD's. But I feel that way now pre-wave 2, so that's no different.

But I'm not an Imperial player predominantly... ::shrug::

I actually really like that idea. I'd go so far as to say, if it's a 5-5 and no one score dmore than 20 points, it becomes a 4-4.

the majority of the time the 4-4 wont change the outcome.

So here is a question for you gents.

You have 18pts, your Opponent has 15pts. He needs to atleast acheive a 7-3 victory to win. Knowing this, do you use it to your advantage. What is the difference/is there a difference between "not engaging" and I deploy on my back edge, I set my speed to 1, first turn I drop to 0 spd (pending Objectives) and because you have to win by a 7-3 margin of victory they have to come to you. You can literally lay a trap that is so obvious even Ackbar would be like "fucken really brah?" Is that not engaging or identifying a situation and putting yourself in the best position to achieve victory.

You guys mention Flames of War a lot. I haven't played since 1.5ed but If your the defender and find yourself in trenches and in defensive positions, would you abandon them to ensure your opponent has fun in a tournament?

Yeah. I think the real point is, in the extremely rare case (didn't happen to me at Sullust) someone simply moves to avoid you hoping for a 5-5, a disincentive might be called for. Maybe.

Don't take this as a request for war stories, but there are certainly examples out there where two players absolutely slapped the crap out of each other over the course of a game but no ship died. I can easily envision two 3-VSD lists only getting to each other on turn 5 and then not being able to finish a VSD off.

Like BergerFett says, there's plenty of situations where "running" (a poor term we're using to describe all evasion/refusal) is the best choice. I'm going to do my best to make lists from now on where that situation doesn't arise. Area control objectives like Contested Outpost help by providing both players a disincentive to running. I think you can run from almost all of the blue objectives save Intel Sweep and you can run from the red objectives. Not sure what to do there.

the majority of the time the 4-4 wont change the outcome.

So here is a question for you gents.

You have 18pts, your Opponent has 15pts. He needs to atleast acheive a 7-3 victory to win. Knowing this, do you use it to your advantage. What is the difference/is there a difference between "not engaging" and I deploy on my back edge, I set my speed to 1, first turn I drop to 0 spd (pending Objectives) and because you have to win by a 7-3 margin of victory they have to come to you. You can literally lay a trap that is so obvious even Ackbar would be like "fucken really brah?" Is that not engaging or identifying a situation and putting yourself in the best position to achieve victory.

Because in a tournament of any significant size, there will be other players who can catch you if they score well. I imagine that, in most tournaments of 8-12 players, the spread would be something like to 18,15,14,13. Going for a 5-5 in that scenario is risking the event because if the 3rd or 4th player blows their opponent away, they could end up with the trophy. It will be rare where a player can go into the final round unable to be caught. The only instances where I have seen it are tournaments with few players and the wins/byes are very unevenly distributed. It happened in my first Sullust tournament but the second, which had the same number of players, started the final round with three, perhaps four, players that were still in contention to take first. The MoV tables will also change when Wave 2 becomes official. That could have a signifigant effect on how these scenarios play out.

Yeah. I think the real point is, in the extremely rare case (didn't happen to me at Sullust) someone simply moves to avoid you hoping for a 5-5, a disincentive might be called for. Maybe.

Don't take this as a request for war stories, but there are certainly examples out there where two players absolutely slapped the crap out of each other over the course of a game but no ship died. I can easily envision two 3-VSD lists only getting to each other on turn 5 and then not being able to finish a VSD off.

Like BergerFett says, there's plenty of situations where "running" (a poor term we're using to describe all evasion/refusal) is the best choice. I'm going to do my best to make lists from now on where that situation doesn't arise. Area control objectives like Contested Outpost help by providing both players a disincentive to running. I think you can run from almost all of the blue objectives save Intel Sweep and you can run from the red objectives. Not sure what to do there.

Angry Dice Gods

or

We both play the slow approach

the majority of the time the 4-4 wont change the outcome.

So here is a question for you gents.

You have 18pts, your Opponent has 15pts. He needs to atleast acheive a 7-3 victory to win. Knowing this, do you use it to your advantage. What is the difference/is there a difference between "not engaging" and I deploy on my back edge, I set my speed to 1, first turn I drop to 0 spd (pending Objectives) and because you have to win by a 7-3 margin of victory they have to come to you. You can literally lay a trap that is so obvious even Ackbar would be like "fucken really brah?" Is that not engaging or identifying a situation and putting yourself in the best position to achieve victory.

Because in a tournament of any significant size, there will be other players who can catch you if they score well. I imagine that, in most tournaments of 8-12 players, the spread would be something like to 18,15,14,13. Going for a 5-5 in that scenario is risking the event because if the 3rd or 4th player blows their opponent away, they could end up with the trophy. It will be rare where a player can go into the final round unable to be caught. The only instances where I have seen it are tournaments with few players and the wins/byes are very unevenly distributed. It happened in my first Sullust tournament but the second, which had the same number of players, started the final round with three, perhaps four, players that were still in contention to take first. The MoV tables will also change when Wave 2 becomes official. That could have a signifigant effect on how these scenarios play out.

the majority of the time the 4-4 wont change the outcome.

So here is a question for you gents.

You have 18pts, your Opponent has 15pts. He needs to atleast acheive a 7-3 victory to win. Knowing this, do you use it to your advantage. What is the difference/is there a difference between "not engaging" and I deploy on my back edge, I set my speed to 1, first turn I drop to 0 spd (pending Objectives) and because you have to win by a 7-3 margin of victory they have to come to you. You can literally lay a trap that is so obvious even Ackbar would be like "fucken really brah?" Is that not engaging or identifying a situation and putting yourself in the best position to achieve victory.

Because in a tournament of any significant size, there will be other players who can catch you if they score well. I imagine that, in most tournaments of 8-12 players, the spread would be something like to 18,15,14,13. Going for a 5-5 in that scenario is risking the event because if the 3rd or 4th player blows their opponent away, they could end up with the trophy. It will be rare where a player can go into the final round unable to be caught. The only instances where I have seen it are tournaments with few players and the wins/byes are very unevenly distributed. It happened in my first Sullust tournament but the second, which had the same number of players, started the final round with three, perhaps four, players that were still in contention to take first. The MoV tables will also change when Wave 2 becomes official. That could have a signifigant effect on how these scenarios play out.

Squadrons, First off, thank you. Your general loathing of squadrons has people fielding them less and less. I am sure the forums contribute to this but things said on podcasts have more credibility than things read in forums. Its human nature, and as an ex-podcast host myself I totally, never ever, abused this.....ever. My rhymer ball loves being uncontested. LOVES it. Now lets talk about the Rhymer ball. I am in the firm belief that Rhymer + Chardonnay + VSD Title is not the optimal way to Run it. I run it with Rhymer, Howlrunner (oh oh here she comes), 2x Interceptors, 3x Fighters, 1x Advanced, and expanded hangar bays + flight controllers. First if they have fighters, I can have a lethal alpha strike with Interceptors, Fighters and (shes the) Howlrunner. If they do not have fighters, I can go in and ping the flanking shields on your ship. What this does, is negates or lessons the redirect defense token without needing an accuracy (saving it for the brace). It works really well, and 5-6 squadrons rolling 2 black and 4 blue dice hits as hard as a light cruiser, but is harder to kill do to them being squadrons. It takes practice but it works pretty well. Also, when plinking your opponent with 1 dice attack rolls you make them choose, Do I let my shield go to zero, or do I spend my redirect now..... it forces your opponent to make some decisions before your ship has even fired and lets you punish them for making the wrong one. Maybe their ship has no shields and rhymer hits a hit/crit.... now they are thinking redirect? brace? his ship hasn't even fired yet. I love it cinematically speaking and its been great at dealing with pesky rebel ships. Now add in Boosted comms and you can really reach deep with bombing runs. If they have a Jaina's light, or a Tantive 4, really anything with Leia. You can potentially hop the front wave of their ships and start bomber running, and 2 black and 3 blue dice will start to enable your ships to finish it off. They are also fast (atleast imps) so you can chase down that runner who has 1 or 2 Hull points left. Or your anticipate their move and you put a nice little bees nest in their path where if they end they are surrounded by TIEs, so maybe they make a sub optimal maneuver. They force some very interesting decisions to have to be made by your opponent and I feel, that is their number 1 strength. Also when Gallant Haven was super popular, Rhymer was able to not engage the aces and still bomb gallant haven forcing your opponent to either leave the gallant haven bubble to deal with the fighters or or take it on the chin and risk losing some shields. If they left the bubble and you screened your interceptors with fighters, 6 blue dice interceptors do some really damage to the aces when they aren't in the GH bubble. Or it forces GH to move sub-optimally to protect the Aces. Fleet Builds, Objectives and Match ups are all very important, but at the end of the day the person it makes the better decisions will often walk away the victor, so why not triple the number of decisions your opponent is forced to make.

I am so excited for Wave 2.

I have a question for everyone.

With what feels like an innate increase in offensive output, can ships (prolly large) use their upgrades defensively to survive the 1000 cuts, and just destroy the smaller cruisers? Or do you go all in on Offense?.....

That is how I would run a Rhymerball if I played imperials more. In fact my Rhymerball video is to show people that it effects more than just bombers.

I may start recording my games on my iPad and posting it on YouTube. It helps me review and improve and helps others learn some new tricks.

I may start recording my games on my iPad and posting it on YouTube. It helps me review and improve and helps others learn some new tricks.

I am waiting on getting a new camera and editing software. . . I want to put overlays like team covenant does. . .

I think they mentioned that in an earlier episode, that if you have a fighter screen, you might as well add Rhymer.

I can make anything work!

As long as it is Imperial and has the letters V S and D in it.

You guys are so right about the squadrons and those stupid stupid dice.

I tried the Y-wing thing for one game, and I remember I rolled 12 black dice over 2 turns. I got 1 hit. What are the odds of that?

When I went to my massing at sullust tournament I took 5 A-wings. I was mathing it out. Ok I do not get crits but a 75% chance to hit with black dice.

Sure enough. I actually got all 5 A-wings on 1 VSD for 2 turns. 10 black dice....9 blanks.

%#$%^^#$@#$%%

%#$%^^#$@#$%%

I had this run through R1H1's translation protocals...its interpreted as a Sullese expression of disgust. In basic it would be pronounced "SUMUNUMBISH".

That is all.

You guys are so right about the squadrons and those stupid stupid dice.

I tried the Y-wing thing for one game, and I remember I rolled 12 black dice over 2 turns. I got 1 hit. What are the odds of that?

When I went to my massing at sullust tournament I took 5 A-wings. I was mathing it out. Ok I do not get crits but a 75% chance to hit with black dice.

Sure enough. I actually got all 5 A-wings on 1 VSD for 2 turns. 10 black dice....9 blanks.

%#$%^^#$@#$%%

Odd, my B-Wings roll about average. I get 1 to 2 Hit/Crits a game and the 3 of them get about 2 to 3 shots each some games. Then again I am only using 3 B-Wings and 3 A-Wings. . .

I think they mentioned that in an earlier episode, that if you have a fighter screen, you might as well add Rhymer.

There really isn't a reason to not take Rhymer if your taking squadrons. My main opponent runs rebels and feels the same way about Tycho.

I think they mentioned that in an earlier episode, that if you have a fighter screen, you might as well add Rhymer.

There really isn't a reason to not take Rhymer if your taking squadrons. My main opponent runs rebels and feels the same way about Tycho.

I must be the odd one. . . I have not taken tycho in a while. . .

You guys are so right about the squadrons and those stupid stupid dice.

I tried the Y-wing thing for one game, and I remember I rolled 12 black dice over 2 turns. I got 1 hit. What are the odds of that?

When I went to my massing at sullust tournament I took 5 A-wings. I was mathing it out. Ok I do not get crits but a 75% chance to hit with black dice.

Sure enough. I actually got all 5 A-wings on 1 VSD for 2 turns. 10 black dice....9 blanks.

%#$%^^#$@#$%%

Odd, my B-Wings roll about average. I get 1 to 2 Hit/Crits a game and the 3 of them get about 2 to 3 shots each some games. Then again I am only using 3 B-Wings and 3 A-Wings. . .

I found that with the bombers, I am more emotionally invested in the result. When I toss out blue dice its like meh whatever. Your plan can not really hinge on getting more than 1 or 2 hits. The way it effects defensive token use (see redirect) its just underrated I feel. Rhymer Firesprays may be my next iteration, we will see. Also when you shoot at ships with you TIEs you just make pew pew noises while the dice is being rolled. That's the secret.

You guys are so right about the squadrons and those stupid stupid dice.

I tried the Y-wing thing for one game, and I remember I rolled 12 black dice over 2 turns. I got 1 hit. What are the odds of that?

When I went to my massing at sullust tournament I took 5 A-wings. I was mathing it out. Ok I do not get crits but a 75% chance to hit with black dice.

Sure enough. I actually got all 5 A-wings on 1 VSD for 2 turns. 10 black dice....9 blanks.

%#$%^^#$@#$%%

Odd, my B-Wings roll about average. I get 1 to 2 Hit/Crits a game and the 3 of them get about 2 to 3 shots each some games. Then again I am only using 3 B-Wings and 3 A-Wings. . .

I found that with the bombers, I am more emotionally invested in the result. When I toss out blue dice its like meh whatever. Your plan can not really hinge on getting more than 1 or 2 hits. The way it effects defensive token use (see redirect) its just underrated I feel. Rhymer Firesprays may be my next iteration, we will see. Also when you shoot at ships with you TIEs you just make pew pew noises while the dice is being rolled. That's the secret.

I don't get that investment. . . I meant I don't have it. I feel that they are an assistance to my attack and if they succeed then all the better but if they don't it is not a HUGE blow.

Then again I don't usually take more then 75 points in squadrons. . .

You guys are so right about the squadrons and those stupid stupid dice.

I tried the Y-wing thing for one game, and I remember I rolled 12 black dice over 2 turns. I got 1 hit. What are the odds of that?

When I went to my massing at sullust tournament I took 5 A-wings. I was mathing it out. Ok I do not get crits but a 75% chance to hit with black dice.

Sure enough. I actually got all 5 A-wings on 1 VSD for 2 turns. 10 black dice....9 blanks.

%#$%^^#$@#$%%

Odd, my B-Wings roll about average. I get 1 to 2 Hit/Crits a game and the 3 of them get about 2 to 3 shots each some games. Then again I am only using 3 B-Wings and 3 A-Wings. . .

I found that with the bombers, I am more emotionally invested in the result. When I toss out blue dice its like meh whatever. Your plan can not really hinge on getting more than 1 or 2 hits. The way it effects defensive token use (see redirect) its just underrated I feel. Rhymer Firesprays may be my next iteration, we will see. Also when you shoot at ships with you TIEs you just make pew pew noises while the dice is being rolled. That's the secret.

I don't get that investment. . . I meant I don't have it. I feel that they are an assistance to my attack and if they succeed then all the better but if they don't it is not a HUGE blow.

Then again I don't usually take more then 75 points in squadrons. . .

With the bombers, they are "supposed" to bomb things. So i think for me mentally, its like WHY YOU NO BOMB? where with Fighters and Interceptors its like HAHA look at these anti-squadron fighters taking pot shots at your cruiser and doing damage. I am 95% an Imperial Player. TIEs are all very specialized in their combat rolls. For rebels I could see where a-wings and x-wings are just better at the dual role.

You guys are so right about the squadrons and those stupid stupid dice.

I tried the Y-wing thing for one game, and I remember I rolled 12 black dice over 2 turns. I got 1 hit. What are the odds of that?

When I went to my massing at sullust tournament I took 5 A-wings. I was mathing it out. Ok I do not get crits but a 75% chance to hit with black dice.

Sure enough. I actually got all 5 A-wings on 1 VSD for 2 turns. 10 black dice....9 blanks.

%#$%^^#$@#$%%

Odd, my B-Wings roll about average. I get 1 to 2 Hit/Crits a game and the 3 of them get about 2 to 3 shots each some games. Then again I am only using 3 B-Wings and 3 A-Wings. . .

I found that with the bombers, I am more emotionally invested in the result. When I toss out blue dice its like meh whatever. Your plan can not really hinge on getting more than 1 or 2 hits. The way it effects defensive token use (see redirect) its just underrated I feel. Rhymer Firesprays may be my next iteration, we will see. Also when you shoot at ships with you TIEs you just make pew pew noises while the dice is being rolled. That's the secret.

I don't get that investment. . . I meant I don't have it. I feel that they are an assistance to my attack and if they succeed then all the better but if they don't it is not a HUGE blow.

Then again I don't usually take more then 75 points in squadrons. . .

With the bombers, they are "supposed" to bomb things. So i think for me mentally, its like WHY YOU NO BOMB? where with Fighters and Interceptors its like HAHA look at these anti-squadron fighters taking pot shots at your cruiser and doing damage. I am 95% an Imperial Player. TIEs are all very specialized in their combat rolls. For rebels I could see where a-wings and x-wings are just better at the dual role.

It could be that I was in Intel in the navy and watched many a bombing run go awry but I do see your side.

Another part of squadrons is they require their own skillset. As a WM/H player I have a lot of experience in proper placement and eye balling threat ranges. This game I can premeasure, so really its just the proper placement that becomes a factor. For you old GW vets, Big ships move like Fantasy infantry bricks and squadrons move like skirmishers/40k armies. its two unique skill sets and trains of thought to get the most out them.

Part of gaming i love is the mental games. Watching people rage at bad bombing runs is amazing. They are always pleasantly surprised when their stunt fighter with 1 blue dice scores a hit. Part of it is dice odds, part of its mental. The opposite is also true, when your TIE interceptor whiffs in a dog fight its like, "do you even pew pew bro?" but when that TIE Bomber drops an enemy squadron its "get that pilot a medal"

I found that with the bombers, I am more emotionally invested in the result. When I toss out blue dice its like meh whatever. Your plan can not really hinge on getting more than 1 or 2 hits.

Also when you shoot at ships with you TIEs you just make pew pew noises while the dice is being rolled. That's the secret.

These. THESE!!! The pewpews BEFORE the TIE roll. YES!!! Sell this in a friggin box FFG and take mah moneeeyyy!

/composure

Good points.

/cough

[quote name="BergerFett" post="1850010"

Squadrons, First off, thank you. Your general loathing of squadrons has people fielding them less and less. I am sure the forums contribute to this but things said on podcasts have more credibility than things read in forums. Its human nature, and as an ex-podcast host myself I totally, never ever, abused this.....ever. My rhymer ball loves being uncontested. LOVES it. Now lets talk about the Rhymer ball. I am in the firm belief that Rhymer + Chardonnay + VSD Title is not the optimal way to Run it. I run it with Rhymer, Howlrunner (oh oh here she comes), 2x Interceptors, 3x Fighters, 1x Advanced, and expanded hangar bays + flight controllers. First if they have fighters, I can have a lethal alpha strike with Interceptors, Fighters and (shes the) Howlrunner. If they do not have fighters, I can go in and ping the flanking shields on your ship. What this does, is negates or lessons the redirect defense token without needing an accuracy (saving it for the brace). It works really well, and 5-6 squadrons rolling 2 black and 4 blue dice hits as hard as a light cruiser, but is harder to kill do to them being squadrons. It takes practice but it works pretty well. Also, when plinking your opponent with 1 dice attack rolls you make them choose, Do I let my shield go to zero, or do I spend my redirect now..... it forces your opponent to make some decisions before your ship has even fired and lets you punish them for making the wrong one. Maybe their ship has no shields and rhymer hits a hit/crit.... now they are thinking redirect? brace? his ship hasn't even fired yet. I love it cinematically speaking and its been great at dealing with pesky rebel ships. Now add in Boosted comms and you can really reach deep with bombing runs. If they have a Jaina's light, or a Tantive 4, really anything with Leia. You can potentially hop the front wave of their ships and start bomber running, and 2 black and 3 blue dice will start to enable your ships to finish it off. They are also fast (atleast imps) so you can chase down that runner who has 1 or 2 Hull points left. Or your anticipate their move and you put a nice little bees nest in their path where if they end they are surrounded by TIEs, so maybe they make a sub optimal maneuver. They force some very interesting decisions to have to be made by your opponent and I feel, that is their number 1 strength. Also when Gallant Haven was super popular, Rhymer was able to not engage the aces and still bomb gallant haven forcing your opponent to either leave the gallant haven bubble to deal with the fighters or or take it on the chin and risk losing some shields. If they left the bubble and you screened your interceptors with fighters, 6 blue dice interceptors do some really damage to the aces when they aren't in the GH bubble. Or it forces GH to move sub-optimally to protect the Aces. Fleet Builds, Objectives and Match ups are all very important, but at the end of the day the person it makes the better decisions will often walk away the victor, so why not triple the number of decisions your opponent

For my ISD build I am planning the following squadron support.

Dengar

Howlrunner

3 TIE interceptors

Expanded hanger bays booster coms and flight controllers. Designed to hunt down bomber/y wing/bwing swarms. The interceptors will roll 6 blues on an activation, Dengar rolls 5 and Howlrunner 4. Then the interceptors will have counter 4, and Howlrunner has counter 1.

The other squadron I was thinking about was a modification of the rhymer. Same ship upgrades. Rhymer, dengar, vader, and 2 bombers. Now the bombers have a blue, black anti-squadron, and counter 1. Vader gets counter 1, and both vader and dengar throw the blacks out to medium range.

Salcor

For my ISD build I am planning the following squadron support.

Dengar

Howlrunner

3 TIE interceptors

Expanded hanger bays booster coms and flight controllers. Designed to hunt down bomber/y wing/bwing swarms. The interceptors will roll 6 blues on an activation, Dengar rolls 5 and Howlrunner 4. Then the interceptors will have counter 4, and Howlrunner has counter 1.

The other squadron I was thinking about was a modification of the rhymer. Same ship upgrades. Rhymer, dengar, vader, and 2 bombers. Now the bombers have a blue, black anti-squadron, and counter 1. Vader gets counter 1, and both vader and dengar throw the blacks out to medium range.

Salcor

It only seems to be good IF they take squadrons. Thats a big problem with squadrons. They answer a specific question. What happens when that question is never asked?

Rhymer fixes this in my opinion. He lets your squadrons still answer the question, but also in return asks a question himself. Good or bad design if imperial and running squadrons, I feel Rhymer is a must include. They dont have squadrons? Punish them for it with Rhymer, they do have squadrons? Proceed as normal. Also with Dengar and Howlrunner you may want an advanced or 2 to eat some attacks once you get dug in. If they don't have squadrons they still have black dice bombardments.

I may write an article on my squadron tech and stuff for everyone and then let others put up there ideas and tech.