Necronomicus said:

tell which CCG uses minis and relative distance.....i wana know them...give me names. I wana know what games of "ole" (i assume old) used custom dice designed just for that game. the scenes concept has been around sence the times of shakespeare and older so if anything they ripped it off the old bardic story tellers of the tribal European nations in the early dark ages. the stance meter....give me MMO titles that use a conservitive and reckless attack style. When you give me your facts and hard evidence ill have a little more respect for your statments...untill then go wine and complain to a forum group that cares.....unless you can PROVE your statements you will NEVER win an argument...period!

jadrax said:

thanks i knew I was swirling around the truth somehow. which kinda proves my not so articulate point that game designers actually use effective concepts in one game with another game. like maybe FFG using stuff that works in their boardgames and appying them to an RPG.

this is the kind of thing I like. one guy throwing out something kinda muddy but on the right track, and another guy clearing things up. too bad we dont see more of this kind of thing instead of the speculative hatred and snarkiness.

I'm suffering from a hangover today, but 7th sea CCG and warhammer 40K ccg, warhammer ccg, used relative distance of tokens and or cards to depict distance.

You had several range categories, and things could not interact at certain ranges. melee, close, long etc. just like 3e

the dragon dice game collectible dice game was an entirly symbol dice game. Rolling a pool you generated results with all sorts of shapes colors sizes and symbols.

I'm sure other ppl in this thread can help my foggy memory and lack of wanting to do research on all my facts for simply a forum post.

Are you guys *still* talking about whether every concept in WFRP 3e is completely original?

It has already been established that almost nothing in any RPGs is original, by themselves. It is the entire package that is looked at as a whole that is what is being "identified" by a moniker.

Who cares if 7th Seas might have had relative distances before WFRP 3e? It makes no difference to this discussion, unless it also had a dice pool, action/talent cards, stance meter, etc. (ie, its entire rule system is near identical to WFRP 3e's)

I've just been calling it the dice-card system. It uses custom dice in combination with cards. Simple.

It's almost a bit bland and generic, IMO. I would think they'd want something a bit more memorable. It's a reasonable and constructive suggestion, though, unlike all the others we've had in this thread. I haven't been able to come up with one I like, otherwise I'd post one.

Dice systems: WEG Legends system used 6 sided dice with 3 codes on them. Success, Failure, nothing. Could be wrong it might have only been two, success or failure. The game went further with a wild (luck) dice and you could add extra dice by using Character Points or Hero Points. The number of dice rolled was based on Attribute+skill dice and adding any extra dice based on spent CP or HP (or Force points in Star Wars D6). There fore, if you color coded the dice (red for attribute, blue for skill, black for wild, green for character point bonus dice and white for extra dice from hero/force points for example) you could calculate which dice give you successes or failures and determine your "story elements" from that.

Alternity used the notion of adding/subtracting dice based on difficulty, the result was added to or removed from a D20 die roll. As with the above system, you could determine if success or failure came from the base roll of the D20 or the modifier, which could help in story elements.

Hollow Earth Expedition uses ubiquity dice that have various result codes on them. Still only counting base numbers for successes and failures or what not.

Blood Bowl had coded dice.

As mentioned before, Dragon Dice.

Cards: Masterbook used the masterdeck (also Torg, same game). Dead Lands used playing cards. Even AD&D 2E had cards for spells and equipment and mosters, though they didnt do anything special for tracking power recharges or initiative tracks. But were used to reduce searching through countless books.

Castle Falkenstein also used cards (instead of dice).

Saga system had cards that included actions, role playing tips, as well as postive and negative effects and "TRUMPS".

So in short, yes themes and ideas for WFRP 3E did exist prior to this game coming out. However, I will give them credit for adding some of these ideas together and trying to weave them together.

No problem with that.

As for the OP of naming the system. DiCard sounds cool to me. But Id go with something more generic and interesting, like Adventure System or Fantasy System.

If we could get some amber dice into the game, somehow, then you could call it the College System.

Dvang made a good point that follows one i made before...there truly are no really "new ideas" so this just brings good ideas together into one good system and makes everything flow...and thank you from giving examples i looked them up and i can see where you get your points and its a good point! but on the other hand like i said this joining of semi new and old ideas used to create on system : )

dvang said:

How many of those other games have claimed to be original, innovative, etc?

Just as an example: WFRPv1 wasn't original, the designers modelled the game on CoC set in a dark fantasy world.

On topic naming the system:

HeroQuest RPG (Reference to a boardgame with roleplay elements that closely resembles WFRPv3)

The Nameless (Why name the system when you can keep it grim and perilous by refusing to let it's name be spoken!!!!!!!)

The Forbidden Cards of Fate (Reference to a key game feature)

The Outlawed Dice of Peril (Reference to a key game feature)

The False Prophet's Gospel (Spooky, Grim, Perilous and Accurate)

The DARD System (D ice/c ARD)

The Trollslayers Doom (Reference to a prominant game feature, with a punk Dwarf as the System Logo)

A.I.D.S. System (An Acronym for Aids, Immolation, Dice, Symbolism.)

S.U.P.E.R. System (Acronym for Symbolic, Unlimited, Personal, Exictement, Roleplay)

S.K.A.V.E.N. System (Acronym for Symbolic, Kard, Aided, Veiled, Evil, Nemesis)

The Shining Star System (Upbeat and shinny, yet Jack Nicolson, the Shining: dark and evil)

E.T.H.E.R System (Acronym for Enigmatic, Tools, Help, Exceptional, Roleplay)

Lost Odessey (No relevance, just looking at the computer game of the same name sitting on my shelf and thought cool name, shame it's taken)

T.H.R.O.N.E. (Acronym for Tools, Help, Roleplay, Obtain, New, Elevations)

P.A.R.I.S. (Acronym for Popular, Aids, Resurrected, Inside, Simultaneously)

C.R.A.P. (Acronym for Creative, Roleplaying, Aids, Propaganda) Brilliant that's the clincher!!

What about ICON GAME SYSTEM?

since the symbols of the dice are perhaps the most important aspect of this new edition, the symbols are reflected on the cards as well. And probably will deserve a great deal of attention in the rulesbooks as well. So it will be fairly accurate to use these symbols as a part of the brand system naming.

Twin-tailed Comet System
Chaos Star Dice System
Hammer Dice Pool system

Multiple Dice system
Die Chaos System or just D-chaos system.

the naming is not important for me, although I think WotC did a clever thing by doing so with their D20 system.

Oddly enough my hero token on the enthusiastic-about-the-game stance-meter, have moved a couple of notches towards the wait-and-see middle of the stance-meter. I hope its only temporarily. But like with Peacekeeper b, there is a lot of emotion in all this for me. For me RPG is about emotion, drama, great storytelling rather than just rules and spending xp.

People, PEOPLE! Please. Why does it matter if elements of this system can be found somewhere else before? To show your extensive gaming knowledge? Cool story, bro. This system, with all these different elements, as 1 RPG system, is great. Here's a little role play, set in a different context so you can get out of your elitist gaming mindset and see just how much of a laugh many of you are being.

You come up with a new recipe for a dish, and invite me and our friend **** to dinner.

me: this tastes great, man!

you: thanks. this is no foodnetwork recipe. happened to come up with this myself.

me: really? dang...

****: This is horrible.

you: really? I love it. you really think so or you just saying.

****: no, this suck. because it is unoriginal.

you: hey man, I really came up with it myself! I'm not a liar.

****: oh yea? Oh YEA? Well it tastes a bit sweet, a little sour, a little spicy, has chicken in it, looks red, and uses some indian herbs.

you: Yea, that's right. That's what I used, you have a good tongue. A nice blend of flavours, I thought. What's wrong with that?

****: Sour and sweet. That's been done with sweet and sour pork. everyone knows that.

****: spicy and chicken, that's just like hot wings. You can't lie to me.

****: red. this color has been used a dozen times in various dishes, and some soup. Totally unoriginal.

****: and indian herbs?! come on, don't make me laught. This dish isn't indian, so why are there indian herbs. I dont care if the taste blends well, it is indian herbs on a non-indian dish. utterly sht.

You: but that's still my recipe, man. I DID come up with the things myself.

****: shut it. you didn't come up with spicy, you didnt come up with sweet, red, sour, OR chicken. they all existed before. Original my arse.

me: I think that counts as original... but regardless of that, the taste is good though, isnt it?

****: it is unoriginal. been done before. and it isn't indian, but it has indian herbs. thats retarded.

me: i think we are stretching the meaning of "original" quite a bit here. define it how you want man, just saying that's outside social conventions, beyond reasonablility. ANNNNYWAY, whats this dish called?

you: hmm, I don't really have a name for it yet.

****: Call it Unoriginal Mix served with Mess. Or Done-before on Copy Sauce.

me: Oh, come on, ****!

LOL

funny and well-written...and clearly demonstrates a point here. some do take the original/unoriginal debate to uneccesary heights.

A good demonstration xenoss

xenoss said:

Well you earlier (or someone did if it wasnt you) said that if people couldnt recall what systems were"influences" or "used similar methods" then they didnt count as without facts or proof you couldnt win an argument.

I never said that this game sucks cause the rules are from other games. I never said no one wouldnt lik it. I never said it wouldnt work. Istated that it was my opinion that it looked clunky and clumsy and that I dont think it does anything it claims to do that was special or unique (ie play faster than 2E, improve role playing, et al).

And it was others who were stating the game was innovative, original, new and unique, the messiah of role playing games from the sounds of it.

Course this thread is for naming the system. So lets get back to that.

You made up a recipe for a new pasta dish and discuss this with two friends, me and a guy named **** in a local cafe.

You: I’ve got a great idea for a new pasta dish! I mix burger and hot dogs in a big, heavy and catchy box with nice graphics and include napkins, knives and forks for four persons in it!

Me: Ehhh… there’s no pasta in here?

****: OMG OMG This is the best pasta EVVAR!!!

Me: ??? Eh ****… you haven’t eaten it yet!

You: It’s a complete revolution in pasta! Totally new and never seen before! No one has ever thought of this before!

Me: Well we have seen burgers before… and hot dogs… but when I want to eat burger I buy… well burger and not pasta. And likewise, when I want pasta I sort of go for …pasta.

****: HATER! TROLL!!! We don’t want people like you in this café!

Me: Ok… well… why do this hrmm… “pasta” comes in a big box with cutlery for four persons. Isn’t it likely that people that want to eat pasta already have cutlery at home?

You: This is totally new cutlery! They look like ordinary cutlery, but I made them in shiny happy colours and put odd sign on them.

****: OMG OMG I must preorder this pasta!!! Take my VISA number!

Me: Burgers can be nice… and hotdogs… but are you really sure that this is the optimal ingredient for a pasta?

****: HATER! Find your own café!

Gnutten said:

You just won the internet

Gasp!

The FFG forums. An endless battlefield of opposing opinions.

The weapons of this eternal battle: snide, derisive remarks from both sides.

The armor worn by these noble warriors: years of gruelling experience and hoarded knowledge of a cornucopia of roleplaying game systems.

Who will rise out of the rubble and strewn bodies in this bloody field?

WILL anyone be victorious?

Or will this netherworld of the internet remain a Sisyphean purgatory?

Only time will tell. Or maybe it won't.

[iNAPPROPRIATE CONTENT EDITED BY MODERATOR]

That being said, there is a difference between arguing and discussing. And you can bet your ass that arguing includes a hefty chunk of sardonic and snide comments without much in the way of constructive value. Som im asking the lot of you, what sort of comments have you seen the most of in this thread, nay this entire friggin messageboard?

Varnias Tybalt said:

What the...?

Anyways, I guess we can worry about a name for this particular system after the game is in the shops and in our hands and excessively "playtested" by us. Because I'm still not sure wether I'm going to love this system or hate it, or wether I'll just think "yeah, it's okay". Some things we've seen so far I liked, some things not so much, but I still have no clue about how exactly this will feel in action. Since my group actually wants to buy the box together I will try for sure as soon as it's out. Until then I'll just wait and digest the breadcrumbs Jay feeds us with.

Kyos said:

good point....and i think thats a great way to look at it...we can make the name later....lets play it first : ) i for one cant wait to get my hands on this and i hope my FLGS gets a copy for hte pre- release : )

The Bauble Beuracracy?

****: HATER! Find your own café!

Hahahah - best flame yet.

That was almost as good as some of the flamers that try to be all serious and wise.

There are so many grognards on this board it's a wonder we don't all burst into flames from the concentrated awesomeness.

Edit: I give up on the quote system.

NezziR said:

its broken.....like many peoples hearts on this forum

WFRP 3E is the Obama of RPGs.

There you go. A simile that works for everyone, the hatas and the playas...

Luther said:

Oh, cool. So it can win an award for best RPG pre-launch, just because it has the potential to be a good game, rather than having actually been proven to be a good game.

dvang said:

Yeah, but at least it's not GWFRPB!