This system is brilliant; it is a new paradigm in RPG. It deserves a system name. Like D&D3E is d20. WHFRP3E deserves a system name. So when FFG reuses the system for other settings and games, we can immediately recognize the brand.

I know there are a lot of negative comments surrounding the game. Like D&D4E had. I won't argue with you that perhaps this game isn't very true to WHFRP; let's just say you are right. Either way, WH or not, I think the system is amazing.

It'll be easy to get people to play, because players more or less don't need to learn new rules. You know how hard it is to convince players to learn new systems, I'm sure. For this game, with all those cards and sheets, make it easy to quickly play without extensive rules learning. As GM, all I need to do is guide the char creation, explain the stats and some of the symbols and such, and get playing. It'll be easy to tell what dice to roll, easy to tell what is successful (and why, even!), all done without having to force players to learn the rules before hand. All the conditions in the game on cards, so you can keep track of them AND have the rules easily read cardgame style, so everyone is on the same page without people asking about rules all the time.

FFG please give this system a name, and reuse it for future products. (if it turns out to be successful, that is. with RPGs, you can never tell).

Don't let WotC steal this and release it as D&D4.5E a year and a half later and give it a name. People are just stupid enough to think WotC came up with it. (honestly, they'll probably copy portions of this soon anyway. well, you did take their 4E Power cards concept, so I guess it is only fair)

xenoss said:

Descent came out before 4E, it has powercards with lightning bolts instead of boons, banes and Axes. v3 is just a more complex form of the Descent cards. to be fair, the cards in 4E are more of a reference tool rather than an integrated mechanic, and 4E is a wedding of WOW, Magic:tg. WHFRP has its mecanical influences in Descent (and most Likely Tide of Iron), which is a copy of DOOM the Boardgame which of course is a tabletop simulation of the videogame.

Actually i have seen just about every design element in this new edition scattered in other products since the dawn of RPGs And simply making a physical mock up of elements found in MMOs is not new either. All of these "tools" have existed in either obscure or non DnD rpgs thru the years, or in video games in a virtual form.

However what is novel, is the inclusion of so many of these things in one product. I reserve my judgement for its final execution.

possible names

The history of gaming blender system

Potpouri

The Salad Bar system

Making use of previous failed ideas in other games system

The Gimmick system TM

Symbolic Dice Pool or SDP, that what i think

Necronomicus said:

yay for rube sarcasm.....lets try to keep things to CONSTRUCTIVE comments...this is just not needed

should have said sardonic....thats sarcasm that is ment to be mean and rude

Necronomicus said:

Great names.

I would like to add :

Warhammer: the Gathering

A card game formerly known as WFRP

Necronomicus said:

Name some of them. tell us where they got the dice idea from. the range band idea from( i first saw it in the old DL saga system). the stance meter idea from. the conservative/reckless idea from. where did they get the recharge idea from? where did they get their spin on the intiative system from? I really want to know. if you have specifics give them, a blanket generalization doesnt do anybody any good and doesnt do much to advance your argument.

I know that a lot of D&D concepts had their origins in wargames. IIRC, Armor class was lifted from some naval wargame that dave arneson played.

Dicepools and Fiddly-Cards.

nuff said.

I've already pre-ordered and will be running for my FLGS (probably

jh

chojun:

Cards: we've seen them in many games before, right now they remind me D&D4e's powercards a little (which are optional, and act only as reference), and Magic the Gathering or other TCGs (they are flashy, contain lots of game mechanics, and you need them to play).

Initiative: reminds me an advanced version of old-school D&D's group initiative, or a really dumbed down version of the count system (like in Aces&Eights, HackMaster 5e). Palladium's initiative also works a bit like that.

Conservative/reckless: most rpg's have some rule about doing something more caotiously or agressively, although these meant only bonuses and penalties to skill. Easiest example: Power Attack in D&D. Better one: Traveller, where you can hurry or take your time with a skill check, which results in bonuses or penalties. And it wasn't bound by any meters, how reckless you can be.

Stance meter: I saw it in many video games, mostly jrpgs.

Recharge: Almost every MMORPG from Everquest to WoW uses this.

The only really innovative element are the custom dice, at least for me - I know there are rpg systems with custom dice, like FUDGE, but they work almost like a normal dice throw, they only generate a random number. But we had card and even jenga based RPGs, so it's not a huge surprise to see something like that.

Ravenheart87 said:

cards: anybody in these forums ever play descent? and magic the gathering isnt an RPG. but yeah, a bunch of info packed on a card has to come from this.

Initiative: every body robbed this from some out of print 1972 wargame.

C/R: did they do it with differnet color dice so you wont have to be mathmatical at 2 am?

meters: i saw this in my car once on the dash board.

Recharge: yeah, definate MMO here. no doubt about it. but i watched a popeye cartoon once where he did it with spinach and no cards.

Necronomicus said:

The mess, the spoil, the flush, the list is practically endless

FFG naming the system has very little bearing on anything.

Systems cannot be copyrighted (thus D&D cannot claim that rolling a d20 against a target number is theirs alone) so it's entirely possible that others will be inspired by it. I hope others DO create their own versions of it - it's a good system.

I also hope that FFG uses it for other games - notably the 2nd edition of Dark Heresy in the fullness of time!

Just because this system has nameable elements doesn't mean it isnt new. That's like saying M:tG was unoriginal, because people have been playing with cards from a deck since before the middle ages. So when you start deconstructing the system, naming where and what influenced which part of this game, I think you are already stretching what is considered reasonable. If we have to talk like that, nothing now really is innovative or new in any way, since everything is inspired by something; or I should say, everything can be said to have come from some other thing.

I think people just don't want to admit to innovation, because some people can't handle the fact that they didn't think of it first. At the least, FFG integrated existing elements and designs into a new entity, in a way that was never done before in an RPG system.

I like the new paradigm. And I hope they name it. Not to patent it, but to put the brand out there so it is instantly recognizable.

This "mess" as some call it, is going to enable me to introduce the game to players who don't want to learn new systems; to players who don't have RPG experience, and make them quickly catch on. People seem to love putting up a negative front, an elitist attitude to everything new. This system CAN be great if in practice, the dice poll and resolution system doesn't slow down play (that is my main concern). But other than that, this is very promising due to the seeming ease of pick up for new players.

Another reason why I think this is brilliant:

This takes care somewhat of pirate issues. WotC tries so hard. But even for 4E, if you can get the rulebooks somehow online, you'll get an experience that is pretty much the same as if you bought the rulebooks. Sure, you won't have a physical books sitting there, but you can still have the rules on your pirated copies. And play will just involve your character sheets (printable legally online), your dice, pencils, and perhaps power cards you print (you have to do that any way if you bought the book, since they aren't in card form to begin with).

This game however, somewhat solves the issue. You cannot pirate it (much): there are too many bits and pieces, and even if you download them somehow, the experience will not be the same as if you bought it. Sure, you'll still be able to play, since all the info would still be there, but you wont have the bits and pieces. Or you'll need to print them out. Either way, you cannot get the same experience; you can only simulate. So to get the full experience, you'll have to buy it. Or, if you want to closely simulate, you'll need to print a lot of stuff; is it worth it to pirate then? Or, you'll pirate and not be able to really utilize the system (because it requires the bits), and the pirate copies then don't really do you much good; or you somehow make your own bits and sheets and such without going to print it. Is it worth the effort instead of just buying it?)

FFG did great with this design. And I think they know it. The negative comments here doesn't really have many solid arguments, if at all. I guess we'll just need to wait and see how it does. I only hope people judge it by what it is, instead of boycotting it before they even try just because they are so "elite".

xenoss said:

Oddly enough, I find many of the negative argements to be fairly solid. At least as solid as the demos and examples FFG have given us so far.

But then again, perhaps I am just too "elite".

schoon said:

I truly hope thier contract expires before that happens!

Sorry, that was possibly too "elite".

My players like the system we use, and yes we can always use them even if they are discontinued, our books dont vanish. What they like about RPGs is the simplicity of sitting back with some dice, some pencils and some paper and just get involved in the story and RPG modes fo the game. Occassionally we have to look at a talent or skill in the book to recall what all it can do and what it means, but generally the players have read the rules and entries and kinda know them.

Now they have to rummage through a pile of cards infront of them, hope they have the action they want to use, remember to count counters and turns and what not for recharge, check their stance and initiative, debate on who goes first, when where and why, gather the dice, hope they have enough, tap their hard glare cards, cast the dice, interpret them, debate the result and so forth.

In most RPGs, a good player knows what the rules do and how to apply them as is.

Anyway, yeah, name the system anyway. Im sure the game overall will work and many people will have fun with it. But the notion of dont judge it until you spent your hard earned money on it is silly. Its called advertising and promoting, and obviously they havent sold the game to some people yet or at all.

And some of them have posted troll like comments and others have posted very well versed and phrased arguments, unfortunately I tend to fall in the middle of those two. Its passion, it gets the best of me.

But the other side has done the same in pure fanboy fashion (and yes, that is how the word is used).

But as my stance on the meter has slightly shifted to the wait and see (basically Im waiting to see how everyone's opinions change once they get this game, mine wont change cause Im a stubborn bastard!).

Peacekeeper_b said:

well said peacekeeper!

THIS NEXT BIT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ABOVE STATEMENTS FROM PEACEKEEPER

But i do have to say this.....give us RPG's, Pen and paper, that are like this....if they got the idea from a video....well done FFG...thats whats called innovation.....many have said this before me...there are no new idea.....just the rehashing of old into something new....and i for one say thats wrong....this is a new concept for PEN AND PAPER RPG's MTG is not an RPG thats like saying MTG is like poker cuz they both have cards....um....no! the recharge system.....um thats been in RPG's from the start.....this is just different angle and look to it....some idea as haveing to wait tell the next combat...or your next turn to attack.....the conservative and reckless are way more indepth in WFRP then in any other game. yeah im sure if you take your time in DnD to sneak the DM will be more likely to make the DC ( number needed to role for ) lower...but here....that could still be the death of you......

Wow. I don’t think I’ve seen a bigger collection of snotty, angry, ill-conceived and unconstructive posts in a thread on these boards before. A whole plethora of unconstructive, purely inflamatory posts making snide comments and cheap shots. All the fanboys of bashing 3e have apparently congregated to this thread.

The poster asked for some suggestions for FFG to name this new system something, like WoTC did with “d20”, so that if this system is used in another game it could be identified easily.

The individual elements of the d20 system were not particularly unique or original, but the system as a whole was (enough to be identified). It doesn’t matter if the individual elements of WFRP 3e’s system are completely original or unique thoughts, the system as a whole is different from anything else. Thus, it can reasonably have a name for it, if FFG so desires.

There is no call for unflattering, unconstructive, and derogatory comments from the peanut gallery. I thought both sides had agreed, in other threads, to try to remain constructive in their posts (even if they disagreed with each other). Obviously I was mistaken that the anti-v3 faction was willing to do that.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - --- - -- - - -

Now they have to rummage through a pile of cards infront of them, hope they have the action they want to use, remember to count counters and turns and what not for recharge, check their stance and initiative, debate on who goes first, when where and why, gather the dice, hope they have enough, tap their hard glare cards, cast the dice, interpret them, debate the result and so forth.
In most RPGs, a good player knows what the rules do and how to apply them as is.

-No need to rummage. They just place their cards in front of them, rather than keeping them in a random pile. Now, they might want to consider their motivations for wanting to keep their cards in an unorganized pile when they know they will need to look at them. Perhaps there is something wrong with how they play, rather than the game system.
-A player should still know which actions they can take/use, although with the cards they don’t have to memorize them. Again, perhaps it’s an issue with the player rather than the game.
-Well, since they have to remember when a spell/effect ends in most RPGs anyway … at least it’s nice that 3e provides counters instead of keeping track of those in their head. It also allows the other players (and GM) to see how much time is left on various spells/effects. If someone would rather keep track in their head, well, make sure they clear it with their GM first. The game doesn’t really care.
-Yes, I suppose sometimes it could be nice not to need to think at all on what you will do for you turn. “Gee, I go first, again? Guess I make a standard attack…again. Can't I make a different type of attack? No?”, and “****, I have to pass on my turn, because the slow dwarf is in front of me, so I can’t do anything until he moves” and "****, the dwarf didn't move far enough in his previous turn, so all I can do is move back up behind him and wait for him to move ... again."
-If someone has a hard time sorting out hammer pictures from sword pictures, then I can only imagine how hard a time they must have trying to read or calculate percentages and degrees of success. Perhaps they should have a player who is good at reading dice sit next to them to help until they get good at it. It really doesn't look that hard.
-A good player does not necessarily have all the rules memorized. A good player does not necessarily know by heart what his newest talent does. A good player can appreciate tools and aids to speed up gameplay and lessen time spent consulting a rulebook. A good player can adapt to a new system. A good player can appreciate a system for what it is and does, compensating for what doesn’t work for them (house rules) … rather than ranting and whining about it. I could go on. But, in point of fact, not every player is a ‘good’ player. Oftentimes there may be a player who is new to RPGs, or poor at RPGs mechanics-wise (but much enthusiasm and roleplaying), or even those poor at both yet liking to play RPGs all the same. WFRP 3e can help lessen the difficulty, and learning curve, that players that haven’t memorized the rules might have, while still being enjoyable and interesting for those that do memorize the rules.

dvang said:

I can't say it better myself.

Good players: Yes, the poster is what I'd consider elitist. No may bes required, and no offense intended. Why good players? For me, I don't want "good" as a requirement for players. It's just a game, I only want everyone to have a fun time. And the easier it is for that to happen, the better. If there are things I can to do allow easier pickup of a new system, I appreciate it. That not only takes the work out for them, but for me as well. The realistic, instead of the idealistic, situation is that not all players are "good players", or "bad" players. A lot of them, people are just players. If they HAVE to learn the rules and remember them and reference the rulebook, they'll do it. But I think I speak for all of them when I say, if there is a easier way, if there is some aid that can be afforded them to make playing the game and learning it easier, that'd be great. Looking at dice pool with symbols, they'll pick up the meaning and mechanics faster (I think, but that remains to be seen); regular die rolls give you a number that means nothing unless you remember what is the math behind it. (I am not a big fan of fiddly systems; I like FATE and Fudge, and love the Fudge dice)

Sure, they'll still need to learn some rules. But the whole process becomes much easier (so far as it seems, mind you), keeping track of things less of a hassle. Less checking the rulebook. Why is that bad? There will be many chances to go back to that when other games are played. And other games will be played.

My statement about people having no solid arguments is demonstrated with the "rummage" comment. Somehow, rummaging got into the whole thing when there is no necessarily logic behind it. I think dvang put it nicely. There is no need to rummage. And yet to argue the point and shed a messy impression on the game, this game requires you to rummage. When there are only a few cards (like DnD4E), a character sheet with a card, and some coutners to help keep track of things (but of course, having counters spilling every which way is messy. not only does it require rummaging, it also makes it impossible for 4 year olds to play because they might swallow the parts. What a horrible idea. It is going to kill kids!) Such are the self serving comments that some put forth that sounds good on the surface, but have no substance because they are based on unnecessarily scenarios.

My stance is clear. I am very impressed with the idea. And I sound like a fanboy. But I should also make clear here (I did somewhere else) that my stance is also wait and see, but with a positive outlook. This is very experimental, and it looks to me like it'll work but cannot be sure. This product is a 100 buck one. Not something I'm going to purchase on faith, I'l wait for reviews to come out from respectible sources before I can decide how this game works as a WHFRP game, and if it is a fun, fast game. It could be innovative but fail to achieve the WH atmosphere, it could be innovative but fail to be fun, it could be innovative but fail to be fast. Who knows? I'll wait to find out with an open mind.

I do however think the innovation deserves its own name and think FFG should set the brand image now for the other games that follows.

In fact, I think this brilliant system would have had a much better birth had it been born with a different setting, original or FFG owned like Midnight and Runebound. WH is near and dear to a lot of people. It is a well established IP (much like D&D), much too well established to be messed with by innovations. WotC is a good example.

I cant blame (and I dont) people for their negative reactions. I know I comment on them and don't sit well with them, but I understand where the rage is from. This system deserves name, and perhaps, it also deserved its own campaign setting IP to begin with. Perhaps it is bad karma for FFG to not trust in this cool new approach and instead hope to use WH's IP to help it along. (my guess only, of course)

It is ironic then, that instead of helping it along the WH IP is only hurting the system.

I really don't think I have to explain where each element of the 3e design came from. Since first off, it is an bastard child of every FFG product. Then every FFG product (which i do think is great of them) looks at the history of all gaming products and uses what works. I could itemize every element that has been brough forth. But it really is more than my time is worth.

First off their concept time/scenes etc. Totally a rip off of white wolf story teller games. Their lack of a map, and relative distance, a rip off of CCG card games. Their stance meter, a rip off of MMO games, their dice pool and unique dice a rip off of many games of ole, you name it every stystem and tool they are using for this ed has been done, and many posters here can site the source to the very page of a book they own, cuz they have the book from 1984. Don't temp me.

Simply put the only thing invovative about this edition, is the inclusion of so many radical/ out there/ rip off video games/ccgs/boardgames etc,

i've never seen so many of those ideas bundled into one packages. THAT IS NEW.

I'd have to see some practical video game play to come up with a name for something like this...

And after all I think Jay owes us a session demo video

Exactly, Xenoss! Well said.

Necro: the same thing can be said for just about every single RPG to hit the shelves since D&D. They all get inspiration and ideas, concepts, mechanics, etc from other places. It's like saying that D&D "ripped off" Tolkein .. so it wasn't original. WFRP v1 & v2 weren't original because they "ripped off" either Tolkein or worse, D&D (hey, there are elves and dwarves and halflings, and orcs, and goblines, etc). There isn't a single RPG out there that didn't draw ideas from somewhere else.

(BTW the concept of scenes & acts has been in games prior to WW, so WW ripped it off from somewhere else ... and so on)

Let's see... Lots of multicoloured dice... lots of colours... like a rainbow...

Alright.. and now... it's a brand new system. A new dawn for RPGs. A "bright" new morning...

THE RAINBOW BRIGHT SYSTEM!

I win. +500 exp. for me! That is such a bad ass name for an rpg.

eh guys?

chojun said:

I've just been calling it the dice-card system. It uses custom dice in combination with cards. Simple.