Tags in general should describe nature and style of your abilities (and probably a primary focus for them), not necessarily bar you from content. What is nice is to make sure that social monk feels social in monkish way, and courtly bushi feels courtly in bushi way too. 3 Pillars Philosophy is nice, because pretty much every adventure will have these 3 basic ingredients mixied in, although in different proportions.

Hello,

Regarding all of the OP points, one specifically caught my attention:

• Schools and Techniques

I really like the School progression, as it is on par with the Japanese flavour of the game. It helps tying characters to a dojo, having a sensei and explains the many different styles and fighting techniques. Now, I do believe, as many others, that Techniques should be a shortcut to what other characters could accomplish without them, as thanks to the Technique you can do it (much) better.

However, I believe, there is one Technique that should be alien to everyone who has not mastered it, the final one. The Rank 5 Technique, if we are to keep the five steps of a School, should be something that only students of this School, who have reached this level of mastery, can do. It might give a more wuxia flavour to L5R but I believe it would serve very well.

Paths, which I hope are kept, could also represent a very niche aspect without going to the point where no one else can do it.

The first Technique should always represent the iconic aspect of a School, meaning that each School would have its specificity, not plural.

Most of this as already been done with the 4th Edition, but they are some mechanical aspects that really kept me going and would love to see them re-implemented and more finely tuned.

What if you made it four pillars?

Emerald Magistrates (Action / Adventure), Legionnaire (Mass Battle War), Jade Magistrates (Supernatural Horror), and Winter Court (Courtly / Intrigue)

I'd also like to see a return of the IC style from 2nd and 1st edition. So each of those core books above would be written from that group's perspective.

What if you made it four pillars?

Emerald Magistrates (Action / Adventure), Legionnaire (Mass Battle War), Jade Magistrates (Supernatural Horror), and Winter Court (Courtly / Intrigue)

I'd also like to see a return of the IC style from 2nd and 1st edition. So each of those core books above would be written from that group's perspective.

Mass battles has that potential problem of trying to find ways to get parties with multiple clans to want to help each other fight another clan or clans. It gets very messy very easily in this universe unless they added some sort of enemy that no one likes. Of course, that just means basic shadowlands mooks and supernatural horror already covers that. I guess you can have a gaijin threat or something.

I would say the Mass Battles bit would assume the characters are part of the Imperial Legion, with an appendix on setting the game with a single clan army.

I would say the Mass Battles bit would assume the characters are part of the Imperial Legion, with an appendix on setting the game with a single clan army.

Just wondering why? Clan against Clan warfare being much more common than the Imperial Legions marching to war.

I would say the Mass Battles bit would assume the characters are part of the Imperial Legion, with an appendix on setting the game with a single clan army.

Just wondering why? Clan against Clan warfare being much more common than the Imperial Legions marching to war.

I was wondering the same thing.

The game historically assumes a multi-clan party usually the Magistrate game. (I was reading the back section of Core). But I don't see why a book focusing on Mass Battles would prevent someone from doing Clan vs. Clan. You just need to make sure there is enough variety for an all Lion, or all Unicorn, etc game.

The main difficulty would be shugenja, since in setting, only the Dragon, Pheonix, and Mantis I think deploy shugenja in their armies on a regular basis.

And figuring out wether one can either find something to do for courtiers, or simply differentiating bushi that are soldiers/officers and those that are tacticians and messengers, and scouts.

One thing to bring up, as I personally find it a rather annoying problem: the Skill list is in a need of rework/cleanup. Like, some of the Mastery Abilities can be reworked (especially for Social Skills to be more meaningful, for Macro Skills to actually have an impact, and for some of the Weapon Skills to make sense - yes, I'm looking at you Polearms and Spears), and some "missing" Skills should appear on the list (Acrobatics, Mechanics/Lock Picking) or get the upgrade from Emphases to Skill (Interrogation, Navigation). Some additional Emphases would be cool too (like any for Defense) while others need some rework (Sailing should have Emphases per ship type rather than random Knot-Work and Navigation).

After that, the Advantages/Disadvantages need a look too. Like, there are some obviously missing Advantages (flat Initiative bonus, Fearless, and "Sage for the Games Skill"), while others are kind of odd (Luck is OP, Wealthy is weird) - same goes with Disadvantages.

One thing to bring up, as I personally find it a rather annoying problem: the Skill list is in a need of rework/cleanup. Like, some of the Mastery Abilities can be reworked (especially for Social Skills to be more meaningful, for Macro Skills to actually have an impact, and for some of the Weapon Skills to make sense - yes, I'm looking at you Polearms and Spears), and some "missing" Skills should appear on the list (Acrobatics, Mechanics/Lock Picking) or get the upgrade from Emphases to Skill (Interrogation, Navigation). Some additional Emphases would be cool too (like any for Defense) while others need some rework (Sailing should have Emphases per ship type rather than random Knot-Work and Navigation).

After that, the Advantages/Disadvantages need a look too. Like, there are some obviously missing Advantages (flat Initiative bonus, Fearless, and "Sage for the Games Skill"), while others are kind of odd (Luck is OP, Wealthy is weird) - same goes with Disadvantages.

I don't expect any of the older skills to remain the same under the new system (whatever it becomes).

One thing to bring up, as I personally find it a rather annoying problem: the Skill list is in a need of rework/cleanup. Like, some of the Mastery Abilities can be reworked (especially for Social Skills to be more meaningful, for Macro Skills to actually have an impact, and for some of the Weapon Skills to make sense - yes, I'm looking at you Polearms and Spears), and some "missing" Skills should appear on the list (Acrobatics, Mechanics/Lock Picking) or get the upgrade from Emphases to Skill (Interrogation, Navigation). Some additional Emphases would be cool too (like any for Defense) while others need some rework (Sailing should have Emphases per ship type rather than random Knot-Work and Navigation).

After that, the Advantages/Disadvantages need a look too. Like, there are some obviously missing Advantages (flat Initiative bonus, Fearless, and "Sage for the Games Skill"), while others are kind of odd (Luck is OP, Wealthy is weird) - same goes with Disadvantages.

I don't expect any of the older skills to remain the same under the new system (whatever it becomes).

I expect FFG's L5R to be 4.5 edition rather than a completely new system. Most of it will be just ctrl-c + ctrl-v stuff with a few minor modifications (mostly around the advanced mechanics, like Mass Battle). There is simply no reason to change the current system, and I can't see FFG putting much effort into it either.

This will be like Dark Heresy Second Edition: the whole thing is in fact 'Only War: Inquisition Edition', even though Only War itself is 'Dark Heresy First Edition: Imperial Guard'.

I expect FFG's L5R to be 4.5 edition rather than a completely new system. Most of it will be just ctrl-c + ctrl-v stuff with a few minor modifications (mostly around the advanced mechanics, like Mass Battle). There is simply no reason to change the current system, and I can't see FFG putting much effort into it either.

This will be like Dark Heresy Second Edition: the whole thing is in fact 'Only War: Inquisition Edition', even though Only War itself is 'Dark Heresy First Edition: Imperial Guard'.

I really hope they'll do that way.

I think L5R4 has a good core which just needs a few very small tweaks here and there (and maybe a few optional sub-systems for crunch-lovers like me).

And, just to remain in theme of "The future of this rpg game"..., this morning this bloody video almost made me believe in it ....

John Wick is a delightful troll.

Being said, 7th Sea getting the greenlight for several new games with cooperation between AEG and John Wick Studios probably is the signal that whatever form the L5R RPG next takes, it will not be Roll & Keep. John Wick is a veteran RPG designer, and JWS will likely be the one producing the RPG. AEG will handle the card and board games, though this does mean there is a good chance we will see a 7th Sea Expandable Card Game.

The game historically assumes a multi-clan party usually the Magistrate game. (I was reading the back section of Core). But I don't see why a book focusing on Mass Battles would prevent someone from doing Clan vs. Clan. You just need to make sure there is enough variety for an all Lion, or all Unicorn, etc game.

The main difficulty would be shugenja, since in setting, only the Dragon, Pheonix, and Mantis I think deploy shugenja in their armies on a regular basis.

And figuring out wether one can either find something to do for courtiers, or simply differentiating bushi that are soldiers/officers and those that are tacticians and messengers, and scouts.

Lion clan shugenja have their focus in battle magic. It is nonsensical for this to be the case and not have them used commonly as a battlefield resource. And though I don't own the entire edition, I have yet to see anything in 4th ed that counter acts this assumption.

Lion clan shugenja have their focus in battle magic. It is nonsensical for this to be the case and not have them used commonly as a battlefield resource. And though I don't own the entire edition, I have yet to see anything in 4th ed that counter acts this assumption.

"Although the Lion have a sizable shugenja family in the Kitsu, they have relatively few battlefield shugenja -- most Kitsu are priests who dedicate their lives to worshipping the ancestors, and only a small minority of their number serve in the army." -- Emerald Empire, p 235

"Their insular attitude combined with the Lion Clan's limited use of magic on the battlefield means the Kitsu family often appears irrelevant to daily life in the clan." -- Great Clans, p 117

Yeah, the Kitsu, despite having a Special Trick Only They Can Do actually continue the long Lion tradition of being the closest to a "default" on fulfilling their expected role in Rokugani culture.

A lot of the friction between the Lion and the Phoenix over the years(when not motivated by the Lion-Crane feud and the Phoenix's generally good relations with the Crane) has in fact been due to the Phoenix tossing priests onto the battlefield willy-nilly, which the Lion are Not Big On. Not least because it undercuts their own battlefield supremacy by injecting elements they can't always prepare for, but, you know, keep that part under your hat...

Lion clan shugenja have their focus in battle magic. It is nonsensical for this to be the case and not have them used commonly as a battlefield resource. And though I don't own the entire edition, I have yet to see anything in 4th ed that counter acts this assumption.

"Although the Lion have a sizable shugenja family in the Kitsu, they have relatively few battlefield shugenja -- most Kitsu are priests who dedicate their lives to worshipping the ancestors, and only a small minority of their number serve in the army." -- Emerald Empire, p 235

"Their insular attitude combined with the Lion Clan's limited use of magic on the battlefield means the Kitsu family often appears irrelevant to daily life in the clan." -- Great Clans, p 117

This also had to do with the battlefield, not necessarily the lower scale conflicts of a RPG party. Besides, why not just do what the ccg did and have your Kitsu shugenja just summon up some ancestors to kick butt and take names for you?

Besides, why not just do what the ccg did and have your Kitsu shugenja just summon up some ancestors to kick butt and take names for you?

Because apart from solely CCG mechanics late-Celestial through the end of AEG's run on the CCG, that's not what the Kitsu actually do.

Hell, until Evil Portents' flavor text, there wasn't even fluff depiction of embodied Ancestors actually fighting.

Lion clan shugenja have their focus in battle magic. It is nonsensical for this to be the case and not have them used commonly as a battlefield resource. And though I don't own the entire edition, I have yet to see anything in 4th ed that counter acts this assumption.

"Although the Lion have a sizable shugenja family in the Kitsu, they have relatively few battlefield shugenja -- most Kitsu are priests who dedicate their lives to worshipping the ancestors, and only a small minority of their number serve in the army." -- Emerald Empire, p 235

"Their insular attitude combined with the Lion Clan's limited use of magic on the battlefield means the Kitsu family often appears irrelevant to daily life in the clan." -- Great Clans, p 117

This also had to do with the battlefield, not necessarily the lower scale conflicts of a RPG party. Besides, why not just do what the ccg did and have your Kitsu shugenja just summon up some ancestors to kick butt and take names for you?

I think interpreting that as "the Kitsu totally take part in skirmishes; they just don't go out with the armies for the big events" requires a bit of willful revision, especially in the context of all the other quotes in 4e which talk about how most shugenja don't engage in combat (a few families being notable exceptions).

As for doing what the CCG did, that would require RPG mechanics to make such things easier than they currently are.

Lion clan shugenja have their focus in battle magic. It is nonsensical for this to be the case and not have them used commonly as a battlefield resource. And though I don't own the entire edition, I have yet to see anything in 4th ed that counter acts this assumption.

"Although the Lion have a sizable shugenja family in the Kitsu, they have relatively few battlefield shugenja -- most Kitsu are priests who dedicate their lives to worshipping the ancestors, and only a small minority of their number serve in the army." -- Emerald Empire, p 235

"Their insular attitude combined with the Lion Clan's limited use of magic on the battlefield means the Kitsu family often appears irrelevant to daily life in the clan." -- Great Clans, p 117

This also had to do with the battlefield, not necessarily the lower scale conflicts of a RPG party. Besides, why not just do what the ccg did and have your Kitsu shugenja just summon up some ancestors to kick butt and take names for you?

I think interpreting that as "the Kitsu totally take part in skirmishes; they just don't go out with the armies for the big events" requires a bit of willful revision, especially in the context of all the other quotes in 4e which talk about how most shugenja don't engage in combat (a few families being notable exceptions).

As for doing what the CCG did, that would require RPG mechanics to make such things easier than they currently are .

I fully expect FFG to make the mechanics easier, both for the lcg and the rpg (if they do one).

The RPG actually has an alternate path that does in fact allow a Kitsu to summon an ancestor. Just as they added one so the Kitsune can summon animal spirits as per the CCG.

The RPG would be far better served by making design and decisions on its own merits, and not attempting to ape the more outrageous aspects of the CCG.

(Note I'm not making any comment on what might or might not be "outrageous".)

Ooh, we're talking about Kitsu now? Hooray!

The Kitsu have certainly been known to travel with Lion armies, and provide assistance of one form or another. In A Lion's Honour, they provide magical concealment for the Lion troops so that they can ambush the Tsuno when they inevitably get betrayed over Akodo's remains. They can also heal, provide moral support or guidance, perform cleansing and funerary rites, and otherwise indirectly assist their soldiers. However, in no canon instance of which I am aware do they actually use their magic offensively, and the Lion are as scrupulous as any - possibly only the Crane are more so - in following the protocol of inviting any and all shugenja to leave the battlefield under safe passage before actual combat begins.

There are a number of reasons for this:

1) The Kitsu (and Lion) consider the kami too sacred to be used to inflict harm.

2) The Lion do not have a particularly large number of shugenja, and the blood of the First Five is irreplaceable, so any casualty suffered hurts them more than it would hurt any other Clan.

3) The Lion can reasonably expect to win a straight fight against any given enemy, so it is in their interest to discourage the use of shugenja.

As Gunichi says, the Lion have fought multiple wars with the Phoenix over the use of shugenja in combat (Three Stone River and Yuniri's war come to mind immediately), justified on the basis of 1) above.

It is true that the Lion do possess shugenja who fight as soldiers (Bishamon's Chosen). However, it is worth noting that even these shugenja don't use the kami themselves as weapons - if we look at their RPG technique, they use the kami to empower themselves and those around them (no spell with the Battle keyword actually inflicts direct harm on enemies), and that seems to be true to the fluff - so the Lion still don't violate their principle 1).

Additionally, it should be noted that not all Lion shugenja are equal- there is a vast difference between the treatment of those with the capacity to become Sodan-Senzo, and those without (since the capacity is based on blood, and manifests itself early if at all, it is possible to make a clear-cut distinction). In almost all cases, those who follow the armies would be those without the capacity to become Sodan-Senzo, as they are significantly more expendable, and their other duties to the Clan significantly less important (obviously the Lion still have need for normal priests, thereby reducing further still the number of shugenja who can join the armies, but Sodan-Senzo are simply much too valuable to be used in such a utilitarian manner). Secrets of the Lion indicates that it is not uncommon for the few Akodo who are born with the ability to speak to the kami to ignore it, in favour of following the way of the sword and their Ancestors, and this is seen as perfectly acceptable; by contrast, when a Kitsu with the capacity to become a Sodan-Senzo (Yukimira) chose to reject their heritage, they ended up struck from all historical and family records, which is pretty much the worst possible fate for a Lion.

Accordingly, the suggestion that the Kitsu can or should run around summoning Ancestors to fight for them, while recently present in the RPG, is nonsensical within the setting. The number of shugenja who could even do that at all is extremely limited, and those with sufficiently strong Kitsu blood to do it effectively are also much, much, much, too valuable to the Lion to be used in that way. Furthermore, the Ancestors are absolutely not tools to be used in the service of the living; they are honoured, respected, venerated, not summoned like Pokemon to fight wars. If a Kitsu has the capacity to actually physically summon an Ancestor, it should be done only in times of dire need for guidance, and the spirit should be treated with the utmost sanctity. Notably, even the CCG seems to be aware of this, in the flavour text- among the recent Kitsu: Kitsu Leiko acknowledges that the Sodan-Senzo should not be used in war; both she and Kitsu Miro suggest that the impetus came from the spirits themselves; and the vast majority of the others aren't shown using the Ancestors for war at all. Kitsu Kouki and Kitsu Sorano are the only cards in which Kitsu are shown (or implied to be) summoning Ancestors to fight for them on their own initiative, and both cases are clearly implied to be self-defence (a group of enemies attacking a lone shugenja).

In short: there are some Lion shugenja who follow the armies. However, their use is severely restricted by Lion traditional piety, their numbers are small, and they do not include the Lion's most valuable shugenja.

I've played a pure-blooded Kitsu shugenja in 4E and had great fun priesting about, lore-ing it up about the spirit realms, communing with anxious kami, lecturing people about their duties to their ancestors, strenuously resisting social change, and sententiously quoting Akodo (who for my purposes was a remorseless plagiarist of Confucius and Mencius) at the drop of a hat. I healed people, and put out fires sometimes. It was indeed probably the closest to an archetypal shugenja-according-to fluff I've ever come, and lots of fun.

However, this is also why I remember that Kitsu get their Free Raise on spells with, of all things, the Battle keyword, I guess because LION RAWR and/or it was almost 5 PM on a Friday and nobody had a better idea? (Idanthyrsus, I'm not sure where you get "no spell with the Battle keyword actually inflicts direct harm on enemies" but I'm afraid it's just not the case--that character definitely had Strike of the Tsunami and cast it with her FR, and Katana of Fire and Burning Kiss of Fire are Battle-tagged too.) Kitsu are in fact a great example of that internal inconsistency issue cropping up. Most non-timeline-specific fluff says they're conservative priests with low population numbers and little direct involvement in war; CCG fiction has them doin' stuff in battle because battle is the Lion thing and if everybody else is using magic it would hardly do to have the Lion being shown up by other clans; the 4E corebook tries to split the difference by giving them an ancestor-related technique--but also giving the school a rank of Battle skill and not one of Lore: Ancestors or Lore: Spirit Realms, saying "their secondary focus is on large-scale magic that can be applied in battle..." and adding that Battle-tag FR, to general confusion.

Locustshell- I don't disagree with you at all, that the presentation of the Kitsu is schizophrenic at best, between their supposed place in the setting, their mechanics, and their CCG presentation. As you say, that Kitsu don't get at least one of Lore: Ancestors or Lore: Spirit Realms is crazy, given their other skills. You are also correct about the Battle spells- I had forgotten that some of them do, and readily admit my error, though the bulk of them are still dedicated to supporting/strengthening allies (or oneself), rather than direct combat. Either way, my mistake, but I think the points - that Kitsu can go to battle, but under a range of restrictions; that their primary function is as religious and spiritual guides; and that their presentation is confusingly contradictory depending on what one looks at (hell, one could even look at previous editions) - stand, and I think it's fair to say that we agree on them?