L5R is not a video game. In my opinion, talent trees have no place there.

I can totally understand abilities with prerequisites (before taking this kata, you need this other kata, etc.), but taking SW has an example, you have abilities that are thematically related to another, but it doesn't make sense you have to choose them in a specific order.

''Why can't I choose this cool ability before having to increase my wounds, get another ability I do not want who have absolutly no relation to the first one and increase my proficiency with blasters?''

If the answer is balance, there are many ways to balance things and forcing players to get abilities they do not want is bad design.

Technically you have had that in every L5R edition previously. You just maybe didn't notice it because you were stuck on a single linear tree progression instead of a branching one. Probably every bushi or courtier or ninja school had techniques that you wouldn't want that didn't want at lower levels that didn't always directly impact the ones you wanted at higher levels.

Really, though, the progression of your techniques is going to be "video game like" regardless because all video game progressions are just table top progressions done smoothly and with more freedom to innovate and experiment than table top games get to. Dismissing talent trees because you first encountered them in video games? You might as well say "you want to put a table of contents in the book?! that's a terrible idea! Books aren't webpages!!" The only thing I can think of that would be really too 'video game' like would be if your skill progression was based on how many times you used the skill. That is the only system that would not work out as well or better in table top than in electronic games. After all, it is all good to say that you feel it is natural that people get better at a skill by practicing the skill as opposed to utilizing other unrelated skills, but how much of your game time do you really want to see players having their characters practice their skills to hone them rather than using them as needed?

That being said-- naturally talent tree branches with prerequisites should by all means have prerequisites be related to the later skills. If you want to learn how to fire two arrows a turn, you first need to learn how to draw your arrows quickly. If you want the technique to brace your spear against a horse, you need to learn the spear formation ability first.

Basically prerequisite techniques should be used only when higher level techniques are both better versions of lower level techniques and a bit strong for their "tier".

Although, generally, looking at the Star Wars RPG books, I see a lot here that could be adapted for L5R without too much extra work. There are some fundamental problems with the L5R mechanical system that would be fixed by moving over to a different mechanical system (i.e. the god stat problem, the useless skills that cost the same as critical ones, the fact that skills were functionally useless for their cost compared to attributes, the fact that some schools were far too powerful while others offered nothing of value, etc.)

Too many of the mechanics in 4E feel like they were put there because they seemed "interesting" and "unique" without ever really bothering to question as to whether they were properly modeling the world they were supposedly crafted to model. The way the attributes were set up for instance really shut out a lot of character concepts without much good reason behind it. When it is absolutely essential for your sickly healing shugenja needs to buy up her strength score in order to enhance her spell levels... you can be sure the cart was put before the horse when it came to designing the game mechanics.

As it stands, 4th edition was touted as L5R your way. Now, we are looking forward to the 5th edition of Five Rings. Tell me whether this is fate that the community finally has a chance to completely influence what comes. I think it is.

That would require "the community" to present a unified voice for what they want Rokugan and the game system to be.

These threads make it clear that's not going to happen.

Very much this. It has been my experience that this is largely tied to how and when someone got into the game.

I got into 4th and so that is the setting that has been sold to me and I have had arguments/discussions about how the setting that 4th sells isn't the ACTUAL setting of the game because out of print books from previous editions that i can't get a hold of should somehow be required reading.

It also depends on what you want. I want a game where Shugenja are not mechanically superior to every other character option, mostly because the venues I play in are all PVP friendly and **** it I like bushi, and don't want to feel like a chump for choosing to play one.

With this being the 5th edition, it could be completely thematic, with this edition geared toward Void. Yes, that means that it would be the All and Nothing Edition

I love legend of the five rings as a product. However, simply releasing a product to release a product is not something that should be done. Thus, Fifth edition should be the edition to complete all editions. As such, this should be the comprehensive transitional complete edition.

I have given this alot of thought, and this would be a good way to say goodbye to the old ways, and possibly taking everything back to basics so that a solid foundation can be established. From that solid foundation, you have a better footing to expand upon.

Looking at over how to do it using the Star Wars system a bit deeper

Duty translates perfectly.

For the attributes you can have

Brawn - Raw muscle

Agility - Hand-eye coordination

Reflexes - Reacting quickly to changing conditions

Knowledge - How much the individual actually know, the raw power of the mind

Insight - The ability to perceive the world and react to it quickly

Presence - General force of personality

Looking at over how to do it using the Star Wars system a bit deeper

[Rest remove to prevent too much spaces in the post]

I see one big flaw from your idea and by accepting this flaw basically remove the main reason I like L5R that much. Clan and Family signatures schools. To be honest, RPG with "Generic Carreers/Classes" is fairly common and L5R is one of the very few that didn't go that way and kept their very own identity. By removing this feature, I honestly think that I'll stick to the 4th edition because it's well done, even with the small flaws in it, flaws easily patchable with houserules.

I've said several time that I'm not against a few generic schools as long as the current school system is kept. Which allows a player to create a Crab Duelist with the generic Duelist School, a player to create a Lion Yojimbo with the generic Yojimbo School, etc. And this keeps the signature school of the Hida Bushi and the Akodo Bushi without removing their identity.

Creating a huge "Technique" bundle removes that identity. The reason that a lot of players are very attracted toward a Clan, it's not only for the Clan mentality but also for their signature schools. The idea of removing the schools and create a "carreer" system like the Star Wars system simply doesn't work for me. Why? Because the Star Wars universe doesn't have specific "carreer" identity for a specific race. Any race can be a smuggler for example and it's fine. But in L5R, where the universe is based on traditions and a great respect toward the teaching of their very own ancestors, it doesn't fit to remove these.

It doesn't fit because the Akodo Family wants to be like their founder Akodo, fight like him, learn through Akodo's teachings. I've picked Akodo but the same goes with every other Family's signature school. Sure, there's some wierd schools based on the CCG, but I'm only talking about the iconic and signature schools, which was there since the very first edition.

So yeah, I'm totally against your idea because it would feel like a "Generic RPG with a samurai theme" and not L5R anymore.

Looking at over how to do it using the Star Wars system a bit deeper

[Rest remove to prevent too much spaces in the post]

I see one big flaw from your idea and by accepting this flaw basically remove the main reason I like L5R that much. Clan and Family signatures schools. To be honest, RPG with "Generic Carreers/Classes" is fairly common and L5R is one of the very few that didn't go that way and kept their very own identity. By removing this feature, I honestly think that I'll stick to the 4th edition because it's well done, even with the small flaws in it, flaws easily patchable with houserules.

I've said several time that I'm not against a few generic schools as long as the current school system is kept. Which allows a player to create a Crab Duelist with the generic Duelist School, a player to create a Lion Yojimbo with the generic Yojimbo School, etc. And this keeps the signature school of the Hida Bushi and the Akodo Bushi without removing their identity.

Creating a huge "Technique" bundle removes that identity. The reason that a lot of players are very attracted toward a Clan, it's not only for the Clan mentality but also for their signature schools. The idea of removing the schools and create a "carreer" system like the Star Wars system simply doesn't work for me. Why? Because the Star Wars universe doesn't have specific "carreer" identity for a specific race. Any race can be a smuggler for example and it's fine. But in L5R, where the universe is based on traditions and a great respect toward the teaching of their very own ancestors, it doesn't fit to remove these.

It doesn't fit because the Akodo Family wants to be like their founder Akodo, fight like him, learn through Akodo's teachings. I've picked Akodo but the same goes with every other Family's signature school. Sure, there's some wierd schools based on the CCG, but I'm only talking about the iconic and signature schools, which was there since the very first edition.

So yeah, I'm totally against your idea because it would feel like a "Generic RPG with a samurai theme" and not L5R anymore.

You are overlooking something here.

You know what makes the school system broken? The lack of any sort of base.

Let's take the Crane Clan.

The world that is attempting to be modeled, within the Crane Clan you DO have specialist archers, you DO have specialist cavalry, you DO have scouts. Every samurai from every clan is supposed to be able to be these things which were handed entirely to single clans due to the short-sighted and myopic manner in which the school system forced things to be done. There is no question about this. They are depicted in the artwork. In fact, while the Kakita Duelists and Iron Warriors may be those they are most proud of, not every member of the Crane Clan who is a bushi is defined by those two schools. In fact, those schools are a very small number of the overall spectrum of training one receives.

Not true in the RPG. The RPG royally screws this up. Within the RPG, if you are not a Wasp Clan member, you cannot be a specialist archer. EVER. Not unless your background says you trained with them. You absolutely, positively can never be a cavalryman unless you are a member of the Unicorn clan. It is fundamentally impossible to ever be one. Unless you background says you trained with the Unicorn. And you absolutely have to be a Crab if you are a scout.

Instead, in the RPG, if you are a Crane Bushi then you either a Kakita Duelist or an Iron Warrior. There is no other possibility unless you trained abroad. Even though we can be absolutely certain that not all Crane that fill that role train abroad. So the entirety of the Crane Clan is now made up of what used to be the two unusual schools they were proud of rather than the bulk which fell along the various spectrum of training as the world was SUPPOSED to be.

Furthermore, the school system was fundamentally set up to fail by being stupidly myopic. There are only so many ways within a system of "roll this skill and try to reach this target number" that you can alter that-- you can change the number of dice rolled, you can add a static number, you can decrease the target number.... really there is only so much you could do.

Which means when you settle on deciding to use a system where you ought to have dozens of schools trying to teach some similar things, insisting on using a model where every single school needs to have 5 distinct mechanics that once assigned to one school can never appear that way in any other school ever... well, what is naturally going to happen is that the schools made first are going to have the most sensible, simple, ideal mechanical ways to get to your result... and every other school that subsequently is trying to do the same thing has to come up with more and more ludicrous ways of arriving at what is intended to be the same result.

It was simply a crap way to do things and the most schools they added, the more it became ever more clearly so.

But you are afraid they would lose their "specialness" even if the family and clan starts you off with a bonus attribute point and bonus skills... There is another way of doing it that can reach the result without imbalancing the game.

Start with the basic array of training, the basic class models. The specialty schools are not the sole proprietors of techniques though, they are schools that offer the same technique as every other school that does the same thing plus a bit extra.

So how do you mode this? Well, if you are a student of that school, you have an extra talent in the appropriate specialty or maybe even an extra talent per tier that you are able to purchase. Others with the same specialty who are not in that school have the option to purchase other techniques in that specialty (or even outside the specialty) so although they might not have access to the unique technique, they don't lose out on so much as to make them functionally useless as in the L5R RPG 4E.

Which means that like in the story of L5R, you can ACTUALLY have a Unicorn duelist. Not just "yeah, I have a few skill points there but since I don't have the techniques that are so ludicrously powerful that skill rolls means nothing" so called 'Unicorn Duelist', but an ACTUAL Unicorn Duelist who maybe they don't have that unique Kakita or Mirumoto talent, but they have other general dueling talents that at least give them a fair shot to potentially win the tournament... which allows the historical wins to make some sort of sense as they never remotely have when modeled via the way the broken aspects of 4E cause things to pan out.

I see one big flaw from your idea and by accepting this flaw basically remove the main reason I like L5R that much. Clan and Family signatures schools. To be honest, RPG with "Generic Carreers/Classes" is fairly common and L5R is one of the very few that didn't go that way and kept their very own identity. By removing this feature, I honestly think that I'll stick to the 4th edition because it's well done, even with the small flaws in it, flaws easily patchable with houserules.

I've said several time that I'm not against a few generic schools as long as the current school system is kept. Which allows a player to create a Crab Duelist with the generic Duelist School, a player to create a Lion Yojimbo with the generic Yojimbo School, etc. And this keeps the signature school of the Hida Bushi and the Akodo Bushi without removing their identity.

Creating a huge "Technique" bundle removes that identity. The reason that a lot of players are very attracted toward a Clan, it's not only for the Clan mentality but also for their signature schools. The idea of removing the schools and create a "carreer" system like the Star Wars system simply doesn't work for me. Why? Because the Star Wars universe doesn't have specific "carreer" identity for a specific race. Any race can be a smuggler for example and it's fine. But in L5R, where the universe is based on traditions and a great respect toward the teaching of their very own ancestors, it doesn't fit to remove these.

It doesn't fit because the Akodo Family wants to be like their founder Akodo, fight like him, learn through Akodo's teachings. I've picked Akodo but the same goes with every other Family's signature school. Sure, there's some wierd schools based on the CCG, but I'm only talking about the iconic and signature schools, which was there since the very first edition.

So yeah, I'm totally against your idea because it would feel like a "Generic RPG with a samurai theme" and not L5R anymore.

I'm quoting myself to place the emphasis on something that you seemed to miss on my opinion.

In my suggestion, it keeps the atmosphere. A Kakita may take the Generic Scout School, which will be a bit weaker than the Hiruma Scout, but it keeps the atmosphere. What atmosphere? The atmosphere of the Crab going into a Generic Duelist School should have to fight an uphill battle. And by ADDING (I always prefer to add than remove stuffs) these generic schools, you send the messages that yes, there is all kind of Bushi in an army, but they aren't the pride of the Clan.

That being said, I'll stop talking about it because we'll never agree on this. If I want to play a game based on Samurai, I won't need L5R for that, I could just use the BESM system and this allows to build your character like you want. But I want L5R to keep its distinct identity.

I think a compromise would work pretty well here. Release the core book with the iconic schools as normal. You know, Kakita Duelist, Isawa Shugenja, etc. Then in a supplement, preferably one of the earlier ones, release a bunch of clanless schools to fill in the edges. "Yojimbo", "Archer", "Merchant", etc. They could double as Ronin schools, even.

The only drawback I can see is that this might delay or prevent the release of some of the less iconic schools, like Agasha Shugenja or Shinjo Magistrate. Would you guys feel it's worth it?

I see one big flaw from your idea and by accepting this flaw basically remove the main reason I like L5R that much. Clan and Family signatures schools. To be honest, RPG with "Generic Carreers/Classes" is fairly common and L5R is one of the very few that didn't go that way and kept their very own identity. By removing this feature, I honestly think that I'll stick to the 4th edition because it's well done, even with the small flaws in it, flaws easily patchable with houserules.

I've said several time that I'm not against a few generic schools as long as the current school system is kept. Which allows a player to create a Crab Duelist with the generic Duelist School, a player to create a Lion Yojimbo with the generic Yojimbo School, etc. And this keeps the signature school of the Hida Bushi and the Akodo Bushi without removing their identity.

Creating a huge "Technique" bundle removes that identity. The reason that a lot of players are very attracted toward a Clan, it's not only for the Clan mentality but also for their signature schools. The idea of removing the schools and create a "carreer" system like the Star Wars system simply doesn't work for me. Why? Because the Star Wars universe doesn't have specific "carreer" identity for a specific race. Any race can be a smuggler for example and it's fine. But in L5R, where the universe is based on traditions and a great respect toward the teaching of their very own ancestors, it doesn't fit to remove these.

It doesn't fit because the Akodo Family wants to be like their founder Akodo, fight like him, learn through Akodo's teachings. I've picked Akodo but the same goes with every other Family's signature school. Sure, there's some wierd schools based on the CCG, but I'm only talking about the iconic and signature schools, which was there since the very first edition.

So yeah, I'm totally against your idea because it would feel like a "Generic RPG with a samurai theme" and not L5R anymore.

I'm quoting myself to place the emphasis on something that you seemed to miss on my opinion.

In my suggestion, it keeps the atmosphere. A Kakita may take the Generic Scout School, which will be a bit weaker than the Hiruma Scout, but it keeps the atmosphere. What atmosphere? The atmosphere of the Crab going into a Generic Duelist School should have to fight an uphill battle. And by ADDING (I always prefer to add than remove stuffs) these generic schools, you send the messages that yes, there is all kind of Bushi in an army, but they aren't the pride of the Clan.

That being said, I'll stop talking about it because we'll never agree on this. If I want to play a game based on Samurai, I won't need L5R for that, I could just use the BESM system and this allows to build your character like you want. But I want L5R to keep its distinct identity.

You seem to be fundamentally against generic schools existing if the rest of your statement is to be believed.

Look, within L5R on the level of a narrative story, I don't believe it is so much impossible for someone to from the "wrong" clan to be competitive in a field as you seem to think it should be-- or at least as far as 4E forces it to be.

Rather, it seems to me that what happens is that certain clans get maybe an early advantage in certain fields that ends up getting ironed out as they get more experienced. Duelists seem the easiest thing to relate to this... sure, if you have a bunch of rookies aligned, the one from the Crane Clan will probably win. But once you are talking about the best experienced members that all the clans have to offer, the Scorpion or Phoenix member has every bit the chance of winning as the Crane does.

But the 4E school system royally screws that up. Instead what is models is that at the lowest levels, there is a half-decent chance of over-coming the Crane's advantage. At the highest levels though, screw you to hell for even remotely thinking of trying to face any high level Crane in a duel because you basically automatically lose before any dice are even rolled.

It is the precise opposite of what is meant to be modeled. Because the school system of giving complete ownership of things to one particular school and demanding that any other person from any other family find a uniquely different mechanic of maybe, possible achieving a similar result is absolute garbage.

Any system that better models the "anyone from any clan can be an archer, but if you are from the Wasp clan, you get an easier start encouraging you to take this path" is far superior to a system where unless you are a Tsuruchi, you will never possibly get the necessary techniques to be remotely functional as an archer. And the further you advance in rank, the more functionally useless you become as one.

Side note, if anyone wants to be heretical with me and talk about replacing R&K, join me on this thread:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/218623-rpg-are-we-married-to-rk/?p=2192284

Dunno if that's a clickable link; I'm using the mobile interface.

The thing is, if one is moving to a system already owned by FFG rather than keeping the broken system L5R has previously been poorly modeled under , it would be much easier to start with a generally approach that any clan can have any of the basic roles and then giving specific clans special advantages through unique purchasable talents/techniques rather than starting by insisting every person from every clan fit into a single specific mold and then trying to expand those roles so that other clans can take them.

May I ask why you like L5R? I'm asking because by reading what I've highlighted and seeing that each edition from the first has been done the same way, I wouldn't even bothered about another edition of a game that I found "broken". That's why I left D&D, specially when I've tried other system. It's not bad to move on, or simply use the setting with a system of another game.

So yeah, I'm wondering why you like L5R?

Ultimately, this is becoming antagonistic.

No, L5R is not a generic Samurai game, nor should it be. However, proprietary specialization shouldn't exist either.

In all of this back and forth, again, something has been ignored. There are millions, if not billions of samurai in Rokugan. The way the school system is structured, most likely, would be something along the line of a "school" having multiple dojo, with one of these being designated as the main school. The further away from cities, towns and military installations one gets, the more likely one is to encounter a generalized school, or even a specialized school that doesn't belong in the stereotype of the clan's land that it is found in.

Take for instance, a ronin. An honorable ronin. He started out as a Disciple of Sun Tao. In Crane territory. Crane have a disliking of ronin, unless said ronin are saving their asses. Even then, it's a crapshoot. So, after dueling alot of Crane, he eventually learns to mimic part of their style. But, he doesn't like where he is, so he moves. He moves Dragon lands, because he enjoys relative peace. He makes a friend, and they practice. He takes what he has learned from watching and fighting the Crane, and uses it with what he already knows from Sun Tao, and picks up some of the Dragon's technique. He eventually combines the stuff he learned from the two, using it and practicing it until he can actually implement it with no thought or wasted effort. It becomes a technique. He continues this, picking up something from a Shiba Yojimbo and a Scorpion Yojimbo and combining the two, and so on. He eventually winds up retiring in Unicorn Lands, where, again, there is relative peace. He marries into the Shinjo Family to an ugly daughter who has no political standing whatsoever, and takes the name. His small dowry is used to establish a dojo. Thus, a new dojo for Shinjo samurai out in the ass end of nowhere, that can't get into a THE Shinjo Bushi school is created. Their focus is as yojimbo serving to Unicorns. They might get a bit of a boost from the Shinjo Magistrates, so that they can actually be of wider use to the clan, but all in all, they are a dueling school.

This, is a generic dueling academy. There are probably hundreds of them, if not thousands, across the face of Rokugan. The same goes for archery, and every other role that a bushi could possibly do under the sun. They are not THE Signature schools, or even the secondary family schools. However, noone is going to argue that their samurai need to be trained in something, and so long as the school covers the very basics of being a samurai, then they will most likely be able to operate. Its like the difference between going to A prestigious, world renowned Ivy League College, a very established well known state college, and a community college. In the end, the basics and prerequisites are the same. It's when you dig into the actual classes and specializations that things start getting different. This goes along with the ability to afford to attend said school.

As a matter of course, having generic schools is not bad. Even if it covers every basic character archetype. The fact of the matter is, when push comes to shove, nothing will stand against the Crane when it comes to dueling except for maybe the Mirumoto. But I can guarantee that a Generic Duelist would be able to put down a School focused on general soldiery in a duel, with no questions asked. As it should be.

Essentially put, being realistic, no one clan or family should monopolize any archetype. It should be available to everyone, even if it isn't as good as the most bad ass school in that field.

Ultimately, this is becoming antagonistic.

No, L5R is not a generic Samurai game, nor should it be. However, proprietary specialization shouldn't exist either.

In all of this back and forth, again, something has been ignored. There are millions, if not billions of samurai in Rokugan. The way the school system is structured, most likely, would be something along the line of a "school" having multiple dojo, with one of these being designated as the main school. The further away from cities, towns and military installations one gets, the more likely one is to encounter a generalized school, or even a specialized school that doesn't belong in the stereotype of the clan's land that it is found in.

Take for instance, a ronin. An honorable ronin. He started out as a Disciple of Sun Tao. In Crane territory. Crane have a disliking of ronin, unless said ronin are saving their asses. Even then, it's a crapshoot. So, after dueling alot of Crane, he eventually learns to mimic part of their style. But, he doesn't like where he is, so he moves. He moves Dragon lands, because he enjoys relative peace. He makes a friend, and they practice. He takes what he has learned from watching and fighting the Crane, and uses it with what he already knows from Sun Tao, and picks up some of the Dragon's technique. He eventually combines the stuff he learned from the two, using it and practicing it until he can actually implement it with no thought or wasted effort. It becomes a technique. He continues this, picking up something from a Shiba Yojimbo and a Scorpion Yojimbo and combining the two, and so on. He eventually winds up retiring in Unicorn Lands, where, again, there is relative peace. He marries into the Shinjo Family to an ugly daughter who has no political standing whatsoever, and takes the name. His small dowry is used to establish a dojo. Thus, a new dojo for Shinjo samurai out in the ass end of nowhere, that can't get into a THE Shinjo Bushi school is created. Their focus is as yojimbo serving to Unicorns. They might get a bit of a boost from the Shinjo Magistrates, so that they can actually be of wider use to the clan, but all in all, they are a dueling school.

This, is a generic dueling academy. There are probably hundreds of them, if not thousands, across the face of Rokugan. The same goes for archery, and every other role that a bushi could possibly do under the sun. They are not THE Signature schools, or even the secondary family schools. However, noone is going to argue that their samurai need to be trained in something, and so long as the school covers the very basics of being a samurai, then they will most likely be able to operate. Its like the difference between going to A prestigious, world renowned Ivy League College, a very established well known state college, and a community college. In the end, the basics and prerequisites are the same. It's when you dig into the actual classes and specializations that things start getting different. This goes along with the ability to afford to attend said school.

As a matter of course, having generic schools is not bad. Even if it covers every basic character archetype. The fact of the matter is, when push comes to shove, nothing will stand against the Crane when it comes to dueling except for maybe the Mirumoto. But I can guarantee that a Generic Duelist would be able to put down a School focused on general soldiery in a duel, with no questions asked. As it should be.

Essentially put, being realistic, no one clan or family should monopolize any archetype. It should be available to everyone, even if it isn't as good as the most bad ass school in that field.

Reading this, it reminds me of something i've always wanted. A book per clan that basically gives rules for their version of how they do things. if nothing else, maybe alternate skill masteries for how say, a Lion clan archer is focused differently than a crane clan archer is focused differently than a Crab clan archer.

But I think this might be a good spot to put kata-like things.

if nothing else, maybe alternate skill masteries for how say, a Lion clan archer is focused differently than a crane clan archer is focused differently than a Crab clan archer.

Heh... This example is kinda funny because there is an existing mechanical difference between these three kinds of archers: Death Wind Marksman Advanced School for Lion, Asahina Archer Alternate Path for Crane, and Hiruma Sniper Alternate Path for Crab .

All of which are alternate / advanced schools, taken in lieu of or after the completion of other things.

if nothing else, maybe alternate skill masteries for how say, a Lion clan archer is focused differently than a crane clan archer is focused differently than a Crab clan archer.

Heh... This example is kinda funny because there is an existing mechanical difference between these three kinds of archers: Death Wind Marksman Advanced School for Lion, Asahina Archer Alternate Path for Crane, and Hiruma Sniper Alternate Path for Crab .

I've heard of the Hiruma one, but not the other two. What book did they show up in? I'd love to know more about the Lion one (especially considering how powerful the Rank one Akodo tech is for archery using flesh cutter arrows)

if nothing else, maybe alternate skill masteries for how say, a Lion clan archer is focused differently than a crane clan archer is focused differently than a Crab clan archer.

Heh... This example is kinda funny because there is an existing mechanical difference between these three kinds of archers: Death Wind Marksman Advanced School for Lion, Asahina Archer Alternate Path for Crane, and Hiruma Sniper Alternate Path for Crab .

I've heard of the Hiruma one, but not the other two. What book did they show up in? I'd love to know more about the Lion one (especially considering how powerful the Rank one Akodo tech is for archery using flesh cutter arrows)

The Crane is from the Book of Air, the Lion is from Sword and Fan maybe.

if nothing else, maybe alternate skill masteries for how say, a Lion clan archer is focused differently than a crane clan archer is focused differently than a Crab clan archer.

Heh... This example is kinda funny because there is an existing mechanical difference between these three kinds of archers: Death Wind Marksman Advanced School for Lion, Asahina Archer Alternate Path for Crane, and Hiruma Sniper Alternate Path for Crab .

I've heard of the Hiruma one, but not the other two. What book did they show up in? I'd love to know more about the Lion one (especially considering how powerful the Rank one Akodo tech is for archery using flesh cutter arrows)

The Crane is from the Book of Air, the Lion is from Sword and Fan maybe.

Didn't see it as a glanced through the mechanics chapter. Rather than one of us leafing through every book of the line to see the reference point, at all remember what it does enough for a quick synopsis?

I'm kind of surprised it hasn't been mentioned yet, but 3rd ed actually did have generic schools, they were just the same thing as the ronin ones. From the core rulebook, 3e:

The following ronin schools contain broad, basic Techniques that are not a result of formal training, but personal experience. These schools may be taken by any samurai, even those affiliated with a clan, without use of the Different Schools Advantage. In such cases, the schools simply represent a more intuitive path that a samurai has chosen to follow rather than an established style.

There were a few problems with it, though. There were only six schools, 3 for Bushi and 3 for Shugenja. The revised edition added the Master of Games Courtier School. So there wasn't enough room for generic magistrates, archers, or other archetypes.

Also, the ronin schools were weak enough that I've never had a player choose them, unless they were ronin (and thus had no other choice). If my experience is typical, it would explain why they dropped the idea for 4e.

if nothing else, maybe alternate skill masteries for how say, a Lion clan archer is focused differently than a crane clan archer is focused differently than a Crab clan archer.

Heh... This example is kinda funny because there is an existing mechanical difference between these three kinds of archers: Death Wind Marksman Advanced School for Lion, Asahina Archer Alternate Path for Crane, and Hiruma Sniper Alternate Path for Crab .

I've heard of the Hiruma one, but not the other two. What book did they show up in? I'd love to know more about the Lion one (especially considering how powerful the Rank one Akodo tech is for archery using flesh cutter arrows)

The Crane is from the Book of Air, the Lion is from Sword and Fan maybe.

Didn't see it as a glanced through the mechanics chapter. Rather than one of us leafing through every book of the line to see the reference point, at all remember what it does enough for a quick synopsis?

IIRC, it had a mechanic that let you exchange range for damage and vica versa, The school was tied to a CCG Ikoma character (yeah, it was one of those schools ).

"Advantages" are a very undervalued part of the System.

To customize schools we could expand them.

I homebrewed many of them giving very small things, not as good as techniques, but they give you more modularity and variety than just paths and Advanced schools.

I never understood why they did not do Dojo Advantages but decided to get rid of any dojo mechanics. Paying xp For them should have fixed tgeir brokeness.

Advantages could ripresent less dedication than paths but they can coexist.

Don't really have time to read through all 30 pages of this at the moment, but has the idea of base skill ranks come up? For example, you are a samurai of Rokugan, regardless of your dojo you have a minimum of Lore (Heraldry) 1. Just enough to identify a well-known Mon. Or Calligraphy 1 so that you don't leave your school unable to write.

Obviously this would be in addition to School ranks, but not unique to any school.

It might also require divorcing the game from the Insight system, or have characters start with a bit more. Neither of which I would lose any sleep over.

Don't really have time to read through all 30 pages of this at the moment, but has the idea of base skill ranks come up? For example, you are a samurai of Rokugan, regardless of your dojo you have a minimum of Lore (Heraldry) 1. Just enough to identify a well-known Mon. Or Calligraphy 1 so that you don't leave your school unable to write.

Obviously this would be in addition to School ranks, but not unique to any school.

It might also require divorcing the game from the Insight system, or have characters start with a bit more. Neither of which I would lose any sleep over.

To nitpick your Caligraphy question, all samurai are assumed to be able to write with sufficient legibility. The skill Calligraphy is about writing-as-art and ciphers.

Don't really have time to read through all 30 pages of this at the moment, but has the idea of base skill ranks come up?

Yes it did, either here or in another thread.

As someone who is into this Basic Skills business, all I can say is that XP not spent on the Basic Skills is XP spent on something else. You should really keep this in mind when you consider the idea of Basic Skills.

My take on basic knowledge? Do not make them skills. If a characters has points in history, he is a pro. He can name obscure personnalities and events. For the basic stuff any samurai should know, roll Intelligence/Insight Rank.

My take on basic knowledge? Do not make them skills. If a characters has points in history, he is a pro. He can name obscure personnalities and events. For the basic stuff any samurai should know, roll Intelligence/Insight Rank.

The problem is that skills have such a laughably insignificant impact on the actual rolls that these ultra-specialized so-called "experts" with even high skill ranks would be regularly outdone by completely untrained novices with just slightly better attributes.