Which brings me to something I think would be necessary in a 5th edition -- better scaling. The attack/defense/damage/soak relationship takes a dramatic and jarring turn between IR1 and IR5, and honestly I see that as a pretty big flaw.

I was thinking more along the line of a generic character rather than a task-specific one. Obviously, a yojimbo or an element-specialist shugenja would have slightly different priorities.

However, I would disagree that Earth is needed at low levels. At IR 1-2 (and maybe even 3) you are screwed when you take wounds anyway, the aim should be to not get hit. At higher levels, this becomes less relevant as attack outstrips defense while damage remains roughly the same (and damage effects become less jamming), but until then, Armor TN worth more than Wounds (unless you are building your character specifically for tanking Wounds for some reason). Even as a Yojimbo, Earth could be a trap as Wounds mean little when your enemy can Increase Damage/Feint because you have low ATN and they do even less against Grappling or when you have to switch to Defense/Full Defense Stance - not to mention that a Crippled/Down Yojimbo won't protect anyone.

This kinda brings the "theorycraft", which I hate doing by the way.

I'll take your example "Air -> Void -> Fire -> Water -> Earth is much closer to playable." Now, since you have low Earth, a Shugenja from safe distance may come and cast a simple Fury of Osano-Wo, since it by pass any ATN, you'll mostly end up getting high wound penalties before it can even attack which means that a highly wounded bushi is a bushi that will not hit anyone anymore.

I'll stop that right here, just to point out that I was fully aware of anything you've said about "a Crippled/down Yojimbo won't protect anyone" but it's the case for every character. Any crippled/down character won't do anything. But in my opinion, if the Yojimbo is crippled/down, he did his job because he was focused, it's to his teamates to do their job now. It may seems weird, but a yojimbo's job isn't always fun because he's mostly not going to deal damage.

However, my point was to address that fact that the specified cycle isn't really bad in play. It really depends on the character designs. If I would have to do a character doing a Earth, Air, Fire, Void, Water cycle, I would definitively create a Daidoji Iron Warrior and it wouldn't be a bad cycle for that character.

I'll take your example "Air -> Void -> Fire -> Water -> Earth is much closer to playable." Now, since you have low Earth, a Shugenja from safe distance may come and cast a simple Fury of Osano-Wo, since it by pass any ATN, you'll mostly end up getting high wound penalties before it can even attack which means that a highly wounded bushi is a bushi that will not hit anyone anymore.

If you are fighting a Shugenja with attack spells, then your low Earth should be the least problem. In this case, you need high Reflexes pronto to out-Initiative the Shugenja and all the Water Ring in the world to get out of range/LoS.

Which brings me to something I think would be necessary in a 5th edition -- better scaling. The attack/defense/damage/soak relationship takes a dramatic and jarring turn between IR1 and IR5, and honestly I see that as a pretty big flaw.

Agree on this. Scaling can definitely be improved. Especially on Samurai-vs-samurai combat.

I don't know that I would characterize it as "a dramatic and jarring turn" over a span of character XP long enough to fill an entire campaign :-P -- but yes, I do agree that things don't necessarily scale well in 4e. I'd call it about middle of the pack for that issue in RPGs overall, though; it's nowhere near as bad as Scion was (where your auto-successes from Epic Attributes shot up into the stratosphere, making a one-dot difference completely insurmountable).

No, it's nowhere near that bad.

The main thing seems to be that defense (of the "don't get hit" sort) doesn't go up nearly as fast as attack -- because there's no active/reactive defense, and passive defense only goes up with a single Ring unless the character is in a stance that renders them unable to physically attack.

Okay, so, while my gaming group was developing our homebrew system, we discovered a very interesting idea I would like to present here: a built-in Advantage every samurai/ronin character has from the beginning, lets call it Death Before Dishonor. What it does is that it allows the character to do something really-really awesome... but once it is done, the character dies and nothing can save him. Examples include a Full Attack Stance attack action that ignores all penalties, keeping the main support of a collapsing mine standing until the other PCs escape, or tossing a crystal block weighting several tons atop a Greater Shadowspawn - you will die in each case: once you have made the attack, your opponent will impale you; once your companions are out, the mine will collapse onto you; as the crystal block falls down, you will fall after it into your death. But this way, you are allowed to have a final act of defiance, or go out with a blaze of glory. Even more so, it would hard-wire heroic sacrifice into the game, something that I think is very thematic for L5R.

Anyway, this was inspired by the death of a PC not long ago. He rushed into a burning castle to save a child, only to be trapped with her (those were some pretty darn awful Athletics rolls he had there). Instead of seeking another exit, the player declared that his character would lift the ruined main gate just enough to let the child escape, even if would cost his life. He called for a Honor Roll because this act was very Courage+Duty, and the GM not only gave him that, but also allowed him to use the Rank 5 Technique of his school (he was a Rank 3 Shiba Bushi). So the player Void Nuke'd the roll, got 80+ and saved the girl, even though the burning castle collapsed on him not soon after. This was so cool we decided that it should be a basic option for every samurai.

Okay, so, while my gaming group was developing our homebrew system, we discovered a very interesting idea I would like to present here: a built-in Advantage every samurai/ronin character has from the beginning, lets call it Death Before Dishonor. What it does is that it allows the character to do something really-really awesome... but once it is done, the character dies and nothing can save him. Examples include a Full Attack Stance attack action that ignores all penalties, keeping the main support of a collapsing mine standing until the other PCs escape, or tossing a crystal block weighting several tons atop a Greater Shadowspawn - you will die in each case: once you have made the attack, your opponent will impale you; once your companions are out, the mine will collapse onto you; as the crystal block falls down, you will fall after it into your death. But this way, you are allowed to have a final act of defiance, or go out with a blaze of glory. Even more so, it would hard-wire heroic sacrifice into the game, something that I think is very thematic for L5R.

Anyway, this was inspired by the death of a PC not long ago. He rushed into a burning castle to save a child, only to be trapped with her (those were some pretty darn awful Athletics rolls he had there). Instead of seeking another exit, the player declared that his character would lift the ruined main gate just enough to let the child escape, even if would cost his life. He called for a Honor Roll because this act was very Courage+Duty, and the GM not only gave him that, but also allowed him to use the Rank 5 Technique of his school (he was a Rank 3 Shiba Bushi). So the player Void Nuke'd the roll, got 80+ and saved the girl, even though the burning castle collapsed on him not soon after. This was so cool we decided that it should be a basic option for every samurai.

There's already an option for Heroic Sacrifice in the core book.

Got to about the fourth page, and I decided to type out this post. I don't know what has been said or done. I don't want to sit here and read 500 posts either. I may be called a grognard for what I am about to type, and I may even get heckled. My opinions are far from what many would consider the mainstream. There is quite a bit of personal anecdote weaved into here, at least in the beginning, but, it is also the foundation for what I have to say.

It was summer of 96. With the release of it's latest block, I just got tired of That Other Game. I go to my LFGS, and I trade a friend some commons and uncommons of what I am playing, for a half proxy deck of what he is playing. I get a spare rulebook, learn the rules. I decide that day that L5R is wicked awesome. I dial up to the internet, and I begin to search for everything I can about L5R. I am enamored; consumed. I love this game. I love the flavor. I love the mechanics. I love it all. I join the newsgroup, join the ABC Webring after putting together a webpage (very rudimentary mind you, html 3 being what it was). I follow the game, all the way through time of the void. Rabid Fan. Traded in my Other Game card collection for nearly 25k of store credit. Bought myself and my game group everything we needed to play the CCG as well as the RPG. HE came out, I lost interest in the card game. Everything I had supported for almost 4 years got "messed up", storyline wise. The RPG? Well, it lost it's appeal except for the splat with the next edition that was released a few years later. No matter what, it never really came back. Some would say it was nostalgia. I would say different, due to the fact that I can return to those, the foundation of what L5R has become, and I can enjoy them better than any iteration that has been released since.

We, as a group, have changed. Some of us have gotten older. Some of us, have given up on one part of the game or the other. Some of us weren't even playing until recently, or a few years ago. The initial outline proposed here, in my opinion, was an excellent foundation. Still is. By page 4, in my opinion, we started getting lost the way the devs got lost: In the details. In our favorites. In our particular niche.

The first edition core covered shugenja and bushi. Ninja were a GM optional thing. The system was simplistic, yet, that was it's greatest draw. The system was merely a framework. You could fill in everything else. 1st edition was the Wild West of L5R RPG. The splat books came, and for the most part, they maintained this design theory. They were merely filling out the framework. Nothing more, nothing less. Of course, they added quite a bit of fluff. They seemed completely contrary at points. However, that could be easily overlooked. You could drop a small piece of the framework, and it wouldn't break anything.

Second Edition. Designed for companion usage with That Other RPG System. The Splat books were pretty good. Some things that were completely niche were instituted. This was the first sense of special snowflake syndrome. Some things were introduced merely for flavor and different. They had no real use in any of the games I played, and I played in several. The Fluff was good, filling in the different customs and the like. But, the fluff? Framework of the setting. Usable. Needed. Customs and the like.

Third Edition. Ultra Crunchy. Designed for rules lawyering. Brought us up to date with the CCG. Added a little bit of framework. A whole lot more snowflake stuff than was necessary. The splat books were a bit useful, but they seemed to be more useful to that particular iteration of the RPG, than to the overall universal setting framework.

Fourth Edition. L5R your way. The best part of this edition, IMO, was the fill in from the archives. Rokugan had an actual history. Strongholds added a plausible way to reintroduce the Boar Clan... Little things that gave hope that the dev team finally got it.

Ultimately, it's my belief that Fifth Edition needs to be a reboot. It needs to return to simplicity. Shed some pounds. Become Lean and Mean and Pioneering again. Get rid of the minutia that even the members of this forum thread started getting caught up in. Drop all of the add on bonuses and go back to basic, simple skillsets. Remove the super niche schools. Iron out all of the inconsistencies, do actual streamlining of the system, but in such a way that makes sense.

I feel if this discussion is going to continue, then it should be done in the mind that L5R, or rather, the entire setting, falls apart when it is put under too close of scrutiny, due to all of the stuff that has been introduced over the years. Remodeling can only go so far, before a demolition is what is required.

Iron out all of the inconsistencies, do actual streamlining of the system, but in such a way that makes sense.

If we do this, then the resulting Rokugan will be very different than the one we have now.

Also, I'm not exactly sure that streamlining is such a good idea. Flavor is kinda important in this game, and if you want flavor while retaining the hard-earned consistency, then you have to expand the system with six-gorillion options (so that everyone can find their special snowflake wombo-combo) and not cut it back.

If we do this, then the resulting Rokugan will be very different than the one we have now.

Also, I'm not exactly sure that streamlining is such a good idea. Flavor is kinda important in this game, and if you want flavor while retaining the hard-earned consistency, then you have to expand the system with six-gorillion options (so that everyone can find their special snowflake wombo-combo) and not cut it back.

Or people could just reskin mechanics as appropriate for their character.

Just wanted to stick my head in and say that I hope everything is going well for everyone here.

I hit a point where I realized that I was putting a ton of mental energy into this expecting progress to result, when in reality there's never even going to be an agreed-upon starting point for what the world and the game are supposed to be, the oddness and kinks the the storycraft are here to stay, and therefore there's no much I can contribute.

Add to that the unlikeliness of me ever having a chance to get a group together for the game, and the utter lack of word out of FFG as to the fate of the RPG... and, well, I'm only going to get frustrated from the sense that I'm spinning my wheels.

If anyone wants to PM me for any reason, please please feel free. Take care of yourselves.

I can understand the frustration inherent and the desire to give up. Flatly speaking, I feel a few words need to be spoken to shed light on my stance further.

I was reading over things, and I realized what made first edition so attractive, at least to me. It has been the same for quite a few people over the years, with the different editions.

Many of the people within the L5R RPG community have come to it simply to have an anime like or feudal japanese setting play within. Still, others, were introduced to it through the card game. That, in and of itself is the crux. The card game nor the setting have never been dictated by the RPG, but the opposite is true. I myself enjoyed the CCG all the way up until Hidden Emperor. Many people I have spoken with enjoyed one story arc or another created within the CCG. However, most storylines within the CCG were manufactured in order to drive it forward, as well as continue to sell cards. There is nothing wrong with that. It's actually a fairly smart business model.

"You Like Playing as a Lion or Crane in the CCG? You can play it in the RPG! And Look, we'll even add that super special snowflake school for that super special snowflake CCG character that was actually nothing more than a reason to generate 1F/1C tokens that never progressed even into an experienced version!"

That may be a bit cynical, however, 20 years of experience playing the RPG tells me that the one time I saw someone play the aforementioned school, they did so with the specific reason of playing a character that was completely different, whose companions gave them a bit of a better chance of survival in a multi person conflict. However, it skewed the game for the rest of the group, as the GM had to come up with reasons to have said person even included in the standard play.

All in all, much of the flavor of one CCG edition of cards can be wholly abandoned, and much of the system that is left, is simply debris of some CCG mechanic. This leads into the fact that much of the RPG setting is dictated by the CCG and the outcomes of tournaments. Many of the plotdrivers, conflicts and alliances make little to no sense. There are huge gaps left where there shouldn't be, and when time should have passed, there is no passage.

Case in point: Following an extremely long story arc wherein Toturi is dishonored, made ronin, and then redeemed to become the Emperor at the head of an army of Ronin, his dynasty is almost immediately beset upon by a supernatural threat that technically has little to no place. If anything, the Kolat should have utilized the newly born age of man to extend and solidify their power. Using their agents and sleepers, Ronin should have been given a bit more status, wherein they weren't automagically equal to a clan samurai, but they were no longer derided as harshly. It's just a bit of fluff, and wouldn't have changed the mechanics of the card game one bit, while making the Toturi dynasty far more interesting than "He was kidnapped by a boogeyman, and driven crazy".

This has been told time and time again, with a different subject matter, everything from the Lion and Crane suddenly becoming allies, to the 4 Winds troubles. There are things that just don't make sense and could have been done better. All in all, the storyline at this point is what it is. It can be changed, but that would essentially reset everything, change history, and make about 15 years of storyline completely invalid. Not that that would be a bad thing, but it might seem throwing out the baby with the bath water to some, considering that there have been some actual awesome moments. However, the residuals of the CCG and it's effects upon the storyline can be handled in such a way as to make the system less tied to such a fickle thing as fiction specifically created for the purpose of being a contest prize.

Case in point: Following an extremely long story arc wherein Toturi is dishonored, made ronin, and then redeemed to become the Emperor at the head of an army of Ronin, his dynasty is almost immediately beset upon by a supernatural threat that technically has little to no place.

Stuff went downhill way before that IMHO. The seeds were sown with the Scorpion Clan Coup and the story was in a downward spiral since then. Naturally, the game mechanics only followed this drop of quality.

This leads into the fact that much of the RPG setting is dictated by the CCG and the outcomes of tournaments. Many of the plotdrivers, conflicts and alliances make little to no sense. There are huge gaps left where there shouldn't be, and when time should have passed, there is no passage.

I'm not denying the fact that the setting is dictated by the CCG, however, in my opinion, it's not a huge problem. Why do I feel like it's not a huge problem? Simply because the strongest point of a RPG Campaign is the story made by the Storyteller. There's parts that I don't like in the setting, what do I do in my game? I simply remove or modify that part in a way so it would make more sense. It's not really hard to do, in fact, its a 15 minutes pre-campaign preparation, then it only needs a small update to the players before their character creation.

This is also why I'm against and that I will always be against a clean reset, because I take the current setting and pick a part of it that I like as my starting point. Then I alter the storyline by removing what I don't like. It's nothing really difficult, in fact, I know a lot of people doing the same. Also, resetting the storyline will not solve anything, specially if the model keeps involving the communauty. I'm pretty sure it will turn out the same way, just in a different path.

Also, I would like to point out that it's fairly hard, if not impossible, to drive a storyline based on the RPG communauty. Because each campaign has their own branches. As I've said, I really like to change the storyline for my campaign, some uses it as a bible while others just don't even touch it with a stick. How can a storyteam can look at the RPG communauty to drive a storyline? I honestly don't see how, unless there's a system with campaign reports, it's nearly impossible, but this would also be a living hell to manage. The other way, is by creating some official campaigns but the results may be the same where a small group of people will dictate how the story is driven.

As I'm seeing FFG doesn't seem to be that close to their communauties, so it's already a huge assumption to think that the story model will stay the same. We might no longer have any influence at all to the storyline. There's not a lot of games that players had an impact on the official story. Both ways has their pros and cons.

I really like the freedom I have as a Storyteller because I'm using the official story as a tool to fill up my campaign and my players really enjoy it. I really like the freedom I have as a Storyteller because I house rule some rules that doesn't make much sense. It's easy to say that the quality is doing downward, that the game mechanics are doing downhill, instead of whining, I prefer polish them in order to get back to the basis of a game: Having fun.

What's wrong with using an edition that you prefer? Nothing at all. If someone wants to stick with the first edition, as long as he and his groups are having fun, it's fine! The same goes with the storyline, someone feels like the story beyond [ENTER_STORY_ARC_HERE] isn't good, then don't use the story beyond that arc. I even have ideas for campaigns in the pre-Clan War eras. That's a freedom the RPG communauty have.

Am I saying that it's perfect, heck no! It's far from being perfect, but it seems very "Black or White". At some points, it's not bad to ask ourselves: "Do we hate the game that much?" if the answer is yes, maybe it's time to move on. There's systems/games that I used to like and after a while, I've found out that I don't like it as I thought, I just moved on.

And that's if there is any sort of storyline involved.

If you look at their other card games, they mostly have a storyline that evolves beyond their control (Game of Thrones, Star Wars) or doesn't evolve at all (Call of Cthulhu). If they want to follow in AEG's footsteps, they will have to create a new story team, change how their Organized Play functions to incorporate story picks and many other elements I'm probably forgettting.

I truly hope they will continue to have an evolving story and tournament-based story decisions, but...

As for using the RPG community to drive the story, I know a few companies did that to some extent. For example, Shadowrun worked like that back in the day (not sure now). Every time you bought a premade scenario or downloaded the free Missions adventures, you had the opportunity to fill a survey after you ran the game, detailing the specifics of the missions (which NPC survived, which faction was backed by the players, did the villain escape, etc.). After a few months, they would simply select the choices who were made by the majority of the players and went on with it. I can totally see something like that implemented for L5R.

I was thinking about this after a few games recently. Which decks types should be present and which should be removed in this new game. Yes, I know that L5R might be different but various types of deck archetypes exist across most games from tempo, aggro, and control to combo. Should a generic rock/paper/scissors format be the norm? And so on.

I'm not denying the fact that the setting is dictated by the CCG, however, in my opinion, it's not a huge problem. Why do I feel like it's not a huge problem? Simply because the strongest point of a RPG Campaign is the story made by the Storyteller. There's parts that I don't like in the setting, what do I do in my game? I simply remove or modify that part in a way so it would make more sense. It's not really hard to do, in fact, its a 15 minutes pre-campaign preparation, then it only needs a small update to the players before their character creation.

Case in point: Following an extremely long story arc wherein Toturi is dishonored, made ronin, and then redeemed to become the Emperor at the head of an army of Ronin, his dynasty is almost immediately beset upon by a supernatural threat that technically has little to no place.

Stuff went downhill way before that IMHO. The seeds were sown with the Scorpion Clan Coup and the story was in a downward spiral since then. Naturally, the game mechanics only followed this drop of quality.

All in all, clean reset would occur due to Norikazu's ravings, and Kaede showing up with an elite task force to snuff out the lying darkness plot to kidnap Toturi. Go from there.

All in all, clean reset would occur due to Norikazu's ravings, and Kaede showing up with an elite task force to snuff out the lying darkness plot to kidnap Toturi. Go from there.

I think a clean reset should occur due to Bayushi Shoju realizing that he must ensue that the Hantei line will live forever (thus no "last Hantei" to ever occur) rather than literally turn the current emperor into the last Hantei and thus hilariously missing the whole point of his very own plan.

I'm not denying the fact that the setting is dictated by the CCG, however, in my opinion, it's not a huge problem. Why do I feel like it's not a huge problem? Simply because the strongest point of a RPG Campaign is the story made by the Storyteller. There's parts that I don't like in the setting, what do I do in my game? I simply remove or modify that part in a way so it would make more sense. It's not really hard to do, in fact, its a 15 minutes pre-campaign preparation, then it only needs a small update to the players before their character creation.

Not calling you out. I can understand this, as I often do it myself. The fact of the matter is, this only works with seasoned l5r players. Those that aren't seasoned, yet are seasoned tabletop rpg players, look at the core and splat books, and go "wtf?" So many potential people lost to the story.

That's why I said "It only needs a small update to the players before their character creation." If you don't warn your players before, yes they will go "Wtf?" but by warning them, there's no bad reactions. Then, we received some interesting alternate stories which may be interesting to do a campaign, for example, the Thousand Years of Darkness in the Imperial History, where the Seven Thunders failed. That's where the real potential is.

There's nothing more bored than a rigid storyline in a tabletop RPG. I'm not saying that the timeline is perfect, but when you look at it, it provides a lot of hooks to start a game. Why? Because of the same reasons you think it needs a clean reset. I found out after reading it that yes there's some wierd stuffs but instead of just complaining and/or completely ignoring it, I look at them as a campaign hook to start a game. For that reason, I would prefer a time jump instead. Leave the past as it is and start something new. Of course, this is assuming FFG will have a L5R storyteam. So far, it's inexistant.

This is something that I keep wondering, will FFG keep the story alive? Or will it be: "The story has been writen." As Tetsuhiko said, by looking at their other games, maintaining a story isn't their strong point, since most of their games, they don't have the controle or doesn't have a story at all.

While writing this post, I looked at FFG product and saw this page: https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/legend-of-the-five-rings-the-card-game/ So there's some info in it. By reading it, it seems that there's no plan for a story reset:

Throughout the development of the LCG, our developers will ensure that the game maintains its connection to Rokugan and the Colonies, as well as the game’s pervasive themes of honor, nobility, magic, intrigue, duty, and warfare.

I'm assuming that there's no plan for story reset because it says: "[...] the game maintains its connection to Rokugan and the Colonies, [...]" This kinda reveals the decision about the current story. However, it's nothing clear, it may have some changes, some fixes, but to me, it really seems like there will have no clean reset by reading this.

All in all, clean reset would occur due to Norikazu's ravings, and Kaede showing up with an elite task force to snuff out the lying darkness plot to kidnap Toturi. Go from there.

I think a clean reset should occur due to Bayushi Shoju realizing that he must ensue that the Hantei line will live forever (thus no "last Hantei" to ever occur) rather than literally turn the current emperor into the last Hantei and thus hilariously missing the whole point of his very own plan.

And if you are interested in a ''what if'' scenario concerning that very story reset, you can always check the Tomorrow's Prophets project. ( https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/197673-tomorrows-prophets-a-creative-project-for-the-community/ )

It also has the added benefit of acknowledging all the storylines from Imperial to Ivory, and reset the timeline prior to the Scorpion Clan Coup, with minimal manipulation of the canon.

I'm hopeful that the slower pace and smaller card pool of an LCG will make any integration with a RPG easier and smoother. One or two RPG books a year could keep RPG players up to date with the setting and story. Not every cycle of expansions for the LCG has to have world shattering events. Some of them could really just flesh out clans/areas/spheres of conflict. Leave story growth for the bigger boxed expansions which don't rotate out.

I'm hopeful that the slower pace and smaller card pool of an LCG will make any integration with a RPG easier and smoother. One or two RPG books a year could keep RPG players up to date with the setting and story. Not every cycle of expansions for the LCG has to have world shattering events. Some of them could really just flesh out clans/areas/spheres of conflict. Leave story growth for the bigger boxed expansions which don't rotate out.

Only one or two a year? I'd imagine a lot than that for FFG, if they follow the Star Wars RPG model. Off the top of my head we'll most likely see a core book, individual clan books, a new adventure book a year, specific books for whatever "classes" they come up with (at minimum a samurai, shugenja, monk, ninja, political, and ronin book), and some sort of regional book that isn't covered in the clan ones.

Lots of stuff and we're not even counting the possibility of them coming out with stuff like campaign books focusing on past events or arcs. I could see those being their own core books too.

That would be great! Though L5R is probably much less popular than Star Wars, and I wouldn't expect them to release as many books for L5R. It would be awesome to have a new L5R RPG though.

That would be great! Though L5R is probably much less popular than Star Wars, and I wouldn't expect them to release as many books for L5R. It would be awesome to have a new L5R RPG though.

Not in the same span of time, but I'd expect a good number of books over a few years. The only problem is that the rpg wouldn't be out for a number of years. I don't expect it until 2019 after they cement the LCG and really establish their view and take of the setting. The wait might kill some people.