To answer the charge against Lee the Parangu Bandit being a good duelist if we lump Iaijutsu into Kenjutsu, I would answer with a question: What are Lee's Attributes?

Should be roughly the same as Hida Badbutt's. That's why I chose the parangu bandit as an example instead of the bigger-than-life Burning Sands raider with his trusty scimitar .

I mean, yeah, Random Lee won't be a match for Kakita Onetrickponyko, but that wouldn't comfort Hida Badbutt.

In regards to mass battle and infiltration being less iconic, I would argue that depends upon your clan affiliation sir. Akodo Stompsarmyoko is probably all about knocking others around on the battlefield, Shosuro Une'ersawa walks by with a smile on her face, hidden beneath the masque of her disguise. Utaku Tootrickponyko is all about the skirmish. I played a shinjo bushi in a five year campaign, and only faced one duel during that whole tme. Even then I did not play by his opponents rules. When it came time to strike, I drew the blade not in attack, but to parry my opponent's blade using Shinjo Bushi School rank 2 ability. My gamemaster awarded me for creative thinking, but docked me honor, and glory for using gaijin tricks. It worked, and the duel proceeded with kenjutsu at which I had the upper hand.

If you have a player who wants to be THE Duelist, and does not mind that they have to fight with one hand tied behind their backs at all other times? Keep to the vanilla 4th Edition.

So... Are you saying that a trade off of 28XP means having one hand tied behind their back all the time? Why 28XP? since that's the number of XP needed from a skill from 0 to 7. That seems a lot but when you're that far, it's not that much. I feel like the real cost difference is in the Rings/Traits needed, not in the skills departments.

The same could be say for an Akodo who wants to be THE Tactician or any Shosuro who wants to be THE Infiltrator. There's a trade off everywhere... I don't feel like the Duelist needs a favor more than any other type of character. Sure some has it more easy while others have a thougher road.

Don't forget the cost of also having improved Awareness, Reflexes, and Void.

Obviously these have other uses beyond the Iaijustsu duel, but you'd better have them if you don't want low kept dice to neutralize all those dice you have in the Iaijutsu skill.

Yeah...but Awareness is not only for Iaijutsu, but also for Ettiquette, Courtier, Sincerity, Acting, Animal Handling, Intimidation, Temptation and some Artisan & Perform Skills.

Reflexes also is not only for Iaijutsu, but also for your Armor TN, Initiative, some Arisan & Perform Skills and Kyujutsu.

And having a high Void-Ring is never a bad idea.

So THE Duelist won't only be good at dueling, he can also be good at social and creative skills, which would perfectly reflect the ideal Samurai.

I like the idea of dueling and fighting being different things, somtimes I wish that not all the swords are merged together under the Kenjutsu-Skill, but if it really were a problem I woudl just swap all the fighting-skill with a seperate skill for every weapon...but then the list would be quite long.

Also I want to mention that not only scimitars may be handled in a different way than Katana...als a Wakizashi and the No-Dachi and the Ninja-to are used in a slightly different way...

The Katana can be wielded with one or both hands, the No-Dachi requires both hands, the Wakizashi is a one-hand-sword, so ist the Ninja-to and all those weapons are found in the Kenjutsu-Skill.

And didn't one of you guys point out that "there are only so many ways of how to swing a sword"?

So why would it be a problem for having arious swords merged under the same skill?

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My favourite silly name doesn't really work in English...it is Moto Rhat, and this sound like the german word used for motorcycles (Motorrad)...

At one point I did say "there are only so many ways to swing a sword", in response to the idea that Bushi schools are all each teaching something largely unique and special and different, as I recall.

Regarding being THE Tactician? You have two Advantages (Tactician & Strategist), and then the Battle Skill. Then you have to keep up your Perception as well, so it is actually more expensive to be the devoted Military Commander. And being THE Infiltrator requires a lot more Skills than just Stealth. In counterpoint, I would argue that Mass Battle and Infiltration are both less iconic to the L5R setting than Iaijutsu dueling.

It requires way more than simply "The battle Skills" to be The Tactician. Like you've said, there's a need for a good amount of Perception, then you want some Lores in History, Heraldry and War, which requires also some Intelligence, and then the most important tactician skill, other than Battle, Games. While this seems wierd, a Tactician wants to be an experts in games because it requires tactics to be able to prove his worthy outside of a war. So, it's a trade off, almost the same as the Duelist and you've said it, it's actually more explensive to be the devoted Military Commander, so should we do something about it just like you've said with the Iaijutsu going in Kenjutsu? I don't feel like it.

For The Infistrator, I've never said it only needed just Stealth, just like the Tactician, it needs a tons of stuffs. It needs Acting, Stealth, Crafts, Forgery, Sleight of hand, etc. It needs a huge kit to be able to be the best Infiltrator. Just like the Duelist who wants to be The Duelist. Should we group all these stuffs into, let's say a skill called: "Infiltrator Skill". That would be just very poor game design...

As for the iconic of the Setting, I strongly disagree with you because all of these themes are very iconic. It all depends on the campaign you want and how your players wants to play. If none of your players wants to build their character into the dueling theme, it's a very bad thing to bring a ton of duels in the campaign, that's just wrong. Also, is that really less iconic of the setting? When I look at most of the movie references to fit in the setting, there's a lot of great movies where there's more Mass Battle and Infiltration theme than a real duel. If game designers refered the whole novel Romance of Three Kingdoms, I doubt they would reference a huge story as this filled with duels, wars, treachery, etc, for simply the "dueling" section.

Edit:

I'll also point out that when I played a duelist, I didn't picked Kenjutsu as my primary shirmishes skill, but Kyujutsu, since it's a Reflex skills, preventing the Agility/Reflex split. Of course, when I was in close range, it was a little troublesome, but my teamates was preventing this because they know that I was playing an archer in skirmishes. Also, nothing is better than weakening them before they are in close range, giving you an edge over them with your high initiative and high TN to be hit.

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As for another great name here's one from the Bat Clan: Komori Bruce.

I did not mean to slight the Mass Battle or Stealth Infiltration aspects of the game by saying they were not part of the core inspiration of the game. Honestly, FANTASY as a genre has always incorporated the Massive Battle and Sneaky Hijinks into its playbook. The fact that L5R RPG can handle both of these with ease, as well as the iconic dueling is a credit to the system. I just feel that the scene of the two swordsmen standing off against one another is an iconic aspect to L5R. If for nothing else, L5R is a game about magical samurai, and what do they do?

They DUEL. (to quote a terrible, terrible story about L5R)

It is, however, a difference of source material. I will always see L5R more through the jidaigeki chanbara cinema lens, than the Romance of the Three Kingdoms lens.

As a note, your example is precisely why I feel incorporating Iaijutsu as an Emphasis into Kenjutsu rather than its own separate Skill. A master swordsman should be at least competent at cutting you down in a melee as they are in cutting you down in a one on one fight.

I did not mean to slight the Mass Battle or Stealth Infiltration aspects of the game by saying they were not part of the core inspiration of the game. Honestly, FANTASY as a genre has always incorporated the Massive Battle and Sneaky Hijinks into its playbook. The fact that L5R RPG can handle both of these with ease, as well as the iconic dueling is a credit to the system. I just feel that the scene of the two swordsmen standing off against one another is an iconic aspect to L5R. If for nothing else, L5R is a game about magical samurai, and what do they do?

They DUEL. (to quote a terrible, terrible story about L5R)

It is, however, a difference of source material. I will always see L5R more through the jidaigeki chanbara cinema lens, than the Romance of the Three Kingdoms lens.

As a note, your example is precisely why I feel incorporating Iaijutsu as an Emphasis into Kenjutsu rather than its own separate Skill. A master swordsman should be at least competent at cutting you down in a melee as they are in cutting you down in a one on one fight.

I'm trying to think of an example of a fictional swordsman who is great in a "skirmish" or battle, but once there's a formal challenge, he's helpless.

I'm trying to think of an example of a fictional swordsman who is great in a "skirmish" or battle, but once there's a formal challenge, he's helpless.

You probably won't, but you probably won't find an example of a fictional spearman who is great in a "skirmish" or battle but once he's in a formal challenge, he's helpless. You'll probably won't find an example of a fictional archer who is great in a "skirmish" or battle but once he's in a formal challenge, he's helpless.

I agree with AtoMaki on his point, it doesn't make sense to give that big of an edge on the Kenjutsu. Let's not forget that the Crab clan also have the unorthodox Tetsubo Duelist, does it mean they should use Heavy Weapon instead of Iaijutsu? Nope, they would still need Iaijutsu.

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Edit: I'll ask the question. Let's change the fact that it's samurai, let's move on to another setting but with similar stuffs. Let's move on a Far West setting. We all know there's duels to solve conflits in somewhat similar fashion. Someone may be good at aiming and killing people with his gun, but it doesn't mean he's good at taking his gun off it holster and shot his target with precision. Taken this in consideration, does it mean, if we build a system, this kind of duel should be in the same skills as the handgun skills?

Here is a little more information behind my cited example. The gamemaster was running a game in post second day of thunder. Thrane and Merenae had combined their forces, and were sailing on Otasun Uchi. A guest player rolled up a Bayushi Duelist. He looked at my character sheet, and made a wisecrack about my character being Unicorn Clan. Then another one about not having any Iaijutsu skill. The gamemaster then snatched the character sheet from him, handed back to me. Next hing I know that player has manipulatd our two characters into a duel. Thus the duel was not even part of the gamemaster's design. When compared here is how the two characters stacked up against one another:

Shinjo Yosama. Shinjo Bushi school rank 2

Awareness 2, Reflexes 3, Perception 3, Agility 4, Void 2

Kenjutsu 5, Iaijutsu 0, Battle 2, Defense 4

Bayushi Duelist Bayushi Bushi school rank 1

Awareness 4, Reflexes 4, Perception 2, Agility 2, Void 3

Kenjutsu 2, Iaijutsu 4, Battle 0, Defense 0

The other player had meant to cut me in half to force me to reroll a new character. He was a guest player, a friend of one of the regulars. He came for the next three sessions and did similar shenanigans. By the end of that fourth session he attended we all politely asked him not to return. He was only ever disruptive to the game. His duel with me was his least offensive manuever.

I did not mean to slight the Mass Battle or Stealth Infiltration aspects of the game by saying they were not part of the core inspiration of the game. Honestly, FANTASY as a genre has always incorporated the Massive Battle and Sneaky Hijinks into its playbook. The fact that L5R RPG can handle both of these with ease, as well as the iconic dueling is a credit to the system. I just feel that the scene of the two swordsmen standing off against one another is an iconic aspect to L5R. If for nothing else, L5R is a game about magical samurai, and what do they do?

They DUEL. (to quote a terrible, terrible story about L5R)

It is, however, a difference of source material. I will always see L5R more through the jidaigeki chanbara cinema lens, than the Romance of the Three Kingdoms lens.

As a note, your example is precisely why I feel incorporating Iaijutsu as an Emphasis into Kenjutsu rather than its own separate Skill. A master swordsman should be at least competent at cutting you down in a melee as they are in cutting you down in a one on one fight.

I'm trying to think of an example of a fictional swordsman who is great in a "skirmish" or battle, but once there's a formal challenge, he's helpless.

... Lady Matsu? It was correctly pointed out that there are inconsistencies between the editions, so there's some room for debate as to whether she was actually bad at iaijutsu, or better than most but just not as good as Lord Kakita; but either way, I think it's fairly clear that she was much, much, better in skirmishes (in which she was, if not the absolute best, certainly in contention for the title) than in what we might recognise as a Iaijutsu challenge (in which she was defeated with contemptuous ease, albeit at the hands of the master).

I did not mean to slight the Mass Battle or Stealth Infiltration aspects of the game by saying they were not part of the core inspiration of the game. Honestly, FANTASY as a genre has always incorporated the Massive Battle and Sneaky Hijinks into its playbook. The fact that L5R RPG can handle both of these with ease, as well as the iconic dueling is a credit to the system. I just feel that the scene of the two swordsmen standing off against one another is an iconic aspect to L5R. If for nothing else, L5R is a game about magical samurai, and what do they do?

They DUEL. (to quote a terrible, terrible story about L5R)

It is, however, a difference of source material. I will always see L5R more through the jidaigeki chanbara cinema lens, than the Romance of the Three Kingdoms lens.

As a note, your example is precisely why I feel incorporating Iaijutsu as an Emphasis into Kenjutsu rather than its own separate Skill. A master swordsman should be at least competent at cutting you down in a melee as they are in cutting you down in a one on one fight.

I'm trying to think of an example of a fictional swordsman who is great in a "skirmish" or battle, but once there's a formal challenge, he's helpless.

... Lady Matsu? It was correctly pointed out that there are inconsistencies between the editions, so there's some room for debate as to whether she was actually bad at iaijutsu, or better than most but just not as good as Lord Kakita; but either way, I think it's fairly clear that she was much, much, better in skirmishes (in which she was, if not the absolute best, certainly in contention for the title) than in what we might recognise as a Iaijutsu challenge (in which she was defeated with contemptuous ease, albeit at the hands of the master).

Dammit, I was just about to post the same thing .

I did not mean to slight the Mass Battle or Stealth Infiltration aspects of the game by saying they were not part of the core inspiration of the game. Honestly, FANTASY as a genre has always incorporated the Massive Battle and Sneaky Hijinks into its playbook. The fact that L5R RPG can handle both of these with ease, as well as the iconic dueling is a credit to the system. I just feel that the scene of the two swordsmen standing off against one another is an iconic aspect to L5R. If for nothing else, L5R is a game about magical samurai, and what do they do?

They DUEL. (to quote a terrible, terrible story about L5R)

It is, however, a difference of source material. I will always see L5R more through the jidaigeki chanbara cinema lens, than the Romance of the Three Kingdoms lens.

As a note, your example is precisely why I feel incorporating Iaijutsu as an Emphasis into Kenjutsu rather than its own separate Skill. A master swordsman should be at least competent at cutting you down in a melee as they are in cutting you down in a one on one fight.

I'm trying to think of an example of a fictional swordsman who is great in a "skirmish" or battle, but once there's a formal challenge, he's helpless.

... Lady Matsu? It was correctly pointed out that there are inconsistencies between the editions, so there's some room for debate as to whether she was actually bad at iaijutsu, or better than most but just not as good as Lord Kakita; but either way, I think it's fairly clear that she was much, much, better in skirmishes (in which she was, if not the absolute best, certainly in contention for the title) than in what we might recognise as a Iaijutsu challenge (in which she was defeated with contemptuous ease, albeit at the hands of the master).

Didn't she defeat everyone she faced in that tournament, except for Kakita in the final match?

I'm trying to think of an example of a fictional swordsman who is great in a "skirmish" or battle, but once there's a formal challenge, he's helpless.

... Lady Matsu? It was correctly pointed out that there are inconsistencies between the editions, so there's some room for debate as to whether she was actually bad at iaijutsu, or better than most but just not as good as Lord Kakita; but either way, I think it's fairly clear that she was much, much, better in skirmishes (in which she was, if not the absolute best, certainly in contention for the title) than in what we might recognise as a Iaijutsu challenge (in which she was defeated with contemptuous ease, albeit at the hands of the master).

Didn't she defeat everyone she faced in that tournament, except for Kakita in the final match?

Yes she did, but that is one point where the editions conflict if I have read through these post correctly. Lady Matsu faced many of her previous opponents with swords drawn to begin with. That making it an issue of kenjutsu which apparently she excelled in that field without question. It has been too long since I have read the stories first hand. I also only own first edition rog books for referencing back.

I did not mean to slight the Mass Battle or Stealth Infiltration aspects of the game by saying they were not part of the core inspiration of the game. Honestly, FANTASY as a genre has always incorporated the Massive Battle and Sneaky Hijinks into its playbook. The fact that L5R RPG can handle both of these with ease, as well as the iconic dueling is a credit to the system. I just feel that the scene of the two swordsmen standing off against one another is an iconic aspect to L5R. If for nothing else, L5R is a game about magical samurai, and what do they do?

They DUEL. (to quote a terrible, terrible story about L5R)

It is, however, a difference of source material. I will always see L5R more through the jidaigeki chanbara cinema lens, than the Romance of the Three Kingdoms lens.

As a note, your example is precisely why I feel incorporating Iaijutsu as an Emphasis into Kenjutsu rather than its own separate Skill. A master swordsman should be at least competent at cutting you down in a melee as they are in cutting you down in a one on one fight.

I'm trying to think of an example of a fictional swordsman who is great in a "skirmish" or battle, but once there's a formal challenge, he's helpless.

... Lady Matsu? It was correctly pointed out that there are inconsistencies between the editions, so there's some room for debate as to whether she was actually bad at iaijutsu, or better than most but just not as good as Lord Kakita; but either way, I think it's fairly clear that she was much, much, better in skirmishes (in which she was, if not the absolute best, certainly in contention for the title) than in what we might recognise as a Iaijutsu challenge (in which she was defeated with contemptuous ease, albeit at the hands of the master).

Didn't she defeat everyone she faced in that tournament, except for Kakita in the final match?

She defeated them in one-on-one skirmishes. Kakita was the only participant who used the ceremonial fighting style that later became iaijutsu (and this is pretty much why he won).

So someone without iaijustsu should just start the fight with sword(s) drawn... which is evidently what Miromoto-school bushi do, from what's been noted here.

The general problem, at least to me, is that logically Kenjutsu and Iajutsu should be related, but maybe not closely related enough to be separated only by emphases. Plus, lumping them together into one skill makes Kenjutsu too powerful, in my opinion.

Perhaps we can do something similar to the way Eclipse Phase handles skills, by letting levels in one skill give you bonuses to using a related skill, at the gamemaster's discretion. So in this case, maybe you'd add one half your Kenjutsu rank to your Iajutsu rank when dueling, and vice versa. You'd need to beef up Defense to compensate, but it seems like a reasonable compromise.

I don't know if there even is an objectively "right" answer here -- every approach has drawbacks and there's overlap with how the weapons skills are divided up...

I wonder if the iaijustsu skill could be used for the first two rolls, but then the kenjusu skill used for the stike -- the actual attack with the sword. Someone with no skill in the formal dueling tradition would just roll his raw Awareness and Void for the first two, and be at a disadvantage, but when the moment to draw actually came, skill with the sword would still matter.

You may not be given that option. Having swords drawn may not necessarily give yiu an edge either, if you are facing a Kenshizen. You also may have to use gaijin or ninja tricks to win if out classed. I believe the main point is to think on your feet, and make use of what you do have, what you do know. Then see how the kharma plays out. Even with the gaijin trick I pulled I could have still been cut in half. You just never know.

I don't know if there even is an objectively "right" answer here -- every approach has drawbacks and there's overlap with how the weapons skills are divided up...

I wonder if the iaijustsu skill could be used for the first two rolls, but then the kenjusu skill used for the stike -- the actual attack with the sword. Someone with no skill in the formal dueling tradition would just roll his raw Awareness and Void for the first two, and be at a disadvantage, but when the moment to draw actually came, skill with the sword would still matter.

The problem with that is, the third roll is the least important. Unless you're crazy hard to hit or your opponent is for some reason terrible at striking, whoever goes first probably wins. (Mostly true of a duel to first blood -- but also in a duel to the death, just because that first hit may put the target into wound penalties before they get to strike.)

Fumi -- the best approach I've seen for handling this kind of issue is branching skill trees. Up to a certain point, say rank three, you buy Kenjutsu. When it comes time to buy rank four, though, you have to pick up Iaijutsu and Katana and Scimitar and so forth separately. If I have Iaijutsu 7 and Katana 5, I roll the 7 when dueling, the 5 when striking in a skirmish, and my measly Kenjutsu 3 if somebody hands me a scimitar. If what you care about in your system design is accurately simulating the relationship between various skills, I think that's the way to go -- but most game systems don't care that much about that degree of granularity.

This... has potential. It's causing a half-formed idea to tickle at the back of my mind. Not quite sure what will come of it, but I'll post if it forms something solid.

I see potential in what Kinzen has suggested, and makes sense. It will not necessarily help my Battle Maiden who has to develope Kenjutsu for katana, Naginata for prefered weapon while mounted, Horsemanship, Animal Handling, Horse Archery, Battle, Lore: History, Lore: Heraldry, and Archery(Agility) for foot archery just to cover her battlefield skills to be a proper Battle Maiden.

I see the merit in it though. Thanks Kinzen

It might help your character if the idea were expanded. I could see Lore:History and Lore:Heraldry being two branches of a single tree, for instance. Also Horsemanship and Animal Handling.

If we were to go and do the entire skill list this way, though, it would end up being quite complex for a house rule. I'm not sure my players would go for it.

Yeah, to my eye this is more of a "build it in from the start" kind of rule. And not one I personally care enough about to implement for L5R, though if I were to design my own game some day I might give it serious thought.

Also you guys seem to forget something important...just because you don't have Iaijutsu on you character-sheet it doesn't mean you can't use it. There are VOID-POINTS and those can be used for temporarily increase ones rank in a Skillfrom 0 to 1.