Adding flavor to the result is always fun, this is why I always do something based on the roll when it seems exceptionnal. However, this doesn't change the fact that my players can call Raises. It's even better if they call Raises because it will go in the something they want, otherwise, it's stuffs that I wanna add up.

Oh and when I say "when it seems exceptionnal" it's "exceptionnally good or exceptionnally bad". If they have a Roll TN of 25 to do and someone rolls below 10, yes, that player will receive a something bad. It may be that he tripped while he attempts to hit his opponent causing him to fall on the floor and losing his weapon. It may be that he investigates a flower while looking at a crime scene because he thinks that the culprid hid the weapon inside the pot. And so more.

This adds up to the game, but you have to add this on both side, good or bad. This is even better when the players plays with the results, even if his character's sure that to get to the enemy headquarter he'll need to follow the Golden Brick Road and gets mad at the other characters because he's being ignored.

A common houserule for my games is that every 10 you exceed the TN by grants you a free raise.

A common houserule for my games is that every 10 you exceed the TN by grants you a free raise.

Interestingly, that came up several times in the 7th Sea 2nd ed thread on RPG.net and is also something I'm doing in my current 7th Sea campaign.

Speaking of 7th Sea 2nd ed, John Wick's e-mail earlier this week said this:

I love R&K. I helped design it back in the day. But the fact of the matter is, rolling a handful of dice and keeping two of them… isn’t very swashbuckly. If I want to feel like Errol Flynn, if I want to feel like the Dread Pirate Roberts, if I want to feel like Captain Jack Sparrow, I want to throw a handful of dice and use all of them. And that’s the new system we’ve designed for 7th Sea: Second Edition.

We’re still using Trait + Skill (the “Traits are too important” folks are going to be very happy) and we’re still using Raises. Except now, you make Raises after the roll. Which means you get to feel like a Big **** Hero.

What would people say to that in L5R?

I for one would be glad to see this. I am growing weary of random filler encounters that drain a parties entire pool of resources, and boss mobs that require each party member to hunker down in a bunker firing off rocket silos in order to pull off a victory. ( This is of-course an exaggeration. )

I love R&K. I helped design it back in the day. But the fact of the matter is, rolling a handful of dice and keeping two of them… isn’t very swashbuckly. If I want to feel like Errol Flynn, if I want to feel like the Dread Pirate Roberts, if I want to feel like Captain Jack Sparrow, I want to throw a handful of dice and use all of them. And that’s the new system we’ve designed for 7th Sea: Second Edition.

We’re still using Trait + Skill (the “Traits are too important” folks are going to be very happy) and we’re still using Raises. Except now, you make Raises after the roll. Which means you get to feel like a Big **** Hero.

What would people say to that in L5R?

My thoughts are the following:

For the roll and keep all dice (not just Trait): It's not just because the numbers are high (8k4 VS 8k8) that I would feel more a Big **** Hero. Numbers are simply a way to compare the action attempt to the difficulties, in that case, the difficulty will simply be higher in number. It's like if system A is doing 10 damages on a 100 Wounds character while System B is doing 100 damages on a 1000 Wounds character. In both case, it's still 10%, it's just the number being higher.

As for the Raises, I wonder if by "roll" he means right before compare the roll to the difficulty. I would bet it's before comparing, which means that if you roll a high value, you would take more chance, than on a lower roll. In that case, it sounds interesting since some people might call more Raises since they have a point of knowledge, specially since the range of a roll is vaste in the R&K system.

I love R&K. I helped design it back in the day. But the fact of the matter is, rolling a handful of dice and keeping two of them… isn’t very swashbuckly. If I want to feel like Errol Flynn, if I want to feel like the Dread Pirate Roberts, if I want to feel like Captain Jack Sparrow, I want to throw a handful of dice and use all of them. And that’s the new system we’ve designed for 7th Sea: Second Edition.

We’re still using Trait + Skill (the “Traits are too important” folks are going to be very happy) and we’re still using Raises. Except now, you make Raises after the roll. Which means you get to feel like a Big **** Hero.

What would people say to that in L5R?

Meh. Skills and Traits are not what makes a samurai a samurai in L5R. Your average budoka can muster the same amount of rolled and kept dice as any samurai, it is just a matter of aptitude. What sets apart the samurai from the others is their unique abilities like School Techniques and Katas. You can say that samurai in L5R are powerful because they are magical . The samurai won't defeat 10 bandits because he has Agility 4 and Kenjutsu 9 (though these will certainly help) but because he is a Rank 3 Matsu Berserker with the Avalanche in Pure Snow Kata who eats bandits for breakfast with his special mechanics.

On a subjective note, I can no longer take John Wick seriously. The dude is just... weird .

I've never taken him seriously, he's basically a famous version of the worst GM you've ever had. (See examples posted elsewhere...)

Keeping all the dice would make results swingier, I think, which isn't always a good thing. And I agree with Crawd that it isn't the total that matters; it's how that total compares to what you're trying to do. (Though I do see Wick's point about the psychological effect of only keeping two dice.)

The "call your Raises after you roll but before you know your TN" idea is interesting, though. I'm tempted to playtest that just for kicks -- my campaign is about to have a flashback session with one-off PCs, which would be an ideal time to test-drive a random mechanical change.

EDIT: Actually, "swingy" isn't what I mean. Trait rolls are swingy, because you're usually only keeping 2/3/maybe 4 dice, which means your total tends to be a crapshoot. But the bigger the dice pool gets, the more your results are going to tend toward the average. I'll need to think about this some more.

Not sure if I like the idea of asking players to roll without knowing the TN before they roll.

I think they should at least have non-numerical guidance: "this looks easy," "holy crap that's going to be hard," etc. At least on things where it's possible to eyeball the difficulty IC -- there are times when my players ask the TN and I say, "you can't tell."

I've never taken him seriously, he's basically a famous version of the worst GM you've ever had. (See examples posted elsewhere...)

Also, I recall him specifically, explicitly calling out every other system as inferior to his because making raises after you roll is dumb and for babies (may be SOME paraphrasing going on)

Then again, he's never tried to let anyone other than himself feel like a big **** hero. Maybe he's turning over a new leaf?

That could be fixed by giving the option to covert Explosions into Raises. It is also fairly balanced: An Exploded d10 is basically a +6.05 to the die roll; where as a Raise is a +5.

I actually REALLY like this. Basically, if you roll a 10, you can either A) choose to take it as a Free Raise, or B) choose to explode the die. In some rolls (Opposed checks, damage rolls, resisting the Taint), there's no real reason to take a Raise. However, this actually lets the player either take the Raise (like Babe Ruth calling his homerun), or let the dice fall where they will. This also allows your unkept 10's (which happen on some rolls) to contribute.

I might put this forward to my weekly Tabletop Group (see: Rules Experimental Committee) and see how it goes over.

Regarding FFG's RPG mechanics, taken from the Star War forums...

In this game, skills are basic understandings and abilities, but talents are where the true masters arise. Having 5 ranks of LS skill isn't nearly the same as having 2 or 3 ranks and an additional 5 LS talents.

Regarding FFG's RPG mechanics, taken from the Star War forums...

In this game, skills are basic understandings and abilities, but talents are where the true masters arise. Having 5 ranks of LS skill isn't nearly the same as having 2 or 3 ranks and an additional 5 LS talents.

That actually sounds very like L5R, just replace talents with techniques:

"Having 5 levels of Kenjutsu isn't nearly the same thing as having 2 or 3 ranks and an additional 5 Kenjutsu techniques."

Regarding FFG's RPG mechanics, taken from the Star War forums...

In this game, skills are basic understandings and abilities, but talents are where the true masters arise. Having 5 ranks of LS skill isn't nearly the same as having 2 or 3 ranks and an additional 5 LS talents.

That actually sounds very like L5R, just replace talents with techniques:

"Having 5 levels of Kenjutsu isn't nearly the same thing as having 2 or 3 ranks and an additional 5 Kenjutsu techniques."

EDIT: "As different" might be going a bit far, since SW was a huge change from WFRP, but my point is that the system will need to change to accommodate different skills, honor, shugenja, etc. They could even have funky dice and a roll and keep mechanic.

I keep getting opposed statements regarding L5R 4th on that regard -- quite a few posters have said that Traits and Skills matter more than Techniques.

I keep getting opposed statements regarding L5R 4th on that regard -- quite a few posters have said that Traits and Skills matter more than Techniques.

It depends on the Technique. Obviously, no amount of Skill/Trait can make up for a SAA. On the other hand, some Techniques only give something like a +1k0 to the Attack roll that is as good as a single Skill Rank.

However, what we shouldn't forget is that the character needs Skills and Traits to get Techniques because Insight doesn't grow on trees. So in the end, the difference is quite pointless as you can't have a character who has "some" Skill/Trait Ranks and "a lot" of Techniques.

It depends on the Technique. Obviously, no amount of Skill/Trait can make up for a SAA.

Void 5 and the skill to meet those Raises will approximate it. But no, it isn't quite the same thing.

However, what we shouldn't forget is that the character needs Skills and Traits to get Techniques because Insight doesn't grow on trees. So in the end, the difference is quite pointless as you can't have a character who has "some" Skill/Trait Ranks and "a lot" of Techniques.

You can sort of make that happen if you pour all your XP into skills that have nothing to do with your techniques? But this is why my GM had a house-rule requiring us to buy up our school skills in order to advance in school rank -- so we wouldn't magically get SAA when we only had one rank of a weapon skill (or equivalently nonsensical benefit for some other type of skill).

L5R 4th Edition is a very odd duck in many regards, when it comes to HOW a PC can advance in Rank. They can choose to simply invest in Attributes, and never have a Skill above 3, and still be considerably formidable. I call this the Shugenja. Alternatively, they can instead push for that necessary Rank 3 SAA method, and rely entirely on having Kenjutsu 7, and just banking on being able to reliably roll 10 dice on most attacks. I call this the Specialist. Finally, I have seen the balanced approach, where a character never raises a Skill above 5, and rounds out every Ring in the cycle of Earth, Air, Fire, Void, Water. I call this the Good on Paper, Bad in Play.

There is nothing saying a PC has to focus on School Skills. There is nothing saying a PC even has to focus on Skills. Or even Attributes. A Rank 1 Bayushi Courtier with 48 XP spent on Allies and Social Position is a terrifying foe to face at court if only because while you can beat them, you can't beat their friends.

In combat, the SAA is king. In spells, the Free Raise is king. In court, the Advantage game is king.

This appeals to some people, and is one of the selling points to the game. It is also, from what I have seen, a HUGE barrier to entry for some players. There is, literally, no "right" way to build a PC in L5R 4th Edition, but there are plenty of "bad" ways. Not every player adapts well to be being put in the middle of a field, told they can go anywhere they want but there are landmines out there. Some of them are marked.

A series of good points, and well made.

I'd like to dig up some of those land mines and mark some more of them.

That's why I think the idea of gaining Insight from Katas is useful: it's part of the process of making what appear to be reasonable choices feed into Insight Ranks. I said a reasonable amount about this in the Weapons etc thread.

Finally, I have seen the balanced approach, where a character never raises a Skill above 5, and rounds out every Ring in the cycle of Earth, Air, Fire, Void, Water. I call this the Good on Paper, Bad in Play.

Why "bad in play"? That was my ise zumi's build, and it worked out just fine. Perhaps not 100% mechanically optimal, but not everything has to be optimal; the balanced approach doesn't produce a broken, unplayable character.

Finally, I have seen the balanced approach, where a character never raises a Skill above 5, and rounds out every Ring in the cycle of Earth, Air, Fire, Void, Water. I call this the Good on Paper, Bad in Play.

Why "bad in play"? That was my ise zumi's build, and it worked out just fine. Perhaps not 100% mechanically optimal, but not everything has to be optimal; the balanced approach doesn't produce a broken, unplayable character.

Well, you gotta admit, that cycle is pretty bad. Air -> Void -> Fire -> Water -> Earth is much closer to playable.

Finally, I have seen the balanced approach, where a character never raises a Skill above 5, and rounds out every Ring in the cycle of Earth, Air, Fire, Void, Water. I call this the Good on Paper, Bad in Play.

Why "bad in play"? That was my ise zumi's build, and it worked out just fine. Perhaps not 100% mechanically optimal, but not everything has to be optimal; the balanced approach doesn't produce a broken, unplayable character.

Well, you gotta admit, that cycle is pretty bad. Air -> Void -> Fire -> Water -> Earth is much closer to playable.

Ah, I wasn't focusing on the order of it, I suppose -- but whether what you describe is more playable depends a *lot* on what kind of character you're playing. Courtier or duelist? Sure, your order is good. Front-line bushi? I want my Earth up way sooner than that. But mostly I was thinking of the balanced approach in general, which I think can be perfectly fine.

Finally, I have seen the balanced approach, where a character never raises a Skill above 5, and rounds out every Ring in the cycle of Earth, Air, Fire, Void, Water. I call this the Good on Paper, Bad in Play.

Why "bad in play"? That was my ise zumi's build, and it worked out just fine. Perhaps not 100% mechanically optimal, but not everything has to be optimal; the balanced approach doesn't produce a broken, unplayable character.

Well, you gotta admit, that cycle is pretty bad. Air -> Void -> Fire -> Water -> Earth is much closer to playable.

I have to agree with Kinzen's answer to that post. Each cycle depends on the type of character you're building. If I would build a Yojimbo, I really doubt I would get Earth last. I would take it first because a dead yojimbo is a useless yojimbo, then the Air ring is nice to act first and have a stronger TN, so yes, it would be second. Now, maybe I would have picked Void before Fire, but it's a matter of choice here. Then I would pick Water. Is it really pretty bad when you take the character design in consideration? I don't think so.

I was thinking more along the line of a generic character rather than a task-specific one. Obviously, a yojimbo or an element-specialist shugenja would have slightly different priorities.

However, I would disagree that Earth is needed at low levels. At IR 1-2 (and maybe even 3) you are screwed when you take wounds anyway, the aim should be to not get hit. At higher levels, this becomes less relevant as attack outstrips defense while damage remains roughly the same (and damage effects become less jamming), but until then, Armor TN worth more than Wounds (unless you are building your character specifically for tanking Wounds for some reason). Even as a Yojimbo, Earth could be a trap as Wounds mean little when your enemy can Increase Damage/Feint because you have low ATN and they do even less against Grappling or when you have to switch to Defense/Full Defense Stance - not to mention that a Crippled/Down Yojimbo won't protect anyone.