And in a world where the formal duel is a constant presence and risk, no one planning to wear a katana would learn the one without the other.

Well, but kenjutsu is not only about the katana... A Moto Bushi might have all the ranks in kenjutsu so that he can wield his scimitar like a pro, but zero iaijutsu because his katana is on the stand in his tent 24/7.

I agree with killjoy that any bushi in this setting would be learning both to duel and to use their katana in skirmish combat. But I disagree on the notion that this means the two skills should be merged. I mean, it's also true that every samurai (bushi or not) should learn basic etiquette. That doesn't mean you collapse them together. Kenjutsu and iaijutsu both involve swords, but they aren't "the same basic thing." Indeed, the very necessity of both aspects of a bushi's training is part of why they are separate. If this was some generic setting then, sure, any random thing you do involving a sword gets collapsed together. And maybe several different social interaction skills get collapsed into "persuasion" or "diplomacy." But iai is such a fundamental and significant part of the setting, and in such a different sphere from skirmishes, that it needs to be its own skill.

And in a world where the formal duel is a constant presence and risk, no one planning to wear a katana would learn the one without the other.

Well, but kenjutsu is not only about the katana... A Moto Bushi might have all the ranks in kenjutsu so that he can wield his scimitar like a pro, but zero iaijutsu because his katana is on the stand in his tent 24/7.

Is a scimitar similar enough to a katana in feel and technique that they'd both fall under "kenjustsu", then?

From a realism perspective:

It's difficult to say, since "scimitar" is actually a broad category of sword. The vast majority, though, were one-handed weapons intended to be paired with a shield, so that would imply a very different fighting style from a katana.

On the other hand, the sourcebooks call the scimitar a heavy weapon, and in 3rd ed at least it was considered a two-handed weapon. So maybe the L5R version could be wielded similarly to a katana, especially if it's one of the less-curved types.

From a game balance perspective:

I think they should definitely be considered the same skill. Otherwise scimitar-wielders would be worthless in duels, which would be a pretty serious penalty to stack onto them given they already have a social stigma.

Yeah, I think somehow someone in the history of L5R development got an image of the giant "executioner's sword" style scimitars... and that became their idea of a "scimitar" and it stuck in the game.

The typical sword that most people think of when they say "scimitar" is a lighter AND longer (blade-length) weapon than the katana, and wielded one-handed.

They're both primarily slashing weapons, though, which at least is a basic point of commonality.

They're both primarily slashing weapons, though, which at least is a basic point of commonality.

Very true.

I'm just trying to figure out where we draw the line, if we have two different skills for fighting "different ways" with the same sword, why would different swords all share the same skill?

They're both primarily slashing weapons, though, which at least is a basic point of commonality.

A rifle and a pistol both fire bullets. The skills needed to use each effectively are different.

And a scimatar is a far better cutter than a katana.

Frankly, the techniques to use a one-handed sword and a two-handed sword shouldn't be treated the same at all. The weapons themselves are built differently and the martial arts created to maximize their effectiveness are, in many cases, as different as the weapons themselves. We need only to look at the treatises HEMA practitioners learn from to see these differences.

I would agree, and this was mentioned earlier, that kenjutsu and iajutsu being separate skills is a little weird. Maybe the argument for their separation is because of special nature of the duel? Something like you'd never shoot a pistol in combat like you would in Olympic pistol shooting.

They're both primarily slashing weapons, though, which at least is a basic point of commonality.

A rifle and a pistol both fire bullets. The skills needed to use each effectively are different.

And a scimatar is a far better cutter than a katana.

Frankly, the techniques to use a one-handed sword and a two-handed sword shouldn't be treated the same at all. The weapons themselves are built differently and the martial arts created to maximize their effectiveness are, in many cases, as different as the weapons themselves. We need only to look at the treatises HEMA practitioners learn from to see these differences.

Given that a katana *can* be wielded one-handed (otherwise niten would be impossible), I wouldn't class them as 100% different. They're more similar than, say, a katana and a rapier.

But really, there's no "right" answer on this kind of thing. If you had separate skills for katana and scimitar, people would complain that it's stupid to say somebody who knows how to use one kind of slashing sword is completely incompetent at using another kind of slashing sword. Is it worth complicating the system with a different skill just for the sake of a few Moto? Probably not. Is it worth complicating the system with a different skill to make dueling stand out as a distinctive thing, that not every swordsman is good at? Debatable. I think it depends a lot on what role iaijutsu dueling plays in your campaign.

I feel it should be noted that there is some differentiation between katana kenjutsu and scimitar kenjutsu, since emphases exist. Whether that is a sufficient degree of differentiation is debatable, but it does exist. If we're going to go into detail on the differences between the use of various weapons, then there's no reason to stop at scimitars, either- masakari are used in a completely different way from tetsubo, but they're both Heavy Weapons; no-dachi are very different from wakizashi, but they're both Kenjutsu; etc. etc.

Ultimately, I think we have to accept that L5R makes little attempt to simulate 'realistic' combat. Simplifying combat rules makes it easier to remember that L5R is a game about playing samurai within a distinctive society, rather than murderhobos differentiated only by how exactly they kill things. Some people like combat more than social interactions in their games, and that's great- if they want to add complexity to the combat system to reflect the greater emphasis they place on it, it's not terribly difficult to house-rule various things for that purpose. But within the base setting, I don't see an issue with reducing the emphasis on, and mechanical complexity of, hitting things with sharp/heavy/pointy things until they die.

Iaijutsu is a separate matter, partly because of the different skills involved, but also because it takes place in an entirely different social context- if two Tsuruchi were having an archery duel to settle their differences, or two Unicorn wanted to use audaryspak rather than iaijutsu to avoid breaking Shinjo's rule against shedding the blood of kin, or whatever, I see no reason they couldn't also use 'iaijutsu' rules, just as shugenja can do for taryu-jiai, even though the skill of iaido isn't involved at all. As Kinzen says, if iaijutsu is a minor aspect of the campaign, or the social importance of the ritual is being downplayed in your setting, cool! Use kenjutsu, no problem. But I think rules should match and reinforce the setting, and the place of iaijutsu in the default setting justifies the use of separate rules, whereas the technical difference between swinging a katana and a scimitar does not.

Much as others have said Iaijutsu is a specialized form of cultural training. Your stance, the resolve of your On can cause an opponent to bow ending the duel without the swords ever being drawn. Kenjutsu for the game purposes is the actual use of the blades in battle, or skirmishes. Now if you want to bring the specialized use of scimitars to Rokugan and be a dervish, now you should add dervish dancing as a new skill to cover that rather than just lump it under kenjutsu. Thus for basic use kenjutsu is fine for katanas and scimitars alike, for specialized training unique to a culture and its choice of weapon, a new skill should be applied seperately to reflect that specialized training.

Just my two koku

I'm basically with Yosama. Scimitar doesn't get or need its own skill because scimitars are unimportant to the setting, and can be easily grouped in a bigger category. Whether two things should be different skills in an RPG is not something that you can assess without looking at what the setting is.

Guys, the question is whether dueling and fighting with scimitars/machetes/greatswords/other-not-samurai-swords should be a different skill. Because kenjutsu also includes the latter, so we can't really merge iaijutsu and kenjutsu without also making Lee the Random Parangu Bandit a competent duelist; and let's be honest here, Lee shouldn't be a good duelist just because his weapon of choice is a Parangu.

I'm basically with Yosama. Scimitar doesn't get or need its own skill because scimitars are unimportant to the setting, and can be easily grouped in a bigger category. Whether two things should be different skills in an RPG is not something that you can assess without looking at what the setting is.

From what I've read, there are many Unicorn warriors who would disagree with you on whether the "scimitar" is important in Rokugan.

Guys, the question is whether dueling and fighting with scimitars/machetes/greatswords/other-not-samurai-swords should be a different skill. Because kenjutsu also includes the latter, so we can't really merge iaijutsu and kenjutsu without also making Lee the Random Parangu Bandit a competent duelist; and let's be honest here, Lee shouldn't be a good duelist just because his weapon of choice is a Parangu.

Why couldn't someone fight a duel with a parangu?

I'm basically with Yosama. Scimitar doesn't get or need its own skill because scimitars are unimportant to the setting, and can be easily grouped in a bigger category. Whether two things should be different skills in an RPG is not something that you can assess without looking at what the setting is.

From what I've read, there are many Unicorn warriors who would disagree with you on whether the "scimitar" is important in Rokugan.

Scimitars aren't important in Rokugan. Neither are the names of the STYW. Or how to make leather clothes. Or proper handshaking technique. I could care less what Moto Bob's personal take on the matter is.

Also, I'm pretty sure that the Unicorn PC wouldn't want any of those to be separate skills, because then it would force Unicorn characters to buy all of their Unicorn-specific skills in addition to the skills of general applicability (kenjutsu, religion, etiquette).

I'm basically with Yosama. Scimitar doesn't get or need its own skill because scimitars are unimportant to the setting, and can be easily grouped in a bigger category. Whether two things should be different skills in an RPG is not something that you can assess without looking at what the setting is.

From what I've read, there are many Unicorn warriors who would disagree with you on whether the "scimitar" is important in Rokugan.

Scimitars aren't important in Rokugan. Neither are the names of the STYW. Or how to make leather clothes. Or proper handshaking technique. I could care less what Moto Bob's personal take on the matter is.

Oh. OK.

Let me retell a story from a different game system that is a bit silly, and a little funny. One player not wanting to invest in both quickdraw(iaido) and swordsmanship(kenjutsu) but wanted the initiative boost of quickdraw invested solely in quickdraw. There were advanced combat rules for the character to be able to ready a reaction under certain conditions. Now with the iniative boost from quickdraw, this character would normally go first. Now let us say bandit one approaches Quckdraw McGraw. McGraw announces his reaction, cuts bandit down, and reseaths his sword. Next bandit approaches, and kiai! Rinse and repeat. I was a player in that game so it was funny to watch him repeatedly cut down bad guys with his loophole nonsense. His swordsmanship was lousy, if he had his sword drawn and rolled to hit, he would miss every time. However his quickdraw was phenominal making critical hits with almost every attack. A loop hole allowed this shenanigan, because it allowed him to use his quickdraw instead of his swordsmanship if his sword was sheathed. Sheathing a sword was free action so he just resheathed after each attack. Hilarious to watch. However it was broken. Just the previous sequence of post resuraced the memory.

Thanks for your time,

Shinjo Yosama

Guys, the question is whether dueling and fighting with scimitars/machetes/greatswords/other-not-samurai-swords should be a different skill. Because kenjutsu also includes the latter, so we can't really merge iaijutsu and kenjutsu without also making Lee the Random Parangu Bandit a competent duelist; and let's be honest here, Lee shouldn't be a good duelist just because his weapon of choice is a Parangu.

Why couldn't someone fight a duel with a parangu?

It is not about the ability to fight a duel, but Random Lee the Heimin Bandit having the ability to defeat Hida Badbutt in a duel even though Lee's biggest feat is that he likes his parangu (while Badbutt likes his tetsubo). Yet, all he needs is to get a katana to become a duel-monster. At this point is, the question arises whether Badbutt should possess the ability to fight duels better with his tetsubo (canon examples exist for this) rather than allow Lee to defeat samurai in duels even though he has never even seen a dojo in his entire life.

It is not about the ability to fight a duel, but Random Lee the Heimin Bandit having the ability to defeat Hida Badbutt in a duel even though Lee's biggest feat is that he likes his parangu (while Badbutt likes his tetsubo). Yet, all he needs is to get a katana to become a duel-monster. At this point is, the question arises whether Badbutt should possess the ability to fight duels better with his tetsubo (canon examples exist for this) rather than allow Lee to defeat samurai in duels even though he has never even seen a dojo in his entire life.

This made me laugh! However, you did one mistake! You should have picked Shiba Johnny or Daidoji Tom instead Hida Badbutt. We all know that Badbutt would have slam his tetsubo right between Lee's eyes if Lee wanted a duel. Here's your mistake. Why Johnny or Tom? Because one prefer Spears and the other Polearms for better Yojimbo's efficiancy.

About this, I will say that I fully agree that it's not correct to merge kenjutsu and Iaijutsu simply because they are share the same weapon. It would be like saying: "How about I use Ninjutsu for everything?" Why am I saying this? Simply because if we take a look at the real Ninjutsu art, it's involving the usual throwing stuffs (shuriken, blowgun, kunai, etc.) but it's also involving the following: staves and polearms, swords and some jujitsu techniques. Then if we allow Ninjutsu for attacking with swords instead of Kenjutsu, that will mean we can use a Katana with Ninjutsu, that will mean that Ninja Rico will be able to use Ninjutsu instead of Iaijutsu, one skill to rule them all?

No... For balance sake, I think that the current split is made is the way to go. In my point of view, every skill is more than simply the ability to perform the skill, it's also the knowledge around it. When you look at Iaijutsu, there's the assessment phase, where you can evaluate the opponent void, reflexes, iaijutsu skills. In my book, the same can be done for any skills. Akodo Guile can roll a Kenjutsu/Perception roll on his opponent to evaluate his opponent Kenjutsu skills. That's, of course, in my book.

I like how we're coming up with more and more ridiculous names for these example characters. I fully expect that the next ones will be named Yoritomo Bruno and Hiruma Tex.

To answer the charge against Lee the Parangu Bandit being a good duelist if we lump Iaijutsu into Kenjutsu, I would answer with a question: What are Lee's Attributes?

Specifically, why would Lee have a good Awareness? Sure, he would have a good Agility, for hitting you with his Parangu and Stealth. Maybe he would have a good Reflexes, to not get hit by Parangu in return. He might even have a good Void, you know, in case he wants to be awesome once in a while.

But why would he have a good Awareness?

Being a Duelist in vanilla 4th Edition L5R is pretty expensive, honestly. You have to have 3 Good Attributes (Awareness, Reflexes, Agility) and 1 excellent Ring (Void). Adding to it an additional Skill price (Iaijutsu), and you have a very expensive hobby for a character, with a pretty big entry to play. I think what it boils down to is: Do you have a player who wants to be THE Duelist, and if so, do they want no one else to be A Duelist?

If you have a player who wants to be THE Duelist, and does not mind that they have to fight with one hand tied behind their backs at all other times? Keep to the vanilla 4th Edition.

I personally prefer a more accessible dueling model, one where Lee's machete-whacking-action means he has a SHOT at being able to fast draw a katana and killing a man and also one where a Kakita Bushi has a legitimate reputation of being a deadly swordsman even with his blade out of its saya.

To answer the charge against Lee the Parangu Bandit being a good duelist if we lump Iaijutsu into Kenjutsu, I would answer with a question: What are Lee's Attributes?

Specifically, why would Lee have a good Awareness? Sure, he would have a good Agility, for hitting you with his Parangu and Stealth. Maybe he would have a good Reflexes, to not get hit by Parangu in return. He might even have a good Void, you know, in case he wants to be awesome once in a while.

But why would he have a good Awareness?

Being a Duelist in vanilla 4th Edition L5R is pretty expensive, honestly. You have to have 3 Good Attributes (Awareness, Reflexes, Agility) and 1 excellent Ring (Void). Adding to it an additional Skill price (Iaijutsu), and you have a very expensive hobby for a character, with a pretty big entry to play. I think what it boils down to is: Do you have a player who wants to be THE Duelist, and if so, do they want no one else to be A Duelist?

If you have a player who wants to be THE Duelist, and does not mind that they have to fight with one hand tied behind their backs at all other times? Keep to the vanilla 4th Edition.

I personally prefer a more accessible dueling model, one where Lee's machete-whacking-action means he has a SHOT at being able to fast draw a katana and killing a man and also one where a Kakita Bushi has a legitimate reputation of being a deadly swordsman even with his blade out of its saya.

Does he even have to fast-draw? I thought I read somewhere that Niten-style bushi start duels with their swords drawn.

As for the cost of being a duelist, I agree -- as noted earlier. In order to excell at dueling, a character needs two Attributes and a Ring with an raised (non-"starting") value, to go with their Skill (whether that's kenjutsu or iaijustsu); certain Bushi schools are also of great benefit to a "traditional" duelist.

If you have a player who wants to be THE Duelist, and does not mind that they have to fight with one hand tied behind their backs at all other times? Keep to the vanilla 4th Edition.

So... Are you saying that a trade off of 28XP means having one hand tied behind their back all the time? Why 28XP? since that's the number of XP needed from a skill from 0 to 7. That seems a lot but when you're that far, it's not that much. I feel like the real cost difference is in the Rings/Traits needed, not in the skills departments.

The same could be say for an Akodo who wants to be THE Tactician or any Shosuro who wants to be THE Infiltrator. There's a trade off everywhere... I don't feel like the Duelist needs a favor more than any other type of character. Sure some has it more easy while others have a thougher road.

If you have a player who wants to be THE Duelist, and does not mind that they have to fight with one hand tied behind their backs at all other times? Keep to the vanilla 4th Edition.

So... Are you saying that a trade off of 28XP means having one hand tied behind their back all the time? Why 28XP? since that's the number of XP needed from a skill from 0 to 7. That seems a lot but when you're that far, it's not that much. I feel like the real cost difference is in the Rings/Traits needed, not in the skills departments.

The same could be say for an Akodo who wants to be THE Tactician or any Shosuro who wants to be THE Infiltrator. There's a trade off everywhere... I don't feel like the Duelist needs a favor more than any other type of character. Sure some has it more easy while others have a thougher road.

Don't forget the cost of also having improved Awareness, Reflexes, and Void.

Obviously these have other uses beyond the Iaijustsu duel, but you'd better have them if you don't want low kept dice to neutralize all those dice you have in the Iaijutsu skill.

Rolled dice are only so good, and never as good as Rolled and Kept dice.

In response to the 28 XP Argument, which should really be 30 XP for the Skill at 7, Plus Emphasis, i would say yes. I do consider it unreasonable that for the cost of an Attribute at 3 and Void 3, all you get is +7k0 to a roll someone in your party WILL need to make in most games.

Or a better way to think of it...

A lower barrier to entry means more PCs can participate in a part of the game. With Iaijutsu being an Emphasis of Kenjutsu, that is a 2 XP barrier to a central Skill to the concept of a samurai. Yes, you will still get some bushi (Tsuruchi with Bows, Hida with Tetsubo, Shiba with spears) for whom that still does not allow entry. But I would rather have more player characters be able to do more than have the Designated Awesome Moment for PC X.

Regarding being THE Tactician? You have two Advantages (Tactician & Strategist), and then the Battle Skill. Then you have to keep up your Perception as well, so it is actually more expensive to be the devoted Military Commander. And being THE Infiltrator requires a lot more Skills than just Stealth. In counterpoint, I would argue that Mass Battle and Infiltration are both less iconic to the L5R setting than Iaijutsu dueling.