There have been several places of discussion (and argument) regarding the L5R RPG and what it should look like under the FFG release. It is presumed that there will be an FFG release, likely in 2018, due to certain comments made by the FFG official Twitter feed.

FFG has a history of certain successful, and not so successful, RPGs. It is unknown at this point if the Roll & Keep system that the L5R RPG has used since its inception will also be sold to FFG, but at this point? Let us not assume that it will be.

So, aside from the actual physical mechanic of the Roll & Keep system, what do you feel is iconic to the L5R RPG? What do you feel should be changed to make the RPG better? What do you feel should be kept?

Here is my list:

• The setting of Rokugan - This is a gimme and a base line, true, but it should still be said and examined. I want the RPG to focus on Rokugan, with the possibility of supplemental material on the Colonies, the Yobanjin, and the Burning Sands. The focus should remain on the Emerald Empire, however.
• Timeline Neutrality - This is a mixed bag of worms and centipedes, but a step I think 4th Edition took correctly. L5R RPG should present Rokugan in a defautl iconic state, with the inclusion and support for all the Great Clans, including Spider and Mantis. Just make sure that the Unicorn, Spider, and Mantis come with sidebars explaining their historicity and how they operate in the canon timeline.
• Courtiers, Bushi, and Shugenja, oh my! - The three strong archetypes in the L5R RPG should be the warrior bushi, the social courtier, and the spiritual shugenja. Even if you take out Monks or relegate them to an optional rule, these three archetypes should be the heart of the game.
• Honor, Glory, Status, Infamy - Characters should have all 4 of these, and they should not be inherently opposed. Glory should be positive reputation, Infamy negative reputation, and you should be able to be recognized for either. Honor should be a mechanic central to the game as well, as how a character interacts with Bushido is a key thematic element.
• The Balance of the Five Rings - However these wind up getting used, the Rings need to be woven into the system on both a thematic and a mechanical aspect. All fields of conflict should be influenced by each of the five Rings. Combat in 4th Edition is a good example of this. Air and Earth are your defensive Rings, Water and Fire are your offensive Rings, and Void is your utility Ring. Each Ring has an associated Stance, each Ring impacts a different part of combat, and each Ring (save Void) is tied to a key Attribute for combat effectiveness.
• Schools & Techniques - While I feel that Insight is a bit of an outdated mechanic, reflecting the linear progression of its time, the idea of Techniques as closely held secrets of the Clans should remain. A Doji Courtier should feel and play different than a Bayushi Courtier. A Mirumoto Bushi should fight differently than a Hida Bushi. An Isawa Shugenja should approach magic from a different angle than an Iuchi Shugenja. Schools and Techniques were an effective ways of representing this.
• Spells - Remove Mastery Level. Return to the flat Difficulty (TN) of the 1st Edition, based on the effects of the spell. Mastery Level ties the spell too much to a sense of leveling, and is very inconsistent in its power steps. Instead, allow shugenja to learn a spell through use of a scroll, and let them try to master more powerful or rarer spells by either discovering them on their own through communing with the kami, being taught by a sensei, or uncovering magical secrets.
• Keep Mass Battle - The Mass Battle rules of L5R are some of the best at representing large scale conflicts and allowing the PCs to feel like they are part of it. Allow room for the development of an army system, like how the Way of the Daimyo tried to, but the Mass Battle Table is one of best preserved items from 1st Edition. If anything? Make it more accessible to PCs by rewarding risky behavior.
• Add Courtly Intrigue - L5R RPG is sorely lacking in clarification in exactly how Social skills work. Is Courtier mind-control? Does a character nailing that Sincerity check make you believe he is telling the truth, or merely that he THINKS he is telling the truth? How does a master of a courtly delegation get anything done when all her subordinates are useless? L5R RPG needs a solid Courtly Intrigue system wired into it from the bottom up.
• Big System, Little System - Just like Mass Battle & Skirmishes, there needs to be a way of addressing scale in L5R RPG. Have a Social Combat system? You also need a Mass Court system. Have a spell casting system? You also need a Ritual system where a bunch of shugenja work together.
• The Core Pillars of L5R - L5R RPG needs to maintain its focus on the three (or four) core pillars of what makes the game awesome: action-adventure, courtly intrigue, and supernatural fantasy. L5R RPG is not a game about exploration and survival, collecting loot and leveling your character, immortals and power games. L5R RPG is a game where samurai in a magical world struggle to live by an impossible, contradictory code while never being more than a sword's swing from death. As a game, L5R RPG has been able to handle hardcore horror, fascinating investigation, and many other styles of games. However, at its very core, it needs to support the action-adventure, courtly intrigue, and supernatural fantasy.
• Lethality!!! - L5R RPG needs to remain one of the deadliest RPGs in the world, but one where death is taken very seriously. Death is central to the samurai narrative, and like a good Western, no one should ever be comfortably free of the threat of a drawn weapon.

So, those are my thoughts for now. I would love to hear your thoughts, or your replies to mine. Anything is welcome, and as a request, please steer clear of the R&K vs. Star War Dice debate appearing everywhere else.

As a spider player, i would chime in on the timeline neutrality subject. its a good idea, but it has a pitfall. which spider do you include as your timeline neutral spider? the infiltration era pre-iweko era or the spider under Kanpeki? do you include the dark fortunism then? which daigotsu family bushi? the tainted ones like horde era daigotsu (rekai, hotako, etc)? what about the pure ones under kanpeki? the spider demonstrate HUGE variety and no matter what certain moderators on the AEG forum wanted to believe, 4e's handling of it was insufficient. it covered an extremely narrow version of the spider mechanically and left a lot of territory (customs, dark fortunism, etc) vague. granted, this is an area a lot of players don't care about, but for the spider players it was an ongoing frustration.

As a spider player, i would chime in on the timeline neutrality subject. its a good idea, but it has a pitfall. which spider do you include as your timeline neutral spider? the infiltration era pre-iweko era or the spider under Kanpeki? do you include the dark fortunism then? which daigotsu family bushi? the tainted ones like horde era daigotsu (rekai, hotako, etc)? what about the pure ones under kanpeki? the spider demonstrate HUGE variety and no matter what certain moderators on the AEG forum wanted to believe, 4e's handling of it was insufficient. it covered an extremely narrow version of the spider mechanically and left a lot of territory (customs, dark fortunism, etc) vague. granted, this is an area a lot of players don't care about, but for the spider players it was an ongoing frustration.

I think this is a key question, and one with a distinct answer.

Present the Iconic Spider Clan, a dark clan of samurai aligned with the Realm of Evil. Provide them with mechanics that can cover all stages of its existence. Make a Daigotsu Bushi School focused around personal, brutal strength, a Susumu Coutier school around being deceptive and hiding behind the power of others, and a Chuda shugenja school which falls in line with the other shugenja schools for techniques and abilities, but emphasizes their uniquely Tainted approach. The mechanics of the Spider Clan do not need to change a great deal from era to era, as long as the subject of the Taint and the "timeline of the Spider Clan" is discussed.

Yeah, the Spider really only even paid lip service to not using the Taint for, like, thirty years, and even then the bulk of their membership was Tainted. And when one considers how much of that thirty-year span was simply handwaved away for a time skip?

• Spells - Remove Mastery Level. Return to the flat Difficulty (TN) of the 1st Edition, based on the effects of the spell. Mastery Level ties the spell too much to a sense of leveling, and is very inconsistent in its power steps. Instead, allow shugenja to learn a spell through use of a scroll, and let them try to master more powerful or rarer spells by either discovering them on their own through communing with the kami, being taught by a sensei, or uncovering magical secrets.

I disagree with some and agree with most of what you say, but I wanted to comment on this specifically. I agree that doing what you say is very good to make the Shugenja less of a wizard and more of a priest, but I think that another thing should be done: remove specific spells altogether. Make the scale, bonus and rolls all a function of the shugenja School Level plus his Ring and just exemplify what he can achieve with that.

You cast a Fire spell to damage your enemies? Make your spellcasting roll and the DR is ALWAYS Ring K Ring. Want to hit more enemies? One per raise. If you cast a fire spell which is not supposed to damage, something to keep people from freezing to death in the winter for example, you automatically affect one people per Ring + School Level, two more per Raise. And so on.

A more free-form spellcasting would go a long way towards "de-wizarding" the Shugenja.

One of the main criticism I can make about the L5R system is its multi-tier components.

First, you have attributes and skills. Aside from a few weird examples, every system has those. L5R add a little complexity to the fray with the rings, composed of the lesser of two attributes and having an impact on both character progression and abilities.

Then you have advantages and disadvantages. Once again, many systems use those. However, add to them Techniques, Katas, Kihos, Spells, Taint powers, etc. and you have a tremendous amount of ways to add complexity to the game and modify how your character is defined.

You then have special attributes with specific rules attached to them: Honor, Glory, Status, Infamy and Taint. They each have rules that add once more to the complexity of the game.

My point is it's hard to draw a line about what makes L5R and what doesn't. Also, the feel of a setting doesn't necessarly need rules to back it. Honor is probably to important to get rid of, but it doesn't have to stay the same.

Glory, Status and Infamy are not essential parts of the setting, at least rules-wise. Removing them would not make it not l5r anymore. Many game system with complex society do not use them. It's simply part of the setting and acknowledged by the players, without the need of enforcing them with rules.

• Spells - Remove Mastery Level. Return to the flat Difficulty (TN) of the 1st Edition, based on the effects of the spell. Mastery Level ties the spell too much to a sense of leveling, and is very inconsistent in its power steps. Instead, allow shugenja to learn a spell through use of a scroll, and let them try to master more powerful or rarer spells by either discovering them on their own through communing with the kami, being taught by a sensei, or uncovering magical secrets.

I disagree with some and agree with most of what you say, but I wanted to comment on this specifically. I agree that doing what you say is very good to make the Shugenja less of a wizard and more of a priest, but I think that another thing should be done: remove specific spells altogether. Make the scale, bonus and rolls all a function of the shugenja School Level plus his Ring and just exemplify what he can achieve with that.

You cast a Fire spell to damage your enemies? Make your spellcasting roll and the DR is ALWAYS Ring K Ring. Want to hit more enemies? One per raise. If you cast a fire spell which is not supposed to damage, something to keep people from freezing to death in the winter for example, you automatically affect one people per Ring + School Level, two more per Raise. And so on.

A more free-form spellcasting would go a long way towards "de-wizarding" the Shugenja.

I disagree, because it would go against how magic is shown to work in both the old RPG system and the card game. Shugenjas use scrolls to cast spells. And these scrolls have specific abilities attached to them.

Yeah, the Spider really only even paid lip service to not using the Taint for, like, thirty years, and even then the bulk of their membership was Tainted. And when one considers how much of that thirty-year span was simply handwaved away for a time skip?

sure. but thats not the point. the point is that if you want to play in this era, the rules as presented in the 4e book are incomplete. they are not timeline neutral. the rules cannot even be used to stat the champion of the clan! thats preposterous. additionally, you don't take into account the relative popularity of that era. as the most recent one, it naturally receives the most attention, so its insane that the rules in the core book CANNOT be used to accurately portray the characters in the fictions being presented.

(edit: and before it gets raised, no, i don't consider "well just don't use the taint part of the school" a sufficient excuse)

look, i don't want to derail this thread. i fought this war with dace like 87 times and every single time it ended acrimoniously with the both of us sat in opposite corners by ling. lets leave it that as a spider rpg player, i found the spider rpg materials insufficient to play spider characters. and i was far from the only person saying so.

• Timeline Neutrality - This is a mixed bag of worms and centipedes, but a step I think 4th Edition took correctly. L5R RPG should present Rokugan in a defautl iconic state, with the inclusion and support for all the Great Clans, including Spider and Mantis. Just make sure that the Unicorn, Spider, and Mantis come with sidebars explaining their historicity and how they operate in the canon timeline.

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• Spells - Remove Mastery Level. Return to the flat Difficulty (TN) of the 1st Edition, based on the effects of the spell. Mastery Level ties the spell too much to a sense of leveling, and is very inconsistent in its power steps. Instead, allow shugenja to learn a spell through use of a scroll, and let them try to master more powerful or rarer spells by either discovering them on their own through communing with the kami, being taught by a sensei, or uncovering magical secrets.

• Big System, Little System - Just like Mass Battle & Skirmishes, there needs to be a way of addressing scale in L5R RPG. Have a Social Combat system? You also need a Mass Court system. Have a spell casting system? You also need a Ritual system where a bunch of shugenja work together.

• Lethality!!! - L5R RPG needs to remain one of the deadliest RPGs in the world, but one where death is taken very seriously. Death is central to the samurai narrative, and like a good Western, no one should ever be comfortably free of the threat of a drawn weapon.

Hope you don't mind, but I selected the ones I wanted to comment. The rest, I pretty much agree with you 100%

On Timeline Neutrality, I always felt that (and forgive me if I ruffle some feathers), that this was a lazy option. I mean, do you really need the book to tell you "You know, you can play in any specific time of the setting you want!"? Its also deceiving to think that the game was timeline neutral -upon its release-. The supplements, with a multitude of schools and details on past ages of Rokugan, made it Timeline Neutral - but upon its release, it was very much focused on the ongoing events of the CCG/Story. Suffice to say that the Spider were not a standard option, for example, and were relegated to sidebars, hinting they were meant as NPC antagonists.

Personally, I feel that I don't need a book to tell me I can play in whatever setting timeline I want. So, I much rather have the book focused on the current events, and later pick whatever additional books I want to expand on that setting (like, for example, Imperial Histories).

On Spells, I think the Mastery Level was a way to try and curb the power-level of the Shugenja. The intent was good, the implementation... well, that varies, depending on who you ask. Personally, I don't mind it too much as it gives a mechanical barrier that cannot be passed by munchkins & pals (and so, helps prevents the Wizard archetype from surfacing too much). I agree with the rest you said, although I -think- all those are options currently available to Shugenja. But I could be wrong.

On Big System, Little System, I disagree completely. By the setting's nature, Court is highly regulated and very structured - it's mentioned over and over again that Rokugani are very fond of keeping face and propriety - something that would quickly go out the window in a mass discussion, for example, as voices would need to be raised and tempers would quickly flare. Rituals... I think there was something about it written somewhere?

Lethality, I agree, but I'd add a caveat. I'm much more fond of the 3ed system, where the Wounds buffer is placed at the end of your pool, rather than at the start. That makes any combat MUCH more deadly, as Wound Penalties accumulate quickly and can mean the difference between survival or death.

can i ask: who doesn't like more books? i never got why AEG seemed so reluctant to put out splat books and so forth. i suppose the standard answer is mechanical creep? or financial constraints maybe. but is there a legitimate reason not to have more content? this ties back to timeline neutrality, in so much as why not have books for various timelines, or just more mechanics, tied to timelines? i guess i just like more good things.

I probably would throw the traits under the rings out and thusly make the rolls Ring + Skill and keep Ring. Initiative probably should be moved to another ring, Air is already far too strong of a ring.

The status scale is mostly useless, since it doesn't say that much anyway, so I would throw it out and directly say how much certain social position are worth. The crap that monks cannot have glory is something I never understood, especially since there are lots of very famous minks in japanese history, who got their fame for stuff that L5R handles with glory (like some poets but also some monks who got famous for their martial prowess).

• Courtiers, Bushi, and Shugenja, oh my! - The three strong archetypes in the L5R RPG should be the warrior bushi, the social courtier, and the spiritual shugenja. Even if you take out Monks or relegate them to an optional rule, these three archetypes should be the heart of the game.
• Honor, Glory, Status, Infamy - Characters should have all 4 of these, and they should not be inherently opposed. Glory should be positive reputation, Infamy negative reputation, and you should be able to be recognized for either. Honor should be a mechanic central to the game as well, as how a character interacts with Bushido is a key thematic element.
• The Balance of the Five Rings - However these wind up getting used, the Rings need to be woven into the system on both a thematic and a mechanical aspect. All fields of conflict should be influenced by each of the five Rings. Combat in 4th Edition is a good example of this. Air and Earth are your defensive Rings, Water and Fire are your offensive Rings, and Void is your utility Ring. Each Ring has an associated Stance, each Ring impacts a different part of combat, and each Ring (save Void) is tied to a key Attribute for combat effectiveness.
• Schools & Techniques - While I feel that Insight is a bit of an outdated mechanic, reflecting the linear progression of its time, the idea of Techniques as closely held secrets of the Clans should remain. A Doji Courtier should feel and play different than a Bayushi Courtier. A Mirumoto Bushi should fight differently than a Hida Bushi. An Isawa Shugenja should approach magic from a different angle than an Iuchi Shugenja. Schools and Techniques were an effective ways of representing this.
• Spells - Remove Mastery Level. Return to the flat Difficulty (TN) of the 1st Edition, based on the effects of the spell. Mastery Level ties the spell too much to a sense of leveling, and is very inconsistent in its power steps. Instead, allow shugenja to learn a spell through use of a scroll, and let them try to master more powerful or rarer spells by either discovering them on their own through communing with the kami, being taught by a sensei, or uncovering magical secrets.
• Add Courtly Intrigue - L5R RPG is sorely lacking in clarification in exactly how Social skills work. Is Courtier mind-control? Does a character nailing that Sincerity check make you believe he is telling the truth, or merely that he THINKS he is telling the truth? How does a master of a courtly delegation get anything done when all her subordinates are useless? L5R RPG needs a solid Courtly Intrigue system wired into it from the bottom up.

Okay, first thing I pointed out. Status as stat can go. It is a weird representation of status anyway. Since it simply does not work on a linear scale. Scorpion Clan Champions can't boss around a Crane Clan Samurai.

I also think that Glory, Infamy and Status only did one thing in the rounds we played. It helps you to identify people. You could roll them all up into one stat, perhaps called Fame, and Status, Glory and Infamy is the main reason why the person is known.

The trinity of Courtier, Samurai and Shugenja is something I fully support. However this ties into two other points you mentioned: The missing courtly intrigue and the fact that most Courtier techniques are terribly bad.

I think the Schools and Techniques system should get a overhaul in general. The Insight system is a mix of a leveling system like DnD and a free point by system like GURPS. Just more or less worst of both worlds. Perhaps have them behave more like a tree why you can unlock with other techniques and buy them with XP. Calculating the insight rank was always quite annoying.

Spells could work similar. Having mastered certain prayers as a requirement to learn others. I think the DC method does not really work since you can min-max your Shugenja to beat very high DCs early on which makes them even more unbalanced then they are right now.

Balance of the Five Rings is a topic I spend quite some time home-brewing. On the AEG board I have written a conversion to remove the traits from the game and just focus on rings and skills. Also introducing stances as something that works in every situation of life not just combat. I think to have 8 traits and the Void ring to balance against each other was always problematic. The dominance of Awareness skills for all things social and Reflexes for Initiative, Armor TN, Air stance casting and Kyujutsu basically made the Air ring extremely powerful. Which is especially jarring considering the importance of the Air traits in duels besides the Void Ringof course, This made Air Shugenja all around power houses, by just focusing on Air and Void.

The status scale is mostly useless, since it doesn't say that much anyway, so I would throw it out and directly say how much certain social position are worth.

That... is exactly what the status scale is...

The crap that monks cannot have glory is something I never understood, especially since there are lots of very famous minks in japanese history, who got their fame for stuff that L5R handles with glory (like some poets but also some monks who got famous for their martial prowess).

Monks have and can gain Glory and Status.

Okay, first thing I pointed out. Status as stat can go. It is a weird representation of status anyway. Since it simply does not work on a linear scale. Scorpion Clan Champions can't boss around a Crane Clan Samurai.

I also think that Glory, Infamy and Status only did one thing in the rounds we played. It helps you to identify people. You could roll them all up into one stat, perhaps called Fame, and Status, Glory and Infamy is the main reason why the person is known.

The trinity of Courtier, Samurai and Shugenja is something I fully support. However this ties into two other points you mentioned: The missing courtly intrigue and the fact that most Courtier techniques are terribly bad.

I think the Schools and Techniques system should get a overhaul in general. The Insight system is a mix of a leveling system like DnD and a free point by system like GURPS. Just more or less worst of both worlds. Perhaps have them behave more like a tree why you can unlock with other techniques and buy them with XP. Calculating the insight rank was always quite annoying.

Spells could work similar. Having mastered certain prayers as a requirement to learn others. I think the DC method does not really work since you can min-max your Shugenja to beat very high DCs early on which makes them even more unbalanced then they are right now.

Balance of the Five Rings is a topic I spend quite some time home-brewing. On the AEG board I have written a conversion to remove the traits from the game and just focus on rings and skills. Also introducing stances as something that works in every situation of life not just combat. I think to have 8 traits and the Void ring to balance against each other was always problematic. The dominance of Awareness skills for all things social and Reflexes for Initiative, Armor TN, Air stance casting and Kyujutsu basically made the Air ring extremely powerful. Which is especially jarring considering the importance of the Air traits in duels besides the Void Ringof course, This made Air Shugenja all around power houses, by just focusing on Air and Void.

IMHO, there is a need for a Status stat, as it is a representation of the game's hierarchy. The linear scale exists - within the same hierarchy. I think the problem lies there. Just a sugestion, but it may help if you think of the clans as the correspondent to different countries (united under one Supreme Ruler, the Emperor) - then the whole Status thing makes sense.

Your idea of leveling makes me think of the Final Fantasy games Personally, I loved it... but I fear that such a thing works only with an associated visual representation (such as the game's graphics of the leveling system). Something abstract, like what we have in a RPG, is better served by the equally abstract notion of a numeric scale (such as Insight and XP)

On Shugenja, I really like focusing on their priestly role within society. The Sparrow's Fate was one of my favorite stories, because it really focused on the ritual of Rokugani religion and the power of a shugenja's prayers (though there was also some jade fire too). It is hard to pull this off though in a world that is shared by the card game. If Shugenja in the card game are flinging around fireballs and and jade striking things, then players of Shugenja in the roleplaying game are probably going to want to do the same things. However, this can be challenging.

If you want to leave some narrative space between bushi-shugejna-courtier then bushi should not be as good at courtly intrigue as courtiers, nor should courtiers be as good at combat as bushi. This distinction seems pretty well made in the current iteration of the game. What is missing is that shugenja don't seem to have a very defined role. They can be devastating combatants or maestros of court given the right builds. This blurs the lines of the three archetypes, and if shugenja are going to blur the lines, they probably should not be better at combat or courtly intrigue than bushi or courtiers, respectively. Not to say they can't do these things, just as a courtier can still pick up a sword and fight, but they probably shouldn't be better at these things.

I would submit that shugenja really should focus on the spiritual aspect of the setting. Their prayers (which shouldn't be called spells really) should be about talking to the spirits, healing the spirits, finding spiritual diseases, etc. A player who rolls up a shugenja character should be signaling to the GM that she wants to play a story involving the spiritual side of Rokugan, in the same way that a player who creates a courtier is signaling that they want to play a story involving courtly intrigue. Right now, it seems like creating a shugenja mostly signals wanting to be a wizard.

a whole bunch of hella right on stuff

QFT dude. i think it would almost be worth going back into the setting and splitting out the priestly role from the wizard role so that there would be some visibility for the priest role. its one i've often wanted to see more of, but as you say, when you can bring the thunder that often obscures the praying part.

Yeah, the Spider really only even paid lip service to not using the Taint for, like, thirty years, and even then the bulk of their membership was Tainted. And when one considers how much of that thirty-year span was simply handwaved away for a time skip?

I quite liked where it was(n't) heading with Susumu Shibatsu. Then again, I've wanted a setting where it's possible to play an untainted, honourable, obsidian magistrate on the side of the empire ... roughly since I received my 4th edition core book. At least, without bending over backwards to justify it.

I may have brought this up elsewhere, but I don't believe long lists of relatively useless weapons do L5R any favours. They're not the focus of the game, but they have been held onto as some kind of variety that fourth edition didn't actually want. Take that a step further, and abstract it to the features of (say a dozen) weapon archetypes.

The Setting

Controversial, perhaps, but I'd like to see each clan given a bit more leeway in presenting itself, so players are aware that their chosen faction has more honourable / dishonourable / corrupt / divinely pure characters and sub-factions than can be easily stamped out. Done well, I'd imagine this could curb certain "Well, my clan wouldn't do that." tendencies.

IMHO, there is a need for a Status stat, as it is a representation of the game's hierarchy. The linear scale exists - within the same hierarchy. I think the problem lies there. Just a sugestion, but it may help if you think of the clans as the correspondent to different countries (united under one Supreme Ruler, the Emperor) - then the whole Status thing makes sense.

The problem I have with status is that I do realize that it only works within one hierarchy. But there are two problems with that:

1. Extremely narrow use of my Status numerical value. Military titles only gives me power over the people assigned to me but not to the military people assigned to another person of equal status. My hierarchy is restricted to the people directly assigned to me, not to the people with lower numbers then me even if they are part of the same military.

2. I am usually part of more then one hierarchy. I am Yasuki Hachi, Daimyo of the Yasuki, part of the Crane Clan, part of the Crab Clan and Emerald Champion. And this is a canonical example. What single number do you attach to such a guy. Obviously he is subject to two lords but a lord himself. So the two Clan Champion effectively looses direct control over a daimyo due to his Status as Emerald Champion, however in the end he can't do what he want either. In the end this is a very delicate situation where one number does a poor job of representing the relationship between the three Champions.

In the end the question remains. Why have a number which only works in very narrow scenarios but even when it works it might break because of the multiple commitments people are usually in.

Of course your Status is a measurement for respect you gain from having a fancy title. But in this sense your Status fills the same roll as Glory or Infamy does. It makes you known to other people and you gain respect for that. Don't get me wrong I don't think this concept should be abolished altogether, but do we have 3 stats which do effectively the same thing, just in different flavors.

And so I can condense them to one Stat and a Flavor I write next to the number. Fame: 6 Flavor: Infamy. A guy you is fairly famous and a person of respect, however mostly because people fear him and not because he is such a cool guy or has a fancy title.

I am Yasuki Hachi, Daimyo of the Yasuki, part of the Crane Clan, part of the Crab Clan and Emerald Champion. And this is a canonical example. What single number do you attach to such a guy. Obviously he is subject to two lords but a lord himself.

Emerald Champion (9.0) when carrying out the duties of office. Great Clan Family Daimyo (7.0) when acting on behalf of either family. Yes, there can be conflict of interest or abuse of power when you're at that level. I'd consider such conflict and divided obligations to be a feature of the setting, not a bug.

Military titles only gives me power over the people assigned to me but not to the military people assigned to another person of equal status.

Not if you're using 4e.

a Lion of Status 3 can usually issue orders to another Lion of Status 2. Samurai must always be careful in doing so, however, and make sure they do not interrupt or countermand the orders of a different samurai with an even greater Status than their own.

I am actually not a fan of super-lethality. Super-lethality discourages physical conflict and tuns combat into critical conflict of "win and continue playing, or die and abandon the character/campaign"; which in turn "forces" GM to only setup fights that are in favor of PCs, botching rolls, or/and softballing encounters. Stories where swords are dangerous are cool, but dead character tells no tales, their own included. So I'm against making anything super-deadly in default rules; optional sidebar with "to increase lethality, drop Wounds multiplier to x1, and to decrease lethality, buff it to x3" is something I approve instead. We "fixed" the lethality by giving out Great Destiny/Dark Fate to every player character for free.

As for Rings - actually, each Ring in combat gives you both offense and defense, althought often in non intuitive, indirect way.

Earth gives you defense by giving you more life (duh), but also offense...because your Wound Ranks are longer. This means that if you are hit for 20 damage, and your opponent also is hit for 20 damage, if you are higher Earth, you will have less Wound Penalties than your opponent, effectively having offensive edge equal to your difference in Wounds Penalties on your opponent. This can be called offensive bonus (because both of you are subject to the same penalty, but you are influenced by it less, having more room to attack).

Air can be offensive by giving you more Initative, which encourages both stance dancing and alpha striking full attacks; having high ATN also makes Full Attack less of a pain. Ability to delay initiative is also powerful offensive tool.

Defensive use of Fire is very funny. Basically, by having good Agility, you will probably be able to have enough on your rolls to hit your opponents...and then some. While you usually spend that "some" on Raises, you can spend 5 of it on dual-wielding for extra ATN (clearly, a defensive bonus) and upgrade your armor to Heavy, which is again, +5TN for your attacks in exchange for more ATN and better reduction. If you are not a Crab, you can't really pull it off without having proper Fire.

Water is offense (damage, maneuvers) and defense (movement).

For Shugenjas - yeah, I don't like spells and spell bloat. And yes, spell bloat is rooted in desire to copy CCG's "spell cards", which were easy to mine for tons and tons of spell to write into the game. Still, for RPG...I wouldn't mind ditching spells, and if you are keeping the 5 Ranks - 5 Techniques progression, then instead make each rank a general ability that allows you to do "stuff" with your spells.

For techniques and Courtier/Bushi/Shuggie - I really think that Ranks/Techniques model was fun, but I'm kinda tired of how unflexible it is. I'm a person who dislikes playing mechanically similar characters without having some kind of break between them - and the fact that most "X bushi" plays very similar due to techniques being big game changers means that usually I'm "locked out" of a Clan after playing it once. That, and two bushi of the same school in the same party are kinda...you know.

Which is why I really like idea of Courtier/Bushi/Something ability trees, where you buy up your perks however you prefer, and without being chained to one tree for your lifetime; this way you can have Bushi who also dabbles in Courtly affairs, and Courtier who has some Bushi training, emphasized by more than just having few dots in kenjutsu. Again, freedom in character creation is good.

Okay, first thing I pointed out. Status as stat can go. It is a weird representation of status anyway. Since it simply does not work on a linear scale. Scorpion Clan Champions can't boss around a Crane Clan Samurai.

I also think that Glory, Infamy and Status only did one thing in the rounds we played. It helps you to identify people. You could roll them all up into one stat, perhaps called Fame, and Status, Glory and Infamy is the main reason why the person is known.

I agree with Yandia. The status number is a big problem in Game. The reason why I see it as problem is that it either snaps the game like a twig or it is very weak if not useless. The reason for this is that in a normal RPG group

you either play a party of one clan, which actually gives the person with the highest status the ability to order all other players arround (this is surely not a fun thing to play in) or you have different clans where the only status interaction could come from people of you own clan and depending on the setting it this can flutuate to much. In a greater setting like the wintercourt the status actually becomes a even bigger problem since you have people of the same hierachy there whcih can and will order you arround cause their status gives them the ability for it and will restrict your freedom of decsion making or even let your char commit sepukku.

While I think the display of the hierachy is important I think we need a system which is a bit more abstract and does not lead to siuations where another player is playing your char. Therefore I would prefer to drop status and get mroe emphasis on the glory for player characters. So if you get famous enough people could decide to listen to the ideas of the famous hero of the beiden pass but are not forced too.

For the NPc hierachy I think the title is enough the emperor clearly is the highest person in the setting and his word is law. From there you can put of a hierachy of titles until you reach the normal Samurai.

For the matter of advancing inside of this structure I also woud only use titles. This woul prevent that the basline Samurai can oder the other one arround based on a abstract number of status and would also givethe feeling that you actually earned your power when getting promoted to a Daimyo for example. In the end the numerical tracking of status is something the game simply does not need and I think it would be better without it.

The trinity of Courtier, Samurai and Shugenja is something I fully support. However this ties into two other points you mentioned: The missing courtly intrigue and the fact that most Courtier techniques are terribly bad.

I think the Schools and Techniques system should get a overhaul in general. The Insight system is a mix of a leveling system like DnD and a free point by system like GURPS. Just more or less worst of both worlds. Perhaps have them behave more like a tree why you can unlock with other techniques and buy them with XP. Calculating the insight rank was always quite annoying.

Bayushi Karudo

Your idea of leveling makes me think of the Final Fantasy games Personally, I loved it... but I fear that such a thing works only with an associated visual representation (such as the game's graphics of the leveling system). Something abstract, like what we have in a RPG, is better served by the equally abstract notion of a numeric scale (such as Insight and XP)

Actuall there are such tree based systems. If Iam not totaly wrong the Warhammer 40 K did this with the character pathes I really liked the system. They actuall introduce a tree which tells you which options you have on the way of your char and how much exp you need to reach the next step of it. Acording to the path you take you can get different skills and talents which sometimes have prequesistes and sometimes not. The system itself while being not as open in the choosing of skills and talents as it could be is still something I like and can see to be implemented for the L5r game since it is restrictive enough to repesent the school approach while it is free enough to still emphasis things like individual pathes and development. Actually Warhammer shows that a tree system can work without the visual addtion and I think it would be a good way to go for the L5r game.

For the spells I think I want a system which more degrees and options when it comes to the approach of how priestly/wizardly you want to be. When looking at the Isawa or Agasha I never got the feeling of them being very preist like cause both seemed to me more pragmatic and seeing the Kami more a good tool to help them in life. On the other Hand we have people like the Asahina with their totaly peace ideology which actually fit more into the priest role. I think if we do a new shugenja system we should get a Shug school for each flavor so that you can play either a more wizard like shug or a more priest like one depending on the path you go.

This could be supported by spells and techniques you can get. I also think the Idea of Yandia to give spells prequisites is a good one since it is also hinted in the different elemental books that some spells evolved from others and represent a better version of them. Why not make this a rule and say ok if you want to go for castle of fire you need wall of fire first since you need to understand the basics to be able to understand how the edvanced spell works.

The prequisite conecept would bing some balance into the shugenja and would delay sudden powerspikes a bit without putting the shugenja straight down in the potenial power he can get.

I also can support the need of clear courter mechanics. I can´t count the number of times this year I had the dicusion that the courter skil is not mindcontrol. Everytime when I try to come up with a social intriuge system with somehow involves the dice as deciding factor it comes down to you do not mind control us. I think a offcial system is needed here more than in any other part of the game to finaly clarify that a missed defense with eitquette against a courtier or sincerity roll has a consquence for a player at all. Decsribing what the skill is doing is simpyl not enough we need a system simular to the combat system which says if you do x than roll for exmaple courtierAwarness and keep awarness. This will be restisted with Etiquette/Awarness keep Awarness. If you miss to resist than you find his argument compelling and will asist him.

I mean actually this is what argueing does you present an Argument to the other person and if it is compelling enough he believes it and will act on it. This is what the Social skill are representing but somehow acting after it suddendly turns into Mindcontrol. Therefore we need a clear system here which is no longer leaving room for this mind control discussion.

As possible solution I would go for a system which emphasises both the roll and the words used. I think for a normal group the roll should be enough since here you have only a few people which could talk to each other and I think it is managble with a good system of checks as basis for these interactions. This would be supported by an optional system which can get bonus points for the roll based on the words and formulation used when you want it. The tought behind it is that for larger groups or forum/chat based games the roll could turn out to luck based etc and since people have to keep to the book for these games to prevent negative feelings from the players towards them I think a system which supports actual woring and formulation of the arguments shoudl be rewarded and reduce the feeling of he just got better than me cause his roll was higher.

This is a support system since I don´t want to set people who can´t phrase their arguments as well as others at a disadvangate but just give both sides equal chances to win the argument be it based on a roll or based on the wording.

One of tricks I noticed in some games is that people hate being "forced" to do something social due to a failed roll, but will happily do it on their own if presented a choice. Example:

-You failed your roll. You believe him.

"No I don't!"

vs

-You failed your roll. You may believe him, or take 10 Wounds, or lose X Honor, or lose X Glory, or leave a bad impression that will make your rolls harder in this court.

"Hmm...let me see...ok, I'll believe him."

Difference is that in one situation you are forced with no wiggling room, which is perceived as assault and doing you wrong for something that was outside of your control (people often perceive bad dice rolls as something they didn't deserve, something wronging them, not something they are responsible for), and in other you are picking your own poison, but whatever happens to you, it's still *your choice*, which means that even if the outcome is the same, people might react to it totally differently.

Why there is no need for such things in combat? Because combat doesn't blurr the line between "me, my character" as much as social encounters, where often, character having to change their mind equals to player having to change her mind.

EDIT

Kinda like tricking children

"Eat that carrot!"
"NO!!!!!"

vs

"Do you want to eat ONE carrot, or THREE carrots?"

"One carrot!!"

Ah, the diplomacy double standard. PCs expect their courtier to be able to change people's mind with a single roll, but consider NPCs doing the same to them mind-control.

As possible solution I would go for a system which emphasises both the roll and the words used. I think for a normal group the roll should be enough since here you have only a few people which could talk to each other and I think it is managble with a good system of checks as basis for these interactions. This would be supported by an optional system which can get bonus points for the roll based on the words and formulation used when you want it. The tought behind it is that for larger groups or forum/chat based games the roll could turn out to luck based etc and since people have to keep to the book for these games to prevent negative feelings from the players towards them I think a system which supports actual woring and formulation of the arguments shoudl be rewarded and reduce the feeling of he just got better than me cause his roll was higher.

This is a support system since I don´t want to set people who can´t phrase their arguments as well as others at a disadvangate but just give both sides equal chances to win the argument be it based on a roll or based on the wording.

It will either

a) become a bonus that is ticked "automatically", becoming always-on part of the roll and putting you where you started, because dice roll will be the deciding factor; assuming that, for example, this is always "A Free Raise for good argument"; everyone is going to have good arguments, at least by their standards! This is a good trick for encouraging roleplaying in general, "put some effort into description to gain substantial bonus; come on, it isn't that hard, you want this Free Raise, right?", and "See, your roleplaying was cool even though you thought its silly and embarassing, and it even got rewarded! You totally will do it again, won't you?"

Still, in most cases, it boils down to "I put some effort into description, so I get a bonus", which in turn boils down to "this is always on for everybody, so we are equal in that matter".

b) if it's graded, then you open a whole new can of worm where people will feel bashed after their argument only got +1, while their opponents got +2; people hate being judged, and this can actively discourage people from game or roleplaying in general. When someone is playing courtier, he doesn't want to hear that his arguments are crap in comparision to that other guy. Judging arguments is bad, because it leads to people being judged themselves.

As possible solution I would go for a system which emphasises both the roll and the words used. I think for a normal group the roll should be enough since here you have only a few people which could talk to each other and I think it is managble with a good system of checks as basis for these interactions. This would be supported by an optional system which can get bonus points for the roll based on the words and formulation used when you want it. The tought behind it is that for larger groups or forum/chat based games the roll could turn out to luck based etc and since people have to keep to the book for these games to prevent negative feelings from the players towards them I think a system which supports actual woring and formulation of the arguments shoudl be rewarded and reduce the feeling of he just got better than me cause his roll was higher.

This is a support system since I don´t want to set people who can´t phrase their arguments as well as others at a disadvangate but just give both sides equal chances to win the argument be it based on a roll or based on the wording.

It will either

a) become a bonus that is ticked "automatically", becoming always-on part of the roll and putting you where you started, because dice roll will be the deciding factor; assuming that, for example, this is always "A Free Raise for good argument"; everyone is going to have good arguments, at least by their standards! This is a good trick for encouraging roleplaying in general, "put some effort into description to gain substantial bonus; come on, it isn't that hard, you want this Free Raise, right?", and "See, your roleplaying was cool even though you thought its silly and embarassing, and it even got rewarded! You totally will do it again, won't you?"

Still, in most cases, it boils down to "I put some effort into description, so I get a bonus", which in turn boils down to "this is always on for everybody, so we are equal in that matter".

b) if it's graded, then you open a whole new can of worm where people will feel bashed after their argument only got +1, while their opponents got +2; people hate being judged, and this can actively discourage people from game or roleplaying in general. When someone is playing courtier, he doesn't want to hear that his arguments are crap in comparision to that other guy. Judging arguments is bad, because it leads to people being judged themselves.

Actually somewhere we need to get something to regulate the mechnics because as they now are you can leave them. The reason for it is pretty clear cause the skills are actually doing nothing at al cause veryone can go the I don´t want mindcontroled/judged path. also I don´t think it is bad to get a regulation for the arguments. You are right that it should not be a gneral formulation and become an allways on bonus. What I have in mind is more like a clear structure and a list of guidelines which can help the GM to adjust the number of bonus points you get. For example you get bonus points for bringing up a argument which proves a part of the others argument wrong or discredits his argumentation witnesses etc.

Yes I think this needs a complete overhaul but I don´t think we shoudl shun a way from new methods onyl cause we fear people could dislike it because to be honest the current system made me quitting to want to play courtier in the most groups since in comparrsion to a Bushi were I know that the way I do dmg to npcs /pc is widely accepted as a form of rules ( Roll attack, compare it to the ATN, deal dmg if you are better) somehow the social combat system does not find the acceptance despite having potential for the same skills (Courtier is attack, Eitquette is defense). this actually makes playing a courtier very frustrating atm since in contrast to a bushi you can´t be sure that you will be sucessfull based on your skills since the person you are talking to can just decide to screw you up.

Ah, the diplomacy double standard. PCs expect their courtier to be able to change people's mind with a single roll, but consider NPCs doing the same to them mind-control.

I for my part can say that I don´t make this difference. if an Npc gets the better of me I go for it. Failures also are part of the game and can make intresting stories.

The way I have usually handled Social rolls in L5R is that, usually, NPCs are swayable, PCs are punishable.

What I mean by that:

• PCs can use active Social skills, like Intimidation, Temptation, and Courtier, to sway NPCs towards the way they want.
• PCs can use passive Social skills, like Etiquette and Sincerity, to prevent accusations of lies or social faux pas.
• NPCs can use active Social skills to impose consequences on a PC for not going along with them. Courtier in open court? Disagree with the courtier, and lose Honor and Glory from a Breach of Etiquette. Don't back down to the Intimidate check in the back alley? Suffer dice penalties in the ensuing combat from Fear. I usually don't need to have consequences for Temptation checks, though. My players are usually good with those.

And for everyone choosing bits and pieces of mine to respond to? Please do! Discussion is a good thing, and hopefully someone at FFG will see what we are talking about and use it for research on the next edition of L5R RPG.

Yeah, the Spider really only even paid lip service to not using the Taint for, like, thirty years, and even then the bulk of their membership was Tainted. And when one considers how much of that thirty-year span was simply handwaved away for a time skip?

sure. but thats not the point. the point is that if you want to play in this era, the rules as presented in the 4e book are incomplete. they are not timeline neutral. the rules cannot even be used to stat the champion of the clan! thats preposterous. additionally, you don't take into account the relative popularity of that era. as the most recent one, it naturally receives the most attention, so its insane that the rules in the core book CANNOT be used to accurately portray the characters in the fictions being presented.

(edit: and before it gets raised, no, i don't consider "well just don't use the taint part of the school" a sufficient excuse)

look, i don't want to derail this thread. i fought this war with dace like 87 times and every single time it ended acrimoniously with the both of us sat in opposite corners by ling. lets leave it that as a spider rpg player, i found the spider rpg materials insufficient to play spider characters. and i was far from the only person saying so.

I will say that it was odd, reading about how the Taint had been made non-contagious, and then finding the rules in the base RPG seemingly written for contagious Taint.