I think they should make a "TIE Advanced Expansion Pack Second Edition", and the same with all other "fixed" ships, and after the original expansion packs have gone out of print and the stocks are depleting, replace the old pack with the new pack, with the "Second Edition" clearly shown on the front. Like that, both newbies and veterans would have a reason to buy the new pack, because it would bring something interesting for everyone.

I can't disagree with this, especially on the TIE advanced and A-wing, but I doubt they'll do it.

There's a strong element of players treating the most popular loadout for a ship with words like "autoinclude" when they shouldn't. The very nature of interchangeable upgrade cards means that there are going to be loadouts people like that draw from multiple ships. You can't avoid that short of packaging every upgrade card you'll ever make into every ship, which'd both be prohibitively expensive and require a time machine.

It's when a ship has no decent loadout out of the box (looking at the TIE advanced here) that I think they should really update the blisters.

The "problem" is when fixes for a ship are spread over multiple releases. The TIE Interceptor example above is a good one. To fly Soontir Fel, one of the most popular pilots in the game, you need to buy the TIE Interceptor expansion, Imperial Aces expansion and then the Starviper expansion.

I wonder what a Soontir Fel, Darth Vader, and ??? Turr maybe, build would cost if you bought them in order.

1 x TIE Interceptor for Soontir

1 x Imperial Aces for PTL or maybe Carnor if not using Turr???

1 x TIE Advanced for Darth Vader

1 x Raider - for TIE Advanced Title

1 x Defender - Predator for Vader but maybe there's a better build - what is best on Vader?

2 x Slave 1 (if you got them in order) for Stealth but the M3A comes with them now

1 x Star Viper for 2 Auto-Thrusters.

Just a thought, what is a good build for a single Soontir/Vader squad and what would it cost?

Just because you can proxy cards does not make OP's request unreasonable. Updating expansions is a very consumer-friendly approach and I'm not sure how you can dispute that. I've bought expansions just for a single card, but that doesn't mean I should wish new players to endure the same punishment. It's nice to actually have the official cards to make your ship playable, tournament or no, first off. Secondly, I do think that the cost barrier for tournament entry should be as reasonable as possible, and if someone wants to fly a competitive TIE Advanced, buying the $100 Raider shouldn't be the only official channel to do so.

Have more respect for yourselves as consumers, people. Most of us give FFG money quite regularly, myself included.

I wonder what a Soontir Fel, Darth Vader, and ??? Turr maybe, build would cost if you bought them in order.

1 x TIE Interceptor for Soontir

1 x Imperial Aces for PTL or maybe Carnor if not using Turr???

1 x TIE Advanced for Darth Vader

1 x Raider - for TIE Advanced Title

1 x Defender - Predator for Vader but maybe there's a better build - what is best on Vader?

2 x Slave 1 (if you got them in order) for Stealth but the M3A comes with them now

1 x Star Viper for 2 Auto-Thrusters.

Just a thought, what is a good build for a single Soontir/Vader squad and what would it cost?

Soontir35, Vader w/ Predator, EU & x1, and Palpatine in a shuttle, perhaps.

- TIE Interceptor

- Imperial Aces

- TIE Advance

- Raider

- Slave 1 or Scyk

- StarViper

- Lambda Shuttle

- Defender & Millenium Falcon or Kithrax & Hounds Tooth.

... Interesting how well Scum helps round out the Imperial toolkit, looking at that.

Vader not having Advanced Targeting Computer doesn't seem like a good mix? He has two actions so wouldn't that be a perfect choice?

I like the idea of new expansions with alternative paint schemes and the 'fix' cards because I'm a collector and a player. Aces style but in regular size blister expansions.

But...

I think FFG will solve this problem by dishing out Alt Art upgrades in the tournament kits. C3PO was a good start. As long as we get a grip of the "fix" cards in each of the future kits, we should be cool by the end of 2016.

P.S. Would the Raider had sold for around $100... without the fix? I'm trying to consider it a bonus. My gut says FFG will release a new TIE Adv....maybe "Darth Vader's TIE" to go along with the Wave8 "Inquisitor's TIE".

Why are people comparing xwing to 40k as if that should make everyone feel better? 40k is an overly expensive bore of a game that isn't even balanced properly.

Just because FFG isn't ripping of its customer base nearly as bad as GW doesn't justify a thing.

This is a great game. But the business model of how they release upgrades is an utter joke that no one can defend.

Even at a marked up price they need to sell cards individually.

And proxy is a bogus fix. Nobody wants to proxy cards just to play a competent Vader. Mine as well just proxy everything and start 3d printing ships.

Releasing a small ship upgrade fix card in a huge ship is such a screw to the customer base. We bought the product already and it's not the customere fault that FFG failed to properly play test and design a ship that is balanced enough to play as is.

They dropped the ball at the design stage and the customer shouldn't have to clean up the mess.

The ship is still perfectly valid without the additional optional upgrade card sold with another ship. No ball dropped.

You want to use the ship competitively without that card? You're all set. You want to use that card competitively? Buy the other ship containing the card and gain more build options (it comes with more than 1 card you didn't already have).

Everyone gets a trophy when they play soccer. Then they turn 9 years old and realize soccer sucks and that even though they won't always get a trophy in competitions, the challenge is worth it because it's better than playing soccer. Same principle here... if you want to compete you have to put in the work to practice with the ships and cards you have. If you're limiting yourself to less options for any reason then it's on you to make what you have work harder than your opponent's list. Having expensive cards isn't auto win. Lacking them isnt auto lose. But not everyone goes home with a trophy.

Why are people comparing xwing to 40k as if that should make everyone feel better? 40k is an overly expensive bore of a game that isn't even balanced properly.

It is however the market leader when it comes to miniature war gaming so it's perfectly valid to compare them to each other.

You can make a tournament competitive list for x-wing under £100 you can't say the same for 40k your more likely looking at half a grand not to mention the time needed to build and paint the armies or get someone professional to do that on commission.

When you compare something it's usually to the market leader.

Just because FFG isn't ripping of its customer base nearly as bad as GW doesn't justify a thing.

You think FFG are ripping people off but most of us don't share that opinion because we've played far more expensive systems.

This is a great game. But the business model of how they release upgrades is an utter joke that no one can defend.

Nonsense while not perfect releasing upgrade cards in new ships is way better than having to wait years for a new army book like you do with GW.

You don't need the cards you want the cards, it's perfectly possible to make lists using alternatives.

People run interceptors with targeting computers and shield upgrade instead of autothrusters and still do well.

And proxy is a bogus fix. Nobody wants to proxy cards just to play a competent Vader. Mine as well just proxy everything and start 3d printing ships.

Again in your opinion but loads on these forums proxy in casual play trying upgrades as they are spoiled, heck every single person using vassel is proxying the ships and upgrades.

I was using ATC and the advanced title months before the raider finally arrived no one moaned in my group and i have never objected to anyone else trying upgrades.

Releasing a small ship upgrade fix card in a huge ship is such a screw to the customer base. We bought the product already and it's not the customere fault that FFG failed to properly play test and design a ship that is balanced enough to play as is.

How do you play test against stuff not only not released yet but not even conceived?

How do you possibly think of every combination your millions of customers are going to invent?

At least ffg is actively trying to make everything competitive that's a hell of alot more than some other companies do, would you prefer they left the advanced designed right at the start of the game useless?

They dropped the ball at the design stage and the customer shouldn't have to clean up the mess.

Different dev's from three years ago who were not designing a tournament game but something for mates to mess around with at home they had no clue how x-wing would blow up.

They are not psychic just guys trying to design a fun game and like all humans they sometimes mess up, which is why they then work hard to fix it.

Compare X-Wing to Flames of War, or Warmachine and it's still far, far cheaper.

No card is actually required it is at best very useful, and no package they put cards in, has no value other than card. The raider without the Tie Advanced would still be a good deal at that price.

The Starviper is a good ship and very useful in S&V lists. That some people buy it purely for autothrusters is not a failing on FFG's part. Far better to have upgrades that are useful for more than one ship then just useful for that ship alone.

That method would make upgrades much, much less useful. Plus who actually thinks having to buy 4 more interceptors for the sake of a interceptor only upgrade is a good idea?

Plus who actually thinks having to buy 4 more interceptors for the sake of a interceptor only upgrade is a good idea?

Well, to be fair if I want to fly five Alpha Squadron pilots...

Why are people comparing xwing to 40k as if that should make everyone feel better? 40k is an overly expensive bore of a game that isn't even balanced properly.

Just because FFG isn't ripping of its customer base nearly as bad as GW doesn't justify a thing.

This is a great game. But the business model of how they release upgrades is an utter joke that no one can defend.

Even at a marked up price they need to sell cards individually.

And proxy is a bogus fix. Nobody wants to proxy cards just to play a competent Vader. Mine as well just proxy everything and start 3d printing ships.

Releasing a small ship upgrade fix card in a huge ship is such a screw to the customer base. We bought the product already and it's not the customere fault that FFG failed to properly play test and design a ship that is balanced enough to play as is.

They dropped the ball at the design stage and the customer shouldn't have to clean up the mess.

Right. Give me a minute while I dig up the post I made in another one of these threads. Short version, though? The alternatives aren't actually much cheaper.

EDIT: The post I made isn't as relevant as I thought. Suffice it to say, though, that the alternative to card-based upgrades would mean periodically releasing new rulebooks, and that'd get expensive for players, fast.

Something we all tend to forget is that we are not entitled to this game. It is FFg's creation, and they will choose to design and market it however they see fit. We have no "right" to reasonable prices, balanced mechanics, ideal card/ship packaging combinations, or any other feature. By definition, we cannot be screwed by the game designers, as it is not our game- it's theirs. The only right we have is the right to vote with our wallet. If someone dislikes any of FFG's game decisions badly enough, they can choose to not to purchase some or all of the game. However, the massive success of X-wing in such a short time would suggest that many like how FFG is doing things.

Something we all tend to forget is that we are not entitled to this game. It is FFg's creation, and they will choose to design and market it however they see fit. We have no "right" to reasonable prices, balanced mechanics, ideal card/ship packaging combinations, or any other feature. By definition, we cannot be screwed by the game designers, as it is not our game- it's theirs. The only right we have is the right to vote with our wallet. If someone dislikes any of FFG's game decisions badly enough, they can choose to not to purchase some or all of the game. However, the massive success of X-wing in such a short time would suggest that many like how FFG is doing things.

Are we allowed to give our opinion in the forums? Or only the voting with the wallet part?

What sorry society is this where a man's voice is only as much worth as is his wallet.

"Games Workshop is worse" is a totally void red herring argument.

Well, to be fair if I want to fly five Alpha Squadron pilots...

Then I'd question your sanity.

I believe that you should expect to have to buy the toys you (generic you, not you Gecko) want to play with. If that card is really that important to you, then you should be willing to pay for it. But just because you don't want the model it comes with, doesn't mean you get to dismiss the cost of producing of that model.

Myself I don't want to spend a ton on S&V ships, so I'm missing out on a number of great upgrades. I say that because I'm putting my money where my mouth is as it were. So now when I build a list I just accept that there's some upgrades I won't have access to. That is not a failing in the system, it just means I have different options.

What sorry society is this where a man's voice is only as much worth as is his wallet.

Feel free to express your opinion, but you better be willing to allow someone else to do the same. Also it's not a question of someone only being worth as much as is in their wallet, but rather that money talks and BS walks....

You can complain all you want here, but as long as FFG is seeing ships being sold at a rate they want they have no real reason to change what their doing.

"Games Workshop is worse" is a totally void red herring argument.

No it's not. It's a completely legitimate comparison to what else is out there. I'll agree, that being better then GW is not that lofty of a goal, and if that's the only good thing I can say then I'm not saying much.

But there is nothing wrong with comparing prices to other similar products, and it's not like GW is the only company out there that FFG is better than.

Not going to happen. Nor, should it.

They have done something a bit similar, to their old LCGs (AGOT and CoC). The first packs were not as consumer friendly as they are now, with everything in triplicate. They shifted to the new format a couple of years into each game's life. And they intended to reprint the old cycles in the new format. This resulted in a couple of problems. First, a lot of angry players about having to buy multiple of the old packs, kind of getting screwed. Sort of how there were many, many AS B-wing players who were upset when Advanced Sensors was revealed to be in the E-wing pack. Second, and this is the most important one, is that they waited for stock of the old packs to practically dry up before they did a reprint. This was a major issue with one cycle, because there were 2 packs that people needed multiples of, but not so many of the others. So, it was a long, long time before those key cards were reprinted in the new, friendlier format.

Now, I'm not sure how many of you joined the game after the production issues were solved. Needless to say, that stock isn't so much of an issue anymore. Which means there are a LOT of ships out there. So, you would have to wait till the stock of a certain ship had already dried up, being near impossible to find. And I can assure you, the levels they would wait for would be much, much lower than their current reorder level. So, you essentially take a ship out of circulation for at least 6 months. Just because you don't want to buy some other ship. Let's not return to the era of ship shortages.

I fail to see where FFG is getting anything out of this deal, outside some small good will out of a tiny percentage of the playerbase. They are our drug dealer. It is in their best interest to keep us buying new product.

If you can't compare prices to GW what are you supposed to compare them to consoles? diamond necklaces? crayons and paper?

Well, to be fair if I want to fly five Alpha Squadron pilots...

Then I'd question your sanity.

I believe that you should expect to have to buy the toys you (generic you, not you Gecko) want to play with. If that card is really that important to you, then you should be willing to pay for it. But just because you don't want the model it comes with, doesn't mean you get to dismiss the cost of producing of that model.

Hey, stop picking on that poor Alpha Squadron Pilot.

5 Alphas Squadron Pilots with Autothrusters is a fun list.

If you can't compare prices to GW what are you supposed to compare them to consoles? diamond necklaces? crayons and paper?

A football, an open field and fresh air.

It is in their best interest to keep us buying new product.

Agreed and as I pointed out. Would having to buy 4 more Interceptors so you had 8 of them be better way at getting Autothruster than buying 2 Starvipers? I can't use 8 interceptors other than maybe in Epic, and I'd still have 4 of them without autothrusters. That effectively means I have 4 models that are completely worthless.

If you can't compare prices to GW what are you supposed to compare them to consoles?

Well there was one guy who felt we should only consider the cost of raw materials... Which is of course moronic... But it was suggested at one point.

5 Alphas Squadron Pilots with Autothrusters is a fun list.

I may have to see if I can get someone to loan/proxy a 5th one and try that list sometime. It does sound like fun.

"Games Workshop is worse" is a totally void red herring argument.

No it's not. It's a completely legitimate comparison to what else is out there. I'll agree, that being better then GW is not that lofty of a goal, and if that's the only good thing I can say then I'm not saying much.But there is nothing wrong with comparing prices to other similar products, and it's not like GW is the only company out there that FFG is better than.

The point is quite simple: the sales model with the upgrade cards is not very customer friendly. I wouldn't call it totally crap or scream injustice or anything, but things like the 'integrated astromech upgrade' are just an annoyance; the casual player buys more redundant cardboard, the tournament player (or any player that does not use proxies - apparently they exist, and they probably have trouble sitting down) gets just one upgrade card where (s)he probably needs several.

And the response to the above?

"GW is worse."

Well, I totally grant you that, thanks for the insight, you are completely correct. GW is worse, grass is green, the moon is not made of cheese, any more relevant facts can be added at leisure.

FFG has gone on record saying that selling card-only expansions is not going to happen- The general consensus is that it isn't financially viable for them.

As far as updating products with new cards, while we can debate whether or not FFG should do such a thing, that's mostly an academic argument, as such an update would almost certainly go through the Mouse, and I doubt it'd sell well with Disney's pack of merchandising piranhas.

As for the raider containing the Tie Advanced fix... Right, I've gone over this before, but here's my logic as to why they did it.

1) FFG wants huge ships to contain cards relevant to the regular game.

Evidence: Every huge ship has contained at least a few cards that can be used outside of Epic.

2) FFG feels that releasing the CR-90 without a small base ship was a bad idea

Evidence: No other huge ship since has been released without a small base ship since then. Also, from my perception, the Raider has sold at least as many copies as the CR-90 has in my metagame in a fraction of the time.

Ergo, the Raider must come with a small based ship.

Now, as to the choice of the small base ship; The fluff for the raider is a patrol vessel that does not carry it's own fighter escort. Therefore, the ship must have a hyperdrive. Therefore, the Tie Bomber, Tie Fighter, and Tie Interceptor are not going to work.

That leaves us with the Tie Advanced, Tie Phantom, and Tie Defender. The Phantom is by far the least iconic, and therefore the least likely to drive sales. It also didn't really need help one way or another with the decloak change in playtesting. That leaves the Tie Advanced and Tie Defender. Both ships are in need of a fix, so logically the Raider should come with one. Of the two, the Advanced has "Appeared in a Movie" cred. Not a hard choice.

"Games Workshop is worse" is a totally void red herring argument.

No it's not. It's a completely legitimate comparison to what else is out there. I'll agree, that being better then GW is not that lofty of a goal, and if that's the only good thing I can say then I'm not saying much.But there is nothing wrong with comparing prices to other similar products, and it's not like GW is the only company out there that FFG is better than.

Being locked in a lead chest at the bottom of the ocean is also worse and can in that sense be compared to buying X-Wing stuff, but that doesn't make it a meaningful argument. You're just not saying anything by coming up with 40k and how GW treats/has treated its customers. Nobody is arguing that FFG has hit rock bottom in customer friendliness. Sure, we can all think of something worse. So what?

The point is quite simple: the sales model with the upgrade cards is not very customer friendly. I wouldn't call it totally crap or scream injustice or anything, but things like the 'integrated astromech upgrade' are just an annoyance; the casual player buys more redundant cardboard, the tournament player (or any player that does not use proxies - apparently they exist, and they probably have trouble sitting down) gets just one upgrade card where (s)he probably needs several.

And the response to the above?

"GW is worse."

Well, I totally grant you that, thanks for the insight, you are completely correct. GW is worse, grass is green, the moon is not made of cheese, any more relevant facts can be added at leisure.

Huh, that post did turn out to be relevant. So, reposting here. TL;DR? Rulebooks don't end up being much cheaper for anyone except the superfans who buy almost everything

I don't feel the GW comparison works. Warhammer Fantasy and 40k have many more factions, so the new rules for each faction could be spread out over a few years (Ideally the game stays fresh for players in between releases for their faction because new releases for other factions force you to change the way you play). In order for X-wing to keep up a similar release schedule (Which FFG seems to want to do), they'd have to frequently release new rules for each faction. I see two ways they could do this;

1) Each wave is accompanied by a $25 rulebook with rules and fluff for the new ships as well as rules for new upgrades that existing ships can use. Aces packs would be rolled into waves.
2) Each year, FFG releases a new edition of the rules (Estimated rulebook price $60). Obviously, this makes last year's book obselete.

Option 1) would, as it stands, mean you needed $75 in rulebooks to play the most popular build of Soontir Fel (book II for Fel and Stealth Device, book IV for Royal Guard Tie, book VI for Autothrusters). Large ships that draw from even more waves would be worse off. Option 2) means we'd be on X-wing 3.0 and most of the people here would have 1-2 obselete rulebooks sitting around collecting dust.

So, both options mean staying competitive requires a significant investment (This is true of any game that is continually updated unless rules updates are free*). As it stands, a player who wants to play Soontir Fel competitively can do so, but has 2 more interceptors, a Starviper, and a Firespray or Scyk (Add in most Wanted, and they've got a small Scum fleet. Which I'm pretty sure is FFG's plan). With option 1, the player has 3 rulebooks with upgrades in them, the relative value of which is dependent on how many different ships they have (more ships= more use for different options). With option 2, a long term player has two expensive paperweights. I personally prefer FFG's current strategy. And it's not like the factions are so radically different you can't enjoy playing a different one, is it?


*While Age of Sigmar is currently using free PDFs to update old armies, I find it unlikely FFG could use a similar strategy to release upgrades for X-wing simply because FFG has an extra cost to cover licensing fees to Disney in addition to the cost of designing new rules.

Whoops, double post

The point is quite simple: the sales model with the upgrade cards is not very customer friendly.

So? I'll be one of the first to agree that things like the Advance fix in the Raider isn't the most customer friendly thing. Because customer friendly isn't the only or even best metric to use. A company can do something that is very customer friendly and go out of business because they aren't making any money.

Is FFG taking advantage of anyone? No, they're not ripping us off or gouging us. They're offering a product and we can buy it or not. A product that is sold at a very reasonable price yet is still making FFG a fair profit.

Is the Tie Advanced fix in the Raider done to sell more Raiders? Undoubtedly. Is this a problem? No not really. Sure they could of done it some other way, but that might also mean that it would be next year before we'd see that fix.