I still think rebooting old product is fine. Tie Interceptor expansion reprinted with a useful Fel's Wrath rather than the trash he is now. Why do they keep reprinting broken game elements, it makes absolutely no sense. I have 5 tie interceptors, I would buy a sixth to get a fixed Fel's Wrath and repaint it to be a Royal Guard Interceptor. Same for Imperial Aces, same for the tie advanced. Paper and ink are cheap, so maybe they should consider reprinting elements people don't use, like crappy upgrades and some pilots...

I still think rebooting old product is fine. Tie Interceptor expansion reprinted with a useful Fel's Wrath rather than the trash he is now.

Eh. No.

While I agree every ship in the game should be viable and useful, I don't think every pilot and every single upgrade has to.

Why change Fel's Wrath and, in the process, invalidate the old card, when you can just make up a new Interceptor pilot instead?

EDIT: That got away from me. TL;DR? Price of Malifaux < Price of X-wing < Price of Warmahordes. Buying somethings in addition to just one list normal for wargames. FFG encouraging cross faction purchases is unusual, but on the other hand, if you rigorously stick to one faction X-wing might beat out Malifaux at least in the US.

Regarding the price of entry: X-wing's main competitors are Warmahordes and Warhammer: 40000. Competitive 40k armies end up being at least half a grand if you're really savvy in shopping. Competitive Warmahordes builds run around $200-$250 as I gather for a 35 point army (Whether your meta prefers 35 or 50 points varies). Malifaux, with a reputation as being one of the cheapest wargames out there, comes out to ~150 USD, depending on how many models you end up needing to get your crew to a competitive level (This may have changed a bit, as the source I'm drawing from is 9 months old. Also it's in British Pounds, so it's possible the actual MSRP here in the US is different from the Pounds-USD exchange rate).

How does x-wing compare?

Let me do a quick price check on the Spanish nationals results

1st and 2nd place- 2 K-wings, 2 Most Wanted, 2 Y-wings: $150 MSPR+Core Set.

4th Place- Most Wanted, Hound's Tooth, HWK-290, Rebel Aces, Millenium Falcon, K-wing: $175+Core set.

4th Place- Yt-2400, Rebel Aces, 2 Z-95, A-wing: $105+Core Set

Just to add it to the disussion, the most common Soontir+RAC build: Decimator+Tie Interceptor+Slave 1+Lambda Shuttle+Tie Defender+Millenium Falcon+Imperial Aces+Starviper: $210. Optionally, replace the Falcon with the Hound's Tooth and the Defender with the Kihraxz to condense it to two factions.

Now, it's true you've bought ships you aren't running in your tournament list. The thing is... That usually happens with other wargames too. Whether it's due to a metagame shift, a model you thought you'd like but it turned out you didn't, or just a desire to be able to run a multitude of lists, pretty much all wargames encourage you to collect more than just what you need for that one list. So, I'd say X-wing is a bit more expensive than Malifaux (although you don't have to factor in the cost of paints, clippers, and brushes, which can add up quickly), but less expensive than warmahordes apart from a few outliers. 40k can go sit over in the corner in shame.

Admittedly, X-wing and Armada are unusual compared to Warmahordes and Malifaux in that the former take many more steps to encourage you to collect multiple factions, and that rubs a lot of players the wrong way. It's unusual, I'll admit. But on the other hand, you can have a decent imperial and rebel collection for the price of a 50 point Warmachine/Hordes army, so it doesn't seem like that big of a deal. And if you are rigidly opposed to buying any model of a different faction, there are still some competitive builds open to you. And you'd probably end up spending less than you would on even Malifaux.

Now, the increasing complexity is a different issue, but that's best handled in a separate thread as it has nothing to do with the topic at hand. I'm not trying to silence you there- Seriously, go ahead and make a thread about complexity creep. If you don't, I might sometime, because it'd be a genuinely interesting conversation. But we've already creep ed a considerable distance from the original topic.

-----------------------------

As far as rebooting old product by actually changing old cards goes, you've got two pretty big problems with that. 1) Any product of that type your distributors still have in stock is now obsolete, which costs them money, and upsets them (Upset distributors might take steps to encourage their buyers to buy your competitor's game over yours). 2) People who bought the previous version of the product have to buy the new version.

Adding additional cards that exist elsewhere during reprint runs (The OP's suggestion) is significantly different, and more feasible. You still end up with the old stock being worth less, but what is in it is still usable so it can be clearanced at least, and existing players aren't getting the short end of the stick. And as long as it's limited to the worst cases like Tie Advanced /x1, Integrated Astromech, Autothrusters, and Chardan Refit, you'd still keep the circular purchasing pattern FFG's business model for X-wing relies on.

So I'd guess I'd say I've changed my stance a little. Your idea is a pretty good compromise solution, TylerT, although I'm skeptical as to whether it would be able to go through everyone it needed to. Still, no harm in suggesting it. So... Uh, e-mail FFG with the suggestion?

Actually, that brings me to another question. Does FFG actually have a suggestion box?

I still think rebooting old product is fine. Tie Interceptor expansion reprinted with a useful Fel's Wrath rather than the trash he is now.

Eh. No.

While I agree every ship in the game should be viable and useful, I don't think every pilot and every single upgrade has to.

Why change Fel's Wrath and, in the process, invalidate the old card, when you can just make up a new Interceptor pilot instead?

Because it is a horrible business practice to continue pumping out a product with a known problem, especially when that problem is as easily fixed as printing a new card Package it in the new paint job interceptor, reboot the old product, I really don't care how they do it. It doesn't endear FFG to me at all that they know some cards will never be used yet they continue to print them out, don't give me that TCG crap. Gasp! What a brilliant idea, they could even make another pilot for the interceptors at the same time!

Unless you don't like getting your fully moneys worth‽‽

Now, it's true you've bought ships you aren't running in your tournament list.

But this isn't the key issue. The issue is that X-wing pushes you to buy ships you NEVER run, in any list, ever - just to get the cards. All miniatures games will have some decision to make on how broad you go - do you play just one list? Or do you have variety? Variety for competitive events, or just for fun? Those things are the same no matter what.

The difference arises in that you have to buy ships that you might NEVER play, effectively forcing you to play all factions, or end up with extra useless ships. Imperial player wants Engine Boost? Too bad. Rebel Stealth Device? Nooooope. B-wings with Manglers? So sad for you rebel scum! Want to run a 4B with Advanced Sensors list? Well, pre E-wing, you were going to buy 4 shuttles, too.

EDIT: That got away from me. TL;DR? Price of Malifaux < Price of X-wing < Price of Warmahordes. Buying somethings in addition to just one list normal for wargames. FFG encouraging cross faction purchases is unusual, but on the other hand, if you rigorously stick to one faction X-wing might beat out Malifaux at least in the US.

FFG doesn't encourage cross faction purchase - they MANDATE it.

But even given this (which I think is broadly correct) it misses a few major problems. The first is the above-mentioned useless purchases. Even if the overall cost is comparable or lower, when half of what you buy are models you don't actually want, it feels like a ripoff. Second is the perceived value - your DeciFel list comes out at $210... for TWO ships. How many models in a comparably priced (or even more expensive) Warmahordes army? 20? 30? The actual models in the DeciFel list are $55, the other $160 or so is from purchases that you make JUST TO GET THE CARDS.

And that's the problem that the sales model is starting to run into. Whether it's accurate or not, people place most of the value on the ship model itself. Making people buy ships they don't want to get cards they do is going to continue to rub people the wrong way, and it's only going to get worse as we get more and more ships.

-There is zero reason they can't sell upgrade cards in a pack at a marked up price. Everyone knows how high margins are for card packs. It would be a smart business move. But they use upgrade cards as leverage to sell ships that are obviously not enticing enough to be worth the purchase alone.

This is blatantly false. A very basic understanding of business and/or manufacturing can easily see this. Now, whether you agree with those reasons or not, that's another matter. And, ultimately pointless. As FFG has said that card packs are not in the cards, because of their analysis has shown them to not be a viable product.

We better let Magic the Gathering know that selling card packs is impossible to make money off of.. If you buy that nonesense from ffg, I have a bridge I'd love to sell you.

So, after taking license fees and loss of revenue from the drop in sale of the expansions containing valuable cards, how much do you think those upgrade packs would have to cost?

Maybe they should follow magic in making random card packs so theres a chance wwe don't get ANYTHING we want in them......

Genius

Urgh no random packs I hated that about heroclix and mechwarrior dark age, and buying specific figures is always expensive by comparison.

With x-wing I know what I'm getting so I can plan what I need and not end up with extra crap dumped in a box.

I don't begrudge a company making money as long as I get value for money and compared to other games systems I feel I do.

I spend maybe £150 a year on x-wing by buying for three factions that leaves me plenty of money for other games, while I played 40k I'd spend that in a quarter on models paint and glue if not more.

Because it is a horrible business practice to continue pumping out a product with a known problem, especially when that problem is as easily fixed as printing a new card

And that new card could just be a new pilot. There's no reason to make the old card completely worthless by changing it.

Just because you can't find any use for it's ability currently doesn't mean there won't ever be one.

Yeah, random **** is just the worst.

Any game I've ever played with randomized product I've collected entirely through eBay.

Because it is a horrible business practice to continue pumping out a product with a known problem, especially when that problem is as easily fixed as printing a new card

And that new card could just be a new pilot. There's no reason to make the old card completely worthless by changing it.

Just because you can't find any use for it's ability currently doesn't mean there won't ever be one.

...

I agree some cards could have future use as the meta changes, I can't see the future of x-wing so it could happen. However, when nobody is using the current card competitively do we ignore that? Rare casual showings? Fel's Wrath and Lt. Lorrir essentially are worthless, they will always be passed up for better pilots. FFG dropped the ball and it would take a very specific fix that buffs them and not the better pilots. The way I view it is I payed $15 to get only 5/6 of the claimed gaming value. Yes, I want him fixed.

The way I view it is I payed $15 to get only 5/6 of the claimed gaming value.

That's actually a pretty high proportion for most X-wing releases.

Sorry, I meant to say each type of upgrade slot except for elite upgrades; the original post got eaten. As for why a few ships don't have elite upgrades, I don't know why that's the exception to the rule. I suppose FFG could have reprinted autothrusters instead of deadeye. I'll concede that's rather annoying if you're hurting for autothrusters, although deadeye being in the expansion does make pretty clear sense given that every single upgrade in the pack is centered around being a better ordnance carrier.

Think about Deadeye on the TIE Adv. Prototype for a minute. This is a ship that get a free Evade action whenever it takes a Target Lock action, but they've included a card that allows it to use Focus tokens instead of Target Locks???? To me it makes no sense whatsoever. There are better places for them to get more copies of Deadeye into the game (pretty much any other ship!) and this was a really good opportunity to get another copy of Auto-thrusters into the game. Unless there is something un-revealed that specifically works brilliantly with Deadeye then it's a bizarre choice.

But this isn't the key issue. The issue is that X-wing pushes you to buy ships you NEVER run, in any list, ever - just to get the cards. All miniatures games will have some decision to make on how broad you go - do you play just one list? Or do you have variety? Variety for competitive events, or just for fun? Those things are the same no matter what.

The difference arises in that you have to buy ships that you might NEVER play, effectively forcing you to play all factions, or end up with extra useless ships. Imperial player wants Engine Boost? Too bad. Rebel Stealth Device? Nooooope. B-wings with Manglers? So sad for you rebel scum! Want to run a 4B with Advanced Sensors list? Well, pre E-wing, you were going to buy 4 shuttles, too.

FFG doesn't encourage cross faction purchase - they MANDATE it.

But even given this (which I think is broadly correct) it misses a few major problems. The first is the above-mentioned useless purchases. Even if the overall cost is comparable or lower, when half of what you buy are models you don't actually want, it feels like a ripoff. Second is the perceived value - your DeciFel list comes out at $210... for TWO ships. How many models in a comparably priced (or even more expensive) Warmahordes army? 20? 30? The actual models in the DeciFel list are $55, the other $160 or so is from purchases that you make JUST TO GET THE CARDS.

And that's the problem that the sales model is starting to run into. Whether it's accurate or not, people place most of the value on the ship model itself. Making people buy ships they don't want to get cards they do is going to continue to rub people the wrong way, and it's only going to get worse as we get more and more ships.

^^ This. I didn't use to bemoan the release model of X-Wing, but over time it is just getting worse and worse due to the volume of ships, cards and fixes. When there are only 4 waves, it's a great release model and no one has a problem with it. But when we're up to 8 waves and 3 factions and some of those ships are only effective with fixes found in other ships, or bundled with expensive huge ships, then that puts up a barrier to entry for new players. Note the important bit is "new players". For us veterans, it isn't an issue. We have everything already and have just a small outlay each year to "keep up". But think about starting X-Wing from scratch... it's a big initial outlay and a lot of that outlay might well be on ships you never intend to use as you just want the fix or a specific card. No matter how cheap the ships are in comparison to other games, it will still annoy the customers and it will still put off new players. This issue will only get worse if the current model remains in place.

If I was looking at starting X-Wing now then honestly I don't think I would bother. Those who defend FFG vigorously, just stop for a minute and think about how it looks for someone starting out. Look at the example above where you're paying $160 for just cards and really think about whether X-Wing is still an inviting and cheap game for new players.

As for the idea of replacing an expansion with another identical expansion that then adds in fix cards etc. or reprinting broken pilots (Fel's Wrath!) with new abilities, I think that's a bad idea for existing players. How would I get my new Fel's Wrath card? I have six Interceptors already and don't want to purchase a seventh just for a single reprinted pilot card. And if the old X-Wing expansion was replaced with a new one that contained Integrated Astromech, that still leaves me with no Integrated Astromechs for my existing X-Wings!

The only way I can see to solve the issue is to sell the cards on their own, or in card packs. I do not believe for one second that selling cards is not financially viable and I have not seen FFG state that anywhere. What Alex Davy has said is that they currently have no intention of selling just cards, but he didn't say it was due to it not being financially viable. It would reduce the number of ships sold. That's a definite yes, it would reduce ship sales. But would the additional profit made from the card sales offset this? That's the key. FFG doesn't appear to believe that it would, otherwise they'd be doing it now, but I think that there will come a time whereby the number of new players who decide not to ever buy in to X-Wing due to the release model (difficult to measure!) will means that selling cards becomes a necessity.

I think selling blister packs with card upgrades and ship fixes per faction would be a solution. They shouldnt make this too cheap though...

Someone starting out can if they so desire make a competitive list for under £100, that's cheaper than some systems like 40k and on par with others like warmahordes.

You can get most wanted for £20, two of those plus two y-wing's and a pair of k wings would cost £85.20 to make a tlt spam list that a new player could do fairly good with.

That's peanuts, to do the same with 40k would easily cost five times that and take months to build and paint it all.

A competitive list, but a competitive list they'd enjoy playing?

The designers (Alex now, Jay Little in past interviews) have been quite talkative when asked about different aspects of the game (I even remember Alex saying that the Assault Gunboat isn't discarded, is a fan favorite and could appear in a future wave!) When asked about fixes to ships or balance, they always leave open the possibility of revisiting the subject in the future, or being monitoring the situation. When asked about heavier cinematic and scenario support, they said that they were polling the community's interest for that.
However, when asked about certain particular subjects, like the unapproved content, the unspoiled content, or in particular the card only expansion, they have always being categorically negative or silent about it. So much that it contrast their usual verbosity or reasonability.

I keep thinking that were this game an original creation from FFG and not a Star Wars license, we would have had card only expansions, scenario expansions, accessories and scenery, you name it. They do that with many of their other games.

But it is not. It's a license, and one of the tightest ones. I doubt Alex Davy can go to pee without LFL having to give their approval in triplicate.

In many cases they have said that this or that were so because of LFL having to approve it, and I guess because some times it wasn't approved.

Probably FFG holds several independent licenses from LFL: one for a living card game (SWLCG), another for a living miniature game based on the small spaceships (X-wing), another for the big spaceships (Armada), another for a miniature game based on the characters (Imperial Assault), another for a role-play game (EotE, AoR, F&D). And each of these agreements detail in a really thorough way what they may or may not sell. If the "Miniature spaceships game" agreement says that they may sell miniatures packs accompained by tokens, accessories and cards linked to the miniature, then that is all what they are allowed to do.

If that hypothetical case, if FFG released a "card only pack", they might be breaking their deal. Even if it is not so, and it were covered by their other "Living Card Game" agreement, there is no guarantee that FFG will not lose that particular license in the future, jeopardizing all "card only packs" released for X-Wing before that point.

With so many toy companies fighting for the Star Wars license, I doubt FFG will break any of their deals or risk chaining one of their games to another, in case they lose the license for one of them, to keep the other isolated.

FFG wants everyone to buy every ship. They incentivize that (or reward it) by spreading useful upgrades across all the ships. In my opinion, the TIE Advanced "fix" was a happy bonus for getting a Raider. I never even bought a TIE Advanced before getting the Raider in fact. I also suspect they aren't nearly as hardcore competitive as some people, and don't plan specific upgrades to be dominant or "auto-include." It's also likely there is no one over-arching Meta to Rule Them All like the forums seem to portray. Given the length of the development cycle, they can't really predict with certainty where things will be competitively when a new wave gets released. Players create the meta, sometimes in ways the designers didn't anticipate, and when necessary the designers make things to nudge the game back in the direction they want.

They aren't forcing anybody to buy anything. Nothing is required to play the game, competitively or otherwise, besides the core set. Netlisting is a serious problem that limits diversity in competitive gaming and while the designers need to acknowledge it they should design to minimize it. I think they're trying but so far only reactively rather than proactively. And also like I said, there are players who will min-max far more thoroughly than the designers can so the game will always lag behind the netlists. If players don't like it, try to change it. Don't just wait for FFG to fix something. It'll be a long time coming and might not be perfect when it does come. And always keep in mind, as several people pointed out already, the licensing deal with Disney might be restricting the design space FFG can operate in. It might be as simple as them not being allowed to sell any cards without ships or ships with invented paint schemes.

If that hypothetical case, if FFG released a "card only pack", they might be breaking their deal. Even if it is not so, and it were covered by their other "Living Card Game" agreement, there is no guarantee that FFG will not lose that particular license in the future, jeopardizing all "card only packs" released for X-Wing before that point.

With so many toy companies fighting for the Star Wars license, I doubt FFG will break any of their deals or risk chaining one of their games to another, in case they lose the license for one of them, to keep the other isolated.

You know, that actually makes more sense than the financial one. Protecting an IP, particularly one as lucrative as Star Wars, requires LFL/Disney to be really aggressive and occasionally leads to some weird restrictions. Given that the Star Wars CCG was once in the hands of a different company than the one that held the rights for miniatures, they probably are separate licenses, and Disney needs to keep those licenses distinct in case they want to do that in the future.

Now if a player wants to fly a competitive Darth Vader they need to buy the tie advanced expansion and a $100 Raider. thats kind of terrible considering how important Darth Vader is to the license.

Are you sure?

TIE ADV xpak = $15 (retail)

X1 & ATC = $14-20 (ebay)

FALCON xpak (Engine Upgrade) = $30 (retail)

That's well below your projection for a competitive VADER. hugs.

Now if a player wants to fly a competitive Darth Vader they need to buy the tie advanced expansion and a $100 Raider. thats kind of terrible considering how important Darth Vader is to the license.

Are you sure?

TIE ADV xpak = $15 (retail)

X1 & ATC = $14-20 (ebay)

FALCON xpak (Engine Upgrade) = $30 (retail)

That's well below your projection for a competitive VADER. hugs.

Seriously???? You're saying the best way to buy brand new Fantasy Flight products is from ebay?

Now if a player wants to fly a competitive Darth Vader they need to buy the tie advanced expansion and a $100 Raider. thats kind of terrible considering how important Darth Vader is to the license.

Are you sure?

TIE ADV xpak = $15 (retail)

X1 & ATC = $14-20 (ebay)

FALCON xpak (Engine Upgrade) = $30 (retail)

That's well below your projection for a competitive VADER. hugs.

Seriously???? You're saying the best way to buy brand new Fantasy Flight products is from ebay?

Far from it. Best way is to get a RAIDER model with your upgrade cards. Obviously. My point is you simply do not have to buy a RAIDER if you don't want to... And every eBay'er that buys a RAIDER is supporting Fantasy Flight Games--whether you like it or not.

I've bought 4 RAIDERS and sold many of the cards on eBay. Nothing but "thanks!" from my customers... who enjoy the option. And I'm sure FFG loves me too.

FFG wants everyone to buy every ship. They incentivize that (or reward it) by spreading useful upgrades across all the ships. In my opinion, the TIE Advanced "fix" was a happy bonus for getting a Raider. I never even bought a TIE Advanced before getting the Raider in fact.

I guarantee that, even as sh*tty as they used to be, way more people owned Advanceds than will ever own a Raider.

FFG wants everyone to buy every ship. They incentivize that (or reward it) by spreading useful upgrades across all the ships. In my opinion, the TIE Advanced "fix" was a happy bonus for getting a Raider. I never even bought a TIE Advanced before getting the Raider in fact.

I guarantee that, even as sh*tty as they used to be, way more people owned Advanceds than will ever own a Raider.

If that hypothetical case, if FFG released a "card only pack", they might be breaking their deal.

All the more reason they should let you buy individual cards online.

FFG will lose money (infrastructure that doesn't currently exist; oversight committees) and consumer faith if they ever sell individual cards. Collectors/Scalpers (~20% buyer_base) are a vital part of the business (Pareto Principle). Some of this 20% buyer_base are also gamers and the rest are just run-of-the-mill Star Wars Scalpers (i.e. wts potf2 longsaber mip). Point is... You either go back to flying for fun, or you support the Gray Market and you get that sweet Upgrade. The Gray Market definitely supports FFG. And for pete's sake, support the Commission Painters/Modders (eBay)! You can get sweet painted minis from hardworking hands anywhere in the world. And we all know the commish kids are buying a lot of models. So in supporting the commish kids, you support FFG and get bling on you ywing. hugs.

It still comes down to what's viable. If the license allowed it, and it would be profitable, it would happen.

More knowledgeable people than you or I would have already looked into it and decided it is not viable. It's that simple. "Screwing the customer base" is no reasin in itself for any business decision. Licensing and profits are what keep this game going. Its that simple

Despite that there's little reason why the Tie Advanced fix couldn't just have been released within the form of say an Aces pack.