The prices would have to be high enough to cover not only shiping and handling, but also loss of any sales of expansions

No, it really doesn't. Because sales of expansions you didn't need is how they were screwing you.

Yes, it hurts your bottom line to stop screwing your customers. You'll excuse me if I lack sympathy for that.

A online store for cards is not really any different than a cards only expansion, something FFG has made clear they will not do.

And I don't really care that they've made it clear.

Just because a company says "We're not going to do the right thing." doesn't mean I'm going to stop telling them to do the right thing.

When FFG pays out money for an expensive license like the one for Star Wars, they need to make money off of it. Therefore, they must do what is absolutely in their best business interest in order to ensure they are able to afford to keep producing the game.

Just because something is the right thing for you doesn't mean its the right thing for them. I'd rather they keep doing what they're doing, which is providing a happy middle between "Give the customers everything they want" and "Milk the customers for every last drop of money that we can."

Alright, let's try this a slightly different way. Would you acknowledge FFG would lose money if they changed their distribution model?

Possibly. I think it's entirely possible that they would end up making more money if people could buy cards directly from them instead of doing it through eBay at ridiculous prices.

As it is now, there are people out there that would get their cards from FFG if they could do it without wasting a bunch of money on ships they don't want or eBay. Those people are currently NOT giving FFG money.

The question becomes, is the money FFG makes off people buying ships they don't want for cards more than they money they would make from people buying more cards from them directly.

I assume that they've run the numbers and determined that it's the former, given that that's the one they're doing.

If you think FFG is screwing you, you really, really, really need to rethink this hobby.

FFG is deliberately offering a product in an inconvenient and more expensive way, in order to increase their profit margin.That is screwing people.It's not a big screw over. We're not talking big pharma that charges hundreds of thousands of dollars for medicine or companies like Nestle with their truly despicable business practices.But let's not also pretend that FFG is doing everything they can to provide a service people want, in the way they want it.The conversations here always seem to go like this:"Oh man, it looks like someone stole my car!""Oh yeah, well you really need to stop complaining. Someone broke into my house. By comparison, your situation is nothing!"Yes, other companies do things wore than FFG. That doesn't mean that people don't have a legitimate reason to complain about how FFG bundles their cards and ships. It's ****, and people are allowed to complain about **** things.

If having your car stolen was optional......and considered a luxury........then yes, that maybe, almost close to what we are talking about.

At least i admitted that my analogy was ridiculous

Alright, let's try this a slightly different way. Would you acknowledge FFG would lose money if they changed their distribution model?

Possibly. I think it's entirely possible that they would end up making more money if people could buy cards directly from them instead of doing it through eBay at ridiculous prices.

Alright, here's your thesis. Let's go point by point.

As it is now, there are people out there that would get their cards from FFG if they could do it without wasting a bunch of money on ships they don't want or eBay. Those people are currently NOT giving FFG money.

Well, most of them are giving FFG less money than they might otherwise since most of the complainers do buy stuff, but I take your point. We can all agree there is a demand for individual cards. The question is, is satisfying that demand going to cost them money?

The question becomes, is the money FFG makes off people buying ships they don't want for cards more than they money they would make from people buying more cards from them.

Now, this forum is hardly a representative sample, but anecdotal evidence here seems to suggest most of the people who buy expansions buy them because they want the ships and the upgrades (Or just the ships in a number of the superfans case). It seems to me that FFG's business model is less, "Buy this or you can't play," and more, "Great, you bought our product. You know, if you bought this other product as well, you could use your new purchase in even more ways!" Still, we now have the question.

I assume that since the former is what they are doing, that they've run the numbers and determined that to be the case.

Uh, unless I'm misinterpreting your post, your conclusion here completely contradicts your initial statement. You seem to be admitting FFG has most likely researched this possibility and determined it will reduce profit. And, this being a licensed game, that's a no-go.

I prefer the analogy of being okay that somebody kicked you in the ****, because at least it wasn't that one guy that goes around shooting people in the ****.

GW, why you always gotta go around shootin' ****s?

I prefer the analogy of being okay that somebody kicked you in the ****, because at least it wasn't that one guy that goes around shooting people in the ****.

No, that analogy doesn't work. You didn't have to get kicked or shot. I'm pretty sure there are a few free rulesets for wargames floating around on the internet, so you have cost free alternatives. They may not be as enjoyable for you as x-wing, but that's because X-wing has significant amounts of time and money sunk into it. The people who did so can't continue to do so or even continue to provide the product they have if they don't make money.

This situation is more like not getting the Han Solo minifigure in a Lego kit of Luke's X-wing. What you really want to do may be to build a unique model with Han and Luke flying a two-seater x-wing, but that doesn't equate to bodily harm or theft. You may be frustrated because all your friends are doing it and making fun of you because you can't, but that's not Lego's fault (I'm aware this analogy is getting a little abstract what with comparing competing in tournaments with social isolation due to limited finances. Work with me, here).

Uh, unless I'm misinterpreting your post, your conclusion here completely contradicts your initial statement.

No, you're correct. It does.

I said it was POSSIBLE that doing it the other way could be more profitable for them. But I'm ASSUMING since they aren't doing it that way, that they've already determined that it wouldn't. Otherwise, they'd be doing that instead.

Okay. So, like I've said. Licensed game. Tyranical, bean-counting merchandising team at Disney. Significant Drop in revenue=No more x-wing, armada, star wars LCG, or Imperial Assault.

Or, FFG could offset the loss in profits by bumping the price of every ship in the game by a dollar or two. Meaning I'm paying more so you dont have to buy a raider

Alright, let's try this a slightly different way. Would you acknowledge FFG would lose money if they changed their distribution model? I certainly think it would since there would be less incentive to buy new ships (FFG's business model seems to rely on a circular buying pattern, so that's a huge problem)? Okay, now the executives at Disney see that their share of the profits from X-wing have dropped. When they inquire, what if they don't like the response (Prediction: They wouldn't, because Disney's merchandising team is ruthless)? FFG loses the license. FFG is out a huge amount of money, meaning cutbacks and people left without a job, while we don't get x-wing anymore and the license might go to someone who doesn't care about making a good game.

Unfortunately, given that FFG is privately held, I have no idea what their profit margin is or how to find out. Given that whether or not they are "screwing people" depends almost entirely that, I don't see how we can have much more in the way of a reasonable discussion, so this'll probably be my last post here.

There are a couple of things we know, and a couple of things we can infer.

Card packs are cheap. They are cheap to develop, and cheap to manufacture, cheap to ship and cheap to store. The profit margins on card packs are huge. You don't need expensive plastic moulding systems, CAD developers, sculpters, etc. Yes, there are still development costs but not in the same ball-park as miniature development.

Also, we know that despite them being cheap and having attractive profit margins, FFG won't release them.

Why not?

Because they'd lose money on other ships, where the only attractive part of those ships is the cards.

So they force people to pay more for those upgrades than they otherwise might. Now before the rabid FFG fanboys get their knickers in a twist, please read what I wrote. They are forced to pay MORE than they otherwise MIGHT. No one is forcing anyone to buy anything. But FFG is setting the effective minimum price at a comparatively high level because otherwise some of their products do not have enough legs to remain viable.

If having your car stolen was optional......and considered a luxury........then yes, that maybe, almost close to what we are talking about.

At least i admitted that my analogy was ridiculous

The analogy works because one person is finding themselves in an unpleasant situation. And other people are telling them it CAN'T be an unpleasant situation, or that they are MORONS for thinking it is unpleasant, because it could be so much worse. Regardless of how or why those people found themselves in those situations, those situations both suck. You can't tell people their situation doesn't suck because it could be worse. It still sucks regardless.

And I'm sad for you that I need to explain that to you.

I prefer the analogy of being okay that somebody kicked you in the ****, because at least it wasn't that one guy that goes around shooting people in the ****.

GW, why you always gotta go around shootin' ****s?

Well, most of them are giving FFG less money than they might otherwise since most of the complainers do buy stuff, but I take your point.

Well, I can only speak for myself here. But personally, I'd rather buy 3 copies of Autothrusters for $15 directly from FFG than by 1 copy of Autothrusters for $15 off of eBay.

Uh, unless I'm misinterpreting your post, your conclusion here completely contradicts your initial statement.

No, you're correct. It does.

I said it was POSSIBLE that doing it the other way could be more profitable for them. But I'm ASSUMING since they aren't doing it that way, that they've already determined that it wouldn't. Otherwise, they'd be doing that instead.

In your example of paying $15 to buy three copies of Autothrusters, or really any other card: you'd then have people nitpicking over the price of any given single card. After all, it can't cost that much to print. They also probably wouldn't be able to charge more for popular cards like Push the Limit and Autothrusters than they do for less popular cards like Proton Torpedoes and Elusiveness, because everything should cost the same to print and the popularity shouldn't matter.

You say that they're losing money out through eBay, but they're really not. Those eBay sellers had to buy the expansion packs in the first place in order to get the cards. That means FFG is getting their money from someone. They're just not getting it directly from you.

I understood your point. But mine still stands.

I also understand that a lot of people dont have large hobby budgets. But those people need to understand that their opinions are not the ones that marketing crews are going to take into consideration. The game designers and play testers may want an even playing field for everyone, but marketers aim at the people willing to spend more money

Poor business decisions could end up meaning no more x wing. For anyone

Alright, let's try this a slightly different way. Would you acknowledge FFG would lose money if they changed their distribution model? I certainly think it would since there would be less incentive to buy new ships (FFG's business model seems to rely on a circular buying pattern, so that's a huge problem)? Okay, now the executives at Disney see that their share of the profits from X-wing have dropped. When they inquire, what if they don't like the response (Prediction: They wouldn't, because Disney's merchandising team is ruthless)? FFG loses the license. FFG is out a huge amount of money, meaning cutbacks and people left without a job, while we don't get x-wing anymore and the license might go to someone who doesn't care about making a good game.

Given that Decipher lost the rights to Star Wars card games without, as far as I can tell, a drop in profits, I don't think saying that the people who hold the Star Wars licenses are expected to perform exceptionally well constitutes, "The Sky is Falling."

Unfortunately, given that FFG is privately held, I have no idea what their profit margin is or how to find out. Given that whether or not they are "screwing people" depends almost entirely that, I don't see how we can have much more in the way of a reasonable discussion, so this'll probably be my last post here.

There are a couple of things we know, and a couple of things we can infer.

Card packs are cheap. They are cheap to develop, and cheap to manufacture, cheap to ship and cheap to store. The profit margins on card packs are huge. You don't need expensive plastic moulding systems, CAD developers, sculpters, etc. Yes, there are still development costs but not in the same ball-park as miniature development.

Also, we know that despite them being cheap and having attractive profit margins, FFG won't release them.

Why not?

Because they'd lose money on other ships, where the only attractive part of those ships is the cards.

So they force people to pay more for those upgrades than they otherwise might. Now before the rabid FFG fanboys get their knickers in a twist, please read what I wrote. They are forced to pay MORE than they otherwise MIGHT. No one is forcing anyone to buy anything. But FFG is setting the effective minimum price at a comparatively high level because otherwise some of their products do not have enough legs to remain viable.

The profit margins on cards are huge due to volume (You may have heard grumbling from store owners that Wizards recently increased the price of Magic boosters, but didn't increase MSRP). Also, card games have the advantage of being able to ban things, and there are generally fewer moving parts. But even so, I will concede that if FFG would sell individual card packs, it might be cheaper for the consumer to run a number of tournament quality lists. But, you haven't addressed the licensed game concern apart from silly response images that ignored precedent (to be fair, said precedent isn't recent, so I don't begrudge you not knowing it).

At this point, the argument seems to have changed to "FFG is screwing us" vs, "If anyone is screwing you, it's Disney". Nothing seems to be changing anymore, so I'm out.

Ungh, another double post. REally wish I could delete these things.

With 3 factions in the game and now 2 subfactions I think FFG is going to need to change their model fairly soon. I got into the game because I could just collect one faction, my buddy the other and we could fight it out. With expansion came the need to buy 1 maybe 2 cross faction ships to get the goods wanted to fly optimally (we're both casuals or perhaps just a little too COMPETITIVE after seeing remarks below) and we were ok with that. The third faction, one that shares ships with other factions if you buy more, is pushing it. I'm feeling like I can't keep up with this game and the current release rate and I have all of 1 faction in multiples and half of 2 other factions in singles. I am a dedicated fan but they are going to need to

A) make it easier for dedicated players to keep up with the quickening release schedule

or

B) add as many new players as old players they are losing + more to keep the game growing and profits high enough to keep the license.

We are reaching decision point in the game...new players won't buy in because it's too big, old players don't stick around because they have "enough" and aren't getting any kickbacks.

I don't have the answer but I can see the problem and some solutions.

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CARDPACKS ARE EASY! on a side note. I would 100% be ok with non-randomized cardpacks with pilot cards and upgrade cards switching to the SAME SIZE AND PACKAGING as their card games to make the transition cheap if it meant I could actually get the cards I want. If the issue is that certain products are not selling unless you include "auto include" cards with them, maybe you need to look at that product for the next "fix".

I dont think the amount of players will be shrinking anytime soon.

Obviously i only speak for my area, but ffg is BOOMING right now. What with certain other companies alienating their players like never before. More people are leaving expensive systems to play X-wing/Armada/IA

Oh so your the guy who threatens to gun down tournament players if they don't let you take that forgotten action.

Raider is only $75 or so on Miniature Market and what-not! Haha.

this is an unrealistic logistical nightmare

Oh so your the guy who threatens to gun down tournament players if they don't let you take that forgotten action.

That being said, I have no idea what you mean by that term either, Rakky.

Regarding my repeated statements that I'd probably stop posting(In the unlikely event you care why I, random internet person #98576, am continuing to do so); I was expressing frustration with my perception that arguments had ceased to be constructive so I wouldn't reply unless I saw something new. Hobjebus's comment would make new sense of you didn't remember a thread from over a month ago, and I was curious what Rakky meant.

That's not how I remember it being used but I've been lurking more the last few months...I'll edit it out because THAT IS NOT WHAT I MEANT AT ALL.

I do expect my opponent to play to the rules of the game and I'll grant you a forgotten action and be congenial during our play but if I'm bothering to earmark 2-3 hours out of my busy weekend for a few games of xwing, then I'm also bringing a competitive build and looking for a W...for the empire of course. I would say "ruthless" casual but that also doesn't work even though I tend to work for the Empire, which is often seen as ruthless...competitive casual is a bit of an oxymoron... so I guess I'm just a casual (because I seldom play competitively) who MUCH prefers to play with and against competitive builds.

If for some reason I'm not, I'm still making my own goals/objectives... Tactical Casual doesn't work either... so what do you call a competitive player who doesn't always go to competitions but expects and gives that same level of play?

Oh so your the guy who threatens to gun down tournament players if they don't let you take that forgotten action.

In the wake of yet another school shooting, I must say I'm more than a little bothered by that jest...edited my post; hope you do as well.

When I saw the thread.

When I read the thread,

That's not how I remember it being used but I've been lurking more the last few months...I'll edit it out because THAT IS NOT WHAT I MEANT AT ALL.

I do expect my opponent to play to the rules of the game and I'll grant you a forgotten action and be congenial during our play but if I'm bothering to earmark 2-3 hours out of my busy weekend for a few games of xwing, then I'm also bringing a competitive build and looking for a W...for the empire of course. I would say "ruthless" casual but that also doesn't work even though I tend to work for the Empire, which is often seen as ruthless...competitive casual is a bit of an oxymoron... so I guess I'm just a casual (because I seldom play competitively) who MUCH prefers to play with and against competitive builds.

If for some reason I'm not, I'm still making my own goals/objectives... Tactical Casual doesn't work either... so what do you call a competitive player who doesn't always go to competitions but expects and gives that same level of play?

Competitive Casual is the term I've heard used before. "I want to win, but with my strategy and army," or, "I want to win, but just don't like tournaments," things like that?

Goodwill from players is nice, sure. But it doesn't necessarily pay the bills. Especially now. While they did renew the license, I am pretty certain that the value of it went way up, what with new movies announced and all.

Why are people comparing xwing to 40k as if that should make everyone feel better? 40k is an overly expensive bore of a game that isn't even balanced properly.

It is however the market leader when it comes to miniature war gaming so it's perfectly valid to compare them to each other.

You can make a tournament competitive list for x-wing under £100 you can't say the same for 40k your more likely looking at half a grand not to mention the time needed to build and paint the armies or get someone professional to do that on commission.

When you compare something it's usually to the market leader.

Just because FFG isn't ripping of its customer base nearly as bad as GW doesn't justify a thing.

You think FFG are ripping people off but most of us don't share that opinion because we've played far more expensive systems.

This is a great game. But the business model of how they release upgrades is an utter joke that no one can defend.

Nonsense while not perfect releasing upgrade cards in new ships is way better than having to wait years for a new army book like you do with GW.

You don't need the cards you want the cards, it's perfectly possible to make lists using alternatives.

People run interceptors with targeting computers and shield upgrade instead of autothrusters and still do well.

And proxy is a bogus fix. Nobody wants to proxy cards just to play a competent Vader. Mine as well just proxy everything and start 3d printing ships.

Again in your opinion but loads on these forums proxy in casual play trying upgrades as they are spoiled, heck every single person using vassel is proxying the ships and upgrades.

I was using ATC and the advanced title months before the raider finally arrived no one moaned in my group and i have never objected to anyone else trying upgrades.

Releasing a small ship upgrade fix card in a huge ship is such a screw to the customer base. We bought the product already and it's not the customere fault that FFG failed to properly play test and design a ship that is balanced enough to play as is.

How do you play test against stuff not only not released yet but not even conceived?

How do you possibly think of every combination your millions of customers are going to invent?

At least ffg is actively trying to make everything competitive that's a hell of alot more than some other companies do, would you prefer they left the advanced designed right at the start of the game useless?

They dropped the ball at the design stage and the customer shouldn't have to clean up the mess.

Different dev's from three years ago who were not designing a tournament game but something for mates to mess around with at home they had no clue how x-wing would blow up.

They are not psychic just guys trying to design a fun game and like all humans they sometimes mess up, which is why they then work hard to fix it.

-A market leader that is losing its costumer base faster then you can shake a stick at. In an unbalanced mess of a game that is over priced, not new player friendly and is losing players, not gaining them.

-This isn't GW and we aren't waiting for an army book. Once again, don't justify the bad practice of one company with an even worse practice from another. It's not my fault 40k players don't respect there money enough and choose to over pay for unbalanced toys.

-You do realize the TIE Advance was broken and over priced since the day it was released. Day 1 people knew it wasn't worth using outside of Vader. This isn't a matter of predicting the future releases. It's about a rushed product that wasn't tested enough by its designers. Just like the TIE bomber, Awing, Interceptor and Ywing.

-I support FFG through purchasing quite a few of their products. I'm well aware of the quality comany they are. Not to mention love the game of xwing and give them props for making such an incredible deep, rewarding and fun game. But that doesn't exclude them from making anti-consumer decisions. And no matter how you slice it, adding a fix for a small ship that has been crap since day 1 in a huge ship that costs 70+ is anti-consumer.

-There is zero reason they can't sell upgrade cards in a pack at a marked up price. Everyone knows how high margins are for card packs. It would be a smart business move. But they use upgrade cards as leverage to sell ships that are obviously not enticing enough to be worth the purchase alone.

Adding say 2 of each upgrade card that is released in each wave as a Wave X Card Pack would both be pro-consumer and make FFG plenty of money. There is zero reason to do so other then them using those cards as leverage for customers to buy products they don't want.

If people reviewed this situation in a vacuum instead of comparing to other companies that have ripped them off worse, people here would be singing a different tune.