I mean, we'd still probably be going to the wiki since fan-maintained stuff is generally better than what strapped-for-time web developers put out*, but that transparency would be nice. We should e-mail FFG customer service and ask that such a service be developed. Enough people ask for it, FFG would probably add it, since they've demonstrated they really don't care if we post images of things spoiled outside of their articles (unless the Mouse is breathing down their neck pre-Force Friday), so it wouldn't sacrifce revenue.

Honestly, I don't think anything needs to change on that front. Having the fan wiki being the go-to source works out fine.

I'm just saying, let's not give FFG credit for being customer friendly on that front when the fans are the ones that are making it customer friendly.

I mean, we'd still probably be going to the wiki since fan-maintained stuff is generally better than what strapped-for-time web developers put out*, but that transparency would be nice. We should e-mail FFG customer service and ask that such a service be developed. Enough people ask for it, FFG would probably add it, since they've demonstrated they really don't care if we post images of things spoiled outside of their articles (unless the Mouse is breathing down their neck pre-Force Friday), so it wouldn't sacrifce revenue.

Honestly, I don't think anything needs to change on that front. Having the fan wiki being the go-to source works out fine.

I'm just saying, let's not give FFG credit for being customer friendly on that front when the fans are the ones that are making it customer friendly.

Saying that something isn't customer-friendly and then saying the company doesn't need to change it isn't particularly constructive.

I mean, I see your perspective, but isn't that (probably) FFG's perspective on the situation as well? Why should we count it against FFG for crowdsourcing something?

I wish they'd release a new deck of pilot cards every year. Every year they update the cards to fix holes that new releases caused and release a deck for $10-20 depending on what is in it. Then the errata could shrink. You wouldn't have weird hacky ways of making old ships useful again, etc.

This is about new players and simplifying the gateway to the game.

As I said patching old product with new product is great. It updates our collections with products we are excited to buy.

Refreshing the single ship expansions would make the game easier for new players.

I think it's a waste to keep reprinting what essentially become broken products. As demand for old ships dies down I think a refresh will actually increase demand quite a bit.

I love this game and buy all of it because FFG so clearly cares about giving us a good product.

Except for the product droughts such a method recquires. We have already seen what FFG does when they do something a bit like this. AGOT had some vital packs pretty much out of print for at least half a year, because the needed to wait for the rest of the cycle, which wasn't exactly great, to get to much lower stock levels. I remember the first year of the game. Having the iconic ships of the game be difficult to find for quite a few people is not good for the game. Lets add in the issue with that once a fix is released, the number of people buying the old ships will stop, waiting for a reprint. Which slows down the whole process. So, in the end, you will be in almost EXACTLY SAME situation as we are now. Only, with bringing back ship shortages.

This is about new players and simplifying the gateway to the game.

As I said patching old product with new product is great. It updates our collections with products we are excited to buy.

Refreshing the single ship expansions would make the game easier for new players.

I think it's a waste to keep reprinting what essentially become broken products. As demand for old ships dies down I think a refresh will actually increase demand quite a bit.

I love this game and buy all of it because FFG so clearly cares about giving us a good product.

This is a more legitimate argument, but the problem is us arguing about it is academic because it would have to go through the Mouse (I think FFG can get away with errata'ing upgrades, but changing a product's contents would definitely require an OK from Disney), and the mouse just cares about money.

It's the same argument i made in the OP just stated more clearly.

I think refreshing the line is better for making money then reprinting the line. A more approachable product can easily draw more customers.

Another thing refreshing does is it keeps the total number of products lower making the game easier for stores to stock.

Other than the costs of having to retool the line and assembly process. And the possibly of increased shipping. Insignificant costs, I'm sure/sarcasm.

Any game with expansions gets to be a bit daunting after a year or constant expansions. I am failing to see why X-wing is a special circumstances. FFG's distribution method isn't perfect, sure. But, among the available options, its the best we have.

Other than the costs of having to retool the line and assembly process. And the possibly of increased shipping. Insignificant costs, I'm sure/sarcasm.

Any game with expansions gets to be a bit daunting after a year or constant expansions. I am failing to see why X-wing is a special circumstances. FFG's distribution method isn't perfect, sure. But, among the available options, its the best we have.

No need to be snide; A lot of people are unaware just how many different expenses are involved in changing a product.

Saying that something isn't customer-friendly and then saying the company doesn't need to change it isn't particularly constructive.

Well, I just don't think it's relevant.

FFGs not having it's own wiki is not the customer-unfriendly issue that I think matters. The upgrade card attainment model is the one that matters to me.

Saying that something isn't customer-friendly and then saying the company doesn't need to change it isn't particularly constructive.

Well, I just don't think it's relevant.

FFGs not having it's own wiki is not the customer-unfriendly issue that I think matters. The upgrade card attainment model is the one that matters to me.

Okay. I'm confused as to why you brought it up, then, but I'll drop it. So, do you have a decent alternative to the previously suggested methods?

Okay. I'm confused as to why you brought it up, then, but I'll drop it. So, do you have a decent alternative to the previously suggested methods?

Personally, I think an online store where people can order whatever upgrade cards they need would be the best. One where the prices are high enough for it to make it worthwhile for them to ship out cards, but not as high as the ridiculously gougey eBay prices we have now.

As a potential compromise to the issue; as some do seem to have an issue with having to buy expansions that they don't really want to get the cards they need; how about championship or tournament prizes that collect ship load outs from the established meta. A selection of the well known and used combinations on offer as a winners circle prize that encourages new players to take part in tournaments for the chance of getting a Soontir, Vader, or Corran ace pack with all ancillary upgrade cards. Ships are often offered as top three prizes in many store level leagues and tournaments. Another untapped product for FFG to sell to the game stores that also encourages players to join in and play.

You have a good point there. FFG's site could stand to be a lot more informative about the contents of X-wing and Armada Expansions (You usually have at least a few upgrades unspoiled from the articles). And, unless I'm missing FFG's equivalent of M:TG's Gatherer, the LCGs are actually a lot worse off than we are.

I mean, we'd still probably be going to the wiki since fan-maintained stuff is generally better than what strapped-for-time web developers put out*, but that transparency would be nice. We should e-mail FFG customer service and ask that such a service be developed. Enough people ask for it, FFG would probably add it, since they've demonstrated they really don't care if we post images of things spoiled outside of their articles (unless the Mouse is breathing down their neck pre-Force Friday), so it wouldn't sacrifce revenue.

*See the difference between Gatherer, which has had comments and ratings broken for over a year, and Magiccards.info, which is not broken and includes every printing of a card instead of just the ones in booster packs and certain deck releases.

FFG actually has Cardgamedb.com for LCGs. And last I checked, they have those qr codes for those with smartphones to scan and see what is in an LCG pack. It is curious that they don't do that with with X-wing.

One where the prices are high enough for it to make it worthwhile for them to ship out cards, but not as high as the ridiculously gougey eBay prices we have now.

A online store for cards is not really any different than a cards only expansion, something FFG has made clear they will not do.

The prices would have to be high enough to cover not only shiping and handling, but also loss of any sales of expansions

No, it really doesn't. Because sales of expansions you didn't need is how they were screwing you.

Yes, it hurts your bottom line to stop screwing your customers. You'll excuse me if I lack sympathy for that.

And I don't really care that they've made it clear.

Just because a company says "We're not going to do the right thing." doesn't mean I'm going to stop telling them to do the right thing.

You'll excuse me if I lack sympathy for that.

your complete and utter lack of understanding of even the most basic principles involved here means there's no point in even talking to you.

If you think you're being screwed over by FFG then stop buying their stuff. Oh and don't play any other game, because anything beyond board games at target are also going to be screwing you over.

And on that note I'm done with this thread... I was hoping for a reasonable discussion but instead it's just more mindless blather from the 'FFG is evil' crowd.

What if ffg was to release an annual "tournament pack" (i knowim barrowing the term from yugioh) they could do say the t4 from worlds all ships and upgrades from those lists

The prices would have to be high enough to cover not only shiping and handling, but also loss of any sales of expansions

No, it really doesn't. Because sales of expansions you didn't need is how they were screwing you.

Yes, it hurts your bottom line to stop screwing your customers. You'll excuse me if I lack sympathy for that.

A online store for cards is not really any different than a cards only expansion, something FFG has made clear they will not do.

And I don't really care that they've made it clear.

Just because a company says "We're not going to do the right thing." doesn't mean I'm going to stop telling them to do the right thing.

If you think FFG is screwing you, you really, really, really need to rethink this hobby.

Okay. I'm confused as to why you brought it up, then, but I'll drop it. So, do you have a decent alternative to the previously suggested methods?

Personally, I think an online store where people can order whatever upgrade cards they need would be the best. One where the prices are high enough for it to make it worthwhile for them to ship out cards, but not as high as the ridiculously gougey eBay prices we have now.

... might work, but since we'd be looking at print on demand and need to cover development costs+licensing fees, we're talking 5 per card plus shipping. I think I'd prefer to buy expansion in most cases.

I know that seems extreme, but printing in small quantities is crazy expensive before all those other things get factored in.

Ungh. Keep double posting on mobile devices.

I don't understand some of the subjective disagreements. They are just that, subjective opinions! Just because there are worse business models doesn't make all of the others fantastic and without flaw. Just because you're not obligated to purchase shiny new toys doesn't mean that they are trying to maximize their profits to the razors edge and alienating the very fans they are hoping to keep (p.s. this does happen).

The fact is the truth may encompass a little of many of these ideas.

Of course there needs to be profit for a company to stay in business. And of course the designers need to make so much per release to justify the release. On the other hand maybe releasing an upgrade deck or damage deck will most likely somewhat reduce the sale of some expansions.

But will it bankrupt them or make the next wave not viable? People are making such bold assumptions. No matter what material value there is in the Raider there is zero for the individual that doesn't want it and it is very costly if the only thing wanted was the Tie Advanced title cards. Do I think FFG would be out of business if they had included 8 titles and another 8 Auto-Thrusters even though there isn't an included model that could use it? No I don't. Maybe it might have slowed sales of the Star Viper but I personally (read IMHO) doubt it would be to the point of ruin for the Star Viper. Who knows? Hopefully FFG's marketing experts. I certainly don't.

The point is unless FFG is walking a razors edge of profitability in their best selling game there is most likely some play (wiggle room) in their business model. I don't think including Auto-Thrusters with Star Vipers and TIE Advance title with the Raider is f'ing the consumer by a long shot; I'll go further as say that this feels a little insulting to them. Especially since they do seem to take the fans opinions into account. Nevertheless at the same time an upgrade pack of cards would be welcomed by the fan base. Would that impact Raider, Star Viper and other sales? Mostly likely. Would that push them over the edge of profitability? I certainly hope this game isn't teetering on the break-even point for them.

I like FFG and most of their products and as much as Fantasy Flight appears to appreciate their fans maybe they could love us just a wee bit more. As I said I feel that it 'ain't screwing anyone' to include Auto-Thrusters with the Star Viper; shame on those that so. But maybe it isn't as friendly as they could be either. See every may be partially right. Like I said, I'm not privy to their books so I don't know what is possible for them and what isn't.

Why wish list:

• Damage Deck
• Upgrade Pack
• Non-combatant models/figures
• Asteroids and asteroid base
• Book of scenarios

See! I'll most likely be buying with or without an upgrade pack of cards. But I'd be just a fair bit happier if I could get a pack of upgrades. I wouldn't even complain that now I have too many whatever cards

Just my two cents.

If you give me a penny for my thoughts and I give you my two cents who keeps the change?

I've been reading this thread since it started and to be honest I'm a little surprised that people feel that FFG are somehow ripping them off purely because they are following a particular 'business model'. As others have mentioned already, if you don't want to buy an expansion purely to get a certain upgrade card then don't buy that expansion. If you feel that you're being ripped off and that the game is not worthwhile investing in then don't invest. FFG have stated they won't release upgrade card packs and this is purely a business decision. Whilst large number of people are prepared to buy expansions, often in large numbers or spend money on Epic ships just for the upgrades they, as a company, would be mad to go back on that decision.

In terms of people feeling that FFG are ripping them off/not listening/moving into Wargames Workshop territory let me just point out that two weeks ago I emailed them to tell them that the peg connector on my Firespray had splintered. Three days ago I received a brand new Firespray. And I live in the UK, so they had also paid for the international postage. That is not the action of a company that is trying to rip you off. FFG are a company in the business if making money, the difference between them and other games companies is that they do listen. But they also want to profit from the game after all!

FFG is on a pretty tight financial line. Not necessarily in profits terms, but their licensed games need to be pretty profitable for them to keep the license. I'm sure FFG had to fight tooth and nail to get the rights for Star Wars, and there are definitely dozens of companies who'd love to have it instead if Disney doesn't think FFG's Star Wars products are profitable enough.

This thread.......

You know why GW keeps getting mentioned in this thread?

It's because people like me, who after 20 years have finally cut ties with them and found this game, find it a bit upsetting to see people claiming FFG is "screwing" the customer base.

Its like getting out of a long abusive relationship, going to a coffee morning, and hearing someone complaining about how their partner doesn't do the dishes.....

Forgive the ridiculous analogy.

The point is unless FFG is walking a razors edge of profitability in their best selling game there is most likely some play (wiggle room) in their business model. I don't think including Auto-Thrusters with Star Vipers and TIE Advance title with the Raider is f'ing the consumer by a long shot; I'll go further as say that this feels a little insulting to them. Especially since they do seem to take the fans opinions into account. Nevertheless at the same time an upgrade pack of cards would be welcomed by the fan base. Would that impact Raider, Star Viper and other sales? Mostly likely. Would that push them over the edge of profitability? I certainly hope this game isn't teetering on the break-even point for them.

FFG has said that card packs are not financially feasable. The fact of the matter is, they are going to listen to their own research to random player's opinions. We will never have the hard numbers. But, card packs clearly do not fit their goals.

As for their margins, we know that they have different margins on different products. We know that the core has a very thin margin. Peterson even confimed that the Falcon also has a thin margin. Hell, if the Falcon was released now, I would be shocked if it wasn't a $40 pack. They are betting those small margins on larger margins on other products. And without the numbers, it seems a little bit naive to just say "oh, they will be fine to take a little less off of this one product".

I will admit, I originally had some skepticism over the price of this game. But, not any longer. I have grown to love the models. I don't generally plan purchases by cards, I buy the pretty models that I want.

If you think you're being screwed over by FFG then stop buying their stuff.

OR, I could instead keep complaining in the hopes that one day, the game that I really enjoy playing will ALSO not keep trying to **** me over financially. Instead of just assuming that if one aspect of a game is bad, it's always going to be bad and can never get any better.

I'm sorry it bothers you that, when handed a delicious omelette with a steaming turd on the side, I ask if I could maybe replace the turd with some nice hashbrowns instead of just smiling and gratefully eating my omelette/turd combo.

If you think FFG is screwing you, you really, really, really need to rethink this hobby.

FFG is deliberately offering a product in an inconvenient and more expensive way, in order to increase their profit margin.

That is screwing people.

It's not a big screw over. We're not talking big pharma that charges hundreds of thousands of dollars for medicine or companies like Nestle with their truly despicable business practices.

But let's not also pretend that FFG is doing everything they can to provide a service people want, in the way they want it.

The conversations here always seem to go like this:

"Oh man, it looks like someone stole my car!"

"Oh yeah, well you really need to stop complaining. Someone broke into my house. By comparison, your situation is nothing!"

Yes, other companies do things wore than FFG. That doesn't mean that people don't have a legitimate reason to complain about how FFG bundles their cards and ships. It's ****, and people are allowed to complain about **** things.

What if ffg was to release an annual "tournament pack" (i knowim barrowing the term from yugioh) they could do say the t4 from worlds all ships and upgrades from those lists

Not an easy proposition. Trading Card games have predictable production costs for tournament winners. Miniature games don't (Compare 2 B-wings and 2 X-wings to 8 Tie Fighters to 3 Z-95s and a Falcon- The last 3 Worlds winning lists). Demand is also highly variable- An 8 tie Swarm isn't going to be in high demand, but a cheaper source of 3PO and R2-D2 might be.

If you think you're being screwed over by FFG then stop buying their stuff.

OR, I could instead keep complaining in the hopes that one day, the game that I really enjoy playing will ALSO not keep trying to **** me over financially. Instead of just assuming that if one aspect of a game is bad, it's always going to be bad and can never get any better.

I'm sorry it bothers you that, when handed a delicious omelette with a steaming turd on the side, I ask if I could maybe replace the turd with some nice hashbrowns instead of just smiling and gratefully eating my omelette/turd combo.

Alright, let's try this a slightly different way. Would you acknowledge FFG would lose money if they changed their distribution model? I certainly think it would since there would be less incentive to buy new ships (FFG's business model seems to rely on a circular buying pattern, so that's a huge problem)? Okay, now the executives at Disney see that their share of the profits from X-wing have dropped. When they inquire, what if they don't like the response (Prediction: They wouldn't, because Disney's merchandising team is ruthless)? FFG loses the license. FFG is out a huge amount of money, meaning cutbacks and people left without a job, while we don't get x-wing anymore and the license might go to someone who doesn't care about making a good game.

If you think FFG is screwing you, you really, really, really need to rethink this hobby.

FFG is deliberately offering a product in an inconvenient and more expensive way, in order to increase their profit margin.

That is screwing people.

Companies either need to sell more product to the same people or sell new products to the same people to stay in business. Given the size of the miniature wargaming market, FFG needs to do the latter. Designing their product in a way that encourages people to buy more stuff is not screwing people unless what they charge is grossly out of proportion compared to production costs, or you literally can't use things without buying everything. Well, there's a bit more wiggle room than that, but you get my point (hopefully).

Unfortunately, given that FFG is privately held, I have no idea what their profit margin is or how to find out. Given that whether or not they are "screwing people" depends almost entirely that, I don't see how we can have much more in the way of a reasonable discussion, so this'll probably be my last post here.